View Full Version : Another prison suicide
So what? you say.
Well this boy was just 15. Why the hell are we locking up 15 year olds? Breach of a supervision order. Oh big deal. Something is very very wrong here. Quite astonishing that we with our supposedly enlightened 2007 western values are locking up 15 year olds for such trivial matters.
Poor Liam:(
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lancashire/7119646.stm
I've been invited to become a trustee of a charity here in S'bury, called SHARP - Support Help and Advice to Relatives of Prisoners. As the name suggests, offers practical support to rellies of prisoners - advising on benefits, that sort of thing. I'm interested.
yorkie_chris
29-11-07, 10:51 PM
And what did he have the supervision order for?
What if he was a little scroat who was supposed to be under supervision because he'd been burgling peoples houses and mugging old ladies?
I was given a warning a number of years ago, which for the 2 years until it expired meant that any offence was likely to end up going to CPS with the possibilty of court (thats what my brief said at the time anyway), I was VERY careful to stay out of trouble in that time.
For them to prosecute for breaching such an order he would have had to have no respect for the authorities at all.
I think I'd rather find out what he was in for before I get all teary eyed over the massive tragedy, and I'm fairly convinced if I did know the facts I'd think "good riddance"
YC - regardless of what this lad did, and I don't suppose he was a paragon of virtue, don't you think that a 15 year old dead body with a broken neck is a tragedy?
I do.
Perhaps he should have had 40 lashes, and died of heart failure. Then would your view be any different?
It free up another a prison space.
Having seen what 15 year olds are capable of stealing cars, carrying knifes, killing dads on their own door steps........I'm affraid i have no sympathy, he didnt need to kill himself
squirrel_hunter
29-11-07, 11:08 PM
I understand what you are saying regarding the locking up of a 15 year old for breaching a "Supervision Order", that sounds a little harsh considering the outcome in this case. However if he breached the order and wasn't jailed what further sanctions can be imposed? Surly there would be up roar for "the system failing the victims"?
I would like to see us lock up no children, let alone adults but there has to be some ultimate recourse for someones actions. Limiting the comment to, as in this case children, I feel that more should be done to work with the child and their family to prevent rather than punish.
As for SHARP that does sound worthwhile, prision does not just give the individual a sentance.
Warthog
29-11-07, 11:12 PM
I'm sorry to say this is yet again a lot of opinions without all the facts. Poor kid might have been in there for stealing a sweety, or could have been one of the Bulger killers, you just don't know.
I'm sorry to say this is yet again a lot of opinions without all the facts. Poor kid might have been in there for stealing a sweety, or could have been one of the Bulger killers, you just don't know.
The fact is that this lad is dead. Isn't the rest irrelevant?
yorkie_chris
29-11-07, 11:22 PM
Fred Barrass was shot dead at 16
I don't think that was a tragedy
The fact is that this lad is dead. Isn't the rest irrelevant?
Then he shouldnt have killed himself.......that was his choice, no one elses.
Theres only so much people can do.....take away to much and people would be shouting human rights, take away his trousers so he cant hang himself and people will be shouting H&S gone mad.
Making everything else irrelevant like you say, including the fact he was locked up. He chose to kill himself, noone else.
yorkie_chris
29-11-07, 11:27 PM
He chose to kill himself, noone else.
He also chose to be a complete numpty and ignore a lenient sentence
He also chose to be a complete numpty and ignore a lenient sentence
We were making everything else irrelevant apart from the fact he was dead.....which was his own doing.
But yup to be locked up he was obviously a complete numpty also.
yorkie_chris
29-11-07, 11:35 PM
with our supposedly enlightened 2007 western values are locking up 15 year olds for such trivial matters.
Better than getting a hairy Arab in a ski mask to beat him to death with a stick.
Some of the crap that goes on and gets the offender an ASBO or a warning is shocking, especially as prison is used as the very last resort in between about 10 other steps of warnings and wrist slappings.
Maybe making prison look a bit more depressing is the answer to youth offending?
ASM-Forever
29-11-07, 11:37 PM
I have to say i'm with YC, GP and Warthog here.
Its unlkely he was a decent kid if he got banged up. The fact he commited suicide makes little difference to me either. I certainly will not lose any sleep over it.....there are people far more deserving of sympathy in the world.
With the amount of compassion you have Ed, you must be a saint!
With the amount of compassion you have Ed, you must be a saint!
or a defence lawyer?
Do I remeber you saying you were a lawyer Ed or did i imagine that...i know someone on here is.
ASM-Forever
29-11-07, 11:48 PM
or a defence lawyer?
Do I remeber you saying you were a lawyer Ed or did i imagine that...i know someone on here is.
I thought he was a contract law solicitor....i'm often wrong though. :p
Ed is in the legal business but lets not confuse business with personal views here.
I have to say that a 15 year old dead is not good news...neither for the kid, his family or even the system that is in place.
Questioning why we lock up 15 year olds is very vague and a generalization. Certainly, he wasn't a saint but without knowing what he was locked up for we cannot judge the system. For all we know he might have killed someone.......nothing we haven't seen before from a 15 year old. On the other hand he might have indeed just stole a sweet.
I think the sad thing here is that the system is failing to "correct" these people...of whatever age!
Balky001
30-11-07, 12:26 AM
A waste of life is always sad and I understand where Ed is coming from but the public shouldnt be exposed to dangerous people regardless of their age, and no politician is going to raise tax to provide decent care and reabilitation due to sceptisism from the public, its a vote loser. To say no 15 year old deserves custody is not a reality (IMO).
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lincolnshire/7117016.stm
MiniMatt
30-11-07, 03:14 AM
Good god people. I'm with Ed on this one. At what age are we writing off kids as scrap nowadays? What is the purpose of prison? To punish? To protect the public? To rehabilitate? It's all three of these, the least of the three being to punish. If we can't turn around a 15 year old's life what can we do? What's more worrying is that it would appear we don't actually *care* to turn round a 15 year old kid's life, we'd rather just see him locked up and don't give a damn what happens.
I can't quite see how the same people who seem to think prison is a cushty option where inmates get luxury treatment don't really give a damn when it's apparently so horrific that a kid feels he'd rather be dead than spend another day there.
Yes there are always going to be kids that go down the wrong road, and yes we're always going to need to make some sort of provision for them, but we have a duty of care, whether we like it or not, to children.
timwilky
30-11-07, 08:31 AM
Locking children up is nothing new. I had a friend do 6 months borstal in the 70s age 15, he never offended again. My younger brother convicted with him of the same crime. was given probation. He instead carried on his ways. got a second probation, then a suspended sentence and finally a year in Walton.
Co-incidently both these guys now run their own businesses, the former now a multi millionaire whilst the latter is close. They both offer one chance jobs to ex prisoners.
Prison done right serves two purposes, to punish and to rehabilitate. In both cases above. The punishment was enough to ensure neither had any desire to go back.
I site my younger brothers case. You could go on dragging him before the courts and soft option sentences were a joke. If he had been given borstal at day one like his mate then that would have been one offending behaviour nipped in the bud at the start of his career.
BTW, why did my brother do a year. Nicking a car battery. Trivial, low value, etc. But a persistant offender in breach of a 6 month suspended.
Oh well s*it happens, he was inside for a reason and probably deserved to be inside.
TBH i think more scumbag prisoners should top themselfes, we could then solve the cell shortage.
Yes he was only 15, but he chose his path in life and could not deal with the concequences, oh well so he was a weak willed person as well, probably in the grand scheme of things not a great loss to civalisation.
If you cant do the time dont do the crime springs to mind.
punish.
As for SHARP that does sound worthwhile, prision does not just give the individual a sentance.
well maybe those commiting crime should think of that!!
I have no sypathy for 99% of criminals, and i belive our law and justice system should be a hell of a lot tougher with the re introduction of the death penalty for the most severe crimes.
husky03
30-11-07, 08:49 AM
Sad that someone so young is now dead but for him to be there in the first place tells you what kind of life he chose to lead-I deal with kids who are even younger than him who don't have any fear of going to prison,have no respect for anyone or anything,and will commit some of the most violent crime you'll ever see.Its going to become more and more frequent that offenders will be younger and younger-they will play the system and take there chance-they get away with so much for along period without being punished,when its time to stand up and take there medicine its no surprise that some can't take it.Scarey thing is that there will be another ready to fill his place.
CoolGirl
30-11-07, 08:53 AM
Yes he was only 15, but he chose his path in life and could not deal with the concequences, oh well so he was a weak willed person as well, probably in the grand scheme of things not a great loss to civalisation.
Did he? I know nothing about the background to the crime or his upbringing, but that's irrelevant. Crime might seem like a lifestyle choice, sometimes it's all you know. Lots of research has been done into the intergenerational impact of crime and poor basic skills (blame the parents?) and communities of low aspiration.
Prison should be a last resort and a place for reflection and rehabilitation, and an opportunity to start over, not somewhere that makes you feel desperate and hopeless.
timwilky
30-11-07, 08:53 AM
well maybe those commiting crime should think of that!!
I have no sypathy for 99% of criminals, and i belive our law and justice system should be a hell of a lot tougher with the re introduction of the death penalty for the most severe crimes.
Whilst I agree, our laws should be tougher. I cannot support any re-introduction of the death penalty. The one thing about British law is that we do have an appeals processes that is supposed to ensure any unfair trial is overturned. We now recognise it isn't perfect and have the review panels that have shown time and again that mistakes have been made, that supposed forensic evidence is not perfect and cases of prosecution deliberately not disclosing evidence that would clear the accused, and so called experts talking out their ****.
Cases that spring top mind, Stefan Kisco, Sally Clarke etc. Although in Sally's case you would have got your ultimate sanction as the whole unfair conviction ultimately led to her death
? What is the purpose of prison? To punish? To protect the public? To rehabilitate?
I can't quite see how the same people who seem to think prison is a cushty option where inmates get luxury treatment
.
The purpose of prison should be to punish and prevent re offending, which does not work!! It should not be there to rehabilitate, you are in there and deservre to be punished. The victorians had the right idea, 10's to a cell no exersise and little food and water. Our prison service is a joke no deterant at all, we should look at other countries on how to treat crims.
and yes it is cushty, My old man has is a PO in the prison service and has worked as a Prison officer for 30+ years. Some of the stories about how well they get treated are shocking, and he has only worked in Cat A (murderes, rapists etc) prisons so god knows how cushty the rest are?? But i am proud to say he and a few are still old school and belive that a good slap now and again if they get out of line is the way foward!!
Ever wonderd why the UK has the highest prison population, maybe because its that there is no incentive to stay out. My dad has told me so many times at this time of year there is an influx of homeless trying to get in for winter as its sooooooo easy in there. Bed , free time, showers ,food, entertainment etc!!
Did he? I know nothing about the background to the crime or his upbringing, .
Please god dont use that old chestnut, bleeding hearts etc!! yes he did chose his path , he was not born as a criminal was he??
I have met plenty of people in the forcs who have come from rerally bad backgrounds and had two choices , stay and probably get into trouble or do something with their life. They chose the Forces and decided not to be a scumbag, so yes he hada choice he chose his path, no excusses!!
Prison should be a last resort and a place for reflection and rehabilitation, and an opportunity to start over, not somewhere that makes you feel desperate and hopeless.
Again i completly disagree, Prison should be the single worst experiance of your life so to make you so sure and insistant that you are not going back!! not a camp where you have better opertunities at courses and qualifications than those on the outside.
kids get away with murder these days (its just a saying) the fact he was locked up proves hes a bad un (IMO)
yes, its a shame he killed himself,
but,at 15 kids are drinking, taking drugs, having babies etc so IMO they are not to young to be locked up
CoolGirl
30-11-07, 09:12 AM
Please god dont use that old chestnut, bleeding hearts etc!! yes he did chose his path , he was not born as a criminal was he??
I have met plenty of people in the forcs who have come from rerally bad backgrounds and had two choices , stay and probably get into trouble or do something with their life. They chose the Forces and decided not to be a scumbag, so yes he hada choice he chose his path, no excusses!!
Which is why a vast majority of homeless people are ex-offenders, ex-forces or both. They just aren't given the tools to integrate into society and end up on the streets and with mental health probelms becasue they can't cope. If either institution is merely a stopgap beween bouts of real life, then it's not helping anyone. (and we spend a lot of money teaching the armed forces basic skills).
Flamin_Squirrel
30-11-07, 09:16 AM
It should not be there to rehabilitate, you are in there and deservre to be punished. The victorians had the right idea, 10's to a cell no exersise and little food and water. Our prison service is a joke no deterant at all, we should look at other countries on how to treat crims.
You've not got a clue have you.
Which is why a vast majority of homeless people are ex-offenders, ex-forces or both. They just aren't given the tools to integrate into society and end up on the streets and with mental health probelms becasue they can't cope. If either institution is merely a stopgap beween bouts of real life, then it's not helping anyone. (and we spend a lot of money teaching the armed forces basic skills).
Agreed there are a fair few that are homeless but only because they fail to prepare for life after the forces. The forces will give you plenty of help to get housing and jobs, the Resetlement package is good enough. I may be a bit biased as i amin a technical and well educated part of the forces so finding well paid employment after the forces is not going to be that hard.
You've not got a clue have you.
I do i just have a very different and contrasting POV compared to you FS??
As i have a MRs who is a cop a dad as prison officer and i am in the forces i think i havea well rounded view and opinions on crime, punishment and disapline thank you, and you all know i have no time for the pink and fluffy PC brigade with their lets treat a rapist as a human POV!!
prison is like a holiday camp..................... so i have been told, by people who have been
Hmmm - this is a tricky one me thinks.
For a start the whole system is to blame for this, my reasons are as follows:
When I was a kid (i'm now 32) we used to be quite naughty at times, but a b*ll*cking from an adult or even old bill, would have been enough to scare the life out of us. We, like it or not, respected our elders and most definately the police and any other authority figure for that matter.
Due to the do-gooder/politically correct/human rights OTT society we live in, none of this respect now exists (or is even taught) and it really is noticeable.
A clip round the ear from someone (or even the threat of one) or a really angry b*ll*cking would always have been enough to head off trouble. The problem is kids these days no that you can't do anything or you end up on the wrong side of the law.
What deterrent is that?
Due to my recent accident I am forced to get on the bus and the lack of respect shown to other people by young teenagers is shocking and has made me feel quite sick that the country is this way. It really is bad.
As an example of this:
A few years back I took my (then 4 years old) daughter to the park and we were climbing up a large climbing frame, when bits of pizza started raining down on us. I climbed up to the top to b*ll*ck the person doing this and to my amazement it was a 10-11 year old boy sitting there with a massive pizza hut box in front of him.
I proceeded to bollock him at which point he turned round and said 'What the f*ck you gonna do about it?' - the point is he was right he knew I could do nothing and so rather than being scared and running off as we would have done as kids; he fronted me out with no respect and basically won.
Political correctness has gone too far for me and is the cuase of this culture and we need to go back to 70's and 80's style values to be able to re-gain control of these kids, which in turn will stop (or greatly reduce) instances such as Ed has outlined.
Prison is also too cushy.........make it a tougher option and then less people will re-offend. It is only because prison is not seen as a too bad thing by some that so much re-offending takes place.
I proceeded to bollock him at which point he turned round and said 'What the f*ck you gonna do about it?' ace.
he could have , 'acidentaly' slipped from the top of the climbing frame. ;)
It's not tragic.
Tragic is 90000 healthy animals destroyed by the RSPCA each year because they can't find them homes.
Tragic is the 30000 elderly people who die of hypothermia in the UK each year because they can't keep warm in winter and no-one is there to check on them.
Tragic is the waste of resources spent trying to save the less deserving from themselves, resources which could otherwise be spent on the truly needy.
I have no sympathy in this case.
he could have , 'acidentaly' slipped from the top of the climbing frame. ;)
Believe me I really wanted to - after he said that I was raging, but I know that it would be me in trouble.
It did make me wonder how a 10-11 year old could a) afford a large pizza £12+ and b) why was he on his own?
It really p*ss*s me off.
Believe me I really wanted to - after he said that I was raging, but I know that it would be me in trouble.
It did make me wonder how a 10-11 year old could a) afford a large pizza £12+ and b) why was he on his own?
It really p*ss*s me off.
he probably robbed an old granny for the money, well at leat you should have taken the pizza from him if he was on his own and then said "yeah what you going to do about it?" LOL
Flamin_Squirrel
30-11-07, 09:43 AM
I do i just have a very different and contrasting POV compared to you FS??
As i have a MRs who is a cop a dad as prison officer and i am in the forces i think i havea well rounded view and opinions on crime, punishment and disapline thank you, and you all know i have no time for the pink and fluffy PC brigade with their lets treat a rapist as a human POV!!
I'm far from the pink fluffy brigade thanks. I'm just a realist.
You take someone only knows crime, throw them prison, treat them like crap and do nothing to rehabilitate them. What do you think's gonna happen when they're released? The only way they know to make money is through crime, but now they're even more detached and angry at society.
Rehabilitation in 'soft option' prison isn't the problem, it's part of the solution.
well at leat you should have taken the pizza from him if he was on his own and then said "yeah what you going to do about it?" LOL
then krhall would have probaly got done for somthing
bring back cruxifixion
I'm far from the pink fluffy brigade thanks. I'm just a realist.
You take someone only knows crime, throw them prison, treat them like crap and do nothing to rehabilitate them. What do you think's gonna happen when they're released? The only way they know to make money is through crime, but now they're even more detached and angry at society.
Rehabilitation in 'soft option' prison isn't the problem, it's part of the solution.
I never said you were FS.
But i do think that by giving a short sharp shock and by making the punishment the single most horific experiance it will deter all but the hardest of crims, in which case the 3 strikes and yo uare out should apply like the states has in some areas.
This thread isn't really about the boy that topped himself it is much wider reaching than that - It's about society in general and the PC world gone far far too far!
Rehabilitation - yes
Short, Sharp Shock - yes
Make the punishment severe enough as Neio79 says, but also help with rehabilitation after.
THERE MUST BE A SUITABLY SEVERE PUNISHMENT TOO!!!!!!
No poxy tv's in their rooms, no cigarettes, no option to buy extra items - the bare essentails to survive that's all IMHO that you should be given in prison!
It is all about upbringing, however I'm afraid like any animal, if it is not trained from young then it becomes harder to train once its older. There are those that manage to make something of themselves, but time and time again you just see the same old faces coming through again once theyre back on the outside.
Oh and for those that have never seen what 15 year olds are capable of, if you did you would quickly lose the thought of them as "children".
Oh and for those that have never seen what 15 year olds are capable of, if you did you would quickly lose the thought of them as "children".
+1 for me. I think some of you are looking at this from a slightly rose tinted glasses.
True blame the up-bringing to a degree, but always remember we make our own choices in life.
This teenager, however tragic it may seem, showed a lack of respect to his parents even in his ultimate act, by taking his own life. I know this statement will cause some outrage but it is true. He took the easy way out rather than working hard as the majority of society do.
If you live by the sword you die by the sword.
If they are a product of their upbringing, then surely that's a case for sterilisation and neutering when sent to prison? Break the chain by stopping them breeding.
Sounds like a winner to me.
timwilky
30-11-07, 10:16 AM
I am sorry to say those who think the problem lies with parents/upbringing etc. are wrong. I would say that I am a decent member of society, yet my younger brother was a thief. Damm he even robbed me of my savings and I only found out it was his when I found the evidence cleaning up his stuff once he had been sent to prison.
The criminal justice system fails young offenders by not quickly correcting their offending behaviour. You have a PC society that wants to empathise with these offenders and persuade them to change their ways. Sorry to say this will never work. Asbos are a cheap way of saying you naughty boy/girl. It does not punish them and is seen as a badge of honour.
Criminal behaviour needs to be nipped in the bud at day 1. Short Sharp Shock would have worked if it had not been for the do gooders who cannot understand some people need to learn discipline.
Pedrosa
30-11-07, 10:18 AM
As a father of a teenage boy myself, hearing of the death of any young boy I always find so sad. The majority of kids dont go bad from choice. It is often a result of their non functional family environment, questionable peers etc. In addition due to the "togetherness" mentality of gangs etc many kids attach themselves to indivicuals and types of behaviour that though wrong, they see as the way to go.
I think that the charity or organisation that Ed mentions is comendable,however my thinking is so.....
I would be much happier if we could claim that victims are presently cared for adequately before actually leaning toward those that commit crimes. For me that would be the priority, but I do stress that many with a criminal back ground could be guided to a more law abiding route given the correct support and education.
Incarceration and frugal existence has more chance of creating more determined criminals than helping them see the errors of their ways.
I am sorry to say those who think the problem lies with parents/upbringing etc. are wrong. I would say that I am a decent member of society, yet my younger brother was a thief. Damm he even robbed me of my savings and I only found out it was his when I found the evidence cleaning up his stuff once he had been sent to prison.
The criminal justice system fails young offenders by not quickly correcting their offending behaviour. You have a PC society that wants to empathise with these offenders and persuade them to change their ways. Sorry to say this will never work. Asbos are a cheap way of saying you naughty boy/girl. It does not punish them and is seen as a badge of honour.
Criminal behaviour needs to be nipped in the bud at day 1. Short Sharp Shock would have worked if it had not been for the do gooders who cannot understand some people need to learn discipline.
Again +1
I was a bit of a tearaway when I was younger nothing too bad really fights, recreational drugs etc. but I would like to think that I am now hard-working and responsible person and this is through the choices I made. Where as on the other hand my sister is a total loss and a burden on society, who puts nothing into it but takes loads out.
She has more than me and doesn't have to lift a finger, whereas on the other hand I have very little and work two jobs to get what little I have because I have a mortgage etc.
How is that right and how is that any form of incentive for me going to work????????
I realise that this post is a slight derail but as I mentioned earlier it is about the whole of society and not just this one instance..........
[quote=krhall;1354540 He took the easy way out rather than working hard as the majority of society do.
.[/quote]
especially as he was only sentanced to just over a month FFS!!! , a month of watching TV playing computer games and dossing arround, surely that is most teenagers dream?? ;)
prison is like a holiday camp..................... so i have been told, by people who have been
I can vouch for that, I went to Pontins last year :D
Does anyone know that this kid didn't have a history of mental illness?
what genuine problems or just a dumb as f**k pain in the **** trouble maker who would have probaly played on that sort of thing?? ;)
timwilky
30-11-07, 10:52 AM
Lets just draw a line under this. This kid was failed by the system. Whilst we can debate till that cows come home as to should he or should he not have been locked up, that is immaterial.
The induction system should have picked up that he was a vulnerable prisoner and likely to commit suicide. At that time he should have been counselled and placed on a suicide watch. Lets leave it till the inquest to establish what was and wasn't done.
I can vouch for that, I went to Pontins last year :D
poor you.......... :(
+1 for me. I think some of you are looking at this from a slightly rose tinted glasses.... He took the easy way out rather than working hard as the majority of society do.
I was just seeing a client and suddenly there's 7 pages...
Someone asked what I do for a living - you were close, I'm a lawyer - civil work only, no criminal. I have no experience of criminal defence, I simply express my views as an independent observer. I'm conservative right on fiscal, economic and political issues, but a bleeding heart fluffy liberal on social matters.
When I posted this I knew it would be controversial but I didn't think it would cause quite such polarisation. Interesting views expressed... I consider it a tragedy that this lad is dead. No angel, I'm sure. But suicide while in the care of the prison system? No rose tinted glasses can disguise a body.
poor you.......... :(
Nah, only joking. I'm as likely to be seen at Pontins as I am to be seen in tracksuit bottoms drinking cider on the street at 10:30am.
Very true ED and each of us will have a different stance dependant on our lives/experiences, so as you say this was bound to spark debate and no doubt if we were all sitting down having a pint discussing this it would rage on for hours and no doubt be great fun.
Don't start anyone off on immigration!!!
What does a civil lawyer do exactly? Person against Person type stuff?
Taken from the Liverpool Echo.
St Helens youth offending service said Liam appeared before Liverpool crown court in July, charged with causing affray, and was given a four-month detention and training order.
He served two months in custody and was then freed to complete the rest of his term at home.
But the teenager repeatedly failed to keep his appointments with the local youth offending team and, in line with the national standards set down by the Youth Justice Board, was referred to St Helens youth court.
It ruled he should complete the remainder of his sentence in custody.
I'm as likely to be seen at Pontins as I am to be seen in tracksuit bottoms drinking cider on the street at 10:30am.
real ale man, eh?;)
northwind
02-12-07, 02:56 AM
I love this thread. It's about a kid who killed himself because he couldn't face prison, but half the posts in it seem to be about how prison's too soft :rolleyes:
But despite that, even in this thread, this line stood out
The purpose of prison should be to punish and prevent re offending, which does not work!!
Northy, I agree.
The point of the thread was to highlight the tragic waste of a young life. Frankly I was shocked that a number of people considered the life not worth saving anyway. This is an admission of complete failure, IMHO.
Question is, failure by whom?
Question is, failure by whom?
Society!
The parents!
Edumacational tellevision!
wheelnut
02-12-07, 10:38 AM
I reckon they should put at least 3 to a cell, the 15 year old scum, and both his parents for breeding
But despite that, even in this thread, this line stood out
Northy, please explain why.
Dicky Ticker
02-12-07, 11:02 AM
All these services cost money,my taxes,police, courts,probation services,young offenders institutions and prisons. Spent on a 15year old who has never contributed an iota to society.His family will now get a £2500 death grant probably and you expect us all to have sympathay,sorry not me I would rather my taxes were spent on worthwhile members of society who want education,medical treatment,affordable housing,decent pensions but to mention a few
IMHO there are too many do-gooders who have all lead sheltered or good upbringings and never had to live with the consequences of crime who seem to think government coffers are a bottom less supply of money for "Worthwhile causes"
Every time there is a bike nicked,damaged or vandalised on here you want the culprit punished,not given a second chance to do it again and again
The old adage " Don't do the crime if you can't do the time" stands good in my books and in this case he did but couldn't,surely any 15 year old knows right from wrong and he was given his chance but chose to re-offend
Flamin_Squirrel
02-12-07, 11:36 AM
All these services cost money,my taxes,police, courts,probation services,young offenders institutions and prisons. Spent on a 15year old who has never contributed an iota to society.His family will now get a £2500 death grant probably and you expect us all to have sympathay,sorry not me I would rather my taxes were spent on worthwhile members of society who want education,medical treatment,affordable housing,decent pensions but to mention a few
IMHO there are too many do-gooders who have all lead sheltered or good upbringings and never had to live with the consequences of crime who seem to think government coffers are a bottom less supply of money for "Worthwhile causes"
Every time there is a bike nicked,damaged or vandalised on here you want the culprit punished,not given a second chance to do it again and again
The old adage " Don't do the crime if you can't do the time" stands good in my books and in this case he did but couldn't,surely any 15 year old knows right from wrong and he was given his chance but chose to re-offend
What you have to keep in mind is that there is no such thing as an bad child.
Now, perhaps some other child brought up the same as this boy might have had the strength of character not to follow a criminal path. In this respect, the boy is responsible for his actions and did require punishment.
However, almost certainly had this boy been brought up in different circumstances, he would not have ended up in prison. Regardless of his ability to decide between right and wrong, someone let him down in a serious manner.
I think in the back of peoples minds everyone understands that there is no such thing as a 'bad child'. Now, for some reason the mental leap between 'no bad kids' to 'kids can do no wrong' has been made, the result being that parents think that their kids can bring themselves up. It seems to me that it's the lack of time parents spend with their kids that's the real problem.
The fact is that this lad is dead. Isn't the rest irrelevant?
The facts are that he'd been in enough trouble to warrant putting him on a supervision order. He breached that order and ended up inside - his doing, no-one elses.
I work with teenagers, some of whom who have emotional and behavioural problems, a few of them are on supervision orders, some end up in more trouble despite this. One local young lad - not one I work with, I hasten to add - is up in court soon on 18 counts of armed robbery (street robbery, mugging, call it what you like). That's 18 counts!
If he'd been remanded after the first one, or as soon as they caught up with him there'd be a lot of people out there who wouldn't have been traumatised by someone holding a knife to their throat while being robbed of money and mobile phones. But no, he was bailed and went on to commit more crimes, and he's still out doing exactly the same thing now. Reason he was bailed...he lives with his mother. If he was in residential care then he'd have gone straight behind bars.
You obviously don't realise just what a teenager is capable of when they have no goals in life or no useful parental guidance.
So one hangs himself - it's sad, but he was the one who got himself into that position in the first place.
There are a huge number of people who have come from what could be regarded as disadvantaged backgrounds who have done very well for themselves and become useful and worthwhile members of society, young people can't keep using their bad upbringing as an excuse. If you'd known me as a teenager you'd know what I mean.
Again i completly disagree, Prison should be the single worst experiance of your life so to make you so sure and insistant that you are not going back!! not a camp where you have better opertunities at courses and qualifications than those on the outside.
A few years ago I visited HMP Woodhill in Milton Keynes on an open day, before it was officially opened to accept prisoners. My mate's dad was an officer there and showed us around. They had everything, a gym that was better than any I'd seen before or since, educational facilities better than the ones at my daughters' private school, an IT suite that was state of the art in its day, the list goes on. The cells were absolute luxury compared to the barracks dorm I suffered/shared with my colleagues when I first joined the forces.
During the trip we bumped into the newly appointed Governor, Brodie Clark IIRC, and I asked him how I could spend more time there. He advised me to apply for a job with the Home Office as a Prison Officer, he wasn't happy when I said I'd rather be on the other side of the fence because the facilities were better for the inmates.
Prison is too soft
Northy, please explain why.
In my opinion it doesn't work because prison is too soft, blame the nanny-state do-gooder liberals.
A few years ago I visited HMP Woodhill in Milton Keynes on an open day, before it was officially opened to accept prisoners. My mate's dad was an officer there and showed us around. They had everything, a gym that was better than any I'd seen before or since, educational facilities better than the ones at my daughters' private school, an IT suite that was state of the art in its day, the list goes on. The cells were absolute luxury compared to the barracks dorm I suffered/shared with my colleagues when I first joined the forces.
During the trip we bumped into the newly appointed Governor, Brodie Clark IIRC, and I asked him how I could spend more time there. He advised me to apply for a job with the Home Office as a Prison Officer, he wasn't happy when I said I'd rather be on the other side of the fence because the facilities were better for the inmates.
Prison is too soft
exactly iy takes the P a bit when the people who do wrong in this world are rewarded more and better looked after than us law obiding peeps.
yes i agree, bottom line is Prison is far too soft in the UK.
However i am sure milton Keynes is a cat C prison where white collar crims go like fraudsters dodgy accountants and alike ones that are not violent. still they should still be thrown into a cess pit and left to rot for their term.
However i am sure milton Keynes is a cat C prison where white collar crims go like fraudsters dodgy accountants and alike ones that are not violent. still they should still be thrown into a cess pit and left to rot for their term.
Cat A
http://www.hmprisonservice.gov.uk/prisoninformation/locateaprison/prison.asp?id=407,15,2,15,407,0
Cat A
http://www.hmprisonservice.gov.uk/prisoninformation/locateaprison/prison.asp?id=407,15,2,15,407,0
fair enough
lukemillar
03-12-07, 03:12 AM
You guys seem to be forgetting that prison takes away a person's freedom. IT suite or no IT suite, it still does just that.
I'm also guessing the majority of the 'prison's too soft' posters have never actually spent anytime in prison (and I don't mean an open day), so no-one has had their freedom taken away and can really know what it is like.
To be honest, I don't really care how cushy it may look from the outside, I wouldn't want to give up my freedom at any cost and I think many people here are under-estimating what kind of an impact this can have on a person.
You guys seem to be forgetting that prison takes away a person's freedom. IT suite or no IT suite, it still does just that.
I'm also guessing the majority of the 'prison's too soft' posters have never actually spent anytime in prison (and I don't mean an open day), so no-one has had their freedom taken away and can really know what it is like.
To be honest, I don't really care how cushy it may look from the outside, I wouldn't want to give up my freedom at any cost and I think many people here are under-estimating what kind of an impact this can have on a person.
No i agree a little bit, lack of freedom is a punishment in itself. But that is meant to be part of the punishment, and why should it be made any eaiser for them to get on with it?? giving them all thers facilitys is just makingthe punishment eaiser for them when my whole point is that prison should be as hard as possible to deter people. If it was a ok experiance then the deterent is not going to stop people from re offending is it?? if hey know the risk is worth it.
Having ben o ntour in Iraq and other places i know what having your freedom taken from you is like. Ok i was there with my mates and we had a lot of facilities( not to disimilaf from a prison then) but we could not just go down town, go on a bike go for a walk in the country, away from friends and family etc, we were restricted in what we could and could not do. Yes its for our own saftey as i hear downtown Basah is not the best night out. But the point is the facilities we had for us made life barable and eaiser to get on with things, while we missed family and friends back home, we dont get visits do we??
so as you can tell i dont really think your post holds any water.
lukemillar
03-12-07, 09:08 AM
so as you can tell i dont really think your post holds any water.
Good for you! We are all entitled to our opinions. I personally don't think your posts hold much water either but each to their own! :wink:
Dave The Rave
03-12-07, 09:11 AM
A few years ago I visited HMP Woodhill in Milton Keynes on an open day, before it was officially opened to accept prisoners. My mate's dad was an officer there and showed us around. They had everything, a gym that was better than any I'd seen before or since, educational facilities better than the ones at my daughters' private school, an IT suite that was state of the art in its day, the list goes on. The cells were absolute luxury compared to the barracks dorm I suffered/shared with my colleagues when I first joined the forces.
During the trip we bumped into the newly appointed Governor, Brodie Clark IIRC, and I asked him how I could spend more time there. He advised me to apply for a job with the Home Office as a Prison Officer, he wasn't happy when I said I'd rather be on the other side of the fence because the facilities were better for the inmates.
Prison is too soft
Well they call prisons correction facilities which I think explains the problem. It should be called house of hell or so. You should be fearing prison as people do in Thailand!
Flamin_Squirrel
03-12-07, 09:33 AM
No i agree a little bit, lack of freedom is a punishment in itself. But that is meant to be part of the punishment, and why should it be made any eaiser for them to get on with it?? giving them all thers facilitys is just makingthe punishment eaiser for them when my whole point is that prison should be as hard as possible to deter people. If it was a ok experiance then the deterent is not going to stop people from re offending is it?? if hey know the risk is worth it.
Having ben o ntour in Iraq and other places i know what having your freedom taken from you is like. Ok i was there with my mates and we had a lot of facilities( not to disimilaf from a prison then) but we could not just go down town, go on a bike go for a walk in the country, away from friends and family etc, we were restricted in what we could and could not do. Yes its for our own saftey as i hear downtown Basah is not the best night out. But the point is the facilities we had for us made life barable and eaiser to get on with things, while we missed family and friends back home, we dont get visits do we??
so as you can tell i dont really think your post holds any water.
If prison is so easy, why aren't suspects falling over themselves to plead guilty?
Nothing you say makes sense with respect to reducing crime at all, all you're talking about is getting revenge on convicts. Might make you feel better, but ultimately crime would rise not fall.
Flamin_Squirrel
03-12-07, 09:36 AM
Well they call prisons correction facilities which I think explains the problem. It should be called house of hell or so. You should be fearing prison as people do in Thailand!
Is Thialand a crime free paradise as a result? NO!
No wonder most people think the justice system is crap, they've not got a clue.
Totally with FS on this one, but the real point of the thread is that we should not be locking up 15 year olds save in exceptional circumstances.
Totally with FS on this one, but the real point of the thread is that we should not be locking up 15 year olds save in exceptional circumstances.
Yes!! we should lock up any one who breaks the law and shows no respect for it like this kid did.
what would you call exceptional circumstances?? murder rape?? but its ok for him to burgle and rob, steal cars etc because they are not exceptional??
He was well over the age of criminal responsability so lifes a bit*h eh??
By exceptional circumstances yes I mean murder, rape, and cases where there are good reasons to believe that the individual is a danger to other people. But I haven't seen or read anything to indicate that this bloke qualified.
Neil, the fact is that our prison population is at an all time high, and yet the rate of crime is not falling dramatically. It fluctuates up and down, but not with any permanent reduction. We are banging up more people than ever before and yet it appears to make no real difference. So we need to think of something else.
The biggest tragedy is that the fact that this 15 year old found himself in this position in the first place, not the fact that he killed himself. Sadly there seems an inherent lack of respect these days and we are seeing it most in our youngsters - but to be fair - when you see some of the parents it is hardly suprising they are the way they are.
Bottom line though is that the legal system has a punishment process and no one seems to be able to come up with a satisfactory alternative. No matter what you're upbringing is you will know that every action has a consequence and you can't change that and even very very young kids know right from wrong.
Just a shame that people feel so miserable, or in any event feel unable to cope, to need to take their own life. This wouldn't change my view that if he did wrong then he must take the consequence.
Flamin_Squirrel
03-12-07, 11:26 AM
Yes!! we should lock up any one who breaks the law and shows no respect for it like this kid did.
what would you call exceptional circumstances?? murder rape?? but its ok for him to burgle and rob, steal cars etc because they are not exceptional??
He was well over the age of criminal responsability so lifes a bit*h eh??
Another poorly informed post. We've got an exceptionally low age of criminal responsibility, most other countries, with lower prison populations I might add, have significantly higher age limits.
It's the softly softly approach BEFORE people get to prison that's the problem, not once they're there.
Neil, the fact is that our prison population is at an all time high, and yet the rate of crime is not falling dramatically. It fluctuates up and down, but not with any permanent reduction. We are banging up more people than ever before and yet it appears to make no real difference. So we need to think of something else.
spot on but surely that only reinforces my point that prison is no deterant, as banging them up is not making a differance to them. Asi said they see the risk of prison as acceptable because they know its nothing to fear.
Another poorly informed post. We've got an exceptionally low age of criminal responsibility, most other countries, with lower prison populations I might add, have significantly higher age limits.
It's the softly softly approach BEFORE people get to prison that's the problem, not once they're there.
I think out age is spot on, especially as kids are getting more wise and visious at an earlier age nowadays.
yes i do agree that the softly softly aproach does not help before, but combine that with the softly softly aproach in pison!!!
Flamin_Squirrel
03-12-07, 12:15 PM
spot on but surely that only reinforces my point that prison is no deterant, as banging them up is not making a differance to them. Asi said they see the risk of prison as acceptable because they know its nothing to fear.
I think out age is spot on, especially as kids are getting more wise and visious at an earlier age nowadays.
yes i do agree that the softly softly aproach does not help before, but combine that with the softly softly aproach in pison!!!
You're still not listening. Being locked up is the deterant. Any effort to make it more unpleasant will not yeild any results in reducing offending or reoffending. If anything it'll make reoffending worse.
Just look at any hellish despoitic regime where prison is a waking nightmare - Sudan for example. You honestly think they've got low crime rates?
Dave The Rave
03-12-07, 02:58 PM
Is Thialand a crime free paradise as a result? NO!
No wonder most people think the justice system is crap, they've not got a clue.
Note sure. You compare incomparable. I don't know what crime rate is in Thailand. I just enjoy seeing faces of drug smugglers etc when they get 30 years for 500 gms of heroin. Not like in UK ... 10 months for 2 tons. I still think that prison should be feared!
gettin2dizzy
03-12-07, 03:08 PM
You could probably shift 10 tons of Heroin in 2 months in prison over here ;)
Ceri JC
03-12-07, 03:45 PM
The fact is that this lad is dead. Isn't the rest irrelevant?
Nope. IMO what he had the restraining order for makes a huge difference. If indeed he was there for shoplifting a bar of chocolate, this is a bit of a tragedy, if it was in for stealing motorbikes, good riddance to human waste.
If 15 year olds are big enough to rob grannies, break into cars etc. they are old enough for jail in my opinion.
You're still not listening. Being locked up is the deterant. ?
yes it is but would you not agree that the more unplesent the lock up was the less likley yo uwill want to go back to it??
Flamin_Squirrel
03-12-07, 04:38 PM
yes it is but would you not agree that the more unplesent the lock up was the less likley yo uwill want to go back to it??
For me and you, yes.
For you average scumbag, no. Rational though isn't going to be high on their list of priorities. They either think they'll not get caught, or they're too jacked up to care.
Sad fact is 80% of the time they arnt caught.
So for all the things this little scroat has been caught that got him put in jail.....think of all the crap he has done that he was not caught for.
I have little patience for people like this, he was given his chance to behave, he blew it, he faced the consequences and took the cowards way out.
Sad fact is 80% of the time they arnt caught.
So for all the things this little scroat has been caught that got him put in jail.....think of all the crap he has done that he was not caught for.
I have little patience for people like this, he was given his chance to behave, he blew it, he faced the consequences and took the cowards way out.
How do you know that he had committed other offences?
Suicide a coward's way out? Oh my.
I just hope that if ever you're accused of something that you didn't do, that you get a jury without a 'no smoke without fire' mentality. But perhaps it wouldn't really matter if you were convicted, because prison is so easy anyway?
Two words for you.
Sally Clark.
Sally Clark - Unfortunately thats the risk you run with a the CPS and the odd dodgy decision made.
Two words for you.
Ian Huntley - Cold blooded killer currently costing the tax payer £490k a year..........somebody let him have that bloody overdose he keeps trying for IMO :rolleyes:
There is an easy way to reduce prison number.......
Sally Clark - Unfortunately thats the risk you run with a the CPS and the odd dodgy decision made.
Two words for you.
Ian Huntley - Cold blooded killer currently costing the tax payer £490k a year..........somebody let him have that bloody overdose he keeps trying for IMO :rolleyes:
There is an easy way to reduce prison number.......
No it wasn't the CPS. It was the so-called expert evidence that turned out not to be so expert after all. No need to spell out what prison - it's so easy, remember - did for her.
Ian Huntley - a case where life should mean life.
and took the cowards way out.
That is a very sweeping generalisation, and as someone who's younger brother committed suicide, I find it offensive. And no, he wasn't in prison.
15 is not to young to be locked up, kids grow up alot quicker these days, drinking having sex etc,
also prison needs to be tougher, its no deterant anymore, it should be so bad, that once you have been locked up once, you wont want to go back, i know peeps that are back and fore prison, and they seem to enjoy it?
That is a very sweeping generalisation, and as someone who's younger brother committed suicide, I find it offensive. And no, he wasn't in prison.
Apologies for causing offence, i have strong opinions on things, suicide being one of them.
However, in the context that I meant it, I meant it towards being the cowards way out of jail....and not in the sweeping generalisation at suicide as a whole context that you think i mean.
Flamin_Squirrel
03-12-07, 07:27 PM
15 is not to young to be locked up, kids grow up alot quicker these days, drinking having sex etc,
also prison needs to be tougher, its no deterant anymore, it should be so bad, that once you have been locked up once, you wont want to go back, i know peeps that are back and fore prison, and they seem to enjoy it?
Er, back in the day the majority of people used to be married with kids before 20. No offense, but that's a perfect example of some of the stupid conceptions people have.
No offense, but that's a perfect example of some of the stupid conceptions people have.
and you smell:smt019
my point is at 15 they want to be treated as adults, fair enough, but they cant have it both ways
bluepetes sig says it best
If you bring it upon yourself, take it on the chin like an adult.
and you smell:smt019
my point is at 15 they want to be treated as adults, fair enough, but they cant have it both ways
bluepetes sig says it best
If you bring it upon yourself, take it on the chin like an adult.
But Hovis, the whole point is that Liam wasn't an adult. He was a fifteen year old boy. A child. A minor. However else you like to put it.
I'm sure that this bloke was no angel - he was prosecuted for affray - but to suggest that at 15 his was a life not worth living, that he deserved to die, that he chose 'the easy way out', is really quite startling.
And, as I said above, if and when any of you are accused of something you didn't do, I just hope for your sake that the jury is sufficiently enlightened not to have pre-conceived ideas, not to take Crown evidence at face value, not to assume that the Defendant must be a liar, and not to jump to conclusions. But of course that won't happen, will it?? - because everyone knows that only the guilty are accused, and if they hadn't done anything wrong then they wouldn't be in the dock in the first place.
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