Couldn't have put it better myself

[DarrenSV650S]

Prime Minister John Howard - Australia


Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia , as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.


Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques. Quote:



'IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians.'


"This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom'


'We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society . Learn the language!'


'Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.'


'We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.'


'This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom,
'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.'


'If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.'

Maybe if we circulate this amongst ourselves, American and British citizens will find the backbone to start speaking and voicing the same truths.

[timwilky]

considering John Howard was kicked out of office a couple of months ago. It shows what democratic people in a country that was built on immigration think of his xenophobic rants.

[gettin2dizzy]

Hardly xenophobic, and if it wasn't for the Christian rubbish in the middle I'd be inclined to side with his.

Their new PM looks to be a disaster.

[neio79]

well if he is out of a job can he come over here and take over please?? we need someone wit ha bit of national pride and comon sense in office compared to these jellyfish we currently have.

i agree with all he said. change Australia for the UK and you have my POV on this subject.

[600+]

Haven't you opened a can of worms now :)

I find his speech worrying to say the list, so let me put this in a real life example for you.

I am Greek, born and raised there, my parents for at least 4 generations have been Greek, yet we are not Christians. So why do I have to put up with the cross being displayed in schools? Or why do I have to be taught about Christian faith and not about all faiths in an unbiased way? Why does the Greek Church need to be involved in the running of the country?

I don't disagree that people should be allowed to believe in what they want and live where they want AS LONG AS they don't cause anyone any problems.

If lets say from the speech above you reword it and generalise it then I could agree with it. But be careful Darren cause if you decide to move to another country that could be Greece or Cyprus like a lot of Brits do, make sure you remember that speech cause you could then become the hunted instead of the hunter! ;)

[the_lone_wolf]

John Howard did NOT say this

it's a *******ised version of what he did say mixed in with some right wing christian nut-case's view published in an editorial in america:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/australia.asp


Howard's comments where nowhere near as confrontational and ill thought out, which are typical themes of examples of people motivated by religious belief twisting reality to suit their own bigoted myopic view of what is "right" in their narrow, petty little minds. disgusting

australia was not founded on christian values (and neither was the USA (http://nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm) for that matter) - aus was colonised by europeans and taken from the indigenous natives

[gettin2dizzy]

John Howard did NOT say this

it's a *******ised version of what he did say mixed in with some right wing christian nut-case's view published in an editorial in america:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/australia.asp


Howard's comments where nowhere near as confrontational and ill thought out, which are typical themes of examples of people motivated by religious belief twisting reality to suit their own bigoted myopic view of what is "right" in their narrow, petty little minds. disgusting

australia was not founded on christian values (and neither was the USA (http://nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm) for that matter) - aus was colonised by europeans and taken from the indigenous natives
In John Lennons 'Imagine' song, some american releases changed the lines
'and no religion too' to:
'and one religion too'
:lol:

[the_lone_wolf]

In John Lennons 'Imagine' song, some american releases changed the lines
'and no religion too' to:
'and one religion too'
:lol:
yep, you're completely free to express whatever faith you want, as long as it's the same as ours:rolleyes:

[SoulKiss]

In 2000 years time, due to cross breeding, all humans will be coffee coloured with slighly slanted eyes.

But although we will all look similar, we will still be killing each other over our Imaginary friends.

Dont you just love the Human Race ?

[pencil shavings]

In 2000 years time, due to cross breeding, all humans will be coffee coloured with slighly slanted eyes.

But although we will all look similar, we will still be killing each other over our Imaginary friends.

Dont you just love the Human Race ?

Ive heard this before, but I really dont think it will be the case. I think due to humanities inhearent fear of things strange and different cross breading wont be much more than it is now. we will still look for mates in people of similar or the same creed as ourselves.

I dont mean for strange and different to be taken in an offensive way, but the way society forces fear upon its citizens and the way that physology of race and creed works, you will more likly reject difference.


I might be wrong, we can have this chat again in 2000 years. :wink:

[G]

Religion is the single biggest problem in this world.

I get sick of hearing about it.:reaper:

[gettin2dizzy]

Ive heard this before, but I really dont think it will be the case. I think due to humanities inhearent fear of things strange and different cross breading wont be much more than it is now. we will still look for mates in people of similar or the same creed as ourselves.

I dont mean for strange and different to be taken in an offensive way, but the way society forces fear upon its citizens and the way that physology of race and creed works, you will more likly reject difference.


I might be wrong, we can have this chat again in 2000 years. :wink:
In 2000 years people will still think their SVs can do 140 ;)

[pencil shavings]

In 2000 years people will still think their SVs can do 140 ;)

mine can \\:D/

[Rog]

This attitude (although I understand it is miss quoted) really annoys me. The whole point of belonging to a free country is your ability to express your views regardless of what you may be asking for. It doesnt matter what your background is or how long you have been in a country, The fact that you want to then change that country is your right as a free citizen. Thats the whole point of a democratic system. If you dont like it you can change it through the democratic process.

This supposed view of Howards is one of a dictat not of a democrat. The argument for any change should be addressed on its merits and the view on that argument by the majority. It's validity should certainly not be questioned based on the proposer's background, colour of skin, time they have been here or the language they speak.

Wanting Sharia Law should be discussed and debated on what it would mean and its effect's on the society. Not simple dismissed just because the proposer is a black arab speaker whos been here for 2 years.

[pencil shavings]

This attitude (although I understand it is miss quoted) really annoys me. The whole point of belonging to a free country is your ability to express your views regardless of what you may be asking for. It doesnt matter what your background is or how long you have been in a country, The fact that you want to then change that country is your right as a free citizen. Thats the whole point of a democratic system. If you dont like it you can change it through the democratic process.

yep, being able to express yourself is fine. But there must be a line drawn where tollerence becomes assimilation. Also alot of people who are expressive derogatory views are not actually citizens.

if a small miltary force came into the country and conviced parts of the army to join up to their small rebellion, it would be bad. but what if no one stopped it from happening, more and more soilders joined up untill they were eventually more powerfull than the army and took over the country by a coup.

not very likly, but that is what would happen to democracy without checks. The values of our society will be eroded by the vocal minority, the most vocal groups will get what they want eventually. Becuse 'Britsh' culture is to be reserved, que for the bus, protest at a very last resort but not become disgrunted with the system, Iraq protests are a good example of this.

also look at womens rights for example. years of repression, then the most sucessfull political movement ever has made it an almost mute issue now. this could happen to our culture form a alien influence.

[arc123]

Well, you see, Aborigines don't own the land.They belong to it. It's like their mother. See those rocks? Been standing there for 600 million years. Still be there when you and I are gone. So arguing over who owns them is like two fleas arguing over who owns the dog they live on. Michael J "Crocodile" Dundee.

Couldn't have put it better myself. ;)

[pencil shavings]

Michael J "Crocodile" Dundee.

Couldn't have put it better myself. ;)

brings up the great philosphical argument of crazy vs lazy, property rights and a theory I only recently learnt of basic income.

[arc123]

brings up the great philosphical argument of crazy vs lazy, property rights and a theory I only recently learnt of basic income.

Care to elaborate??! Crazy v Lazy?

[pencil shavings]

Care to elaborate??! Crazy v Lazy?

oh sorry, i was trying not a spend my whole day writing about this, im ment to be writing a presentation, but as i have to write an essay on this in the next few days i might as well.

crazy vs lazy

two men wash up on a desert island that has lots of fruit, fresh water, animals, but they are the only people on it. so they agree to split the island in half fairly. one man is crazy and works 12 hours a day, make a great house for himself, has lots of lovly fruit and lots of resources.
the other guy is lazy, has a shack, works for a few hours a day getting just enough food to survive because he would rather relax than work.
so crazy guy come to lazy guy and says, if you give me your half of the island i will give you enough food so you dont strave and let you keep your shack so you dont go cold at night. so now crazy man is happy because has has the whole island to work off and lazy man is happy because he dosent have to work and still gets his small amount of food.

then another man gets washed up on the island. he dosent get to claim any of the island because crazy man owns it all. and if he want to eat he has to work for crazy man to get his food and shelter. where as lazy man can do nothing and get exactly the same as the 3rd man.

this is an example of how the world has already been devided up and we are born into servitude of those who own the world already. unless of course we happen to be born into one of these families.

this brings in the idea of basic income, everyone of working age should be given a basic income, enough to surive on for doing nothing, like lazy man. there is alot more to it. Alaska kind of does it already with the oil kick back, but that isnt enough to live off. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guaranteed_minimum_income

this is very philisophical and relys on everyone being treated as equal and everyone having the same moral worth.

hope that explains it abit more!

[arc123]

hope that explains it abit more!Yeah thanks for elaborating - I googled it first and couldn't find anything. Interesting theory.

Out of interest - What are you studying??

[pencil shavings]

Yeah thanks for elaborating - I googled it first and couldn't find anything. Interesting theory.

Out of interest - What are you studying??

yep, its very interesting. Im study war, peace and international relations. but this information came from a compulsory module called political thinking which has rapidly become my favorate (not best mind! lol)

[Rog]

The route I was referring to was the democratis process, not tollerance. If a view is held by a section of the people and this is then voted upon and more and more people want it to happen and those people gain more power through members in parliment then laws and ways of governance will be changed.

If the Muslim faith becomes the majority in this country then why shouldnt Sharie Law be introduced if the majority want it. Through Howards statement he is assuming that everyone shares his view and asking you not to question it or suggest alternative or new laws or ways of governance. This is not about tollerance its about due process. Sharie Law should be debated sensible, not as a sop to muslims but out of due process in a democratic society.

[pencil shavings]

The route I was referring to was the democratis process, not tollerance. If a view is held by a section of the people and this is then voted upon and more and more people want it to happen and those people gain more power through members in parliment then laws and ways of governance will be changed.

If the Muslim faith becomes the majority in this country then why shouldnt Sharie Law be introduced if the majority want it. Through Howards statement he is assuming that everyone shares his view and asking you not to question it or suggest alternative or new laws or ways of governance. This is not about tollerance its about due process. Sharie Law should be debated sensible, not as a sop to muslims but out of due process in a democratic society.

I ment the toleration of expression, which as far as I can goes hand in hand with both toleration and expression. The thing that I objected to is when you said regardless of how long they had been in the country, its inapropriate to expect the majority of home citizens to change for a minority of aliens (non citizens)

We, as a British culture, place IMHO too much faith in 'the system' and 'democratic process'. democracy dosent work that well when its analised, its slow, clumbersome, and only reflects the view of the majority when its interests are served.

If the majority wanted to abloish democracy in this country in favour of a comunist regieme, or a dictatorial one they wouldnt be able to without military force IMO.

same as when oppional polls showed majority didnt want war with iraq, the bigest protests ever seen in the UK took place, this still wasnt enough to convice our democraticly elected representative that war was not what we wanted. did we complain? no, we reelected Blair.

what you are saying about the muslim majority, is like the story of the broom. its was my Granddads broom, my Dad replaced the brush and I replaced the handle. So, is it the same broom?

This is what would be happening to our culture, it just wouldnt exisit anymore. Which is the irony of cultural diversity, it actually destroys weaker cultures. and i fear that British culture is far weaker than Muslim culture, or even American culture. The world dosent experiance westerisation anymore, its experiancing Americanisation. Even in England, the home (well i know not the origion of) of the cup of tea, you can only find coffee shops on the high streets. why is this the case when there are a handfull of coffee variants and 100s of varieants of tea. Why dont we have tea shops instead?? answer, americanisation.

I hope that was explained well? Im quite sleepy :thumleft: