View Full Version : Soldier,soldier.
Pedrosa
14-12-07, 04:33 PM
Well shock horror it seems that a number of soldiers a year are being dismissed,enough to make up a whole battalion. The cause is not friendly American fire but...tut,tut...squadies with traces of cocaine and shock horror marijuana in their blood stream.
So they get kicked out for this? No "get yourself sorted sonny or else" type period? All that tax payers cash down the pan cos a soldier smokes a few joints on his free time?
I'm all for a "Platoon" type attitude to this if I am honest and a squaddie going out on foot patrol through rugged territory wih a marijuana or Bob Marley sticker on his helmet and a spliff in the corner of his mouth when being accompanied by the distant tones "White Rabbit" is fair play to me.
Am I missing something? Please discuss.:smt033
No opinion on it, They have to stay alert, be awake and full of energy at any given time....if their way of achieving this is by drugs then so be it.
If I was fighting blood crazed taliban in complete darkness, whilst already having been awake for the last 48hrs scouting them out.....i can imagine i would need some sort of stimulation. I'm not by any means saying it justifies it.....but its a different life.
phil24_7
14-12-07, 04:52 PM
With all the emotions they have to go through on duty, I think the use of drugs in their free time is fine. Some may need to replicate the high/adrenalin or face crashing off an emotional rollercoaster when on R&R.
We ask alot of them, surely they can have a little leeway on their downtime?
'twas interesting when I heard this on the radio this morning.
769 squaddies kicked out in the last 12 months for having traces of cocaine in the blood... It's not known as Bolivian marching powder for nothing :D
Incidence of drug use has quadrupled since 2003. Something must have happened in 2003, can anyone think what it might be??? :roll:
QRs state quite clearly that soldiers must not take certain social drugs, and if found to have done so then disciplinary measures will be taken. Those measures include dismissal from the services.
It's really quite simple. If you want to keep your job, don't do drugs. I wouldn't want to serve in the front line alongside someone I know to have been under the influence of cannabis recently, it impairs judgement and reaction times for a prolonged period after taking it - it cetainly doesn't make you more alert. As for cocaine, it may make you appear more alert, but it makes you more impetuous and likely to do something without giving full consideration for the consequences.
With all the emotions they have to go through on duty, I think the use of drugs in their free time is fine. Some may need to replicate the high/adrenalin or face crashing off an emotional rollercoaster when on R&R.
We ask alot of them, surely they can have a little leeway on their downtime?
Sorry phill its not that, its a guaranted way out and some rather than sign off and wait a teay where thry could well get sent to Iraq again will take the easy way out.
The things they have seen they dont want to go back simple walk in admit to snorting cocaine be out in a couple of weeks.
yorkie_chris
14-12-07, 06:40 PM
I don't like being in the general area when people have been on the powder, IME tends to cause a lot of scraps, for reasons which would never normally bother the person. (I know a few like this)
And in the army, they're all armed. Not good IMO!
northwind
14-12-07, 07:04 PM
And in the army, they're all armed. Not good IMO!
They'd be pretty useless in a war otherwise though :smt003
Pedrosa
14-12-07, 07:23 PM
I can full see where Neio is coming from. We only get to see a fraction of what is going on in the Middle East on our news bulletins. But if your curious/sick enough the internet provides a vast source of shocking images and actions. Not what your nice young British lad should be seeing whilst carrying out his gainfull is it?
But you know the Middle East is largely very,very different than Britain and maybe some can seperate the atrocities in their own mind and pigeon hole them as "Middle East".
But you know what I found more worrying? When the Army was deployed in Northern Ireland. That must have been so difficult to handle. I mean it's just like home!
Same climate, green fields, same cars and driving on same side of road. Terraces and semi's just like back in your home town. Civvies merge with soldiers on their reccy time. Yet turning any corner,or being sat in any bar could see you subject to any kind of barborous attack.
I
have to admit that would have really screwed my head up!:(
One of the difference between NI times and the stuff going on now is there weren't any random drug tests, not so easy to get caught, unless you wanted to, and the punishment was a lot worse in real terms than today. Not saying drugs weren't used back then, it wasn't the norm for people joining up to have dabbled, unlike now
But you know what I found more worrying? When the Army was deployed in Northern Ireland. That must have been so difficult to handle. I mean it's just like home!
Same climate, green fields, same cars and driving on same side of road. Terraces and semi's just like back in your home town. Civvies merge with soldiers on their reccy time. Yet turning any corner,or being sat in any bar could see you subject to any kind of barborous attack.
I
have to admit that would have really screwed my head up!:(
When i was in NI (99-02) it was starting to calm down a bit and the differance between the start of my tour and end was noticable. Admitiadly i did not patrol on foot due to my job but we use to spend every day driving around the province in civies and civy cars doing comms going to some real dodgy areas and in a way it looking like home use to lull us into a safe mind set. I can really comment on what it would have been like for the infantry doing 6 month tours never getting out etc, yes i imagine that would have done my head in to. But for Me NI was the best 3 years of my time so far. Loved the job out there.
gettin2dizzy
15-12-07, 10:07 AM
QRs state quite clearly that soldiers must not take certain social drugs, and if found to have done so then disciplinary measures will be taken. Those measures include dismissal from the services.
It's really quite simple. If you want to keep your job, don't do drugs.
It's really quite simple. If you don't want a ticket, don't speed...
...Easy response depending on which side of the fence you sit on..
Why not get them some decent kit, intelligence and support before worrying about what they do in their private time.
Speeding as a civvie and drug taking as a serving member of the forces are two very different offences, not really any comparrison.
I fully agree on the better kit and support issues, but can't agree on anyone using drugs as a recreational thing, not even as civvies.
grh1904
15-12-07, 11:07 AM
Regardless as to whether you agree with the "recreational" use of drugs by soldiers/sailors/airmen when on leave after Iraq etc, or disagree,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
It does highlight the dreadfull way that our service men/women are treated upon their return. I totally agree with the comment posted earlier about being on a "high" of naturally induced hormones etc with being on a hightened state when out there, then to totally come down upon your return.
As much as it pains me to say this, our cousins in the good ole US of A do get it right when it comes to their attitude towards veterans. Especially as the whole country now agrees that the way Vietnam vets were treated was wrong.
If a US soldier is found to have used drugs post Iraq/Afghanistan, he/she doesn't get kicked out, but is given treatment to help them cope with whatever demons it is that's haunting them.
When are our glorious (b)leaders going to wake up and smell the coffee ???????????????????
Kate Moss
15-12-07, 12:55 PM
its all well and good finding out these figures of the number of service men and woman using and being kicked out but is anyone going to do anything about the real problem as to WHY they are doing it? will these numbers actually change anything?
Drugs are more commonly used in this day as a recreation thing. It's more part of society than it once was. There is also the fact that to recruit more people into the services they have had to make the job more appealing to the masses. They have civilianized the role of being a soldier to appeal to more people. As a consequence of that a soldier is a different type of person and character than of old. They now socialise pretty much the same as a civilian. Years ago that would not have been the case.
Forces personnel taking drugs should not be tolerated. End of. All of those service men and women that have been caught taking drugs knew that if they were caught they would lose their jobs. So what's the problem?
I'm with Ape and Lozzo on this. In the armed forces, you expect discipline, and that includes self-discipline.
But there are always exceptions: if drug use is because of say PTSD then I do think that help should be offered as a condition of staying in - assuming they want to, of course. I don't think anything can prepare an 18 year old for some of the things they will see in some of the world's less friendly places. Immediately after NATO was deployed to the Balkans there were some harrowing scenes on TV - wouldn't be acceptable to air them now in the sanitised modern TV arena - and I do think that we have to accept that there is only a certain amount that anyone, soldiers included, can be expected to take.
Besides, what is the financial cost of kicking out people who are otherwise perfectly good members of their unit?
Incidence of drug use has quadrupled since 2003. Something must have happened in 2003, can anyone think what it might be??? :roll:
More compulsory drug testing?
Oh yeah alcohol is a drug, but they sell that to soldiers cheap...
grh1904
15-12-07, 01:55 PM
I'm with Ape and Lozzo on this. In the armed forces, you expect discipline, and that includes self-discipline.
But there are always exceptions: if drug use is because of say PTSD then I do think that help should be offered as a condition of staying in - assuming they want to, of course. I don't think anything can prepare an 18 year old for some of the things they will see in some of the world's less friendly places. Immediately after NATO was deployed to the Balkans there were some harrowing scenes on TV - wouldn't be acceptable to air them now in the sanitised modern TV arena - and I do think that we have to accept that there is only a certain amount that anyone, soldiers included, can be expected to take.
Besides, what is the financial cost of kicking out people who are otherwise perfectly good members of their unit?
Ed - I couldn't agree with you more.
I've often read your posts and been at total odds with what your argument is, but this time I'm in agreement.
As ex-RAF I agree that there is ABSOLUTELY no place for drugs in the Armed Forces, but questions need to be asked "WHY ?".
You commented above about drugs and PTSD - you were right on the money with that one. Is that not maybe why the young soldiers turn to drugs in the first place, or why anyone might turn to drugs.
To block out the bad memories ?????, to escape to a place where no-one can hurt them ?????
IF "real treatment that is fit for the purpose" was available in the first place would it stop illegal drug taking in the Armed Forces ???
IMO it wouldn't eradicate it completely (due in no small part to the society we now live in), but I do feel that it would make a significant reduction. Certainly stopping a battalion's worth being kicked out. Also in these days of frugal expenditure for every one kicked out, another has to be recruited, trained, given clothing etc, with the clothing etc given to the one kicked out disposed of - anyone with half a business brain can work out that this makes no business sense at all, and only costs more each year.
northwind
15-12-07, 02:07 PM
As much as it pains me to say this, our cousins in the good ole US of A do get it right when it comes to their attitude towards veterans.
Veterans they meet in the street, yes. Veterans with less limbs than they had before they went out are almost completely forgotten.:mad: And there's quite a few of those now. The US stopped releasing injury figures, they prevent news teams visiting the hospitals, in some cases they stopped relatives and friends visiting the wards- the guys were being moved to meeting rooms like prisoners, so that the visitors wouldn't see how many people were left in the same boat. Terrible stuff really.
But then, we pretty much do that too, the treatment for injured vets is often pretty ropey here.
grh1904
15-12-07, 02:13 PM
Veterans they meet in the street, yes. Veterans with less limbs than they had before they went out are almost completely forgotten.:mad: And there's quite a few of those now. The US stopped releasing injury figures, they prevent news teams visiting the hospitals, in some cases they stopped relatives and friends visiting the wards- the guys were being moved to meeting rooms like prisoners, so that the visitors wouldn't see how many people were left in the same boat. Terrible stuff really.
But then, we pretty much do that too, the treatment for injured vets is often pretty ropey here.
Didn't realise that, I'm only going by what i see on the news, and that is that the USA appear to be more veteran friendly than over here, with dedicated hospitals, and rehabilitation centres who specialise in amputees etc.
It seems as if our lads/lasses are to told that as "reward" for their service they get to join one of our NHS waiting lists (you know the ones that get shorter every year and are now so short that you get your operation a whole year before you even knew there was something wrong !!!!!).
gettin2dizzy
15-12-07, 02:13 PM
Oh yeah alcohol is a drug, but they sell that to soldiers cheap...
I was about to ask about that too. Do you guys tolerate them drinking? It is after all a drug.
grh1904
15-12-07, 02:22 PM
I was about to ask about that too. Do you guys tolerate them drinking? It is after all a drug.
Alcohol has always played a part in forces life, starting way back when men "press-ganged" in when they found the Kings shilling in the bottom of their glass of beer and went off to sea.
More recently alcohol has been used as a way of releaving stress. I got to speak to some Battle of Britain pilots, and a good stiff drink helped them sleep, even if it was alcohol induced, and then get up and fly the next day.
the ones I spoke to said that if it wasn't the nightmares of seeing a mate shot down, it was the thought of being shot down yourself, so you got sozzled to help you sleep.
I'ts not right, but I suppose the saying horses for courses or whatever it is comes to mind here.
I noticed in the US that forces charities and forces families are not afraid to shout. And a generally more sympathetic public is readier to listen. So, injuries, compensation, pensions etc are much more prominent than here.
Just look at what happens when a soldier is killed in Afghanistan. It makes the BBC news website for a day. Then 2 or 3 days later, his name is released. And that's it. Nobody wants to know - but somewhere, a family is torn apart. And what happens when someone is injured? - well, nothing. We rarely hear, but if anything the suffering must be even worse, as at least with a death you can have a funeral and move on. We don't want to know, it seems to me that for the general public it's a matter of supreme indifference. And then friend Brown pops up and glad hands soldiers, all for TV, to show how much he cares. Oh yeah, of course he does. I honestly don't think that forces welfare is high on his list of priorities.
I think that this shabby treatment is part of the problem.
northwind
15-12-07, 02:45 PM
Didn't realise that, I'm only going by what i see on the news, and that is that the USA appear to be more veteran friendly than over here, with dedicated hospitals, and rehabilitation centres who specialise in amputees etc.
That's certainly true- not least because there's a **** of a lot more of them. It's more the way the numbers are concealed, and it's kept out of the public eye and the press. There's a lot bit of hearsay in this, it comes through an american friend whose ex is in one after losing a leg at the hip and the other foot, so it's not exactly impartial... but apparently the new units that are being built are basically concealed, no signposting, no local awareness, the idea being to basically hide the casualties.
Local doctors working there are under confidentiality agreements so they're not allowed to discuss any part of the work- but of course, they're doctors so they already have medical confidentiality, so mainly what they're not allowed to discuss is numbers. The argument is that they're not allowed to discuss deployments, but that's hardly a secret, you can google a unit and find out where they are. And whenever family or friends visit, they don't visit the wards- the guys get moved to visitor's rooms, just like prison, and they're under orders not to discuss the size of the hospital, they're not even supposed to mention other inmates. And remember they're still soldiers, and totally dependant on the support they get, so most of them keep schtum.
Injured gulf vets have been discouraged from attending homecoming ceremonies, veteran parades etc- he was supposed to be attending along with a group of others but at the last minute the transport was called off, for instance, other times they're simply told no transport is available. He couldn't get to the base when the rest of his unit came home, and none of them were told where he was. Others have turned up and been turned away. Again, like a prison. They do get great medical treatment it seems- though there's not enough therapists and technicians for prosthetics, that's simply because there's literally not enough- but they're not just forgotten by the public, they're hidden.
Or, at least, this is my belief, it's not exactly hard fact you understand. I think the overall treatment our guys get medically is inferior, but at least people know they exist.
Biker Biggles
15-12-07, 02:46 PM
Great potential for the old alcohol double standard to creep in here.Booze is ok and has always been part of military life,but drugs?How terrible,must be dealt with bla bla.
Absolute cr&p.
Drugs have also been part of military life throughout history,with archeologists finding cannabis in ancient Greek trireems,Zulus using hallucinogenics to fight the British,and amphetamines used widely in both world wars to get the troops going.I recall recently hearing of the Brits experimenting with a new drug that would enable troops to stay awake fighting for several days at a time.
What this nonsense is really all about is power.Technology has developed enough to test people to find out what they have been doing in private over the last few days or weeks,and the control freaks that run all our institutions cannot resist the temptation to use this to control peoples lives.What a soldier does in private should be his business as long as he turns up for work when he should and can do his job.End of story.If not,it wont be long before the rest of us are subject to exactly the same regime.Why shouldnt we be if its ok to treat soldiers like that?
The Afgans smoke dope while on patrol with us!!
As a serving member i dont think it is right to take them and i dont knowing the concequences. but i can understand why some of the lads are doing it while back on leave. to relax etc. But i still maintain you only get caught if you are stupid or want to!! its too easy, dont do drugs before you go back from leve.
Like i said i bet a lot of the increase is from young lads wanting to get caught and get an easy way out rather than go back to fight in Iraq or Afgan again.
Besides, what is the financial cost of kicking out people who are otherwise perfectly good members of their unit?
The financial bit would have been taken into consideration but ....
.... All of those service men and women that have been caught taking drugs knew that if they were caught they would lose their jobs.
I suspect that quite a few caught knew full well what they were doing
Not really in agreement with the statement of taking drugs because of PTSD. I was diagnosed with this on my return from the 1st Gulf conflict. I can assure you, this is well catered for. Anyone suffering PTSD would not be in a position to still serve AND be using drugs. You are monitored to much.
It is as I have said before, because young soldiers are now of a different calibre than of old. They socialise just the same as everyone else. Drugs are common place and seen as a recreational thing to do. In the 'old days' servicemen and women didn't associate with civilians. It just didn't happen. Now it does.
. In the 'old days' servicemen and women didn't associate with civilians. It just didn't happen. Now it does.
Yes we did, to drink them under the table, try it on with their birds and start fights then leave!! :rolleyes:
Yes we did, to drink them under the table, try it on with their birds and start fights then leave!! :rolleyes:
Well yes, this is true. Rather embarrassingly I was of that era. :oops:
I joined in 97 so was probably the more sociable bunch. But still had a few scrapes in my time and touched a few girls bottoms i should not have ha ha
:lol: That's the year I left. I joined in 1985. :lol:
gettin2dizzy
15-12-07, 06:10 PM
I think Mr MacKey was clear enough
"M'kay, kids, you shouldn't do drugs, m'kay, drugs are bad. You see, I was at the bottom of the barrel, I was a wreck. Why, I didn't even care about money. I was wasting my life... You boys need to listen up, m'kay, what I'm talking about might save your life some day... Drugs are bad. You shouldn't do drugs. If you do them, you're bad, because drugs are bad. It's a bad thing to do drugs, so don't be bad by doing drugs, m'kay, that'd be bad."
:lol: That's the year I left. I joined in 1985. :lol:
joined at 18, i was 6 in 85. Does that make you feel old?? ;)
grh1904
15-12-07, 06:58 PM
And then friend Brown pops up and glad hands soldiers, all for TV, to show how much he cares. Oh yeah, of course he does. I honestly don't think that forces welfare is high on his list of priorities.
I think that this shabby treatment is part of the problem.
I think one of the reasons why it has taken us so long to have a dedicated memorial (forget the name but it recently opened in Staffordshire), is because of the indifferent way successive British governments have treated our forces.
Yet, other "younger" nations have had them for years.
Maybe if we had a dedicated burial ground such as the Yanks have got at Arlington, would raise the much needed awareness. I personally believe that the government puts some pressure on the broadcasters to keep it low key.
joined at 18, i was 6 in 85. Does that make you feel old?? ;)
Everything these days makes me feel old.
tinpants
16-12-07, 12:02 AM
Not really in agreement with the statement of taking drugs because of PTSD. I was diagnosed with this on my return from the 1st Gulf conflict. I can assure you, this is well catered for. Anyone suffering PTSD would not be in a position to still serve AND be using drugs. You are monitored to much.
It is as I have said before, because young soldiers are now of a different calibre than of old. They socialise just the same as everyone else. Drugs are common place and seen as a recreational thing to do. In the 'old days' servicemen and women didn't associate with civilians. It just didn't happen. Now it does.
Si, you're bang on with this. I've recently been getting treatment for PTSD - not from what I did or saw while in the forces but from my job as a paramedic. Its all about personal choice. Do you want to take drugs or not? Nobody holds a gun to the heads of these people and makes them do it. I had no thoughts of taking drugs for my PTSD at all, apart from prescribed meds. I'm now through the worst of it and even though I no longer harbour thoughts of suicide I would say I'm not finished with it by a long way. I still have no desire to use "recreational" drugs.
The bottom line is that drugs are illegal and no-one is permitted by either miltary or civil law to take them. You get caught, you take the punishment. If that means you lose your job then so be it, you have no defence.
Just my 2p worth.
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