Racist slurs

[Ol Boc]

I see that Harbhajan Singh has been banned for three matches after he called the Australian cricketer Andrew Symonds a "monkey" - deemed as a racist slur.

So if anyone calls me a Northern Monkey ever again, they are in trouble...particularly if they are shandy-swilling Southern puffs. Or Australians. Who are similar.

[Lozzo]

I'm not a racist, the ACU won't give me a licence.

[timwilky]

But Paul. You are a southern shandy swiller. As for being a puff, that is your choice mate. Why would anyone ever confuse you with being a well ard northern type

[arenalife]

Wasn't there someone (Scottish?) complaining the other day that making fun of red hair was racist?

[Spiderman]

I see that Harbhajan Singh has been banned for three matches after he called the Australian cricketer Andrew Symonds a "monkey" - deemed as a racist slur

So if anyone calls me a Northern Monkey ever again, they are in trouble...particularly if they are shandy-swilling Southern puffs. Or Australians. Who are similar.

But are you black? :confused:

I think any black person would be right to feel offended if called a Monkey and i think this thread is in very poor taste if your are supporting calling balck people monkeys, or maoning about the fact that they get offended by such a remark.

i hope i have misunderstood your point here, so please clarify before i ask for this thread to be deleted.

[pencil shavings]

But are you black? :confused:

I think any black person would be right to feel offended if called a Monkey and i think this thread is in very poor taste if your are supporting calling balck people monkeys, or maoning about the fact that they get offended by such a remark.

i hope i have misunderstood your point here, so please clarify before i ask for this thread to be deleted.

+1

but i dont really see the relevance of him being black or not.

[$tevo]

I called my best mate's grandson a little monkey cuz of his antics and got into a stupid argument because the little lad's dad was black.

[Biker Biggles]

Chill pill old chap.
Ol Boc is making a joke about the old north south divide.A cultural thing and nothing racist unless you really really want it to be.

BTW.I object to the Scots jumping on the red hair bandwagon.They are always sticking their noses into Irish issues.;)

[pencil shavings]

Chill pill old chap.
Ol Boc is making a joke about the old north south divide.A cultural thing and nothing racist unless you really really want it to be.

BTW.I object to the Scots jumping on the red hair bandwagon.They are always sticking their noses into Irish issues.;)

thats fair enough, but where the relevance in someone being called a northen monkey, or a black person being called a money in a rasist way. they arent really the same.

[FG1]

This was discussed on "the Wright Stuff".
Denise Williams was asked if she would be offended if she was (innocently) called a "cheeky monkey".
Her response was that she would be looking into the eyes of who said it to see if there was any malice involved.
This, unfortunately, supported my suspicions that an innocent comment can be made but, due to the behaviour of the recipient, it could be classed as racist.
Surely, a comment should be taken in the context of the originator and not the recipient.
I feel very strongly about the whole racism legislation and feel that the law is in support of how somebody percieves the comment and not, as it should be, how the comment was intended.
Political correctness is a FARCE..........................

[Spiderman]

thats fair enough, but where the relevance in someone being called a northen monkey, or a black person being called a money in a rasist way. they arent really the same.
What he said BB.

you know i'm laid back and easy going about most things but i cant see the point of this thread and the subject in it.

If Ol Boc is indeed making a north/south comment that WTF does that have to do with "Racist slurs" as the title of the thread says?

And please dont feel this question is aimed at you BB...its still aimed at Ol Boc.

[FG1]

Biggles, I'm from Yorkshire with ginger hair, please help me find myself :(

[21QUEST]

Spidey, I have to disagree(mostly) with your post.

Why should they feel right to be offended?

Now, I don't know the reason for Ol Boc posting(and I haven't read anything about said incident) but it does seem like, quite a few people(of all races etc), are now so sensitive, it's almost becoming a joke.

I'm sure , someone , somewhere has probably thought of me, as being too sensitive haha



Ben

[DanDare]

I think the point being made ( in a light hearted way ) was that the word ' Monkey' is seen as a rascist slur. So being called a 'Northern Monkey' should therefore carry with it the same ramification.

As I understand no one is offended by being called a Northern Monkey as its just the same as Southern Softy etc. So where is the line drawn.

Think you all need to chill out a bit.

[21QUEST]

I called my best mate's grandson a little monkey cuz of his antics and got into a stupid argument because the little lad's dad was black.

Unbelieveable that.

Well, I can my little nephew a so and so monkey sometimes....cos he can be :p


Ben

[Biker Biggles]

FGO-----Dont go there.:)
I wont call you a Northern Monkey in case you take it the wrong way.;)
Oh God what have I said?Take it the wrong way---Nudge nudge wink wink.
TAXI.:nomore:

[Spiderman]

Really? You think black people should be ok about being called a monkey during an angry outburst?

So i can call anyone from Pakistan a Paki when i'm angry at them can i? After all Paki is only shortening the name of their country of origin, right?

or how about WOG, in its original sentimen of Western Oriental Gentleman?

Point i'm making is that if you know certain words will be interpreted badly by the reciepient you avoid using it.....unless you mean to and your intention is to offend in a major way.

Dont get me wrong, i'm against allthis PC crap we all live in now days but racial remarks are not in that category imho.

[21QUEST]

This was discussed on "the Wright Stuff".
Denise Williams was asked if she would be offended if she was (innocently) called a "cheeky monkey".
Her response was that she would be looking into the eyes of who said it to see if there was any malice involved.
This, unfortunately, supported my suspicions that an innocent comment can be made but, due to the behaviour of the recipient, it could be classed as racist.
Surely, a comment should be taken in the context of the originator and not the recipient.
I feel very strongly about the whole racism legislation and feel that the law is in support of how somebody percieves the comment and not, as it should be, how the comment was intended.
Political correctness is a FARCE..........................

I very much agree with this post.

The highlighted(reponse be Denise) would be deemed laughable if she wasn't being serious....I', assumming she was. "look into eyes to see if there was any malice eh" :rolleyes:


Ben

[pencil shavings]

banter and rasism are different things, people seem to be getting them mixed up. taking the **** out of somone who is ur friend for being a 'northen money' is cool as you both know its a joke and ment as banter.

calling a black person a monkey is a detremental way is rasist, not funny and not a joke. they are 2 very different things.

i am white, but have been on the recieving end of rasism in the past, isnt fun.

i have one black friend who is always calling me 'my nigger'. i dont take this is a rasist way, because its not, its him saying we r cool.

as to the person who said they called a little kid a cheeky money, the parent who got upset over reacted IMO. u can call a black person a money in a non rasist way, same as you can say it in a rasist way.

the origional post seems to be very confused, if its banter its brought up an irelevant issuse of raism.

[timwilky]

Well my well ard jack russell has an inner monkey that makes him do stupid things. Am I no longer allowed to refer to this trait in character as an "Inner Monkey"? as I will be racially abusing my own dog.

And don't forget the 3 wise monkeys, can we no longer require that a person should be like them etc.

[DanDare]

I think the important factor here is how people interpret the word used. IE: I personally don't think the word is at all rascist, my interpretation of monkey is : a stupid person who does not think rationally and acts without thinking first.

Others may see the word as a link to a country.

[gettin2dizzy]

look at the trouble you've caused here ol boc!..... you cheeky monkey you...;)

[Lozzo]

Now, I don't know the reason for Ol Boc posting(and I haven't read anything about said incident) but it does seem like, quite a few people(of all races etc), are now so sensitive, it's almost becoming a joke.

As some people know I am of mainly Maltese parentage, most of my mates know me as 'Spic'. It doesn't bother me in the slightest, in fact I had speedyspic.co.uk as my email address until very recently.

[Biker Biggles]

But what if I called you a Valletta Monkey?
Crossed with George.;)

[Spiderman]

banter and rasism are different things, people seem to be getting them mixed up. taking the **** out of somone who is ur friend for being a 'northen money' is cool as you both know its a joke and ment as banter.

calling a black person a monkey is a detremental way is rasist, not funny and not a joke. they are 2 very different things.

i am white, but have been on the recieving end of rasism in the past, isnt fun.

i have one black friend who is always calling me 'my nigger'. i dont take this is a rasist way, because its not, its him saying we r cool.

as to the person who said they called a little kid a cheeky money, the parent who got upset over reacted IMO. u can call a black person a money in a non rasist way, same as you can say it in a rasist way.

the origional post seems to be very confused, if its banter its brought up an irelevant issuse of raism.

I think you sir are the only person who understands where i am comming from.

No, the word monkey is not racist by istelf. Add before it the words "go back to your own country you dirty, stinking" and what does it become?

These things must be in context and like i said at the begining calling a black person a name when you are angry with them can only be to offend them.
Calling a child who is playing up a silly monkey or your mate a northern monkeymeans nothing and could never be taken as intending to insult.

[Biker Biggles]

Spidi.Wasnt there an Iranian pop group called Band a Abbas?
Still waiting for the taxi.:)

[timwilky]

My sister in law is black, she always called my nephew her own son a monkey.

How would people feel about her dad known throughout the Chorley as Black Jack. yes because of his colour. Not as a racist insult. but as an quick,easy and accurate way of identifying him. As soon as you said his name, everybody would know who you were referring to. The same with the best plasterer here about. Black Dennis.

Now black jack was walking through chorley one afternoon when somebody did racially abuse him. called him a black *******. The stupid idiot was stood in a hole in the middle of the road when he shouted his insult. Jack went over and applied his boot to the side of the idiots head. Saying "I might be black, but I at least know who my father was". Yet when he has comes upto my house. I have called him exactly the same thing, to his face. but never with malicious intent. What I am trying to say and waffling too much, is the words don't matter. It is how you say them.

[21QUEST]

Spidey, I see where you are coming from. I just don't completely agree with it.

pencil shaving, detrimental eh...if the other person , who may just be an overly sensitive monkey deems it to be?


I see both sides of the coin but even here, it's difficult to agree some sort of balanced(haha) consensus of opinion. Yep, it's difficult.

Now, for all those who IMO, can be overly sensitive, not until you are accused of being a racist so and so plus more, perhaps we can say, you don't really understand.




Ben

[21QUEST]

My sister in law is black, she always called my nephew her own son a monkey.

How would people feel about her dad known throughout the Chorley as Black Jack. yes because of his colour. Not as a racist insult. but as an quick,easy and accurate way of identifying him. As soon as you said his name, everybody would know who you were referring to. The same with the best plasterer here about. Black Dennis.

Now black jack was walking through chorley one afternoon when somebody did racially abuse him. called him a black *******. The stupid idiot was stood in a hole in the middle of the road when he shouted his insult. Jack went over and applied his boot to the side of the idiots head. Saying "I might be black, but I at least know who my father was". Yet when he has comes upto my house. I have called him exactly the same thing, to his face. but never with malicious intent. What I am trying to say and waffling too much, is the words don't matter. It is how you say them.


.....but what if some other black person heard you calling him that and was offended? :p

Tim , just to make it clear, good post and not disagreeing.


Ben

[Daimo]

Sticks and stones will break my bones?

Iz it coz i iz white? Homie

Does this no longer mean I call call most car mechanics Monkeys???

[Spiderman]

My sister in law is black, she always called my nephew her own son a monkey.

How would people feel about her dad known throughout the Chorley as Black Jack. yes because of his colour. Not as a racist insult. but as an quick,easy and accurate way of identifying him. As soon as you said his name, everybody would know who you were referring to. The same with the best plasterer here about. Black Dennis.

Now black jack was walking through chorley one afternoon when somebody did racially abuse him. called him a black *******. The stupid idiot was stood in a hole in the middle of the road when he shouted his insult. Jack went over and applied his boot to the side of the idiots head. Saying "I might be black, but I at least know who my father was". Yet when he has comes upto my house. I have called him exactly the same thing, to his face. but never with malicious intent. What I am trying to say and waffling too much, is the words don't matter. It is how you say them.

Tim...thats pretty much what i'm getting at too and why i've asked the original poster of this thread to explain where he's comming from.

A lot of us have explained our points of view so far but i'm dissapointed that the person who started this hasnt been back to respond yet.

[pencil shavings]

What I am trying to say and waffling too much, is the words don't matter. It is how you say them.

exactly

[Ollie_07]

Racism is such ********. As someone else said in this thread, "Sticks and stones...."

The race card is soooooooooo overused, and the people that use it should really get over it.

[SoulKiss]

i have one black friend who is always calling me 'my nigger'. i dont take this is a rasist way, because its not, its him saying we r cool.

Thank you for that Mr Shavings - was looking to see how long till the N-word came up :P

Surely if its ok for a black person to use the word Nigger, but not ok for me as a white person to use it then surely by making me have to restrict what I sat is racist AGAINST me?

[Sean_C]

Some people are over sensitive, some are insensitive..
Most things can be put down to crossed wires, but unfortunately, not all :(

On the subject of nephews, mine is a little monkey, and no longer a little sh*t, cuz I got in trouble with his mummy after he kicked me in the balls...

[Lozzo]

But what if I called you a Valletta Monkey?
Crossed with George.;)

I'd take offence, my families are from Msida and St Julians, not the hellhole that is Valletta. You can call me a monkey all you like, George won't get cross :)

[pencil shavings]

Thank you for that Mr Shavings - was looking to see how long till the N-word came up :P

Surely if its ok for a black person to use the word Nigger, but not ok for me as a white person to use it then surely by making me have to restrict what I sat is racist AGAINST me?

ive spoken to 2 of my black friends about this, they both said they would take no offence in me calling them niggers, in the same way that i mentioned before, in a friendly way.
im sure they wud take offence if we were arguing and i used it.

people needed to not pussy-foot around the issue of race, talk to people if ur not sure on what to say or not to say.

its hard to argue that not being alowed to be rasist towards someone is being rasist towards you. i know a good few white people who call their black friends nigger. i wouldnt though.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

I think you sir are the only person who understands where i am comming from.

No, the word monkey is not racist by istelf. Add before it the words "go back to your own country you dirty, stinking" and what does it become?

These things must be in context and like i said at the begining calling a black person a name when you are angry with them can only be to offend them.
Calling a child who is playing up a silly monkey or your mate a northern monkeymeans nothing and could never be taken as intending to insult.

Abuse is abuse. To make a distinction due to a racial motivation is to be politically correct. It becomes even more politically correct when you become 'outraged' on behalf of someone else. Especially when you don't know them. Oh, and when you wern't even there.

[pencil shavings]

Abuse is abuse. To make a distinction due to a racial motivation is to be politically correct. It becomes even more politically correct when you become 'outraged' on behalf of someone else. Especially when you don't know them. Oh, and when you wern't even there.

I think youve missed the point being made here.
if you called someone a monkey in a derogetary way then it is abuse, if it is done is a rasit way, and possibly a perceived rasit way, then its rasit. if you call your friend a monkey as banter, then yeah sure its abuse, but its cool, because its friendly abuse that both parties agree to.

i always take the p*** out of my friends when they do somthing wrong, insult their ability or the size of their manhood if they miss a easy goal at football. or if my guitarist plays a bum note too much ill tell him to stop w***ing so much and :smt035

do you get the difference?

[Flamin_Squirrel]

I think youve missed the point being made here.
if you called someone a monkey in a derogetary way then it is abuse, if it is done is a rasit way, and possibly a perceived rasit way, then its rasit. if you call your friend a monkey as banter, then yeah sure its abuse, but its cool, because its friendly abuse that both parties agree to.

i always take the p*** out of my friends when they do somthing wrong, insult their ability or the size of their manhood if they miss a easy goal at football. or if my guitarist plays a bum note too much ill tell him to stop w***ing so much and :smt035

do you get the difference?

I understand the point, and I totally disagree with it.

Words have no meaning other than the message we wish to send with them. If someone says something not intended to be offensive but is percieved to be, that doesn't make that person abusive, racially or otherwise. It's a missunderstanding, and a racial element makes no difference. To say otherwise would be politically correct madness.

[pencil shavings]

I understand the point, and I totally disagree with it.

Words have no meaning other than the message we wish to send with them. If someone says something not intended to be offensive but is percieved to be, that doesn't make that person abusive, racially or otherwise. It's a missunderstanding, and a racial element makes no difference. To say otherwise would be politically correct madness.

ok, im with you now! 8)

I mostly agree with you

words are just words, its the sentiment that is important.

but it gets dificult with an issue such as rasism because it is still a very real issue and people can be very sencitive to it. so when someone makes a comment that has no racial motivation but it is perceived as, it dosent make the person rasist, but the effect on the recipiant is the same.

i dont think it has anything to do with political correctness, its just being nice. if you say somthing that is taken the wrong way, clarify your possition and thats it, no harm no foul. if the other person cant let it go, then why would you want to be around such a narrow minded indiviual anyway...

[Spiderman]

Abuse is abuse. To make a distinction due to a racial motivation is to be politically correct. It becomes even more politically correct when you become 'outraged' on behalf of someone else. Especially when you don't know them. Oh, and when you wern't even there.

Being PC imho is when its pointlessly in favour of one side without looking at the problem as a whole.
If someone called me a name then trust me that i'm thick skinned enough to brush it off.
if they came at me with words regarding my background or heritage then they are clearly being biased by that alone and not just by me as a person.

like i said before the word monkey has no significance itself. If its thrown at a person who will take offence at it due to the colur of their skin and the connatations being made to do with that then its nothing but racism.

but as a white person who has probably never encountered racism yoursefl FS or if you have in very small doeses you CANT understand the feeling of being abused in this way.
I'm not having a go mate just saying it as it is. Ive never had a period so can only sympathise to a degree with girls on that front. See what i mean?

[Ceri JC]

I think the point being made ( in a light hearted way ) was that the word ' Monkey' is seen as a rascist slur. So being called a 'Northern Monkey' should therefore carry with it the same ramification.

As I understand no one is offended by being called a Northern Monkey as its just the same as Southern Softy etc. So where is the line drawn.

Think you all need to chill out a bit.

I once refered to our programmers as "code monkeys" following a balls-up on their part. "Code monkeys" being intended to imply incompetence/ineptitude; almost as if the software was literally being written by monkeys. I suppose akin to a grease monkey being an unprofessional/lowly skilled mechanic. Many of our programmers are Indian, however, and a lot of people construed it as a racist comment, which it was never intended as.

As a Welshman in an almost exclusively English (and Indian) firm, I am often the butt of racist jokes, but I've yet to take offence at them as they are usually intended in good humour and not to cause offence. Personally I think the intent is what makes something racist, much more than the word itself (hence why 'boy' can be a racial slur and the 'you sheep-****ing ****er' can be a term of affection).

[pencil shavings]

As a Welshman....

Im very sorry to hear that....



:D

[pencil shavings]

Im very sorry to hear that....



:D


you see, the words themself arnt rasist. but if they were said with malice (which they werent - hence the smily face) then it could be a rasist remark!

[missyburd]

Web monkey/grease monkey/northern monkey - all terms I have used in good fun! And living in a house full of southerners I am often the brunt of much pi$$taking and vice versa.

Any word said with malicious intent is going to have the expected effect, I'm sure if people tried hard enough (and frequently do) any word could be used for that purpose. This is unfortunately what has happened to the English language and now nobody knows what to say anymore. Look how much that palaver on that ridiculous Big Brother blew up!

[neio79]

oh for f**k sake oh mummy he called me a monkey/ spic/ wop/ ni**er/ coon/Honkey blah blah blah SO Fing what get over it.

[pencil shavings]

oh for f**k sake oh mummy he called me a monkey/ spic/ wop/ ni**er/ coon/Honkey blah blah blah SO Fing what get over it.

umm, i think youve really missed the point...........

[timwilky]

This reminds me of a nurse who got in trouble here recently, when she said "The trouble here is there are too many chiefs and not enough indians". An Indian nurse heard her and mad a complaint of racism. It had to be explained that it was not a racist slur, nor was it aimed at anyone from India etc. And it was a well use phrase to say there were too many bosses and not enough workers.

[sv-robo]

I called my best mate's grandson a little monkey cuz of his antics and got into a stupid argument because the little lad's dad was black.
:lol:unlucky

i,m no racist,but i get really pi**ed off with foreigners who come to this country for the so called easier life.Then if somebody says something they don,t agree with or things are,nt going their way they then pull out the racist card.
My advice is THIS IS ENGLAND and most of the time we are proud of our country if you don,t like how its run then F*** OFF somewhere else.:mad:

[pencil shavings]

This reminds me of a nurse who got in trouble here recently, when she said "The trouble here is there are too many chiefs and not enough indians". An Indian nurse heard her and mad a complaint of racism. It had to be explained that it was not a racist slur, nor was it aimed at anyone from India etc. And it was a well use phrase to say there were too many bosses and not enough workers.


:D that made me laugh!

[Fizzy Fish]

Being public sector, it's very PC at my work - I was even told this week that I can no longer use the word 'chav'!

Now despite being subject to some very OTT PC-ness on a regular basis, I do think that there is merit in a lot of it. I find it slightly bizarre though that the gay guy who works for me can refer to himself as a 'poof' as much as he likes, and yet if I did it (even in jest and not in a malicious way) I would probably get fired.

I also think the biggest problem about this type of topic is that sometimes people fail to apply common sense to situations. Like in the case of a South African friend of mine who was working on a cruise ship and went up to his friend at the bar, innocently greeting him with "Hello my china" (a phrase commonly used in South Africa and derived from Cockney rhiming slang - china plate = mate). However there was a Japanese customer at the bar who took offence and reported him to the management. He was then fired, despite several members of the crew standing up for him and trying to explain the origins of the phrase!

[Richie]

Look. I-- I'd had a lovely supper, and all I said to my wife was, 'That piece of halibut was good enough for Jehovah.'

Stone him....:smt079

[Ol Boc]

Originally Posted by Ol Boc http://forums.sv650.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?p=1383767#post1383767)
Look. I-- I'd had a lovely supper, and all I said to my wife was, 'That piece of halibut was good enough for Jehovah.'

Stone him....:smt079


I find that deeply offensive.

You know I have given up wives for Hanukkah.

[DanAbnormal]

Jeez you lot have far too much time on your hands!

:nomore:

[Spiderman]

I find that deeply offensive.

You know I have given up wives for Hanukkah.

Ol Boc.... I asked very early on if you could explain your position in posting this and i see that you've simply edited your original post so it does not seem so overtly racist.

yet since then all you've done is come in here and make light of a situation you created which is a bit rubbish imho.

I'm gonna ask for this thread to be locked since you are clearly a bit racist and just wanted to start a thread to allow others to vent their anti-this and anti-that feelings.
if you had a point to make you would have made it by now. I thought you were a little more grown up than this tbh.

[timwilky]

Spidey.

Have you ever bet Ol Boc? If you had, you would know he is a top class gent. Yes a bit of a joker, but I doubt he has a racist bone in his body.

I think he attempted to make light of the monkey taunt and has unwittingly touched a raw nerve with you. Racism is offensive and must never be tolerated. However . I for one think he has done nothing that that would be deemed racist. and simply made a bad joke

[sv-robo]

Spidey.



. I for one think he has done nothing that that would be deemed racist. and simply made a bad joke


i think i would agree with that,and at the end of the day whatever happened to freedom of speech?

[Spiderman]

Tim....you've met the guy so i'm sure you're closer to the truth then i'll ever be.
What gets me is that i asked him to make his point clear if i misunderstood it yet he's taken time to edit his original post making most of this thread seem like an OTT debate and then gone on to make futher religous jokes/remarks.

Either he's just being silly and i dont get his humour or he's just pushing buttons waiting for someone to actually get offended. Either of which is dull and unproductive to our forum imho.

if he hadnt started this thread others would not have come in and vented their anger about minorities in this country and how they act or should act.

to me a totally pointless thread if the originator doesnt want to involve himself in the debate he created but simple make fun of those who feel one way or another about it.

[RingDing]

I'm gonna ask for this thread to be locked since you are clearly a bit racist and just wanted to start a thread to allow others to vent their anti-this and anti-that feelings.

Whoa there! Try a polite PM to him before launching a full blown assault.

I really don't think any offence was intended and it has sparked a generally well conducted debate. That can only be a good thing when it comes to this sort of topic. Don't let's make it personal and put people on the defensive/offensive.

IMO, of course!

<ducks for cover>

[sv-robo]

Whoa there! Try a polite PM to him before launching a full blown assault.

I really don't think any offence was intended and it has sparked a generally well conducted debate. That can only be a good thing when it comes to this sort of topic. Don't let's make it personal and put people on the defensive/offensive.

IMO, of course!

<ducks for cover>

i think your posting name is very offensive to the asian community.;)

[Spiderman]

Whoa there! Try a polite PM to him before launching a full blown assault.

I really don't think any offence was intended and it has sparked a generally well conducted debate. That can only be a good thing when it comes to this sort of topic. Don't let's make it personal and put people on the defensive/offensive.

IMO, of course!

<ducks for cover>

Dude, please read back to my first post on page 1, i aksed himpolitely if i was misreading his comments. I'm not having a personal attack at anyone but simply saying it as i see it.

if someone asked me outright on the forum to clarify something and i had nothing to hide i'd gladly clarify it.

And if i start a debate its something i want to be involved in, again the originator has not been involved in this debate expect to say some nonsense abour giving up wives for lent or something equally pointless.

if you start a debate i'd image you intend to be involved in it. Seems more to me that he decided to start a snowball rolling down a hill and sit back and laugh at where it goes.
Pointless button pushing looking for a raise from someone and if it was a new membe of this site they'd be getting called a troll in no time and mods would be deciding to ban their account.
As it is this is from a long standing member so the benefit of the doubt is given.

however this thread is turning more and more pointless dont you agree?
hence ive asked for it to be locked.

[Biker Biggles]

I think the giving up wives for Hannukah clarifies it.Its a joke,in idle banter where it belongs.Jokes dont become funnier for being "explained".Live with it as its clearly not an assault on anyone,but if you dont get it move on,nothing to see here.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

but as a white person who has probably never encountered racism yoursefl FS or if you have in very small doeses you CANT understand the feeling of being abused in this way.
I'm not having a go mate just saying it as it is. Ive never had a period so can only sympathise to a degree with girls on that front. See what i mean?

I have been assaulted in broad daylight. Like most people who are a victim of... well anything, it made me feel depressive and inward looking and I felt like what had happened to me was a great injustice. It made me very angry, much like you felt when you were a victim I'm sure.

The roundabout point I'm trying to make is that abuse of any kind is unpleasant. You might have a label for the abuse you suffered, but I don't think in the end that makes any difference.

Now despite being subject to some very OTT PC-ness on a regular basis, I do think that there is merit in a lot of it.

I think most people realise that race has nothing to do with anything other than the colour of your skin. It seems to me (and it's really just my gut feeling I'm going on here) that racism isn't really an issue for most people anymore, save the politicians who keep making a big deal about it. Quite frankly, the government constantly patronising minorities leads me to think that politicians are the biggest racists out there.

[hovis]

The race card is soooooooooo overused, and the people that use it should really get over it.

what he said.

[Fizzy Fish]

It seems to me (and it's really just my gut feeling I'm going on here) that racism isn't really an issue for most people anymore, save the politicians who keep making a big deal about it. Quite frankly, the government constantly patronising minorities leads me to think that politicians are the biggest racists out there.

As someone who has done a lot of research amongst people from all sorts of race groups (and also on topics such as gender, sexuality, age and faith) I can that this certainly isn't what I'm hearing - it's without a doubt a very live issue.

Also, worth noting that few people intend to be racist and offend someone else, but a huge amount of stuff is said that unintentionally puts the same kind of message across. Hence the fact that there's a perception that it isn't actually that common an occurance.

I think a big part of the problem in society is that this sort of topic isn't then being dealt with very well - a lack of common sense and/or acknowledgement of the White/British/Christian (or other) perspective leads to OTT PC-ness. This gets people's backs up and is damaging the very valid reasons people were trying to be PC in the first place.

[Fizzy Fish]

I think the giving up wives for Hannukah clarifies it.Its a joke,in idle banter where it belongs.Jokes dont become funnier for being "explained".Live with it as its clearly not an assault on anyone,but if you dont get it move on,nothing to see here.

As mentioned I work in an environment where it's very PC, and if i made a joke about my Welsh colleagues I would be open to a disciplinary. Extreme maybe, but I think there's something in the idea of not saying stuff to avoid setting up a culture where it's considered OK to hold those attitudes.

[Biker Biggles]

I doubt if I could work in that kind of environment.Yes we all have to mind our ps and qs and think about what we say but the kind of overbearing management you describe would drive me mad.I know its become like this for legal reasons,but its also given management unheard of power over their employees,which they seem to relish.I find it all very Orwellian and being old enough to remember the bad old days when there was freedom of speech I know what I prefere.And its not the shutdown compliant society we have today.

[timwilky]

+1 BB.

The Nazis, Stalin etc. were everything we abhor. They too told their people what and how to think. Yet in modern Britain there appears to be an element of government (National, local, quangos, etc.) who think that they must impose their political thinking on others.

[CoolGirl]

Yay to the people that are using this thread to have a healthy reasoned, intellectual debate. In my view, the more people have the courage to discuss and think about these things, the more enlighened they become.

Boo to those who've just used it to air some rather ignorant - and, frankly, somewhat offensive - opinions.

[Biker Biggles]

I feel there is a generation gap here.Young people havent got much memory of how we used to be able to express opinions openly,however contraversial.
Similarly in the workplace everyone found their own level,with the "characters" and leaders emerging and the bosses very much at arms length.Yes there were problems,and there was bullying,but anything is better than the amorphous Stepford wives one size fits all environment of today.
We have an expression for many of our younger people at work.Bland.They are ever so nice,and ever so efficient,but you wouldnt ask their opinion on anything or rely on them to watch your back when the going got iffy,cos they wouldnt understand.And Tim is right.You need dispute,controversy and conflict of ideas to progress,and totalitarian societies have usually failed for the lack of it.We risk going that way.

[neio79]

we are all equalyy worhtless untill we prove otherwise LOL

[Richie]

we are all equally worhtless untill we prove otherwise LOL
That reminds me of a book I read at school...
misquoted..
"we are all equally worhtless, but some are more equally worhtless than others."

some book about a farm some where. ;)

[hovis]

Boo to those who've just used it to air some rather ignorant - and, frankly, somewhat offensive - opinions.
name and shame

[the_runt69]

The whole bit of an Indian being banned for a racist remark against an Austrailian makes me laugh in the first place.
Andrew Symonds was called a monkey during a sledging incident playing cricket.
The Austrailians invented sledging and are far worse offenders than anybody else in the insult department.

[Fizzy Fish]

I doubt if I could work in that kind of environment.Yes we all have to mind our ps and qs and think about what we say but the kind of overbearing management you describe would drive me mad.I know its become like this for legal reasons,but its also given management unheard of power over their employees,which they seem to relish.I find it all very Orwellian and being old enough to remember the bad old days when there was freedom of speech I know what I prefere.And its not the shutdown compliant society we have today.

+1 BB.

The Nazis, Stalin etc. were everything we abhor. They too told their people what and how to think. Yet in modern Britain there appears to be an element of government (National, local, quangos, etc.) who think that they must impose their political thinking on others.

I guess you can still think what you like at the end of the day, it's just that the vocalisation of racist, etc sentiments aren't welcome in my workplace. And it may suprise you to know that it doesn't actually feel like an oppressive regime - most people buy into the concept and culture, at least to a fair extent.

You could call it brainwashing, or you could call it recognising that the composition of 'British' society has changed and that certain ways of thinking/behaving aren't really compatible with that.

[BILLY]

Spidey, I have to disagree(mostly) with your post.

Why should they feel right to be offended?

Now, I don't know the reason for Ol Boc posting(and I haven't read anything about said incident) but it does seem like, quite a few people(of all races etc), are now so sensitive, it's almost becoming a joke.

I'm sure , someone , somewhere has probably thought of me, as being too sensitive haha



Ben

Yeah hows the shandy drinking going Ben;)

[Lozzo]

Also, worth noting that few people intend to be racist and offend someone else, but a huge amount of stuff is said that unintentionally puts the same kind of message across. Hence the fact that there's a perception that it isn't actually that common an occurance.


As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I'm of Maltese descent. Throughout school, no matter where in the world we lived, my sisters I were subjected to racist bullying from other schoolkids. Most of it was motivated purely by the darker colour of our skin as most of the postings our soldier dad got were in hot places like Cyprus and Singapore. Whenever we were back in the UK we really got it bad because we went to normal schools, not Army ones.

Looking back on it now, it wasn't the kid's fault, they were just echoing what they saw and heard at home, and despite our parents being foreign, we were brought up pretty much the same. We were told that Asian people were lazy, Black people were thieves, Chinese people would kill you and not think twice about it and that Arabs were dirty and would buy and sell English children. All of it we later found out was complete and utter rubbish, but that's what we were brainwashed with as kids, and to an extent some of it stuck. As our tans wore off when we moved back to the UK the taunting stopped, but living in a small predominantly white Bedfordshire village it was difficult to lose the stereotyped image we held of other races. It was many years before I met and became friends with Asian, Black and Chinese people and to then make my own judgements on people as individuals and not judge them by the colour of their skin. We never meant to be racists ourselves as kids, we were brought up to be that way.

My dad freaked when he found out my sister was seeing a West Indian guy, and he threatened to never talk to me again when he discovered I was seeing a black girl when I was in my late twenties. It took him a year after my sister split with her ex before dad would let her into their house, she was with him for 6 years. That's sad.

I feel sorry for today's racists in some ways, it just shows to me that they have lived very blinkered and sheltered lives, without experiencing some of the wonders that there are to be seen in other cultures. The older generation have an excuse of sorts, most of them were brought up to believe that anyone from a different country was a potential slave. Today's racists have no excuse at all.

That said....I still don't like gin-gers cos they smell of cabbage...or so I'm told ;)

[tactcom7]

I have never really understood what monkeys have to do with black people and why calling a black person a monkey is deemed offensive? Can anyone shed any light on the link? I was always getting called a monkey of somesorts by my dad (as several other people have pointed out) and it never really bothered me...

[CoolGirl]

I have never really understood what monkeys have to do with black people and why calling a black person a monkey is deemed offensive? Can anyone shed any light on the link? I was always getting called a monkey of somesorts by my dad (as several other people have pointed out) and it never really bothered me...

This takes a little intellectual rigour and some judgement to work out.

I can't believe that no-one's yet made reference to the racism experienced by some black footballers, where they have been showered with insults, bananas and had mionkey noises made at them.

But then when my (black) son's making good progress up the climbing wall, I call him 'monkey boy'.

What's he difference? One is a term of endearment and praise, saying "you're doing a skilled thing that monkeys are particulalry good at and humans generally aren't". The other is an ignorant racist insult based on the lowest common denominator and trying to associate the individual with what is perceived as an inferior species and whihc happens to be the same colour as them.

Go figure.

[pencil shavings]

I have never really understood what monkeys have to do with black people and why calling a black person a monkey is deemed offensive? Can anyone shed any light on the link? I was always getting called a monkey of somesorts by my dad (as several other people have pointed out) and it never really bothered me...

as far as i know, its saying that the black man hasnt evolved like the white man has and they are still primitive apes.
which you can see why it would be taken offensivly if said with hate.

i think it has less to do with being a lacky or anything olong those lines.

[phil24_7]

What I hate is that you can make an innocent/joking comment both sent in jest and recieved in jest but if somebody else hears it and percieves it as racist then it's racist!!!

[sv-robo]

if foreigners want to come and live in this country -fine,it does,nt bother me.

what does bother me is they think they can come here and still live by their own rules
e.g
all the mosques which are built in this country,when money could be better spent elsewhere in the country.does anyone think for one second if loads of british people started living in pakistan/india etc they would start building catholic churches?.
e.g
if a woman from any country where your clothing is freedom of choice was in a country where it is,nt started walking down a street in a miniskirt and vest top,how long would she last before being thrown in prison or worse?yet they can come over here and wear their own style off clothes and nothing is said,get my drift?.

basically all i,m trying to do is point out that there seems to be a very bad case of double standards as far as racism goes.:smt017

[tactcom7]

as far as i know, its saying that the black man hasnt evolved like the white man has and they are still primitive apes.
which you can see why it would be taken offensivly if said with hate.

i think it has less to do with being a lacky or anything olong those lines.

ahh k makes some sense now, so surely to call someone an amoeba (or something along those lines) must be the worst insult of them all!! ;)

[yorkie_chris]

The main thing that bugs me about this PC/anti racist culture is the fact that it's so one sided. It does happen both ways.

Other than that I think it's just do-gooders stirring the pot for their own ends.

[northwind]

Am I no longer allowed to refer to this trait in character as an "Inner Monkey"? as I will be racially abusing my own dog.


Then he said,


What I am trying to say and waffling too much, is the words don't matter. It is how you say them.

Skillfully answering his own question ;) The context is everything. Nobody- anywhere- has said that it's suddenly not acceptable to use the word monkey to describe people, but it's always been a word that some people use as racist abuse, and it's never been acceptable in that context. What's PC about that?

I hate the term PC, it's become a weapon against common decency. You can say something like "I don't like black people... But I suppose that's not politically correct these days eh?" or "There's a woman working in that garage- it's political correctness gone mad!" and people everywhere will nod and agree because political correctness has become such a joke, and all of a sudden an idiot comment's being ignored.

What started the whole PC idea off was basically just good manners. You don't eat with your fingers, you don't push in a queue, you don't call a black person a monkey. It's not that difficult.

[Biker Biggles]

Yes thats right,and I know the anti PC case can be overdone (and I do:D),but there is no doubt in my mind that persuance of the PC agenda has been hijacked by an authoritarian element that is just as unhealthy as the old bad mannered element which ate with its fingers or blurted out unpleasant expressions.
I find it unhealthy that employers and politicians feel able to interfere so heavily in what should be basic social activity among free men and women.It reminds me of whitch hunts and religeous persecution from our history and is something to be on guard against.We accept the dictates of self appointed arbiters of right and wrong at our peril.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Then he said,



Skillfully answering his own question ;) The context is everything. Nobody- anywhere- has said that it's suddenly not acceptable to use the word monkey to describe people, but it's always been a word that some people use as racist abuse, and it's never been acceptable in that context. What's PC about that?

I hate the term PC, it's become a weapon against common decency. You can say something like "I don't like black people... But I suppose that's not politically correct these days eh?" or "There's a woman working in that garage- it's political correctness gone mad!" and people everywhere will nod and agree because political correctness has become such a joke, and all of a sudden an idiot comment's being ignored.

What started the whole PC idea off was basically just good manners. You don't eat with your fingers, you don't push in a queue, you don't call a black person a monkey. It's not that difficult.

Sexual, verbal, physical, mental etc - all adjectives to describe different types of abuse. Racial abuse isn't a type of abuse, it's the motivation for carrying out one of the abuses above. And there were laws to protect people from those kind of abuses before the advent of PC madness.

So the PC culture does little to protect people anymore than existing laws, leave people afraid of leaving themselves open to vilification for a simple slip of the tongue and further serve to eradicate any chance people have to exercise common sense. So quite frankly it's perfectly understandable that people hate the PC brigade. It has nothing to do with common decency, it has everything to do with pretentious arses in government thinking they know best.

[Lozzo]

if foreigners want to come and live in this country -fine,it does,nt bother me.

what does bother me is they think they can come here and still live by their own rules
e.g
all the mosques which are built in this country,when money could be better spent elsewhere in the country.does anyone think for one second if loads of british people started living in pakistan/india etc they would start building catholic churches?.

If you had a clue before you spouted this kind of rubbish you wouldn't have bothered posting. For your information, there are millions of Indian and Pakistani Christians (2.4 million in Pakistan and 24 million in India) living in their own countries. They have their own churches, built alongside mosques and temples. Do you know who built those churches? The British did, when we walked in and took their countries over at the end of a gun and inflicted our way of life on whole nations who had no choice but to accept it....and you complain about a handful of immigrants who dress differently to you and want to practice their own religion.

I refer you to these wiki pages:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Pakistan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_India


e.g
if a woman from any country where your clothing is freedom of choice was in a country where it is,nt started walking down a street in a miniskirt and vest top,how long would she last before being thrown in prison or worse?yet they can come over here and wear their own style off clothes and nothing is said,get my drift?.

basically all i,m trying to do is point out that there seems to be a very bad case of double standards as far as racism goes.:smt017

What double standards? There are no double standards at all. If a particular country has a law saying women must not wear clothes that show their arms and legs then female visitors to that country should abide by that law. One law for residents, same law for visitors.

We do not have any such laws in this country, women can wear what the hell they like as long as they stay within the bounds of public decency. If a Muslim woman wants to wear a full covering then I don't see a problem with it - it's not against the laws of this country. Everyone in this country has rights, equal rights, this is why the UK is such a popular final destination for immigrants.

To come out with the rubbish you quoted is a sure sign of racism or absolute ignorance.

[-Ralph-]

My 2p worth.

Calling a black person a monkey is not racist. Even in a supposedly racist context, ie: "F off back to where you came from you monkey", it's not necessarily racist. Stick with it and read on an I'll give you my example which explains why.

Co-incincidence this. I know someone who I greatly dislike (theres not many of those) due to his anti-social behaviour. An in-law of my brother in law. My wife laughs and says "he really winds you up doesn't he" and I say, "yes he bl00dy well does, I don't like him, he's a flipping primate, monkey is too nice, he's a chimpanzee, a gorilla." Gods honest truth those are the words I used to describe him after our last visit to France.

It's nothing to do with the fact he's French or the colour of his skin (he's white), it's his behaviour, his drunken sleering over every female in the room, loud abrasive voice, farting and burping, eating with is mouth wide open whilst trying to talk to you at the same time, etc, etc.

If he came to Scotland I'd tell him to "F off back to where you came from you Monkey", because he behaves like a monkey and I don't want to see him here. Nothing racist about it. Even if he was black, my comments would be for the same reason, as a result of my dislike of his behaviour and have nothing to do with the colour of his skin.

You see Monkey isn't racist in the slightest, in the above situation/context/intention "F off back to where you came from you Monkey" isn't even racist and it wouldn't be even if the guy was black.

A comment, phrase or word, such as Monkey, that is not specifically racist*, only becomes racist when it is being said it because of dislike of the colour of the persons skin or something else related to thier ethnic origin. If a black person takes offense to being called a monkey, maybe they've just misread the intention? Maybe they just talk with thier mouth full.

*(ie: nigger, WOG, paki are specifically racist and not acceptable unless you know the person well and know they will take it as a joke)

We are far too sensitive about these things. Unless specifically racist, or the person has a history of specifically racist slurs or is known to dislike other ethnic orgins, give the benefit of the doubt and don't take offense. You're not a mind reader. You don't know what the person was thinking when they said it or why they said it.

[-Ralph-]

basically all i,m trying to do is point out that there seems to be a very bad case of double standards as far as racism goes.:smt017

SV-Robo, I agree with Lozzo on the practicing culture thing i'm afraid. We practice our culture all over the world.

There is a major double-standard though. My ex, Viranthi, was Sri Lankan and I lived for 6 years in an dominantly Asian community, mostly Indian and Sri Lankan.

The amount of abuse I recieved from Asians because I was white and the amount of shunning Viranthi received from the community at large because she was engaged to a white guy was frankly, worse than any racisim I've ever experienced being directed in the opposite direction. But when does this ever make headlines?

The Indians and Pakistani's in that community hated each other with a passion!

I wouldn't go as far as to say this caused the breakdown of the relationship, but it certainly made getting married difficult and added a pressure which did not help matters.

A thought which further supports my agrument above. For myself and my in-laws who, after a year or two "eventually" accepted me completely, colour of skin became invisible, you just stop seeing it and you only see the person behind it. It's like living in a new city, after a year or two you stop hearing the accent. Therefore any abuse hurled between us on the odd family argument had nothing to do with racism, regardless of what words were used.

[DanDare]

Welcome to the Org.

Where seemingly innocent posts with a funny, sarcastic undertone turn into a ten page discussion where it is over analysed and people get acussed of racial hatred and asked to reveal their political motivations!

:nomore:

[Biker Biggles]

Thats what makes it a great forum innit?;)

[Pedrosa]

I live in Spain,here I am considered a foreigner,(quite rightly) and can on occasion be called "guirri" which is slang for a foreigner.Do I get upset or charge off to the authorities? err,no.

[Biker Biggles]

Yes but you are a Northern Monkey really.Now does that translate into Spanish as "Gringo"?
You got that 1098 yet?:D

[northwind]

I live in Spain,here I am considered a foreigner,(quite rightly) and can on occasion be called "guirri" which is slang for a foreigner.Do I get upset or charge off to the authorities? err,no.

That's a statement of fact though... Whereas "monkey" frinstance in this context is saying "You, as a black/asian/arab person are less evolved than I am and inferior". You don't see a difference?

[yorkie_chris]

But many times in this context a statement of fact is considered a racist comment.
But that's todays society, the truth hurts, so ban it!

[philipMac]

It seems pretty simple to me.
If someone calls a person something that is not their name, and that person finds what they have been called racist, they have the right to feel offended.

There is no room for maneuver.

Its up to the person addressing the other person to come up with a way to address that person that cannot be considered racist.

If it is meant in good spirit, or jokingly, then this should be clear. But, even when it is meant jokingly it can still be degrading. I know an Indian guy that wont be with a certain groups because they are called Apu.
I was there when they were all doing this, and it seemed like my friend didn't mind at all (even though I felt uneasy). It was only later, when he would not come out when that group was present did I find out that this made him very uncomfortable, but since he is a tough NYC sort of guy, he just laughs it off at the time.

So, basically, its not acceptable in almost all cases. Its aggressive, its patronising and its deeply deeply not original or funny.

I am surprised, or maybe not really, at some of people's attitudes on this thread.
It is not, it is absolutely not the same being called Gringo when you are in South America (or jibes at that sort of level), or being called Paddy when you are in a bar with a load of other Irish people, as being called "Paddy" by some very unpleasant and large skinheads when you are alone in some housing estate in Brighton.

That people dont understand that difference frankly seems not believable to me.

[missyburd]

It seems pretty simple to me.
If someone calls a person something that is not their name, and that person finds what they have been called racist, they have the right to feel offended.

There is no room for maneuver.

Its up to the person addressing the other person to come up with a way to address that person that cannot be considered racist.

If it is meant in good spirit, or jokingly, then this should be clear. But, even when it is meant jokingly it can still be degrading.

Very simple really, just think before you speak, especially if you don't know the people you talking to very well. Folks are old enough to know what is and isn't offensive these days and if there's even a tiny niggling doubt that what you are about to say could be taken the wrong way then just don't say it! And if you make the mistake of thinking what you are going to say will not be deemed offensive and it is then not much you can do but take the rap/accept that person's reaction and apologise. The chances are people have thought before saying and that's where the problem lies.

I've never understood malicious name calling, racist or otherwise. It happens to everyone, at all ages and it's not pleasant. So why do people persist in doing it? :-s

[philipMac]

Just one more thing... to all the people who are in the "well, it doesn't really offend me, so I cant really see what the problem is, its just people being sensitive":
wrong.

No one cares if it is offensive to you. You are not the person on the receiving end of the remarks.

In fact, say someone called an Indian friend of mine Paki or something, and even if they didnt mind being called Paki, it is still not OK.

I mind.
I do not want to hear someone calling them Paki. And I absolutely have the right to be offended, and to tell them.
Because it is all part of the same thing. It is all part of a gang of skinheads cornering an Irish kid and spitting names at him. It is all connected.

How is it funny? How is it anything other than a brain dead, Im-too-thick-to-say-something-actually-funny insult?
The sort of people that think racism jokes are funny are the sort of people that think candid camera shots of people tripping over and smacking their head off a shelf is the height of comedy.