Oh dear!

[ljharmitt]

well if you've been reading my other thread bout the weird rattle u will know about this, well i started it up today to get it warm and then i heard a little noise and like a click, engine gone, wont start, has the chain come off? do i need a new engine? O SH'T lol HELP.... On my birthday aswell :(

[fizzwheel]

then i heard a little noise and like a click, engine gone, wont start,

I've read your other thread...

OK to me your symptoms above sound simiply lilke a flat battery. But...

1. Dont panic. Think calmly about whats going on and try and give more information.

2. Last time you started the bike was the rattle getting worse, or was it accompanied by knocking, clunking or smokey oily exhaust.

3. Have you checked the oil level, if so how much is in there now ?

4. Worse thing you can do is to keep stopping and starting the bike without riding it, If you're not going to ride the bike dont start the engine.

Did the bike run last time you used it, albeit with the rattle ? When was the last time you used it ? What have you do since the last time it started OK.

If this is happening :

Ignition on, with alarm disabled ( if you have one ) Clutch in and thumb the starter and all you get is a sequence of buzzes, clicks and whirrs then IMHO your battery is flat. How bright are the headlights, are the idiot lights on the dashboard lit ? What happens to the rev counter needle is it spinning round the dial whislt the clicking noise is happening ?

If it fires and runs and then sounds like a bag of spanners rattling around in a toolbox then I think you might have a more serious problem that I'm not qualified or knowledgeable to diagnose.

[ljharmitt]

its definately not battery cause had it dead before. I started the bike it was running with the knocking noise in the front cylinder, went to give a lil rev, heard *clank* bike died, sounds like somethings jammed, wont start now. not the sound of a dead battery i can guarentee this is to do with the cam chain/ tensioner.

HELP

[Alpinestarhero]

Sounds something sinister in the engine, possibly cam-chain not being properly tensioned? Anyway, dont start the bike until the problem has been looked at by someone.

What a crappy thing to occur on your b/day :( but! things that go wrong can be put right, so dont dispair - theres a fix out there!

Matt

[ljharmitt]

Could the cam chain of come off and got jammed, would that damage my engine?

[Alpinestarhero]

Yes it would. If the cam chain is not tensioned properly, then (i think) the vales opening and closing will be out of synch with the pistons moving up and down; there is potential that a valve could be open when the pistion is at top dead center, where the top of the piston and the bottom of the valve would collide

I think?

I dunno

But thats what I think could happen

Matt

[r4ce_e3nd]

Is there enough oil in the engine??

[northwind]

How are you as a mechanic? I'd do 3 things immediately, I'd take off the cam covers and have a look, turn over the engine from the crank, and depending on what happens check the valve timing. No matter what you find you'd learn a lot. But you'd need to be fairly handy.

I don't think it's the cam chains, myself. If I was you I'd stop fixating on that, it's a very rare failure for the SV. What happens when you try to start it?

[ljharmitt]

nothing at all just makes one tiny click noise from front cylinder then nothing, all lights stay on nothing dims. Whats the worst it could be and how bad could it possibly damage my engines from what ive said?

[ljharmitt]

Yes it would. If the cam chain is not tensioned properly, then (i think) the vales opening and closing will be out of synch with the pistons moving up and down; there is potential that a valve could be open when the pistion is at top dead center, where the top of the piston and the bottom of the valve would collide

I think?

I dunno

But thats what I think could happen

Matt

Does that mean i'd need a new engine?

[BILLY]

Sounds to me it's either flat battery or a faulty starter relay!

[zadar]

first thing to do would be to drain oil on normal oil plug.if no metal particles seen take off other bolt on bottom of motor(8mm allen).look for metal there.if no metal take left engine cover off and check cam chain,starter gear/starter.
next would be valve train.

[yorkie_chris]

Since it was the tapping first I'd suspect valve related trouble.

Since it fired up, then stopped, I doubt it'll be the starter, the clank from the front seems to support valve trouble too.

If valves have hit pistons then there could be damage.

First thing to do is get the timing cap off and rotate the engine with a socket, see what happens.

[zadar]

sound travels weird ways in motors.
I would say rod bearing,reason to drain oil.

[I'm_a_Newbie]

Can't speculate really, you need to start looking for the problem.

On left hand engine casing remove the large blanking plug using an allen key. Use a 17mm socket, extension bar and ratchet to turn the engine over by hand. It should turn and you should feel the compression build up resistance against you. You should not hear any clunking noises or feel any harsh through the ratchet. Turn it round at least 2 revolutions if you can.

If you feel or hear anything harsh or it locks solid then something is broken.

Drop the radiator out of the way, you will need to remove the wiring to the rad and possibly the horn. Then use an allen key to remove the 3 bolts holding down the front engine cam cover. Once removed look at the chain to see if it is OK. You can remove the rear cam cover as well but you have to raise the tank. Try turning the engine with the ratchet again and watch the top of the chain and look for any damage.

If all appears OK you may need the engine out to strip it as it could be something internal. Might be cheaper to get an engine off ebay of for sale items on this site.

Tim

[northwind]

Yeah, see, I'd say do the cam covers and rotate the crank because I have a sneaking suspicion that it's going to turn out to be something simple :D And that's free and non-invasive.

[ASM-Forever]

When did you buy the bike as i seem to remember you only got it recently?

Maybe the seller pulled a fast one. :(

[ljharmitt]

Yeah, see, I'd say do the cam covers and rotate the crank because I have a sneaking suspicion that it's going to turn out to be something simple :D And that's free and non-invasive.

Hopefully, what i'm gonig to do is get my mate down to have a look then tell him to follow what you've all said on here lol cheers. btw do you think leaving it will do any damage? :confused:

[yorkie_chris]

Well if its not running at all its not going to do much!

[sinbad]

If I thought (but was not sure) that the engine had seized somehow, I think I'd take the spark plugs out, put the bike in gear and either try to wheel it, or push the wheel round whilst on a paddock stand. It should turn over relatively easily with the plugs out. If not, then I'd look further.

[tomjones2]

As other have said if you think the engine has sezied in someway the last thing you wnat to do i keep trying to start it.

Turn the engine over by hand (make sure you are going the right way) This takes some effort but not a huge amount, I would also use a relativley long wrench as it gives you more control.

[jambo]

Didn't feel like going with the advice offered in the other thread then?:scratch:


OK, as others have said, go through this methodically. You may well not need a new engine, but if the cam chain has jumped on the cam or crank teeth and pushed the valves into the piston it's possible the engine's dead. This may not be what's happened but we have to accept there's a fair chance of it. A lot of the time you will need new valves or a new head and the piston and rest of the engine will be fine. The problem is, this has now gone from an easy peasy job to a relatively involved one.....

Best of luck.

Jambo

[the_lone_wolf]

all lights stay on nothing dims.
haven't read the rest of the thread to see if this has been suggested but surely if you follow the logic

nothing dims-->

therefore the starter motor isn't drawing current-->

therefore the starter motor, or the circuitry to connect it, is faulty-->



before you dismantle the engine that's where i would start
:???:

[jambo]

If it's just making a clicking noise it's possible the battery is just flat, Lone wolf makes a good point there. Try charging the battery, it takes about 10 miles of running to put the charge back in that you take out by starting it. You've been starting it lots and not going anywhere, the battery may be low.


Fingers crossed!

[ljharmitt]

Charged it over night, not battery :(. Im rubbish with mechanics so im getting my mate do use your suggestions. Hopefully it can all be sorted for cheap.

[the_lone_wolf]

Charged it over night, not battery :(. Im rubbish with mechanics so im getting my mate do use your suggestions. Hopefully it can all be sorted for cheap.
if the battery isn't holding the charge it ain't going to work, have you tried jumping it from another battery

if it's not the battery it could be a faulty starter motor or relay, as someone else suggested

if you whip the plugs out and wheel the bike as someone else suggested it'll be obvious if the valves have fouled the piston head:cool:

[ljharmitt]

well jsut took off the fairing, looked at engine oil level, cant even see it ......... its all getting worse, what can i do now?

[Alpinestarhero]

well jsut took off the fairing, looked at engine oil level, cant even see it ......... its all getting worse, what can i do now?

Did you get the bike upright, off the stand? You shouldnt have lost any oil; this would reveal itself as a rather large puddle. 2.5 litres is alot, you know!

I think you need to get the bike into the back of a van and to a reputable garage, explain to them the problem and ask them to sort it out, and let you know what the problem is and how much it'll cost when they find the problem

Sorry this is happening to you mate, but it can be fixed, so dont worry.

Matt

[jambo]

well jsut took off the fairing, looked at engine oil level, cant even see it ......... its all getting worse, what can i do now?

Just to check, as per the other thread, when you check the engine oil level, the bike is upright, on both wheels, and NOT lent over on the side stand right? If it's off vertical, the oil will be over at the lower side of the engine, NOT at the correct level in the sight glass.

[the_lone_wolf]

what can i do now?

if you've checked the oil correctly and it's that low then take the plugs out to relieve the compression, if the bike won't roll forwards or back at all with the gearbox in 1st then the engine may well be seized...

sorry:(


if it does roll then the problem sounds more electric to me still...

[CB1ROCKET]

Try jump starting off a car battery, been reading this but the basic don't seem covered yet. A click click and no lights dimming would indicate the starter motor is at fault or the solnoid (relay switch) has a poor connection. This goes for the lights not dimming.

If the engine was sezied and the starter motor was working, the lights would dim so much that the starter motor would go up in smoke also.

Sounds very electrical to me now i said that!

Best of luck

[the_lone_wolf]

someone's been messing with the thread title;)

http://www.forumspile.com/Misc-PretentiousPanda.jpg

[Alpinestarhero]

Could be something to do with the middle asterixes, they are offensive you know.

**** etc etc

Matt

[the_lone_wolf]

Could be something to do with the middle asterixes, they are offensive you know.

**** etc etc

Matt
what has a plucky gaul got to do with online censorship?


or did you mean asterisk?;)

[ljharmitt]

took off the cover of the front cyclinder, chain is still on. not jammed, now my problem is i took off the tank to look at the rear for comparison. Now i dont know where the pipes are to connect it back up. any one got a pic of the tank on a curvy lifted?

Also i dont see the problem so just going to take it to the garage, will tell you how it turns out

[yorkie_chris]

the one stuck out the bottom of the fuel petcock on the bottom of the tank on the 90 degree fitting goes to the rear cylinder inlet manifold.
the other one goes to the fuel pump.

If in doubt suck on one of the pipes and see which one covers you in fuel


Have you actually tried to turn the engine though?

[the_lone_wolf]

Have you actually tried to turn the engine though?
what he said^^^

worth a check before you get your panties in a twist because you think you've buggered your engine:smt045

[tomjones2]

what he said^^^

worth a check before you get your panties in a twist because you think you've buggered your engine:smt045

DO this, if you think there is a problem with the engine not turning it is much better to do it by hand that agrevate the problem by using the starter motor.

[ljharmitt]

the one stuck out the bottom of the fuel petcock on the bottom of the tank on the 90 degree fitting goes to the rear cylinder inlet manifold.
the other one goes to the fuel pump.

If in doubt suck on one of the pipes and see which one covers you in fuel


Have you actually tried to turn the engine though?

Pics Please :cool:

[yorkie_chris]

Dont have a camera, just suck on one, sucking one of them will cause fuel to run out of the other one. The one the fuel comes out of goes to the fuel pump.

[fizzwheel]

Is this any use to you ?

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e344/fizzwheel/DSCN1419.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e344/fizzwheel/DSCN1418.jpg

k1 Curvey with the tank up...

[ljharmitt]

Is this any use to you ?

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e344/fizzwheel/DSCN1419.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e344/fizzwheel/DSCN1418.jpg

k1 Curvey with the tank up...

Yeah thanks.

Got new problem now, seems to turn over some times on full battery but not start???? Got it booked in for wednesday lol

[fizzwheel]

Got new problem now, seems to turn over some times on full battery but not start???? Got it booked in for wednesday lol

Might I make a suggestion, leave the damn thing alone if it is f*cked if you keep trying to start it you're going to make things worse which is might mean that something at the mo is fixable cheaply might become a a huge massive problem that is terminal for your motor.

[ljharmitt]

Sounds good advice to me

[gettin2dizzy]

There's loads of suggestion here that you're missing.

Have you checked properly for oil - bike completely upright- give it a minute to settle?

You haven't just hit the kill switch? ;)

When you turn the ignition on can any of the electrics work?

[Alpinestarhero]

lj, seems like you've gone through alot. Best leave the bike alone now or you'll wreck other things :smt116 Least you have it booked in and it'll get fixed then, in the mean time go do your restricted lisence and be ready for the bike being fixed :D

Matt

[Benji]

Okay for the love of god, don't make me do this.

People are giving you plenty of advice here, all good.

Here is the situation, your bike doesn't start. *Regardless of what may or may not be the cause of this as offered in this thread*, please please for the love of all things holy go and do what has been suggested in your other thread *FIRST*

No more charging batteries, no more trying to jump it from another battery, no more trying to bump it, no more trying to turn it by hand, no more nothing.

PLEASE PELASE PLEASE do not attemp to turn that motor another revolution by *ANY* means UNTIL YOU HAVE DONE WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN ASKED TO CHECK IN THE OTHER THREAD.

The way I see it, your cam chain tensioner almost certainly has a problem and needs to be checked, you now have a second problem, if you are really really really lucky it *IS* a related to things suggeted in this thread (ie. electrical), if its not and the engine lunched itself because you decided to ignore perfectly good advice before, then you have just turned something that would have been a very simple *cheap* fix into something that is now a very very VERY difficult *EXPENSIVE* fix.

Am I making this clear enough?

Simple/cheap or expensive/difficult? You decide.

[ljharmitt]

Not even going to touch the bike again....

What happens if the bike had ran out of oil?

When i took it apart it looked all oiled to me but i dunno how much it needed.

[ljharmitt]

Oh and another thing what would happen if i put the pipes on the wrong way lol?

[yorkie_chris]

Rumbling bearings, then a bang and no movement.
Your noise wasn't, IMO, a rumbling bearing.

Have you tried to turn the engine by rolling the bike (slowly)?

[yorkie_chris]

The pipes being on the wrong way, it just wouldn't run or maybe flood the back pot, not a big issue really.

[ljharmitt]

Rumbling bearings, then a bang and no movement.
Your noise wasn't, IMO, a rumbling bearing.

Have you tried to turn the engine by rolling the bike (slowly)?

sounded similar to what actually happened though, theoretically what damage would that cause?

[ljharmitt]

another thing ive noticed when the bike is in gear since that has happened even with the clutch in the bike feels like the clutch is out, nothing to do with the calbes ive checked. hope this helps with your results

[yorkie_chris]

Blown big end or main bearing = chuck the engine in the corner of the garage for spares.

What happens when you try to turn the engine?

[ljharmitt]

by what in first gear, wheel just locks up cant get it to turn at all.

[yorkie_chris]

Try a higher gear, you should feel the resistance of compression, and there shouldn't be any crunchy noises from the top end :p

[ljharmitt]

what bad signs am i looking for?

[yorkie_chris]

PM'd

[ljharmitt]

oh and the wheel is still jsut locked cant move it unless clutch in

[the_lone_wolf]

oh and the wheel is still jsut locked cant move it unless clutch inis that with the spark plugs out though? if they're still in the the compression will stop the engine rotating

i'm still very dubious that this isn't an electrical issue, in fact, based on what i've read in this thread i'd stick my neck out and bet dollars to doughnuts that the engine is fine and the starter motor circuitry is the problem

you have to respond to some questions if we are going to understand what's wrong with the bike, answering these will make it much easier:

1. Have you checked the oil correctly, with the bike upright? if so was it low?

2. As above, when you tried to roll the bike did you remove both the spark plugs?

we're trying to help, but there's not a lot of info to go on here...
:cool:

[ASM-Forever]

bet dollars to doughnuts

I'll see that bet. :smt045

[the_lone_wolf]

I'll see that bet. :smt045
deal, if the starter motor circuitry is faulty you send me a $10 bill, if it's not then i'll send you a couple of doughnuts...

now we just need some results:smt112

[Benji]

i'm still very dubious that this isn't an electrical issue, in fact, based on what i've read in this thread i'd stick my neck out and bet dollars to doughnuts that the engine is fine and the starter motor circuitry is the problem

Yes, it is entirely possible but from reading the other thread it distinctly sounds like there are two problems going on here and the first thing really really really needs to be checked and sorted before trying to work out how to get the bike started again.

you have to respond to some questions if we are going to understand what's wrong with the bike, answering these will make it much easier, we're trying to help, but there's not a lot of info to go on here...
:cool:

Right on the money. ljharmitt, to quote a phrase "HELP ME, HELP YOOOUUUUUUUUU".

[the_lone_wolf]

...from reading the other thread...
there's another thread?:-dd

[Benji]

there's another thread?:-dd

:mrgreen:

http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=100534

[the_lone_wolf]

:mrgreen:

http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=100534
ah, yes, that doesn't sound good...

looks like i'll be spending some money on www.dozenthanks.com unless i can weasel out of it:p

[Benji]

lol well hopefully it *is* just an electrical problem for the second problem he has here.....fingers crossed he hasn't destroyed his engine but not listening to everyone the first time round, hopefully he will this time. :rolleyes:

[ASM-Forever]

ah, yes, that doesn't sound good...

looks like i'll be spending some money on www.dozenthanks.com (http://www.dozenthanks.com) unless i can weasel out of it:p

I will also accept payment in childrens tears.

[ljharmitt]

tried with front spark plug out, still locked, will try with both out later bout 11 - 12pm. Checked oil last night and cant see any oh *dear*, only had bike a while and never checked it cause never had lower fairings off

[yorkie_chris]

Daft question #101, were you holding the bike upright?

[ljharmitt]

yeah was holding it upright

[ljharmitt]

Just been told may be a spun rod bearing, is that repairable or new engine?

[yorkie_chris]

:(

Not good my friend, a new engine is probably the answer, a crank kit will probably run to more than a secondhand lump.
It must have been bloody low on oil to be knocking from the front so badly (as per your first video), might be worth enquiring with whoever you bought the bike off and ask why it was so f###ing funny to sell a bike with no oil in it.

Somebody with more knowledge of internals on the SV should know whether its worth repair?
(I'd be interested too, I have a spare engine which is rumbling from the big end or maybe mains)

[northwind]

Only if you've got a cheap crank- it could be rebuilt, but financially it makes no sense. But, don't lose hope just yet, "may be" isn't enough to write off the engine, especially not with the other stuff going on which isn't explained by a big end failure (clutch feeling strange frinstance)

[ljharmitt]

heres hoping :shaking:

[yorkie_chris]

(clutch feeling strange frinstance)
May be a daft question, but surely a wet clutch will feel different with no oil.
Can you regrind the SV crank and fit bigger bearings?

Had a bit of a chat, from the sounds of things theres less than a liter of oil in the engine.

One of the mods on svrider thinks the knocking in the previous video was bearing related.

This sounds to me like its destroyed the bearings due to lack of oil, any other thoughts?

[ljharmitt]

Also does anybody know how much it will cost me for the garage to look for me, only a little place but what can i expect?

[northwind]

Never heard of anyone regrinding an SV crank, though I don't know much about the process. TBH I'm not paying much attention to the vid, since the sound quality's so low and ljharmitt reckons it sounded different in the flesh anyway. But aye, the low oil makes the big end a likely suspect :(

If a garage suspects the bearings, the first thing they'll do is drain the oil and look for, well, bits. Dead fast. Second would probably be to pop off the heads and give the pistons a waggle, crude but it works. I could do both of those in a couple of hours, on the one hand I'm no pro so I'll be slower than someone who does it for a living, but on the other I've done it before on SVs so I know what to do so that'd speed things up.

[zadar]

it can be welded and regrind but I would personally never do it.new crank is expensive.used motor is better option.
it is easy to check if bearing is gone,I already posted how.
sometime you will not find pieces in oil,you have to take alan bolt off.all particles collect right on top of it.

[tomjones2]

From experience taking engines to bits is time consuming and messy if you are going to do it yourself, you need to be pretty competent IMO. I'm not and gave up after struggling with the rotor and snapping a bolt in the engine, I could have done it but basically got bored. New engine is a better bet, it will proably cost you more to get them to strip/ rebuilt the old engine without parts than a new (SH) engine will cost. Its also quite an easy job to switch engines, if you have a helper its useful but not essential.

[ljharmitt]

Does anybody know if a pointy engine would fit or work with my curvy sv?

Shop is coming tomoz, person who was coming to get it is off ill today so will hopefully be in tomoz

[gettin2dizzy]

It would be far to powerful; the frame would snap in half before you hit 1500rpm!

[tomjones2]

Does anybody know if a pointy engine would fit or work with my curvy sv?

Shop is coming tomoz, person who was coming to get it is off ill today so will hopefully be in tomoz

Not sure exactley, but you have quite a lot of other problems, you will need the full FI system, new exhaust header (the pointy has an oil cooler) and that before you have started putting the engine in.

[northwind]

Does anybody know if a pointy engine would fit or work with my curvy sv?


Sort of. But it's better kept simple IMO.

[yorkie_chris]

Not sure exactley, but you have quite a lot of other problems, you will need the full FI system, new exhaust header (the pointy has an oil cooler) and that before you have started putting the engine in.

No you won't, you can run it on the curvy ignition system and carbs.

However, you'll be paying a lot more £££ for a pointy one, for more work, more complications and their own vices.
Stick to a curvy one.

[tomjones2]

No you won't, you can run it on the curvy ignition system and carbs.

However, you'll be paying a lot more £££ for a pointy one, for more work, more complications and their own vices.
Stick to a curvy one.

Sorry, I have no idea why I said that, for some reason I was thinking of converting the bike to FI. I crawl back under my rock. Does the cuvey stuff fit straight on or do you have to modify it slightly?

[Richie]

New crank for a curvy sv is .... £340... + vat...

did you find out if the engine is goosed or not...

It sounded like big end shell bearing might have turned...

[yorkie_chris]

IIRC the bike shops collecting it from him tomorrow

[Richie]

IIRC the bike shops collecting it from him tomorrow

Hopefully it will be something cheap to fix.... fingers crossed.

[ljharmitt]

Hopefully it will be something cheap to fix.... fingers crossed.

:thumbsup: heres me hoping, if not will look for some :smt056 relief from the org lol

[ASM-Forever]

if not will look for some relief from the org

Talk to Hovis. :p

[ljharmitt]

Been told by a friend if engine is ****ed he will rebuilt it for £300 - £400 inc parts, what you think of that price?

[Alpinestarhero]

Been told by a friend if engine is ****ed he will rebuilt it for £300 - £400 inc parts, what you think of that price?

Seems quite reasonable! I doubt you would get an engine for that price

Matt

[northwind]

Been told by a friend if engine is ****ed he will rebuilt it for £300 - £400 inc parts, what you think of that price?

Very very good, in fact, that might be less than the new parts cost with the gaskets etc considered!

[ljharmitt]

lets just hope and see when he picks it up lol

[Alpinestarhero]

Lj, have you sorted out about doing your training to ride the bike when its fixed?

Matt

[ljharmitt]

Lj, have you sorted out about doing your training to ride the bike when its fixed?

Matt

Of course test is booked january 10th

[yorkie_chris]

Been told by a friend if engine is ****ed he will rebuilt it for £300 - £400 inc parts, what you think of that price?

Depends whats knackered, but it could be more than that if the cranks scored

[northwind]

I've been thinking, and it's just possible I have a spare crank... one of the blown engines I have was sold to me as having a big end knock, but when I opened it up it had dropped a valve, and a quick check suggested that the crank might actually be OK and it was just misdiagnosed. So, I'll drag it out and have a look-see.

[Pedro68]

LJ, speaking from personal (painful) experience here ...

A replacement engine would be a better option than a rebuild.
My rebuilt engine cost me about £850. That was 2nd-hand crank, con-rods and bearings. Almost HALF of that cost was for labour (stripping old engine down and putting it back together).

Wish I'd known how long it was going to take and how much it was going to cost, because had I known, I'd have chosen to go for a replacement engine, rather than having mine rebuilt.

But I guess you'll need to wait and see exactly what the problem is first ;-)

Good luck!