View Full Version : Fortress Britain
gettin2dizzy
15-11-07, 10:24 AM
The Labour 'Regime' has announced plans for 'Fortress Britain', a policy aimed on tightening security throughout Britain. This may be of particular interest to anyone who chooses not to watch 'I'm a celebrity...'...
The plans unveiled are to introduce scanning machines at 250 railways stations to scan bags for bombs; it does seem like a somewhat absurd measure as anyone planning a bombing could choose to board at any of the other 2000+ stations in Britain. I know these extremeists are lunatics but they are pretty effective at blowing things up I have to admit and I don't doubt it would take them long to figure out this loophole. I'll be happy for a 'check in time' to be included in my rail travel, and to pay for the whole process yes; the train network have been too quick and cheap for many years already, cheeky devils.
Gordon doesn't stop his deluded castle plans here, he also plans on tightening air travel to the point that he may aswell insist on travellers carry a 'Assport': a passport firmly shoved up your rectum -his proposals are so invasive:
travellers may also have to provide up to 53 separate pieces of information, including their e-mail, billing address, and contact numbers, to the Home Office under the electronic borders scheme.
53 pieces of information?! I filled in less paperwork to clear for arms manufacture! But if this increases our saftey on Britain I suppose it's priceless.... well almost, there's a small £1.3 billion initial cost. Gordon hasn't stated whether he'll be contributing to this yet. If only he read this forum so he could answer? but we all know that motorbikes are as welcome in London as Brazilians so I doubt it.
So with Britain safe Gordons now turned his hand to preventing terrorism from it's birth. He's kindly spending £400 million overseas educating students about Islam and even setting up a European Centre for Excellence for Islamic Studies. You have to wonder which rich Muslim helped Gordon with this desicion, after all for him to be stood intimately close to Gordons backside surely is a sin punishible by stoning to death under Shariah law.
Is this a serious proposal? We're being told to sacrifice our freedom and even at our financial expense? As long as we accept fundamentalists beliefs we will have terrorism, end of.
Okay, I see what you're saying here in the first bit, but the racist claptrap at the end undermines your argument. Islam is not a fundamentalist religion. It is a religion that has fundamentalists in it, in the same way as Christianity or any of the other religions. In my opinion the best way to stop terrorism is not to demonise and therefore radicalise a whole generation of one of the largest religions on the planet, but to try to work with them to try to come to some form of compromise.
gettin2dizzy
15-11-07, 11:58 AM
Okay, I see what you're saying here in the first bit, but the racist claptrap at the end undermines your argument. Islam is not a fundamentalist religion. It is a religion that has fundamentalists in it, in the same way as Christianity or any of the other religions. In my opinion the best way to stop terrorism is not to demonise and therefore radicalise a whole generation of one of the largest religions on the planet, but to try to work with them to try to come to some form of compromise.
It's the extremeists that are doing this. Britain has been more than accomodating towards their beliefs.
Islam is a fundamentalist religion entirely. You can not be of Muslim belief and live a non-muslim lifestlye, try that in the Middle East and you won't live another day.
It's the extremeists that are doing this. Britain has been more than accomodating towards their beliefs.
That's not why extremists are erm, extreme. It's more because of what happens in other countries, ie, our foreign policy. Some people say extremeists are brainwashed, but that's debatable really (who has proven that to be the case?).
Back to the point of the thread:
About the train station's, they have to start somewhere, surely? The scanning machines are expensive, so you can't expect a roll-out to every station immediately. I wouldn't expect a perfect solution straight away, but one to build on is better than nothing at all.
As for the costs at train stations, I haven't used a train in years, so I couldn't care.
About the electronic borders scheme, that's simple. There is talk of implementing a bio-metric style passport, so the information could easily be contained within there. Until that's implemented, a USB Flash drive doesn't take up much space in your luggage, and that could be handed to customs "Here you go, everything you need to know is on this, just plug it in & away you go."
Sorry, but where's the problem with all of this? The only problem I can see is that as a tax payer, it will be us that pay for it all.
But then, if it will help (not gurantee) secure safety for my kids, the price is always going to be negotiable.
gettin2dizzy
15-11-07, 12:06 PM
About the train station's, they have to start somewhere, surely? The scanning machines are expensive, so you can't expect a roll-out to every station immediately. I wouldn't expect a perfect solution straight away, but one to build on is better than nothing at all.
As for the costs at train stations, I haven't used a train in years, so I couldn't care.
About the electronic borders scheme, that's simple. There is talk of implementing a bio-metric style passport, so the information could easily be contained within there. Until that's implemented, a USB Flash drive doesn't take up much space in your luggage, and that could be handed to customs "Here you go, everything you need to know is on this, just plug it in & away you go."
Sorry, but where's the problem with all of this? The only problem I can see is that as a tax payer, it will be us that pay for it all.
But then, if it will help (not gurantee) secure safety for my kids, the price is always going to be negotiable.
Passports already have RFID in them! They were quiet about that one ;)
The amount of information required is the type of information they'd look for if they were checking you out, reading you emails, checking your phone records. It's big brother gone mad for no obvious benefit. £2 billion could be spent so wisely in our country, or perhaps take the burden off the low earners.
Passports already have RFID in them! They were quiet about that one ;)
RFID is not enough to store the required information, and I for one, would complain under the Data Protection Act if all the information required was to be held in one central place, with the RFID tag being a key to search the DB on.
I can also gurantee that my passport doesn't have RFID, it's a couple of years old, and I used to work with RFID scanners quite a lot, if there was anything there, it'd of shown up & I'd of thought it odd to say the least.
gettin2dizzy
15-11-07, 12:11 PM
They're not hidden at all, there's a whole page with one one under clear plastic. They've even been cracked
http://www.bzangygroink.co.uk/wordpress/archives/2006/11/18/uk-passport-rfid-chips-cracked/
They're not hidden at all, there's a whole page with one one under clear plastic. They're definately in use - I'll take a photo of it at some point
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it's not in use (I know it is). I said my passport doesn't have any RFID chips. Like I said, it's old (due for renewal next year probably).
That doesn't change the fact that RFID chips could not contain all the information, there's simply not enough storage space. Add a couple more pages, and perhaps. A better way to do it would be a SIM like chip, which can hold far more information, but requires electronic contact. Maybe this combined with RFID.
Biker Biggles
15-11-07, 12:22 PM
I dont believe all this high tech surveillance will help prevent terrorism at all.It might help to discover who did it after the event,but suicide bombers wont care about that.What is needed is good old fashioned intelligence work,meticulous analysis and infiltration of the enemy,just like the methods used to undermine the IRA.
General surveillance technology is just an excuse to dominate the wider population,the vast majority of whom are no more likely to be terrorists than Sir Ian Blair.
licoricepizza
15-11-07, 12:58 PM
Why is it that the British poulation requires all the identification when in so many cases the terrorism invoves foreign nationals? Are we going to insist that every Tom, **** and Mohammed produces 53 seperate pieces of information? They have ID cards in Spain, it didn't stop the Madrid bombing.
Edit: The **** got rid of a name, how funny.
licoricepizza
15-11-07, 01:02 PM
Okay, I see what you're saying here in the first bit, but the racist claptrap at the end undermines your argument. Islam is not a fundamentalist religion. It is a religion that has fundamentalists in it, in the same way as Christianity or any of the other religions. In my opinion the best way to stop terrorism is not to demonise and therefore radicalise a whole generation of one of the largest religions on the planet, but to try to work with them to try to come to some form of compromise.
Not really wanting to go down this road, but would like to make the point that if I came to your house and I disliked your wallpaper, I could still respect you as a person but have none for your taste. Why then must I respect a belief? I still respect the individual.
I think we can all agree that no matter how much of this technology we employ to supposedly protect ourselves, you will not stop this terroism as you cant kill an Idea or fundamental belief. The main reason for all this is western interference in middle eastern affairs and not forgetting our backing of Israel. until we address this issue we will not solve the problem.
It is a real irony that the supposed free west is protecting the free west by taking away our freedom !
Jester666
15-11-07, 01:35 PM
We're being told to sacrifice our freedom and even at our financial expense? As long as we accept fundamentalists beliefs we will have terrorism, end of.
Isn't that an extremist view?
It's the extremeists that are doing this. Britain has been more than accomodating towards their beliefs.
Islam is a fundamentalist religion entirely. You can not be of Muslim belief and live a non-muslim lifestlye, try that in the Middle East and you won't live another day.
Sweeping generalisation! There are extremists in Christianity as well but I hear no mention about them.
Once again a thread seems to descend to Muslim Bashing. Its not acceptable.
Islam is not the problem. Its a few people within the religion who are the problem. Just like its a few people in any organisation that can be a problem.
Extra security checks are a fact of life now. We just have to deal with it. How many years have we had the steel curtain in London for? Anyone complaining about it? Not any more, we got used to it just as we'll get used to the hightened security.
Sweeping generalisation! There are extremists in Christianity as well but I hear no mention about them.
.thats because they dont go blowing people up
gettin2dizzy
15-11-07, 01:43 PM
To be a fundamentalist you have to believe in the fundamentals of a religion, ie believeing the word of the Koran and acting on it. Not only do Muslims fundamentally believe the Koran, but Shariah law enforces it. I don't see how that can not be a fundamentalist religion.
Jester666
15-11-07, 01:45 PM
Hovis quote: thats because they dont go blowing people up
Oklahoma? George 'Dubbya' Bush?
Jester666
15-11-07, 01:47 PM
Do all Christians believe and act on what is in the Bible?
gettin2dizzy
15-11-07, 01:48 PM
Hovis quote: thats because they dont go blowing people up
Oklahoma? George 'Dubbya' Bush?
hehe. But God spoke to him and told him it was the right thing to do! ;)
Blair had the same thing.... :smt104
Jester666
15-11-07, 01:51 PM
hehe. But God spoke to him and told him it was the right thing to do! ;)
Blair had the same thing.... :smt104
Both of 'em are loonies!! :D
gettin2dizzy
15-11-07, 01:52 PM
Do all Christians believe and act on what is in the Bible?
Very good question. No they don't, but most Christians don't understand what their religion means. Islam is much much stricter in that matter and the Koran is deemed as Gods word not to be questioned.
Flamin_Squirrel
15-11-07, 01:54 PM
Extra security checks are a fact of life now. We just have to deal with it. How many years have we had the steel curtain in London for? Anyone complaining about it? Not any more, we got used to it just as we'll get used to the hightened security.
That's what the government is counting on, it's called conditioning, but that certainly doesn't make it right.
Quite frankly, I object to having large wadges of cash being routinely stolen from me by the government for them to spend on spying on me.
The government don't even know, asside from their own shamless desire to control us to the nth degree, why all this spying and security is necesary. They were following the 7/7 bombers and still failed to stop them. They want to increase detention too, yet as I understand no-ones yet been held up to the 28 day limit. What's the point?
Other than new and exciting ways to blow a few billion quid, what's any of this actually supposed to achieve? They're too incompetant to impliment their existing powers when necessary, and abuse their powers when they aren't.
Jester666
15-11-07, 01:54 PM
And the Old Testament is...?
licoricepizza
15-11-07, 02:06 PM
George W Bush: http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2005/10_october/06/bush.shtml
Our foreign policy is to blame, but religion and belief plays a role in that policy. George W Bush is a United Methodist and talked to god (see the link above). Tony Blair prayed about his decision to go to war, is prepared to be judged by god and is allegedly converting to Catholicism. Is it right to have people in such powerful positions with such strong beliefs? I don't think so, religion and politics should be kept entirely separate.
If I talk to god I'm praying, if he talks to me, I'm crazy.
Jester666
15-11-07, 02:07 PM
If I talk to god I'm praying, if he talks to me, I'm crazy.
Very true!! :D
And the Old Testament is...?
Fiction
;)
licoricepizza
15-11-07, 02:09 PM
To be a fundamentalist you have to believe in the fundamentals of a religion, ie believeing the word of the Koran and acting on it. Not only do Muslims fundamentally believe the Koran, but Shariah law enforces it. I don't see how that can not be a fundamentalist religion.
How do you solve a problem like Sharia?
Jester666
15-11-07, 02:09 PM
Fiction
;)
Thanks!! :thumbsup: But people still believe it!?
How do you solve a problem like Sharia?
PMSL.
Sat at home with the lurgy feeling totally pants, and that has really made me laugh:D
Pedrosa
15-11-07, 02:11 PM
But rather than criticising suggestions being made, or methods in place already, does no one have a potentially workable option other than the...
"it's the government intervening again blah,blah vitriol?":confused:
gettin2dizzy
15-11-07, 02:20 PM
And the Old Testament is...?
That's why I find it funny that Christians hold such strong beliefs with no idea what this old book of twaddle actually says! Well done to Islam for enforcing education about your religion! I mean that! :D
As for a solution ? I don't think we can allow religions which cannot integrate with society to operate in this country at all. The fundamentalist nature and barbaric texts do not comply with the modern world. In this country you are free, that differs from free to force your religious views on to others (I am aware of the irony here ;))
Flamin_Squirrel
15-11-07, 02:28 PM
But rather than criticising suggestions being made, or methods in place already, does no one have a potentially workable option other than the...
"it's the government intervening again blah,blah vitriol?":confused:
I think the point is that there is no solution - hence why people take exception to being spyed on by the government, especially when we're being charged a fortune for the privilage.
That said, stop beating the crap out of the middle east wouldn't be a bad place to start.
I think the point is that there is no solution - hence why people take exception to being spyed on by the government, especially when we're being charged a fortune for the privilage.
That said, stop beating the crap out of the middle east wouldn't be a bad place to start.
i know we should have just dropped the bomb it would have been cheaper and stopped the Americans using us for target practice
Pedrosa
15-11-07, 02:39 PM
I think the point is that there is no solution - hence why people take exception to being spyed on by the government, especially when we're being charged a fortune for the privilage.
That said, stop beating the crap out of the middle east wouldn't be a bad place to start.
FS...Your reply dissapoints me to be honest. I was thinking that maybe you had quite clear alternatives in mind? Your response hints at no more than perhaps exasperation and outrage only?
(My reply is not aimed at goading you at all.)
what we should do is give the suicide bombers a safe place to do it like a big field and open days where you could go and pay to watch, its not there fault they believe every word that is said to them but we could kill a few birds with one stone here, and make some money in the process
gettin2dizzy
15-11-07, 02:49 PM
what we should do is give the suicide bombers a safe place to do it like a big field and open days where you could go and pay to watch, its not there fault they believe every word that is said to them but we could kill a few birds with one stone here, and make some money in the process
hahahaha!
That's a brilliant idea!
licoricepizza
15-11-07, 02:53 PM
Again, with the utmost respect to those who died and their families (and of course the 700+ who were injured)...
As 56 people died in the July 7th bombings, over two years ago, I'd say the terrorist threat is negligible if you consider there are about 60 million people in the UK. That is literally a one-in-a-million chance of being killed by a terrorist, I fancy my chances. My objection is that my freedom is being restricted for no good reason, my liberties and privacy removed for essentially a myth. I bet one in a million horses born has a horn on it's forehead, doesn't mean it's a unicorn. OK, maybe not. I would like to see how an ID card will protect me again a terrorist bomb, just how big are they, and what are they made of? Why do you need my email address if I'm travelling? Is it to judge how much Viagra I've been offered to assess the danger of a mid-flight stonker that may endanger the lives of others?
What can be done is to apply pressure to muslim communities in order to get them to identify the extreme minority within, rather than our current policy of making excuses for a particularly vocal minority. You hear clerics praising the martyrs and we do nothing, we have women routinely killed for dishonouring families and we do nothing, saying that, the muslim community is fairly quiet about that issue too. We don't ask muslims to deal with the BNP, we do that, and quite rightly. It's time to stop walking on eggshells and start making the muslim communities acknowledge that, however you look at it, the problem is more closely related to them and is more their responsibility, than it is people of other faiths, or no faith at all. If you stand too close to fan that the sh*t's getting thrown at, it's going to splat on you a bit too.
i wouldnt blow myself up no matter how many virgins, i dont know where i heard this but someone once said virgins look great on paper but if you think about it they all be screaming and wanting to be bought icecreams
Again, with the utmost respect to those who died and their families (and of course the 700+ who were injured)...
As 56 people died in the July 7th bombings, over two years ago, I'd say the terrorist threat is negligible if you consider there are about 60 million people in the UK. That is literally a one-in-a-million chance of being killed by a terrorist, I fancy my chances. My objection is that my freedom is being restricted for no good reason, my liberties and privacy removed for essentially a myth. I bet one in a million horses born has a horn on it's forehead, doesn't mean it's a unicorn. OK, maybe not. I would like to see how an ID card will protect me again a terrorist bomb, just how big are they, and what are they made of? Why do you need my email address if I'm traveling? Is it to judge how much Viagra I've been offered to assess the danger of a mid-flight stonker that may endanger the lives of others?
What can be done is to apply pressure to muslim communities in order to get them to identify the extreme minority within, rather than our current policy of making excuses for a particularly vocal minority. You hear clerics praising the martyrs and we do nothing, we have women routinely killed for dishonouring families and we do nothing, saying that, the muslim community is fairly quiet about that issue too. We don't ask muslims to deal with the BNP, we do that, and quite rightly. It's time to stop walking on eggshells and start making the muslim communities acknowledge that, however you look at it, the problem is more closely related to them and is more their responsibility, than it is people of other faiths, or no faith at all. If you stand too close to fan that the sh*t's getting thrown at, it's going to splat on you a bit too.
i live within 100metres of were there has been terrorist activity and know a lot of muslims and i dont believe for a second that there is a minority they all want bush dead dont forget about rushty life isnt important in the east thats why so many are escaping, our ethics are different and we believe that not to follow is a good thing you know to make your own mind up and seek out the good from the bad, i guess what im tring to say is not so many of us have blind faith like we had in medievil times its just through civilization weve become more talerent towards each other, and we're not so easerly offended we are more secure in ourselves otherwise we be burning dolls n flags too
Flamin_Squirrel
15-11-07, 04:38 PM
FS...Your reply dissapoints me to be honest. I was thinking that maybe you had quite clear alternatives in mind? Your response hints at no more than perhaps exasperation and outrage only?
(My reply is not aimed at goading you at all.)
It's not that I don't think there are alternatives, I just don't think that there's a particular problem that needs solving. See pizzas post, I share his views :smile:
northwind
15-11-07, 08:29 PM
To be a fundamentalist you have to believe in the fundamentals of a religion, ie believeing the word of the Koran and acting on it. Not only do Muslims fundamentally believe the Koran, but Shariah law enforces it. I don't see how that can not be a fundamentalist religion.
This I don't agree with at all, and to be honest I think it's a common misunderstanding of how sharia, and muslim practice of beliefs in general, operates. Fundamentalism generally means not just believing in the fundamentals of a religion, but rejecting all else. It's odd, because the people we call fundamentalist muslims generally aren't fundamentalist at all, they're intensely revisionist. The Qur'an and Sunnah are essentially a basic, immutable code, but most of what we see in the western perception of sharia isn't directly derived from the Qur'an. A fundamentalist by rights should reject the fiqh and hadith, but none do, since they use the hadith in particular to support their arguments.
The most fundamentalist muslim organisation in the world right now is probably muslim feminism, since one of the main weapons they have is using the Qur'an to overcome the subsequent fiqh and hadith that have grown against them, and cutting back through translation and corruption to older meanings. Arranged marriage is forbidden in the Qur'an, for example, and the "sharia" dress codes are almost entirely from hadith.
On the other hand, the Taliban aren't Qur'anic fundamentalists at all, if anything they disregard swathes of the Qur'an to serve their ends.
yorkie_chris
15-11-07, 10:25 PM
Why do you need my email address if I'm travelling? Is it to judge how much Viagra I've been offered to assess the danger of a mid-flight stonker that may endanger the lives of others?
I wouldnt want to end up sat in front of u.
On a brighter note, will the reduction in crude oil production lead to major upheaval in society?
i don't reckon it will Chris but if the prices go up much further we may end up like mad max stealing fuel and killing over it,
on a terrorist note though if you as a society have no self control ie having to cover up all women so you don't rape them and not allowing any men to talk to your wife incase she goes off with them then the future looks pretty bleak i find the lack of self control and the lack of consideration disgusting and i can see why if you've come from a country with many strict rules why you'd come here cos were a push over
yorkie_chris
16-11-07, 12:41 PM
Mad max eh.
Guess I'll put some steelie bits on me jacket then :p
ThEGr33k
16-11-07, 03:26 PM
That's not why extremists are erm, extreme. It's more because of what happens in other countries, ie, our foreign policy. Some people say extremeists are brainwashed, but that's debatable really (who has proven that to be the case?).
Id just like to point out that IMO all Religion is bo||Ox and so on that point anyone that believes other wise to me is brainwashed! You tell a child that santa is real... he believes you until he grows out of it... religion is like this but they just dont grow out of it. The reason some dont is because they are getting it shived down their throstd constantly and like the comfort they get from a greater being, others are afraid not to believe incase god (the religions leaders) punish them for not following gods (religious leaders) word. Lets face it religion is a form of control... look at the birth of the catholic church! It was to keep people in the roman Empire in line!
What has always interested me is what makes say Christianity right and say the Gr33k gods wrong?
Muslims think that we whites are the scum of the earth, a lower class to their women which as you know are 2nd class. So where are we?
So when these children grow up being brain washed that anyone who kill infidels in the name of god will go to heaven and taste lots of virgins why would they not believe it? It might sound silly to me and a lot of you... This sort of thing cannot be fixxed unless we stop all religion! Some religions are just blood thirsty, when have muslims seen peace, i ask you?
So tbh all this is rubbish they are planning to do, they are chasing nonsence! The best way to fix this is to teach science and try to bring people to beleive in science and not science fiction (religion).
northwind
16-11-07, 09:17 PM
Muslims think that we whites are the scum of the earth, a lower class to their women which as you know are 2nd class. So where are we?
"And mankind is naught but a single nation". "O Mankind, we created you from a single pair of a male and a female, and made you in to tribes and nations so that you may know each other not that you despise each other." The Qur'an doesn't generally support racism on grounds of ethnicity, being a middle eastern religion it formed in a place where ethnicity mixed wildly.
You're drawing a line here, muslims = non-caucasian, and sorry but it's rubbish. There's 200000 white muslims in britain, do they beat themselves up at bus stops? The Balkans, Turkey and Russia have huge white muslim populations. Dar al-islam's always contained caucasians, as well as every other race you can think of. The 5 countries with the biggest muslim population aren't even arab. Of course, that doesn't mean that there's not a lot of racist muslims out there, it's as open to hypocrisy as all the other religions. Possibly more so. And like most religions it makes a great blunt instrument to stir up a crowd.
"women as you know are second class". The trouble is, it's too easy to view Islam as a middle-eastern/arabic religion, and there's no denying that in most states with a muslim majority you do find total misogyny. But in Saudi Arabia, the institutionalised sexism which forces women into a lower class originates with the monarchy, not from religion (though of course they use religion to back up their position, because it's such an easy tool) In Egypt, the legal status of women is mainly set from French law at the time of colonisation. Trouble is, these are countries with mainly muslim populations, but they're not really islamic countries, yet we make judgements on muslims based on their conduct. Sort of like judging socialism by the actions of Stalin.
I'm not a muslim in case you're wondering, I find the whole concept of religion weird and difficult to understand, but it interests me.
Incidentally, non-arab muslims outnumber arabic ones massively, when we think of Islam right now we often think of Saudi Arabia or Iran, arabic nations basically, but they account for only 12% of the world's muslims.
ThEGr33k
17-11-07, 12:12 AM
Ok maybe im wrong... Get back in the garage! :p
So why are we infidels? :smt108 I mean they arnt by the muslim law call christians and jews infidels yet they seem to be...
So from what you are saying i guess its only the extemests that use their religion as a shield of reason for their terrorest ways?
A bit off subject here but... I also hear that the muslim leaders put to the government that Britain should be a muslim state due to there being more number attend mosques then Churches. It got into the lords where im guessing it got thrown out. Anyone heard anything like this?
A lot of what i think i know might well be rubbish properganda so any clarification is helpful.
northwind
17-11-07, 12:54 AM
Oh yeah, we're definately infidels. Or if you're a practicing christian or jew, and possibly zoroastrian, you're one of the "People of the Book" who get kind of tolerated as comedy failed muslims. Though I don't think that's how the prophet worded it. Islam's interesting because it basically entered a mature market, it's built to be aggressive towards nonbelievers without angering christians and jews, and to coexist with other stronger peoples (since at the time of the hejira, angering the existing authorities would have seen mohammed's head on a stick). It's a very strong product, nice bit of work all round.
ThEGr33k
17-11-07, 01:04 AM
Nice is one way of putting it... probably not how i would put it!
So basically all muslims think we are infidels? So basically if they get into power we are screwed, there goes free thought and democracy?
northwind
17-11-07, 02:01 AM
Well, infidel just means "one without faith"... There's a lot of stuff in the Qu'ran and hadith which bodes no good for us though :smt045 but to be fair, a lot of the passages you see quoted are out of context. Frinstance, the one that always gets used is "slay them wherever you find them" but the full context is this:
"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors. And slay them wherever ye find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith. But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevails justice and faith in God; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression"
Which is obviously completely different- fight those who fight you, take back what they take, but if they stop, then they should be forgiven.
Another favourite:
"When ye encounter the Infidels, strike off their heads till ye have made a great slaughter among them and the rest make fast the fetters."
Or at least, that's the translation that gets used. But the next line is
"and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens." But the context is a speech made to troops on campaign- suggesting it applies universally to all infidels is like saying Winston Churchill wants us to batter any Germans we find on the beach on holiday. So, in the context of the sura, it's not "kill or take prisoner all infidels", it's "when we meet these infidels in battle, kill them till they run, then take prisoners." Which is pretty much a definition of a modern battle. Maybe worth mentioning that this was the 7th century, when it was pretty common to slaughter survivors rather than giving them grace.
But of course, it's not all like that, just to give you an idea of the games they play. Anti-muslim commentators will use out of context quotes, islamic apologists will use the misquotes but ignore the bits that actually do advocate holy war. And then you get into the supporting texts, the Hadith and fiqh, which are sort of like legal precedent- since islam's a religion built 1300 years ago there's been a lot of time to build up precedents and analogies, and for imams to interpret the word, and for translations to contradict other translations... So, it's never that simple. And at the end of the day, it's a religion for an older time with constant strife, some of it is bound to be irrelevant for today.
If you actually read the thing- I've read a few bits- each sura's a total ramble, you can't drop snappy quotes like you sometimes can with the bible- each passage is more like a speech, to be taken whole. The famous Verse of the Sword, which is probably the hardest "Kill thegr33k and Northwind" passage to ignore, is a good example, because you only find out by reading the whole thing who is actually being referred to as "the pagans". A casual reading suggests it's every nonbeliever, dig a little deeper and find the context and it's totally different.
ThEGr33k
17-11-07, 07:44 AM
That is quite scary because basiacally if you try to control them through law they can effectivly scare the rulers out of it by saying they are opressing muslims which would advocate a Holy war... Oh dear. Will this religion effectivly bring another world war?
Im probably being a pessamist, but i honestly thought we had grown out of myth and religion, with it now being for the people who needed the support that beleiving in God/fate can give you... knowing that if it all goes bad it isnt your fault.
I guess we can only hope that the muslims comming into the country become more like us where politics first religion 52nd...
Time will tell but im not holding much hope! :roll:
northwind
17-11-07, 02:30 PM
That is quite scary because basiacally if you try to control them through law they can effectivly scare the rulers out of it by saying they are opressing muslims which would advocate a Holy war... Oh dear. Will this religion effectivly bring another world war?
No idea... The real scary thing is the power that religious leaders can have, that's not just an islamic thing of course, but it's enough just to say that something's evil and you can raise a mob. Bit harder to take over the world on that basis... So, not a world war as we know it I think, more massive civil unrest.
But then, maybe we really are going to end up encouraging it... We're not far off supporting a dictator in Pakistan to keep democratically elected Muslims out, and we're probably drifting towards genuinely oppressing muslims in the UK. And half of what the public believes is based on misinformation or misunderstanding anyway, so where's the basis for an understanding? Hell, half of what an awful lot of muslims believe is based on misinformation or misunderstanding.
I dunno, I've just read bits of the book out of irritation, I'm no sociologist.
No idea... The real scary thing is the power that religious leaders can have, that's not just an islamic thing of course, but it's enough just to say that something's evil and you can raise a mob. Bit harder to take over the world on that basis... So, not a world war as we know it I think, more massive civil unrest.
But then, maybe we really are going to end up encouraging it... We're not far off supporting a dictator in Pakistan to keep democratically elected Muslims out, and we're probably drifting toward genuinely oppressing muslims in the UK. And half of what the public believes is based on misinformation or misunderstanding anyway, so where's the basis for an understanding? Hell, half of what an awful lot of muslims believe is based on misinformation or misunderstanding.
I dunno, I've just read bits of the book out of irritation, I'm no sociologist.
i take it you dont live round any muslims then they park on double yellas outside the mosque and the traffic wardens dont touch em its about time we had a fair society i live in a large muslim area and cant wait to see them made to abide by the laws if you cant see what there like dont comment please, i think we'll have a civil war with them before the government will be a bit harder on them, the amount of fly tipping and sh!tty nappies thrown onto the streets is a disgrace ive never know a more inconsiderate race, i have always been proud of my non prejudice views on skin colour but i have changed since living around asians
thats because they dont go blowing people up
Hovis quote: thats because they dont go blowing people up
Oklahoma? George 'Dubbya' Bush?
Lets not forget the folks at the IRA too eh?
The whole Muslim debate that's been thrust up in this thread, I've only really been friends with one Muslim. Don't get me wrong, I've known quite a few, but only ever been friends with one Muslim guy whilst I was at college. There's only one way I know how to describe him:
Whenever around other strict Muslims, he "respected" the faith, but he quite happily drunk alcohol & ate bacon infront of his fellow followers. When he wasn't with other Muslims, well, I remember an incident where he signed up to the British arm of the KKK using his real name, address & telephone number, purely because it was good for a giggle.
If I've met a Muslim like that, surely there must be others. Lets not generalise an entire faith eh? When we start doing that, we're no better than the terrorist organisors.
EDIT: Smudge, I've met you, you sound like a reasonable guy. For the people that park on double yellows outside the Mosque, do they block you getting past? Do they cause a danger to kids in the area? If so, the "proper" thing to do would be to write to the council to complain. If they don't act, take the beef up with Plod. Allowing a section of society to get away with breaking the laws because of faith is discrimination. However, I'd probably just let down random tyres whilst they're all inside. ;)
Or is the double yellow contravention more p**sing you off because they get away with it & you don't? TBH, I take my chances, and most of the time, I get away with parking on double yellows. But I only do it with the bike, and always park parallel to the kerb when I do it, so I'm not making an obstruction.
The fly tipping, again, report it. At least it'll get cleared up if you keep reporting it.
(P.S. Before the "you wouldn't do that because you've no idea what it's like" replys, someone tell me what faith the majority of the population of Dewsbury follows please - it's where I grew up. I clearly remember houses being petrol bombed when I was young, and for the most part, that had nothing to do with faith or race).
Lets not forget the folks at the IRA too eh?
The whole Muslim debate that's been thrust up in this thread, I've only really been friends with one Muslim. Don't get me wrong, I've known quite a few, but only ever been friends with one Muslim guy whilst I was at college. There's only one way I know how to describe him:
Whenever around other strict Muslims, he "respected" the faith, but he quite happily drunk alcohol & ate bacon in front of his fellow followers. When he wasn't with other Muslims, well, I remember an incident where he signed up to the British arm of the KKK using his real name, address & telephone number, purely because it was good for a giggle.
If I've met a Muslim like that, surely there must be others. Lets not generalize an entire faith eh? When we start doing that, we're no better than the terrorist organizers.
EDIT: Smudge, I've met you, you sound like a reasonable guy. For the people that park on double yellows outside the Mosque, do they block you getting past? Do they cause a danger to kids in the area? If so, the "proper" thing to do would be to write to the council to complain. If they don't act, take the beef up with Plod. Allowing a section of society to get away with breaking the laws because of faith is discrimination. However, I'd probably just let down random tyres whilst they're all inside. ;)
Or is the double yellow contravention more p**sing you off because they get away with it & you don't? TBH, I take my chances, and most of the time, I get away with parking on double yellows. But I only do it with the bike, and always park parallel to the kerb when I do it, so I'm not making an obstruction.
The fly tipping, again, report it. At least it'll get cleared up if you keep reporting it.
(P.S. Before the "you wouldn't do that because you've no idea what it's like" replys, someone tell me what faith the majority of the population of Dewsbury follows please - it's where I grew up. I clearly remember houses being petrol bombed when I was young, and for the most part, that had nothing to do with faith or race).
Baph i don't care about the parking its the way it crosses every boundary the council wont say anything or the plod as they would look like there being racist to ask them to abide by the law, thats why they have there own communities so they can do what they like, did you know my mate Altaf Patel his dad has lived in this country for 37 years and he still doesn't speak a word of English, they have kept there own laws and rules and have just come to feed off of our benefits system and that is nothing to do with there race or religion, why does every other person whose moved here from abroad live among us speak English and follow the laws of our country except muslims, they are so against any other beliefs it makes you wonder why they come west at all, please don't anyone start with the old politically correct anti racist non sense as its not about race or religion its about attitudes to others
northwind
19-11-07, 07:51 PM
i take it you dont live round any muslims then
I wouldn't usuallly do this, but, :rolleyes:. Aye I do, and always have, and by and large they've made better neighbours and friends than the bible-bashers down the road. But then, I wouldn't make assumptions of 1.6 muslims based on the few I've met. The most annoying immigrants I've ever met are northern irish protestants ;) Though that might just be the accent.
If your council is treating people differently from others, that's the fault of the council. Have you ever complained, or do you just blame the muslims who benefit?
You can find a huge number of non english speaking sikhs, buddhists, taoists and hindus in the UK... By no means a muslim trait. A lot of my old customers were chinese, mainly buddhist, and the older generations mostly had only the most basic english- please, thank you. Amazing how much you can say with those three words. Course, it's more obvious with muslims, mainly because there's loads of 'em. And also, maybe because people assume that all these asian immigrants are muslims- not pointing at you here btw.
This is a guess, but I reckon you'd find about the same proportion of non english speaking adults in other religious groups as you do with muslims, just that they're less numerous.
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