Wet weather braking.

[ThEGr33k]

Nice one on passing your test.

Take care though when your riding with the weather being lovely and warm. :rolleyes:

Try not to use the front brake while the weather is terrable is my top tip. Enjoy is the other! ;)

[Alpinestarhero]

Nice one on passing your test.

Take care though when your riding with the weather being lovely and warm. :rolleyes:

Try not to use the front brake while the weather is terrable is my top tip. Enjoy is the other! ;)

Elaborate on this point a little I shall: Use the front brake carefully and progressivly in thie weather :D but with equal amounts of back brake

The engine braking will help alot

whens the bike gonna get fixed?

Matt

[Lozzo]

Well done on passing your test, now get out there and start building your riding skills.


Try not to use the front brake while the weather is terrable is my top tip. Enjoy is the other! ;)

Bad advice, I'd say learn to use the front brake in a controlled manner that won't lock it up. Most of your braking is on the front, use the rear only and you're asking for trouble. You'll be surprised at just how effective a front brake can be in the wet if you are smooth and controlled on the lever. Just make sure all your braking is done in a straight line when it's wet, don't try braking hard whilst leant over.

[tomjones2]

Well done on passing your test, now get out there and start building your riding skills.



Bad advice, I'd say learn to use the front brake in a controlled manner that won't lock it up. Most of your braking is on the front, use the rear only and you're asking for trouble. You'll be surprised at just how effective a front brake can be in the wet if you are smooth and controlled on the lever. Just make sure all your braking is done in a straight line when it's wet, don't try braking hard whilst leant over.

As lozzo says you still need to front brake in the wet, if you do need to stop in a hurry (you will one day) the back isn't very useful. I would find a nice flat empty road when its raining and give increasingly hard braking a try, you can lock the front for a moment without causing to much trouble. One of the keys is to build braking pressure so the tire is squished into the road before you start braking really hard.

HTH

[yorkie_chris]

Progressive being the key.

That works because the front end is weighted by the action of braking so you need to give it chance to transfer that weight.

Something I need to practice, but locking the front scares me.

[fizzwheel]

What Lozzo said

[ASM-Forever]

What Lozzo said

+2

If you don't use your front brake in the wet, then please make us a video for youtube. :)

[the_lone_wolf]

someone broke the forum;)

[Daimo]

People say progressive, which is correct...

But what about when someone cuts you up??? You cannot be progressive.

This is what happened to me, front went underneath, rolly polly Damien and concrete.......

ABS really is a godsend in the wet....

[yorkie_chris]

You can be progressive quickly, just that bit slower than yanking the lever back to the bars instantly.

[Daimo]

by the time you "progress" the brake back, your in the ass of the car cutting accross you.

[plowsie]

Hold up has someone changed the posts over to a new thread?

Front braking while turning is easy aslong as you do it on the know how and sensibly, use it quite often TBH, I have had the odd slide been a bit hot or too aggresive on the lever, you live and learn if you do it safely.

[SoulKiss]

Well done on passing your test, now get out there and start building your riding skills.



Bad advice, I'd say learn to use the front brake in a controlled manner that won't lock it up. Most of your braking is on the front, use the rear only and you're asking for trouble. You'll be surprised at just how effective a front brake can be in the wet if you are smooth and controlled on the lever. Just make sure all your braking is done in a straight line when it's wet, don't try braking hard whilst leant over.

So bad, that can I please request a mod to delete the bad advice?

[sinbad]

by the time you "progress" the brake back, your in the ass of the car cutting accross you.

You saying there's no option but fall off?
If you go to 100% braking in an instant, you're stuffed. Progressive doesn't mean slow. Yanking the brakes right on won't you stop you any quicker than using them only to limit of grip which is available, and in fact, if you haven't allowed full weight transference you'll never get 100% stopping power onto the road. That's why you have to be quick but smooth, not just give a panicked tug/press.

[the_lone_wolf]

back brake only? you must be high:eek::D - i use the front brake all the time in the wet, from moist days to full on rainstorms, it's still much much stronger than the rear and, as pointed out, if you don't grab at it or make sudden changes in power it works just fine. using front and back together in the right ratio is ideal, but most of the stopping power still comes from the front no matter what the weather...

[Daimo]

You saying there's no option but fall off?
If you go to 100% braking in an instant, you're stuffed. Progressive doesn't mean slow. Yanking the brakes right on won't you stop you any quicker than using them only to limit of grip which is available, and in fact, if you haven't allowed full weight transference you'll never get 100% stopping power onto the road. That's why you have to be quick but smooth, not just give a panicked tug/press.


8 years and im still learning to do it. I get a daily/weekly test of it too. (london commuter). :lol:

Totally agree with everything your saying, but its the instant reaction you need to fight.

[sinbad]

8 years and im still learning to do it. I get a daily/weekly test of it too. (london commuter). :lol:

Totally agree with everything your saying, but its the instant reaction you need to fight.

Apologies for the preachy tone, it wasn't intended.

[yorkie_chris]

Same as a few areas, the natural reaction will leave you on your ars!

You don't have to totally avoid the front brake, but a bit more forward planning and greater use of engine braking is a good plan IMO

[stewie]

When I first rode a bike, discs on the front or rear werent as common as they are now, consequently I learnt to use the back brake first to initially get the speed reducing and use the front brakes to do the bulk of the braking after that point,even do the same now, can control the back end under braking more than the front, I know Im probably wrong to do it that way but I think every braking situation has to looked at on its own merits.....ill get me coat

[Lozzo]

When I first rode a bike, discs on the front or rear werent as common as they are now, consequently I learnt to use the back brake first to initially get the speed reducing and use the front brakes to do the bulk of the braking after that point,even do the same now, can control the back end under braking more than the front, I know Im probably wrong to do it that way but I think every braking situation has to looked at on its own merits.....ill get me coat

There is a school of thought that says that in a panic situation you should bang the rear brake on hard a split second before the front. The reasoning is that it pulls the back of the bike down so there's not as much weight transfer to the front wheel when you hit the front brakes hard, which in turn will lessen the likelihood of the front locking up. They reckon that rear brakes being as bad as they normally are, you won't lock it up if you apply the fronts directly afterwards. I can understand the theory, but I've been riding far too long to think about putting it into practice when the situation arises.

Maybe I should take my old CBR6 out to a deserted access road I know and do some braking tests and practice. You're never too old to learn new skills.

[Biker Biggles]

Theres braking theory and theres what works.It makes sense to use the rear brake early as until the weight transfers to the front there should be grip on the rear that is otherwise wasted.However------
Niall Mcenzie said you stop quicker in the real world by concentrating on maximising front brake application and forgeting the rear altogether.
Niall was a bit handy in his day and I for one dont feel qualified to contradict him.:)

[Lozzo]

That's the thing, I almost never touch the rear brake in the dry, except in emergency situations when I throw all the anchors out and set the engines to full astern. Obviously when turning the bike round tight I'll maybe drag the rear slightly to help pull the bike round. In the wet I use the rear to steady the bike and to level the bike out, rather than using it as a method of slowing the bike down.

I need to re-evealuate how I ride, and concentrate on braking a bit more.

[dizzyblonde]

engine braking is the key for me. Slow down in good time, I still very rarely use the rear brake. Front brake is gently applied after a smooth slow down.---on an Sv. If you have to grab it, you were riding too fast in the first place, if persay you were heading for a set of red lights or junction. However in an emergency....for instance Mr magoo that didn't see yoooo- apply front brake asap.

just my theory and its not let me down, I could go on and on about what your instructor taught you, but in the real world...........

[stewie]

Theres braking theory and theres what works.It makes sense to use the rear brake early as until the weight transfers to the front there should be grip on the rear that is otherwise wasted.However------
Niall Mcenzie said you stop quicker in the real world by concentrating on maximising front brake application and forgeting the rear altogether.
Niall was a bit handy in his day and I for one dont feel qualified to contradict him.:)

totally agree with you, I just feel happier getting on the back brakes first cos I feel I can control things more, maybe its just me but I 'feather' the back brake more than the front I think

[markmoto]

Progressive front braking is the way to go wet or dry using your rear brake to slow down in the wet is asking for trouble there is very little grip there in the dry never mind in the wet unless your two up. For people who have just passed there test id advise them to leave the back brake alone in the wet or end up on your ear you have been warned. The idea of progressive braking is to transfer weight onto the front tyre which squishes it into the road giving you more grip, obviously grip is dependant on alot of variables tyre temp and quality, road surface weather conditions etc and this takes along time to learn and becomes more of an instinct than anything else.
Congrats on passing your test just take it easy till you get more confident dont fear the rain just learn to be silky smooth with the controls treat her like a lady.

[Lozzo]

just my theory and its not let me down, I could go on and on about what your instructor taught you, but in the real world...........

What's an instructor? I was taught by a Mr Macadam, he said I should only ever allow my tyres to touch him, as time went on and I got more experienced he extended the invite to include my knees on certain corners.

[Lozzo]

treat her like a lady.

<Swiss Tony mode>

Riding a motorcycle is like making love to a beautiful woman....

[ogden]

<Swiss Tony mode>

Riding a motorcycle is like making love to a beautiful woman....

...first you get her nicely warmed up and then then you get your leg over and thrash her mercilessly, never missing a chance to have a go on your best mate's?

[markmoto]

Lol new that would open a can of worms

[Bear]

The reasoning is that it pulls the back of the bike down so there's not as much weight transfer to the front wheel when you hit the front brakes hard, which in turn will lessen the likelihood of the front locking up.

Sorry, but that doesn't actually follow. When you hit the rear brake, the whole bike squats, it doesn't make the front rise, it's acceleration that does that. Also, what you want is gradual, then increasing pressure to the front so the weight DOES transfer onto it before you apply full braking force. What you're saying will work to an extent: applying the rear brake will make the whole bike squat therefore transferring weight to the front to make the front brake work better when you do apply it. This does not mean you don't have to be progressive with the front at the same time, as you can still lock up the front and down you go.

They reckon that rear brakes being as bad as they normally are, you won't lock it up if you apply the fronts directly afterwards.

Who are this "they" and where can I find them to give them a slap? Even with the front brake applied it is still possible to lock the rear, but rear wheel slides are more controllable, therefore if you HAVE to slide one end it's better if it's the rear. What's best of all is not to slide either of course...

Progressive front braking is the way to go wet or dry

Totally agree with you on this point

using your rear brake to slow down in the wet is asking for trouble there is very little grip there in the dry never mind in the wet unless your two up. For people who have just passed there test id advise them to leave the back brake alone in the wet or end up on your ear you have been warned.

But totally disagree with you on this one! I'm not saying stand up putting all your weight on the back brake, progressive is once again the way, but since you have 2 brakes why not use them? It may only slow you an extra 5%, but that may be the 5% that stops you hitting what's in front.

I'm not saying for a moment that either of you are bad riders, god knows I've crashed more than most in the last year, but I think this may be a case of people being taught to fear one brake or the other, which is utter crap. Your brakes are your friends! (Unless you grab a handful mid corner 'cos you were following Ibishu's bum a little too closely!)

Personally, what works for me is progressively applying the front, then a moment later progressively applying the rear. This is how I ride because I find it is the fastest, most controlled type of braking I can do. I have done braking tests using the front only, rear only and then both and there is a serious difference! I'm not saying that anyone else should ride the way I do because it may not be right for you, but I suggest trying braking tests to find out for yourself (deserted roads people!)

I hope no-one takes offense at anything I've written here, I don't want it to seem like I'm personally attacking Lozzo or Mototech, and if you feel I have then I apologise. I just disagree with the points you have made!

[markmoto]

No offence taken everyone has there own style and ideas of what works for them ;-) i was just trying to point out that for a new rider extreme caution should be taken when using the rear brake in the wet due to the very limited grip available.

[dizzyblonde]

tis fair to say everyones advice to a newbie, is given with thought and braking is a personal preference in the end, it what the individual prefers. I still say to stay away from back brakes--believe me i ride around in a lot of rain oooop north or on my travels(as in France). At the end of the day a newbie can only decifer how to use their brakes from their own experiences of riding, and practising doesn't always make perfect but near as damn it

[Bear]

Fair enough. I agree, but I'd say be careful with both brakes but not to the extent you don't use one of them! I'd also say for new riders: get some practice in the wet so you know how hard you can brake, by finding the obligatory deserted road and progressively increasing the braking each time. You'll be surprised how fast you can brake if you are being smooth. Then you are less likely to have an "Oh 5h1t!!!!" moment when something untoward happens in front of you, followed by panic braking and locking up.

[yorkie_chris]

There is a school of thought that says that in a panic situation you should bang the rear brake on hard a split second before the front. The reasoning is that it pulls the back of the bike down so there's not as much weight transfer to the front wheel when you hit the front brakes hard, which in turn will lessen the likelihood of the front locking up.

#1
The center of gravity of a bike is above its tyres, therefore any force transmitted through the tyres to slow it down it going to weight the front, and lighten the rear effectively.

#2
The force that can be applied in friction is proportional to the reaction force on the body, and the coefficient of friction, F=ma, so from this its a fair assumption that the greater the weight on the front tyre, the greater the limit of friction.

Whoever invented that arguement needs to think a little more.

However: If you do bang on the back brake first, then it'll start the weight transfer to the front, increasing the reaction force and hence the grip, so it's not all b0llocks, just the reasoning behind it :-P

[fizzwheel]

but I think this may be a case of people being taught to fear one brake or the other, which is utter crap. Your brakes are your friends!

Agreed. You shouldnt fear one brake or the other, but learn and practice usin both, both work differently and can be used effectively in different circumstances.

I've always been a massive user of the front brake in all weathers and road conditions, Its what I feel most comfortable with and I only tend to use the rear at very slow speed and if I have to brake very heavily in an emergency I'll use it in conjunction with the front but not on its own. I dont know or care if this is right, its what works for me.

Its all about IMHO rider feel and rider confidence, confidence comes from practice and time in the saddle, I'm not afraid of my front brake or the rear, what I am afraid of is spinning up the rear in the wet, but thats a whole different thread :D

[Bear]

What Fizz said. And he managed to do it without any crawling apologies for potential insults!

[yorkie_chris]

So then...

Empty road, straight line, brake progressively untill you find the limit...

What speed to start at? Bearing in mind this is more for braking in the wet rather than stoppies (at the moment :lol:)

Do you just release the brakes if it locks? Do you get any warning?

And finally, whats the chances of ending up on your rse?

[the_lone_wolf]

So then...

Empty road, straight line, brake progressively untill you find the limit...

What speed to start at? Bearing in mind this is more for braking in the wet rather than stoppies (at the moment :lol:)

Do you just release the brakes if it locks? Do you get any warning?

And finally, whats the chances of ending up on your rse?

1. Start slow, 20mph, then build it up

2. Just release it instantly and re-apply, i've locked the front three times, once practising in the dry and twice in the wet when i've glanced over my shoulder and turned back to see brake lights, both times i grabbed, released and regained control to stop in time. You don't get a warning but it's fairly obvious when i happens, if you used to do huge front sheel lockups on you push-bike when you were a kid then you'll recognise the noise instantly

3. Depends on how crazy you are, 60mph first run and snatchy brake control on an iffy surface probably increases your chances;)

[Bear]

So then...

Empty road, straight line, brake progressively until you find the limit...

Yes, yes, and kinda. You don't have to get the wheels sliding if you don't feel comfortable, and it's better not to slide at all in the wet. The idea is to allow yourself to brake without the usual reason for the braking. This means when it comes time you aren't in panic mode over something you can get away with.

What speed to start at? Bearing in mind this is more for braking in the wet rather than stoppies (at the moment :lol:)

Start slow, say 10-15 or so, build up to whatever you are comfortable with as the road conditions allow

Do you just release the brakes if it locks? Do you get any warning?

Be prepared for it. If you are in a straight line the wheel may slide a little, and yes release the brake if it starts to slide. Beware of wet and greasy manhole covers or tar banding! I'd say try this in the dry so you know what it feels like and maybe don't attempt it in the wet as you're more likely to go down, as a slide will happen quicker. Also: try one brake at a time first so you know which end is sliding. Once you know, move on to two.

And finally, whats the chances of ending up on your rse?

It's always possible. Like I say, build up to speed slowly, be prepared to release the brake you are working on at the time, and do it in the dry first. It's weird, people always want to practice twisting their throttle, but seem reluctant to practice squeezing their brakes!

When it comes to practicing in the wet, just start to brake slowly and progressively, and increase the power of your braking as you get more confident with it. We are ALWAYS talking about a progressive squeeze rather than a grab, as a grab will almost invariably have you on your rse! You'll be surprised how fast you can stop. The main point is that you are practicing it when it isn't critical, so when it is it's easier.

Funnily enough, I need to practice this on the Kwak soon as it's very different to the SV!

[yorkie_chris]

a grab will almost invariably have you on your rse!


I know; had my 125 a week when grabbing the front brake on some of that overbanding sh1te left 5 of my carpal bones in about 12 pieces. That was kinda sore.

Always trained for how to overcome panic situations, to train in a response, which all the training I've done so far seems to involve how to remove someones teeth instead of panicking.
This seems like the same thing just the bike.

[Lozzo]

I hope no-one takes offense at anything I've written here, I don't want it to seem like I'm personally attacking Lozzo or Mototech, and if you feel I have then I apologise. I just disagree with the points you have made!

No offence taken. I just voiced an opinion I'd heard elsewhere, giving their reasons why it should work. I've never tried it myself, but thought I'd add a little something to the mix and see what the response was.

[skidmarx]

IMO, a lot of half truths here and some bad advice mixed in, no way I would even think of relying on the back to anything apart from get me round a u turn. The front is where the braking force is at any speed over 20ish, the problem here is that you feelthat you have more control when using the back cos you have more options when it goes wrong. However weight is thrown forward if your actually slowing down and then friction is your friend. Exploiting that can only be done on the front wet or dry, the problem is that when it goes wrong, as we all know it goes wrong quick! So if your good, which trust me I ain't, then front all the way. If your like most of us then use the back in proportion to the front according to your level of skill. And remember that there are no rules, just a learning curve that were all on, and always will be on no matter how good we think we are. Having said that, please amend the advice along the lines of 'only use the back in the wet' cos its just plain wrong imho

[ThEGr33k]

Hold up has someone changed the posts over to a new thread?

Front braking while turning is easy aslong as you do it on the know how and sensibly, use it quite often TBH, I have had the odd slide been a bit hot or too aggresive on the lever, you live and learn if you do it safely.

I did post to a thread... I think.

As for braking into corners... In the dry yea its fun, easy and controlable, but in wet with potental diesel/oil spills (which you cant always see) you are asking to be thrown up the road!

someone broke the forum;)

Idd :rolleyes:

+2

If you don't use your front brake in the wet, then please make us a video for youtube. :)

Its EASY. Keep your distance (like you should) and use the engine to brake for you. I can do it dead easy. I would post on youtube if I could. I have no camera or mount.

engine braking is the key for me. Slow down in good time, I still very rarely use the rear brake. Front brake is gently applied after a smooth slow down.---on an Sv. If you have to grab it, you were riding too fast in the first place, if persay you were heading for a set of red lights or junction. However in an emergency....for instance Mr magoo that didn't see yoooo- apply front brake asap.

just my theory and its not let me down, I could go on and on about what your instructor taught you, but in the real world...........

I agree.

I have had it tuck on me twice from using the front brake. I wasnt even using it hard... Liturally shaving speed off, not trying to stop hard at all. Once on diesel and once on dirt/mud from a tractor, both of which was difficult to see when i looked while stood next to it before you say anything, Infact someone said oh there was a diesel spill there yesterday before i could see it. The only reason I mentioned it is to save people the grief I had to go through. Its so easy to do esp if you havnt been riding long. Its easy to get away without using the front imo.

Engine braking is the best way. Youll get down to 20MPH very quickly and then the back will finish it off to 0mph without any issues.

In summer I am one of the late brakers its fun, its easy then to see that there is a nice serface to stop on so I consider it safe practice.

I dont see the point in been overly aggressive when the weather isnt good. I have nothing to prove by it so when the weather is bad I ride with a good distances, start to brake with plenty of time and just generally try to keep the bike right side down.

Please just take care if you are using the front in bad weather!

[metalmonkey]

I'm a new rider, only started last May, but I love my bike and have ridden over 5000 miles since then, I have ridden in everything but snow....

For me if its contolled (not an oh crap and something has pulled out in front me of me) I may drop down a gear apply the front then then the rear and then apply the front harder.

The idea being putting the weight of the bike down the folks, so I'm stopping on my powerful front brakes, my front tyre is gripping the road, then the rear slows again, then the front now gripping slows me totally.

This is how I was taugh to ride. Is it right I don't know, has it saved me and me bike for sure, on several occasions. If anyone has any suggesions on how to improve my braking then go ahead.

I'm looking and planning a lot more than I did now as well, so in the mind set of what if that car moves, or I know for fact that car hasn't seen me, as happned tonight. I was bit ****ed off and pointed out to the driver they had nearly knocked me off stuipd cow:smt013

I have no idea what was going in my mind, but I grabbed the front in the wet last w/end it just went, I manage to hold it but scared myslef in the process. I was totally ****ed off though casue I was still dealing with my car and upset.

[ThEGr33k]

I have no idea what was going in my mind, but I grabbed the front in the wet last w/end it just went, I manage to hold it but scared myslef in the process. I was totally ****ed off though casue I was still dealing with my car and upset.


Id say you were lucky there! So often there is no saving it when the front loses grip.

[fizzwheel]

stuff

For the purposes of discussion,

Do you think that your offs were caused by the front brake or a mixture off

1. Not reading the road properly.
2. Going to fast for the road conditions.
3. Poor application of the front brake.

Ask yourself honestly, do you think that if you were more practised in braking and using the front brake / rear brake together that you could have avoided those accidents.

As for engine braking yes you can slow right down to crawling speed but it takes time to do so, I would hazard a guess that on the same piece of wet road, a rider that was proficient and confident in the use of the front brake would stop in less distance and in just as controlled manner than you would just be using the engine braking / rear brake to stop you.

Its all very well planning ahead, but sometimes stuff happens and you need to take emergency / avoiding action even on a wet road using the front brake properly will see you stop or scrub more speed off than just relying on the engine braking or the rear brake by itself will.

I realise and I know that grabbing a handful will see you on the floor quickly, this is why you have to practice braking and get used to the feel and find where the limit is. So that if you do have to use it you know what to do and don't panic and wake up in a ditch or worse.

Personally as I said before I think you rob yourself of a valuable tool by being afraid of or just not using the front brake properly its your best tool for stopping. I read the Nial McKenzie thing about braking in TWO also and he said IIRC if you're only going to use one brake, use the front. There was even a picture of him pulling a stoppie in the wet... yes I know he is a skilled rider and more skilled than I will ever be, but it does prove what you can do if you know what you are doing.

I agree about being more cautious and gentle in the wet etc and I know its easier to recover from a wheel rear lockup, but again being proficent with the front / rear brake wont get you into that situation in the first place.

As a general note, seems to be a general consensus that engine braking is the holy grail and its not. I think its bl**dy dangerous to only rely on one technique / method to slow down. You want as many tools / techniques in your arsenal IMHO.

[northwind]

engine braking is the key for me. Slow down in good time, I still very rarely use the rear brake. Front brake is gently applied after a smooth slow down.---on an Sv. If you have to grab it, you were riding too fast in the first place, if persay you were heading for a set of red lights or junction. However in an emergency....for instance Mr magoo that didn't see yoooo- apply front brake asap.


The way I see it, if you don't use the brakes much, when you have to use them you're going to be less practiced in using them.

I think there's some sense in the idea of not using the rear brake if you're not fully comfortable on the bike- if you've only got so much brain power to devote to braking, put it where it counts. So when you're relatively new it can make sense as a stop-gap, since it's better to get, say, 50% efficiency from the front than 25% efficiency from both ends.

There's a common theme on US forums saying basically, "Never use the back brake", along with its friends "Rossi never uses the back brake, why should I?" and "When you're using the front properly the back wheel will be in the air" which makes me want to hurt people.

[metalmonkey]

Id say you were lucky there! So often there is no saving it when the front loses grip.

I would like to think it was skill, who knows, but I do know if you panic then things go wrong, I commute a lot so pratice riding very slowly when I filter through tight gaps, so I think that I have balance and good bike control.

This might crap as not many of have seen me ride, but what I'm doing is working, I just want to make it good, ideally be the best I can.

That was the first time I locked the front. The hardest thing for a newer rider is, to work out what is crap advice and what works. I don't want to try something and end up on the floor.........

[ThEGr33k]

For the purposes of discussion,

Do you think that your offs were caused by the front brake or a mixture off

1. Not reading the road properly.
2. Going to fast for the road conditions.
3. Poor application of the front brake.

Ask yourself honestly, do you think that if you were more practised in braking and using the front brake / rear brake together that you could have avoided those accidents.

As for engine braking yes you can slow right down to crawling speed but it takes time to do so, I would hazard a guess that on the same piece of wet road, a rider that was proficient and confident in the use of the front brake would stop in less distance and in just as controlled manner than you would just be using the engine braking / rear brake to stop you.

Its all very well planning ahead, but sometimes stuff happens and you need to take emergency / avoiding action even on a wet road using the front brake properly will see you stop or scrub more speed off than just relying on the engine braking or the rear brake by itself will.

I realise and I know that grabbing a handful will see you on the floor quickly, this is why you have to practice braking and get used to the feel and find where the limit is. So that if you do have to use it you know what to do and don't panic and wake up in a ditch or worse.

Personally as I said before I think you rob yourself of a valuable tool by being afraid of or just not using the front brake properly its your best tool for stopping. I read the Nial McKenzie thing about braking in TWO also and he said IIRC if you're only going to use one brake, use the front. There was even a picture of him pulling a stoppie in the wet... yes I know he is a skilled rider and more skilled than I will ever be, but it does prove what you can do if you know what you are doing.

I agree about being more cautious and gentle in the wet etc and I know its easier to recover from a wheel rear lockup, but again being proficent with the front / rear brake wont get you into that situation in the first place.

As a general note, seems to be a general consensus that engine braking is the holy grail and its not. I think its bl**dy dangerous to only rely on one technique / method to slow down. You want as many tools / techniques in your arsenal IMHO.


I never said "stuff" :confused:

I do use the front brake, Only when I have to. Ive seen the things about doing stoppies in the wet. I know its all about loading the front. Nial knew that there isnt anything on the road that could effect grip. Diesel isnt always visible (which I did say in my last post), ill bet if you tried that on diesel he'd be on his side... unless his skill stretches to levitation.

Yes you are right if I used the front brake in every instance then I can brake later and stop faster, I do that in the dry when the risk is reduced, more grip + diesel isnt as slippy in dry, arguably not slippy at all in the dry. You see its all about risk management, whats the point in putting yourself at more risk by braking late in the wet. If im already slowing down when something pulls out then ill have more time to react than someone just starting to brake.

Some people will be lucky and brake late on their front brakes and never have the bad luck of bad road surface from spills etc, others like me could be unlucky and come across bad surfaces and down the bike.


1. Not reading the road properly.
2. Going to fast for the road conditions.
3. Poor application of the front brake.


1. Couldnt see the hazard (as I said in my post above).
2. Was going 30MPH in a 30 zone... Cant see how that was too fast.
3. Like I mentioned I liturally pulled it to JUST biting, bam down I go. How else can I apply it? Diesel is STUPID slippy in the wet, Id argue worse than Ice, Ive riden on ice, 2 wheel slides arnt fun!

So my basic points will be:-

You can use the front but why would you need to if you slow down earlier and safer (however you look at it)?

Slowing down earlier will give more time to adjust for upcomming events.

You have more control over a rear wheel slide than a front.

Engine braking rarely locks up the wheel if you use the gears right and does stop you quickly enough if you start to stop at the right point.

[ThEGr33k]

I would like to think it was skill

Seriously if you were on diesel you would be on the floor watching your bike go the other way before you can say "Oh dear". It is THAT bad! There simply is no skill in it.

On normal road conditions then nice one you realised it was locked up and let it off. Skill emplies you knew exactly what you were doing and what to do to correct it, my guess is you reacted instinctivly and it fixed the problem.

[northwind]

Disagree, I've locked the front on diesel and saved it, you just have to catch it very fast and be going in pretty much a straight line. A lot of luck helps ;)

Trouble is, saving a front end slide is a hard skill to learn, because you don't slide the front end very often. I had a good trainer bike- my Virago had really crude front brakes and a cheap far eastern skinny front tyre, combined with very low weight and a very low centre of gravity, so I used to lock it up alarmingly often but it was easy to save. Not sure if that's helped with the SV or not, but I think it has.

[plowsie]

Since becoming a lot matureer on the bike I now ride reasonably quick but safely(in my eyes) in all weathers and still use my front brake in it all and never have I had the thing cause me to have an accident unless it was summit really silly, like missing a bend on ice(i just didnt see it).

The greek...what happens when your out on roads you do not know, fast a-roads...and you hit a bend you thought you wouldnt hit. Are you going slow enough to use rear brake and engine braking to get you round that bend? I find i go into bends on roads i know like the back of my hand with the brake on and leant, even in wet. Its jsut the way i ride...

Incidently if i am riding somewhere i dont know, normally my vision aids me and I dont often use brakes that much at all...if a bend tightens and i didnt think i would, then yes its rear brake for me to get it in and round, but sometime i use front, mostly in wet, mainly as I am more confident in front wheel not sliding than rear, as my second and last off was combination of oil and rear brake.

Just the way i am....

[plowsie]

2 wheel slides arnt fun!
Oh they are :D

[ThEGr33k]

Disagree, I've locked the front on diesel and saved it, you just have to catch it very fast and be going in pretty much a straight line. A lot of luck helps ;)




Mine was on a slight bend so it litually went from under me. Like someone pulling a sheet from under you is the best comparison.

Using the front going into corners in the wet is especially silly imo. This is where there is most chance of diesel spills and you lost the front while banked over even the a little... Well Ill let you find that one out for yourself. :rolleyes:

Natural reaction front brake, not the best idea and looking back i think i could've maneuvered around him :sad: So me and my pillion skittle down the road towards his car...

Not trying to be a ****, but thats exactly what im talking about. I know it was an emergancy and you throw the brake on too quick so it isnt quite the same. The end result is. loss of grip and a trip down the road on your ****. :(


I suppose im never going to get anyone to change their riding style from sharing my exp. So all ill say is becareful and good luck out there!

[sinbad]

I think we'll all agree that if the conditions are slippy and there's diesel about you want to be doing as little braking as possible. I'm such a pansy around junctions and roundabouts when the roads are slick. I try not to have to brake and simply trail the rear oh so gently, just to light the brake light really. I've had twitches and snaps and front locks, and it can happen in a flash. The worst part (to me) is it's near impossible to generate any tyre temperature around town. If I can use the brake harder from a decent speed I will, just to try (in vain probably) to get some tyre temperature.

[ThEGr33k]

I think we'll all agree that if the conditions are slippy and there's diesel about you want to be doing as little braking as possible. I'm such a pansy around junctions and roundabouts when the roads are slick. I try not to have to brake and simply trail the rear oh so gently, just to light the brake light really. I've had twitches and snaps and front locks, and it can happen in a flash.

Exactly :thumbsup:

[plowsie]

Not trying to be a ****, but thats exactly what im talking about. I know it was an emergancy and you throw the brake on too quick so it isnt quite the same. The end result is. loss of grip and a trip down the road on your ****. :(
Note my post earlier talking about how now i am maturer, that was when i started out on the SV really, and it was down to a bald front tyre(no tread neary all over) and cold roads and me snatching. Now i keep on top of things like that :)

[northwind]

To lighten the tone: A picture of a Northwind, blissfully unaware that in less than 1 minute and 20 seconds he's going to lose the front end on braking. Just look at that posture :)

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i264/Northwindlowlander/me.jpg

[ThEGr33k]

:mrgreen:

[tomjones2]

To me its pretty simple really. Measure the distance in the wet or dry using the rear only and then the front only, I should hope that the front will stop you a lot quicker, personally the only time I dont use the front is on extremly slipery surfaces so diesel, oil, ice, gravel etc. Engine breaking on the sv is good but its not really a proper brake, but that just my me of course.

Twice I have locked my front brake under proper panic breaking, its suprising how far you can go in the dry with the front wheel locked, as long as you are on a straight flat road. I havn't found a way to train for panic breaking yet though, but i'm moving to london so will get some practice there.

[plowsie]

Slam the anchors on full pelt, shut yer eyes and hope for the best!

HTH

[Pedro68]

Ok, thought I'd join in the fun here ...

Firstly, I'm with a few others on here ... I ride like a pansy in the wet. Carefully, and as smooth as possible, so that when I have to brake it's never (or as close to never as possible) ... an emergency, and therefore my chances of locking wheels are greatly reduced.

I've had a few slips n slides in the wet, and on diesel and it's the least fun thing you can do on a bike (well apart from coming off) IMO.

As for braking advice ... I've only been riding just over a year so I ain't really in any position to offer up any advice of my own ... just what I was taught by my riding school and what I've read on the subject.

During my DAS I was told no matter what the weather it should be front brake first, smooth but quick - progressively harder on the brake, but a split second after applying the front, to apply the rear in the same manner, but to a lesser extent ... in the wet, though, that should be an even lesser extent to the point at which you are almost not using any of the rear braking at all.

Now, from an article in Bike, by a very respectable ex-motorbike cop ... who basically says ...

You have 2 brakes so I don't hold with all this theory about hardly touching the rear in the wet ... 2 brakes are better than 1 so why not LEARN to use them both!?

He also said that you should find a stretch of road and practice ... and practice OFTEN, and in different weather/road conditions, so that when you HAVE to do it in an emergency it becomes like 2nd nature (muscle-memory).

And finally, how many of you have practiced emergency braking from the speeds that you NORMALLY ride at?

I found that last one a particularly sobering thought ... Last time I practised an emergency stop was shortly after my test and I was doing no more than 30mph ... and yet I regularly (not these days, someone shouts!) ride at NSL ... yet I have absolutely no idea what my stopping distance is on a bike from 70mph ... in ANY road conditions :( so maybe I should get myself out there and start practising that on those ever-so-empty motorways :rolleyes:

The whole article about braking was very interesting and included a little bit of math about if you learnt to apply the rear in different ratios to the front, how much extra braking that could give from say 50mph, and how much sooner that would stop you ... something like, progressive braking using both brakes (50:50, rather than say 60:40 in favour of front) from that speed might actually save you 20ft (something like that?!) ... which could be the difference between stopping short of that car in front, or going straight into the back of it ... don't quote me on those figures tho ... I'll have to see if I can dig out the article (I think it was last Octobers issue, but not sure about that either)

[sinbad]

In the summer I was reading "Sport Riding Techniques" and it prompted me to go out and practice. I did an "emergency" stop from high speed in the dry, circa 80mph, and it was an eye opener, but it was amazing how quickly I got used to the sensation. It made me so much more confident. I also did some, although not from as high a speed or with as much commitment, in the wet. It's nothing like a real emergency stop, but it does wonders for your confidence. Been too long since I practiced.

[monkey]

Who passed their test? Where's the first post? What are brakes?

I use the sole of my boots a la the flintstones. I find that it stabilises the bike and I've never had either wheel lock up!
:D

[tomjones2]

Who passed their test? Where's the first post? What are brakes?

I use the sole of my boots a la the flintstones. I find that it stabilises the bike and I've never had either wheel lock up!
:D

Rubbing your feet against the wheels works so much better ;)

[Durbs]

Wow, reading through this thread shows a ton of different techniques but i'm glad i'm not alone in the dodgy 'never touching the front brake' brigade. I know its not the way to do it and it goes against everything i was taught but following a low speed front wheel lockup not so long ago on a dry road i've just lost the bottle to touch it when i'm doing any decent speed.

If it immediately locks at 15mph in the dry when i've not even given it a good squeeze then i'm worried what would happen at 60mph. Gotta get out and get into the habit of using it again as i never had any problems with the front in the past. Just this one incident made me think f*ck that, its engine braking and hard back brake from now on. Back wheel slides are easy to control and even fun sometimes but theres going to come a time when some nob pulls out and i've got to slam on the front anchors big style so i need to get out of this habit.

Need the practice so's i can work out when to actually try stopping in an emergency and when to just bin the bike and jump clear in the direction of the softest landing.

[RingDing]

I don't quite know how to put this so please don't take offence. Can anyone not using the front brake, in wet or dry, please either:

a) practice using your front brake in emergency stops, building up the amount of braking force you use slowly. Use a predictable road surface but don't be terrified of a front wheel lock whilst you are upright and braking in a straightline. If you release the brake straight away it will all come back in line.
or
b) get some more training.

Riding and not using the front brake is lunacy and is putting you and other road users at risk.

I had a newbie on a ride out with me who crashed as he was only using the rear brake in greasy winter conditions. It locked, he released it and reapplied it, it locked, he released it and he was out of road. If he'd have used the front he'd have stopped in time. Back wheel skids may be easy to control but you don't have to brake hard for them to occur. In an emergency you are extremely unlikely to stop in time.

I couldn't believe it when 'my' newbie said he hadn't been using the front brake.

[ASM-Forever]

I don't quite know how to put this so please don't take offence. Can anyone not using the front brake, in wet or dry, please either:

a) practice using your front brake in emergency stops, building up the amount of braking force you use slowly. Use a predictable road surface but don't be terrified of a front wheel lock whilst you are upright and braking in a straightline. If you release the brake straight away it will all come back in line.
or
b) get some more training.

Riding and not using the front brake is lunacy and is putting you and other road users at risk.

I had a newbie on a ride out with me who crashed as he was only using the rear brake in greasy winter conditions. It locked, he released it and reapplied it, it locked, he released it and he was out of road. If he'd have used the front he'd have stopped in time. Back wheel skids may be easy to control but you don't have to brake hard for them to occur. In an emergency you are extremely unlikely to stop in time.

I couldn't believe it when 'my' newbie said he hadn't been using the front brake.

+1

It terrifies me when i hear that people won't use the front brake, but i wasn't sure how to convey my feelings without causing offence.

[Durbs]

+1

It terrifies me when i hear that people won't use the front brake, but i wasn't sure how to convey my feelings without causing offence.

I wouldnt take offence about being told i was in the wrong as i know how i'm currently using the brakes aint the way i should be doing it.

Sure lots of people go through the same thing, getting bit by something like a slide and then losing confidence is something most newbies go through. The importance is realising what the problem is and how to correct it.

Goes back to DAS training, we really need a decent bit of braking from real road speeds in there, the 10 mph emergency stop is not use whatsoever. I could have stopped the bike with my feet at the speeds we used to do emergencies at. Heard they are bringing in more high speed stuff in the new tests so hopefully noobs will get a better grounding in that sort of stuff.

[Pedro68]

Goes back to DAS training, we really need a decent bit of braking from real road speeds in there, the 10 mph emergency stop is not use whatsoever. I could have stopped the bike with my feet at the speeds we used to do emergencies at. Heard they are bringing in more high speed stuff in the new tests so hopefully noobs will get a better grounding in that sort of stuff.
Could also be the place you do ya training at too cos we were required to do our practice emergency stops from 20mph - 30mph. Plus, some of us were fortunate enough to have to practice one on our lessons due to some idiot cager :rolleyes: LOL

I'm not one to talk though ... as since my test I've only ever had to perform 4 "emergency" stops:
1. from 35mph whilst filtering - didn't stop in time - hit pulling out vehicle and ended up on going ar$e-over-t*t and landing on my back :(
2. from 45mph on a blind bend when I discovered there was a junction just round the bend ... I now know what braking whilst cranked over can do :oops: ... had I known there was no traffic coming from the right, I should have just leant a bit further and carried on ... and perhaps I wouldn't have slid on my ar$e out in front of the van (stopped) about to turn right into the junction I just flew out of :oops:
3. approaching traffic lights @ about 30mph - amber not working - suddenly went red, and managed to do a small stoppie (front brakes are quite powerful enough on the SV :D)
4. went through traffic lights with an eye on what was in my mirrors and not the car in front of me about to turn right. I managed to lock up at least one wheel, but released the brake levers (when my brain was telling me otherwise), and managed to keep it upright.

I hope I never have to perform an emergency stop from greater speeds, but one thing is for sure, I will be out practising as soon as I can ... 'cos ya never know when you might need to.

[John 675]

i find if you have to brake hard.. as has been said a million times that fast progressive breaking is a skill that is esential to learn and 100% if you plan to race, i find leaning over the front can give you a better stopping distance as your pushing the tire into the road more so, but have a good set of rubber on for this one

[jambo]

From the "Hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy": "Don't Panic"

Everything else is down to practise and confidence, but when I'd not been riding long I remember marvelling at pictures in Bike or Martin Child pulling an enormous stoppie on a thundercat with Bridgestone 020s on a sodden track. It's possible, there's plenty of grip there, it's just that there's a bigger gap between poor and good surfaces in the wet and you need to be smooth applying load to the tyre. You can be smooth quickly ;)

[Durbs]

From the "Hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy": "Don't Panic"


They should replace all the 'Dont drive under the influence' warning stickers plastered all over the SV fairing with that little nugget instead :cool:

[G]

i find if you have to brake hard.. as has been said a million times that fast progressive breaking is a skill that is esential to learn and 100% if you plan to race, i find leaning over the front can give you a better stopping distance as your pushing the tire into the road more so, but have a good set of rubber on for this one


You risk the back wheel lifting or becoming light doing this surely, which could result in locking up unless you have a slipper clutch, drifting and no doubt highsiding at some point etc.

I'm not sure how i break to be fair never really though about it in massive amounts of detail, its seems to work though. I use the same concept as I ever did in my car when racing/trackdaying. Late hard breaking and an instinct for knowing when your rubber is on the very very edge of grip.


As for what technique in wet weather, I brake much the same as normal but with a beady eye out for drains/diesel/white lines/joints in tarmac. I probably instinctively brake smoother and I'm less likely to brake late or trail into corners.

Depends on how wet and what type of wet to be fair. If its summer wet after a long dry period and its grease city the I'm careful. If its been raining for a few day in the summer and the roads are clean of dust like on the MITGS ride out last summer where we ended up riding through ankle height flooded roads at 80mph then I ride almost as I would in the dry bar drains etc.

You brake and ride in the wet as your confidence and mind allows.

[Blue_SV650S]

Wow 8 pages!! :shock:

I have only read a handful of the posts, but it has certainly caused debate ...

Personally I think categorically saying no-front is a little naive ... its a bit like in the past when something is unexplainable stating 'god did it' ... or 'witch'!!! :D

Am I the only one that enjoys playing with grip in the wet? I still tend to use plenty of front brake and excessive rear brake (for the conditions) ... this has the tantalising effect of getting the back end out ...

I actually find playing in this manner is a tool to understand how much grip is available on that given day (I ride exactly the same roads/route every day).

[fizzwheel]

mind allows.

And this IMHO is the biggest limiting factor in wet weather riding and in all riding.

[John 675]

You risk the back wheel lifting or becoming light doing this surely, which could result in locking up unless you have a slipper clutch, drifting and no doubt highsiding at some point etc.
.

never really found this to be the case, i find because my breaking is smooth and progressive im never putting enough force on the breaks and the wheel to warrent a stoppie type reaction, it just appears to help with the weight been shifted to the front.. im not standing on my pegs with all my weight on the front im just leaning over the front more, :p

[Stu]

I may drop down a gear apply the front then then the rear and then apply the front harder.
Seeing as you asked, you should use the brakes to slow you down, then change gear not the other way around.

[John 675]

Seeing as you asked, you should use the brakes to slow you down, then change gear not the other way around.

with a blip of the throttle this is how i do it EVERY single time i drop a gear, i assume its the right way.. certainly appears to be the smoothest lol,:smt115

[Durbs]

Am I the only one that enjoys playing with grip in the wet?

Yup


this has the tantalising effect of getting the back end out ..

Yeah, i kinda like that too. Reminds me of being on a BMX.

[Stu]

3. approaching traffic lights @ about 30mph - amber not working - suddenly went red, and managed to do a small stoppie (front brakes are quite powerful enough on the SV :D)
.
Did you not get a clue when the green light switched off that red was coming? :???:

[flymo]

Really dont want to appear like I'm preaching and I'm certainly no Rossi, but I have spent a long time racing and braking is a fairly important part of the technique :rolleyes:

It all depends on the situation you find youself in but the front will slow you down much faster than the rear, and in a much shorter distance.

The point about using front/back 60/40 etc is true and I've used it but it is much more difficult to perfect than you'ld expect. In a race we do use this technique but it tends to be for very hard braking at the end of a straight and before the bike is leaned over. All other times its 100% front, wet or dry.

The important thing is to not unsettle the bike as it also reduces grip. If you end up in the situation when some tosser pulls out on you then I'm afraid its probably down to you not expecting the move and being too close/fast etc. It doesnt need to be your fault, but I reckon you can plan for most things and ride defensively to counter it.

I've also seen many many errors in a race where the guy goes too fast into the corner and hits the brakes causing him to crash. In almost all cases the bike will go around the corner if you leave the brakes alone and go with it.

Overall though it really is amazing just how hard you can brake, wet or dry. I regularly see and do myself, brake to the extent that the back lifts very slightly. Thats racing though, but what it does show is that its possible to brake extremely hard provided that you are smooth but firm.

I remember watching a mate of mine crash into Anglesey hairpin, he told me later that his brakes had failed. I had a perfect side on view of the crash and I saw his front wheel stopped totally for about 50 yards! Nothing wrong with the brakes there then :-)

[Pedro68]

Did you not get a clue when the green light switched off that red was coming? :???:
Green lights out means go (well in F1 it does :-P)
Ok, poor obs on that occasion ... lesson learnt ;-)

[RingDing]

From the "Hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy": "Don't Panic"


I find wearing a pair of Joo Janta 200 Super-Chromatic Peril Sensitive Sunglasses helps with this.