Is uprgrading stock stuff really worth it?

[John 675]

Ive just had an hour long convosation with a Gixxer owner about my SV, and the fact that at the moment it sounds like a bag of nails.. squeeking and clicking and just plain crap :( i was telling him about my ambitions for the bike to which he replied.. "just buy another bike"

i dont want another bike.. i dont understand why people underate the SV.. its not really a learner bike.. its just manageable if your new.
as ive stated before there are loads of things that i want to do to the bike..

K6 front end mod... but apparently acording to JHS if i sent the bike to them they will fit the stiffer springs and completely revalve the shocks to get the same performance.???

engine work.. i want my bike to move quicker.. ive thought about playing with the gearing to see what i can achieve,
And have often considered getting the whole engine upgraded powered up to the best it can be..

people might say.. "just buy a faster bike".... but why not get the most of the one i have? im happy to put the money into it as i never intend on selling it..

when i do upgrade in the end.. my SV will be my track bike so it wont lay redundent when a better bike comes along.

there are allsorts of little cosmetic mods im going to do none of which are important enough to mention...

im thinking of getting some cash together and sending it over to JHS for a service overhall any way get it propperly checked out

whats the opinion of the Org?? am i just stupid to put the money into an SV?? is it worth it??

[fizzwheel]

Depends...

Do you like tinkering, modifying or generally fiddling about, are you competant with spanners, can you do the work yourself ? Are you going to keep your SV till your hairs fallen out and your brains turned to mush ?

If so then no I dont think its a waste of time, to take a good platform and then turn it into exactly what you want from a bike makes sense.

If your going to keep the SV for a couple of years and use it as a stepping stone to a Full on sports bike like my GSXR, then no I dont think it makes any sense at all...

In short, do what you like to get what you want. GSXR front end swap isnt expensive, in fact if you are clever you can break even on it, Speak to Northwind. So it needed be expensive. I think as far as upgrades to improve the handling and braking are concerned they make sense, but dont be expecting to get massive power upgrades out of it without spending serious money on it and thats where, buying a bigger bike makes more sense to me.

[John 675]

that makes sense Fizz cheers for that reply because you described exactly as i feel here

"take a good platform and then turn it into exactly what you want from a bike makes sense."

JHS seem to be a good company.. but spanner man is like 30 mins up the motorway, do you reckon he could completely overhall my bike?

[Dangerous Dave]

JHS are honest guys and they will not over charge you for a single thing, if they believe its not worth it or can be done cheaper they will tell you!

I have two Curvy's, one is virtually standard but may not be for long and the other is a GSXR front ended, Ohlins rear, 750cc, mental case! Having ridden the stock 650 for a few days recently I can feel the budgetness that I once forgot about with the SV's. Working on the suspension is the first thing to do, and yes a proper rework of the forks will give you what a GSXR front end does. You have to rework the shock with a GSXR front end to get its benefits and balance the bike out anyway. You get better brakes with a GSXR front end, but they are more than what you need on an SV! The GSXR swap can sometimes leave you with money left over if you shop for parts right, I ended up (after selling the standard front end) spending only ?27 on my conversion!

Racetech'd SV forks are great, but again there is no point in sorting the front without sorting the rear if you are looking for a better handling bike all round.

For engine performance JHS is the place to be, they know more about the SV than any other tuner! There are several approaches to go, full exhaust, PC, high compression pistons, etc... I haven't seen a bored out Pointy yet though.

You are not throwiing money away if you are looking at keeping the bike for a long period of time, you are improving a budget bike!

[Lissa]

whats the opinion of the Org?? am i just stupid to put the money into an SV?? is it worth it??

Waste of money in our opinion;)

[steveg]

Its a dificult question , it also depends on what kind of mileage / use the bike has .
My k5 has almost 30k miles , have had front forks / oil upgraded , fender extender , R&g's , scotoiler & can fitted , cost approx 400 quid , not gonna to spend much more as its not worth it , rear shock is worn will look to get a ebay job .
I recon that the above mods (except can) are needed as minimum if you use bike regulary .
Would like to get another bigger bike however funds are tight at the moment & I,m struggling to keep the sv on the road.

Cheers Steve

[fizzwheel]

JHS will do a good job I would think their reputation seems well founded and well deserved, but you wont learn anything about your bike from them. But if you want engine mods then I'd say that JHS seem to be the place to go.

Whereas if you take it to Spannerman I believe he'll do the service with you so you learn how to do simple stuff, which you can do yourself once you know and save money, also he'll do just as good as job as JHS will I would imagine.

If you just want to give it a good service and you are planning to keep the bike along time and dont care about stamps in the book, then take it to spannerman and learn how to do the servicing yourself, if thats what your thing is.

You've got to decide what you want from the SV, its your bike nobody else's, to quote Obi Wan.

"You must do what you feel is right of course"

I think you can tel what path I've taken and I'm really happy I did it that way.

[John 675]

yeah i see which way you went and thats cool, i just havent learnt how to ride my SV well yet.. i stutter on the track in tight corners to name one of about 20 known issues i have with the bike and i dont want to upgrade from SV untill ive ridden it to its absolute limit.., however i want the upgrades to the engine and the shocks because i dont want the budget bits holding me back.. i want the SV and Myself to be the best we can be together before i get another bike.

[fizzwheel]

Personally I think for what you unlock that chasing horsepower is expensive for not much gain. I'd do that last. No harm in a Filter and a remap though, that seems a bit more cost effective.

Do the front end and rear shock upgrades first. That'll help you get the most out of the engine and chassis, and also you'll get the most from the brakes or end up with GSXR brakes ( depends what you do ) which again will help you make the most of what you have got.

Thats what I'd do anyway. I'm curious now what things are you struggling with on your SV at the moment, what do you want to change and what do you think you're going to get out of it ?

[Dangerous Dave]

Do the front end and rear shock upgrades first. That'll help you get the most out of the engine and chassis
This is true, there is no point power hunting if you can't use it properly!

[21QUEST]

.........

For engine performance JHS is the place to be, they know more about the SV than any other tuner! .......

I know over the years there have been various opinions on JHS but I still believe the above to be true ;)

The best SV I've ever had was a JHS tuned(including suspension) SV.----M4 system, JHS Stage two cams, GSXR1000 front end, Technoflex shock. Bike was a beauty to ride. Suspension was compliant yet firm when needed......just as it sould be eh :)


JHS will do a good job I would think their reputation seems well founded and well deserved, but you wont learn anything about your bike from them. ....


I wouldn't be so sure Fizz ;). I've only been to JHS once(at there old place) but James was happy to talk about stuff and no problems with watching and asking questions....James is an easy going fellow .
I don't know if that's changed now after the big move but that was my experience.

At the period, if they were closer, would have been top of my list on the rare occasion I might decide to use a shop.

I do understand where you are coming from though


Ben

[21QUEST]

This is true, there is no point power hunting if you can't use it properly!
+2

You will get soooooo much more from a sorted suspension.



Ben

[John 675]

I'm curious now what things are you struggling with on your SV at the moment, what do you want to change and what do you think you're going to get out of it ?

to start with its not about speed, its about perfomance.. handeling .. ability.. then speed lol, i know with the right equipment on my bike it could be a competetive machine..

SS600's other than the engine, have well perfoming parts.. my sv will have too

[sv-robo]

Depends...



no I dont think its a waste of time, to take a good platform and then turn it into exactly what you want from a bike makes sense.



.
+1
I love my sv and because of that it has had almost £2000 of performance/mostly cosmetic parts fitted to it.The thing about the sv is it's one of those bikes that you can keep on adding to as there is so much out there for it.
Fair enough it's never going to keep up with a superbike in a straight line(although as far as an sv goes i do believe it's one of the quicker ones out there)but any idiot can ride in a staight line,get on a decent set of twisties and i have the belief in my bike and my ability that i will take any bike(don't mean to sound big-headed there).
At the end of the day i dont want to turn up at bike meetings and see another 10/20 bikes exactly the same as mine i like to try and make mine as unique as possible which is what you can do with an sv.
My advice would be it's your money it's your bike and if you want to go to town on it to make it better....go for it.hth

[Dangerous Dave]

I wouldn't be so sure Fizz ;). I've only been to JHS once(at there old place) but James was happy to talk about stuff and no problems with watching and asking questions....James is an easy going fellow .
I don't know if that's changed now after the big move but that was my experience.
Still the same, and always will be I believe as they are all easy going blokes and understand that bikers have to start from somewhere to learn about there bikes!

[northwind]

K6 front end mod... but apparently acording to JHS if i sent the bike to them they will fit the stiffer springs and completely revalve the shocks to get the same performance.?


Did JHS actually use the word "revalve"? Extremely misleading if they did, since you don't have any valves to revalve :rolleyes: If you can, get a bit more info on what they intend to do, if it's just racetech emulators and springs then it's not as good as the GSXR swaps, still just as heavy as standard and you don't get any external adjustability. It would also be more expensive, if you go to a pro rather than DIYing it (the fork swap is surprisingly DIYable these days, it's been done so often there are no booby traps if you keep it simple) You can also DIY emulators too. It's a good mod, I wouldn't say otherwise, but GSXR swaps done on the cheap (in your case, using 2000-2003 750 front end) work better when done right and can be cheaper so I think it makes more sense.

Power is a money pit, you could spend a grand and still only have 80-85bhp, which obviously is more than the usual 65-70 but not so much that it'll reinvent the bike. Mine runs at about 80 and it's nice to have but really, it doesn't make much practical difference. The midrange and broader power is more useful but still, it's kind of hard to recommend.

Also, a lot of the power work you can have done may impact reliability- some people swear blind that 700cc rebores are completely safe, others swear they're not, but it generally seems to be the people with the most experience of them that say they're not so I go with that personally. It's a fair bit of extra moving mass and a fair chunk of extra power, running in pistons with thinner linings (so lower heat stability). Whether or not that all adds up to anything, I can't say personally and I won't be finding out. I want to get another 30000 miles out of this engine at least ;)

I like my extra power, but I don't need it. But I'd miss the suspension very badly, in fact, I'm back on a stock rear shock for now and I hate it.

[Stig]

Any modification you do on the SV apart from suspension upgrades, is a waste of money. But then, it is on every single bike. It adds nothing to the value of it.

Nearly all bikes are money pits. How much of a pit is entirely up to you. It doesn't have to make sense to do something. If you enjoyed doing it and like the end product and had the money to throw at it, cool.

What ever floats your boat.

[Dangerous Dave]

Also, a lot of the power work you can have done may impact reliability- some people swear blind that 700cc rebores are completely safe, others swear they're not, but it generally seems to be the people with the most experience of them that say they're not so I go with that personally. It's a fair bit of extra moving mass and a fair chunk of extra power, running in pistons with thinner linings (so lower heat stability). Whether or not that all adds up to anything, I can't say personally and I won't be finding out. I want to get another 30000 miles out of this engine at least ;)
8 year old 750, been with me from stock and built by me with correctly sourced products. I have never had a single problem with her, on a bike that has for the last 3 years (600 + miles a week) commuted. Yes the people who know about the failing of the 700cc know what they are talking about but they failed to mention that it was the people that made/fitted it had no idea what they were doing!

If you ever want a bored out SV engine, go for JHS ones only as the other option are the ones that kept going bang!!!

[Dangerous Dave]

Any modification you do on the SV apart from suspension upgrades, is a waste of money. But then, it is on every single bike. It adds nothing to the value of it.

Nearly all bikes are money pits. How much of a pit is entirely up to you. It doesn't have to make sense to do something. If you enjoyed doing it and like the end product and had the money to throw at it, cool.

What ever floats your boat.
Very true, the most worth while upgrade you can do to any SV is to work on the suspension.

[John 675]

Thanks for the input guys :D although the desicion is of course my own.. would you say the practicle thing to do is Upgrade the forks and shocks.. and change the gearing for better acceleration.. i mean c'mon.. my bike still does twice the legal limit as standard with the power it has..
since i posted this morning all ive done is sit and stare at my bike wondering what to do.. then it dawned that im still to remap my ecu for the K&N and my open can,
so on the advice ive had from you guys this is what i now intend to do..

Power commander,
Gixxer forks,
gixer 600/750 rear shock,
Gearing altered for faster acceleration,
can someone clean up this myth for me... if the speed reading is taken from the front wheel.. it shouldnt affect my reading on my speedo.. like it would if it was taken from the engine would it?

would you guys advise what ive decided?

[fizzwheel]

Seems sensible to me except I'd go for a rear shock built for your weight and made for the SV. I know I know lots of people use a shock off another bike, but personally I'd spend the extra and get something meant to go on the SV.

Yes the 650 reads its speed off the front wheel.

[Dangerous Dave]

Power commander,
Gixxer forks,
gixer 600/750 rear shock,
Gearing altered for fasre acceleration,
Good idea, use a shock for an SV though in my opinion. As for the speedo I have no idea as with Curvys you simply hook it up to the rear wheel which you can't do with Pointys.

Try this thread (http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=103758) for the Speedo...

[John 675]

know lots of people use a shock off another bike, but personally I'd spend the extra and get something meant to go on the SV. .

like a WP or hagon or something?

Yes the 650 reads its speed off the front wheel.

so does it give a correct reading with altered gearing?

[Dangerous Dave]

so does it give a correct reading with altered gearing?
Yes as it is taken from the wheel, which would be the speed you are travelling (well according to Suzuki's exaggerated speedo)

[John 675]

ive just spoken to a mate of mine that thinks he can peice an entire GSXR front end together for about £600, what is the return like on selling my OEM front end?

[northwind]

If you ever want a bored out SV engine, go for JHS ones only as the other option are the ones that kept going bang!!!

The suggestion being that no JHS engine has ever gone bang, which isn't right... Unless you into the bottom end- which JHS don't on the standard big-bore they do- there's nothing different that you can do at the top that will make the strength issues go away. There's lots you can do to reduce the overall strain on the engine- lighten pistons, cranks or flywheels for instance- but if you stay in the top of the engine that's all untouchable. Think it's fair to say that Holeshot know how to bore out a barrel but they don't recommend a top-end only bigbore for the SV, to give you an example.

See, this is where it gets tricky- you can have one or a dozen bikes be totally reliable, but it doesn't mean that they all will be. Lots of people have never had SV wet front plug when riding in the rain, to give you another example, but it still happens. Nothing's totally 100% reliable, and very little is 100% unreliable, the only question is how far up or down the sliding scale you go.

[northwind]

ive just spoken to a mate of mine that thinks he can peice an entire GSXR front end together for about £600, what is the return like on selling my OEM front end?

That's quite expensive... It depends what you want, if you go with the latest forks then it'll be pricey but if you were to go with, say, 00-03 750 forks with the conventional calipers it's just as easy a fit and it should probably cost under £400 for the parts. It won't be quite as good as the latest forks, but is it 2/3 as good? I reckon so.

SV parts, depends on condition. The wheels and discs are quite expensive, forks can get a good price but you need to find someone who needs them, they're uncommon but not in constant demand.

[John 675]

to be honest northy, i am wanting the USD forks if im going to do it.. simply because they look ace on a pointy lol, but also because as you say they are better.. the onlything that concerns me is the speedo.. so question..
Q: is it posssible to maintain the stock speedo with little hasstle when this front end job is done?

[Dangerous Dave]

The suggestion being that no JHS engine has ever gone bang, which isn't right... Unless you into the bottom end- which JHS don't on the standard big-bore they do- there's nothing different that you can do at the top that will make the strength issues go away. There's lots you can do to reduce the overall strain on the engine- lighten pistons, cranks or flywheels for instance- but if you stay in the top of the engine that's all untouchable. Think it's fair to say that Holeshot know how to bore out a barrel but they don't recommend a top-end only bigbore for the SV, to give you an example.

See, this is where it gets tricky- you can have one or a dozen bikes be totally reliable, but it doesn't mean that they all will be. Lots of people have never had SV wet front plug when riding in the rain, to give you another example, but it still happens. Nothing's totally 100% reliable, and very little is 100% unreliable, the only question is how far up or down the sliding scale you go.
I meant that if you want a bored engine then go to JHS they have a better history of reliabilty and will inspected the engine throughly before doing the work on it. I didn't mean that JHS's are 100% reliable, just they know what they are doing and will double check everything first.

The other company do a ride in service, swap yours with a pre-bore and let you ride out. No check, not test ride, nothing! Thats not the way JHS work!

Oh... and the standard bore kit isn't worth doing without the bottom end work, as you know Northy.

Apologies for any confusion.

[northwind]

That parts list I gave you is USD, with the conventional calipers. If you want radial then K4-K5 will be cheaper than K6 but more expensive than 00-03. I used to have the 00-03 ones, now I have K4-K5, the old ones were knackered frankly so I can't do a fair compare but it didn't make a huge amount of difference on the street.

Speedo is easy...

http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=106410&highlight=veypor+loom

There's other ways to do it but this is what I've done, mainly because the sensor is so tiny. Your wiring diagram may be different but you could figure it out with 2 minutes and a multimeter.

[Dangerous Dave]

i am wanting the USD forks if im going to do it
The ones northwind are one about are upside down (non radial caliper model)

[northwind]

Oh... and the standard bore kit isn't worth doing without the bottom end work, as you know Northy.


And yet JHS (and most other places) do it like that ;) (yes, they'll do a more complete job too but from the people I've seen who've done it most have opted for the simple option) Trouble is, once you go into the bottom end the price goes off the scale and it stops making any sense.

[Dangerous Dave]

Trouble is, once you go into the bottom end the price goes off the scale and it stops making any sense.
Tell me about it, thank god she is as reliable as a Honda!!!

[northwind]

Oh yeah, pictures tell a thousand words re the fork parts ;)

00-03 (with an older wheel, you'd use the same generation's wheel, curvies prefer the SRAD one)

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i264/Northwindlowlander/100_1539.jpg

K4-K5 (using a totally different wheel, you don't want to spend too much time looking at that!)

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i264/Northwindlowlander/dymag/Front%20end/goodpc.jpg

My K6 forks are in the garage yet, but that's not a swap I'm doing for performance ;)

[Dangerous Dave]

Thanks for the Speedo link Northy, thought you had the rear wheel set up like I have or have you changed the back end?

[fizzwheel]

like a WP or hagon or something?

Possibly, Northwind has an Ohlins on his, he'd be a better person to ask than me.

so does it give a correct reading with altered gearing?

Yep. Its just a sensor on the front wheel spindle, gearing wont alter the speed the front wheel rotates at.

[northwind]

Tell me about it, thank god she is as reliable as a Honda!!!

I'm dead curious, what else did you have done when yours was built? Lightening work or did they do shot peaning or similiar? Or for your 750, did you go with the Carillo stroker crank? I've ruled all that side of things out on cost grounds (I could build my own engine to similiar HP, and then blow it up, and build my spare to the same level for less than an exhaustive bottom end rebuild) but that doesn't stop me nosing :smt080

[Dangerous Dave]

Billet crank and conrods to name a some....

Bought the engine from them with a part ex with my standard engine, they were in need of a standard engine very quickly!

[northwind]

Possibly, Northwind has an Ohlins on his, he'd be a better person to ask than me.


No I don't, it popped :( Still not got it rebuilt yet, and my WP is off at Full Travel being reconditioned to make it sellable. There's a reason it was cheap :D

I'm on the fence with the rear shocks... Obviously Ohlins, Penske etc are better than a bodge-it with a GSXR shock but then, are they ten times better? That's the cost difference... I'm kind of inclined to say try the GSXR swap first, since if it doesn't work out you only lose time. If it does, then you save ?400. The real shocks are better but I think I could live with a 636 shock or similiar in mine.

Thanks for the Speedo link Northy, thought you had the rear wheel set up like I have or have you changed the back end?

I did, but I'm changing wheels so I redid it to remove the stock drive entirely. (and not coincidentally, because I finally broke the speedo drive rotor's last tooth off, after about 60 wheel swaps :smt048)

[northwind]

Billet crank and conrods to name a some....


Coooooool. I looked at that once and then I noticed that PARTS ALONE COST MORE THAN AN ENTIRE SV! And that put me off slightly :D But if you should ever want to sell said wondermotor, you let me know ;)

[Dangerous Dave]

Obviously Ohlins, Penske etc are better than a bodge-it with a GSXR shock but then, are they ten times better?
Agreed, I have only ridden a bodge it shock on a Pointy (for 3 days) and I didn't like it that much but it was a different bike mind!

[John 675]

ok so the forks are still upside down thats not bad then, i have yet another question lol, its about front wheel compatability..
Q: will a gsxr 04 onward fit all of their 04 + USD forks?

[Dangerous Dave]

Coooooool. I looked at that once and then I noticed that PARTS ALONE COST MORE THAN AN ENTIRE SV!
I know, thats why I jumped at the chance for the part ex!!!!
But if you should ever want to sell said wondermotor, you let me know
Maybe if she blows....

Grown quiet attached to the old girl, she's going for a dyno run in April sometime/maybe and as she is nolonger the commuter day to day reliabilty can come down a tad so she may get one last tweak!

[northwind]

ok so the forks are still upside down thats not bad then, i have yet another question lol, its about front wheel compatability..
Q: will a gsxr 04 onward fit all of their 04 + USD forks?

Sorry, I haven't a clue... THe wheels got a wee bit more complicated lately I think.

Ah, yeah, meant to ask- how much do you weigh? You can pick and choose a wee bit from recent forks because they come with a variety of stock valving and spring weight. The current 750 forks come with 1kg/mm springs for instance, which is very very stiff for an SV, the 00 ones come with .73kg/mm I think which is more suitable for skinny wee freaks like me.

[John 675]

i'm about 9.5 stone, i like to keep a slender image.. keeps me more aero dynamic lol,

[Dangerous Dave]

You'll want a wheel from the same forks you get (K1-K3 forks go with a k1-K3 wheel for example)

[northwind]

Well... In that case, I reckon those K6 forks will be oversprung for you, the 00-03 ones will be pretty much OK, and the K4-K5 ones will be just a touch stiff but also OK. That's a bit of a layman's opinion, I'm no suspension expert, but you're about a weight with me and that's what I've found. I think the K6 600 forks are lighter sprung. This is quite a big deal because if they're not right for you then no matter how good the parts are it'll still not ride right- and it's not cheap to get this stuff sorted, if you go to a pro. Which to be fair, I think is the best idea, I certainly will be.

[Stig]

Yep. Its just a sensor on the front wheel spindle, gearing wont alter the speed the front wheel rotates at.

Now that's just not true is it. Gear it down enough and you'll struggle to keep the front wheel on the ground. Not sure if you know this, but whilst the front wheel has lost contact with the ground, it slows down. :wink:

[John 675]

lol, good point lol,

[northwind]

Yeah, so, anyway, this thread went insane, largely my fault I think :rolleyes: I think there's kind of 3 approaches to this.

One is the Basic- springs, oil, slipon, leave hte rear alone or GSXR/Ninja shock. Hard to fault this approach, it's mainly done by people who want the SV for what it is out of the box, or who plan to sell, but want to improve slightly on its weaknesses. Now, you don't need springs and oil because you're so light- well, maybe slightly thicker oil. This is more about adjusting what you have rather than adding things.

2nd is the Correction, which is similiar but chucks in emulators, almost always uses the GSXR or 636 rear shock, and maybe a tickle on the power but not much. This one's also hard to fault, it basically unlocks the SV's potential and removes the obvious limitations without trying to make it more than it is. Quite sensible IMO, and also reversible, springs and emulators etc are quite resellable. You can spend £4000 on a new SV with suspension that essentially doesn't work well, or you can spend a further £300 and get one that works massively better- it's all about returns on your money.

2nd can also stretch to GSXR front ends done on the cheap, as they're in much the same budget. It's a bigger step but with bigger rewards. Here you have Yorkie Chris, for instance, with the RWU GSXR swap done for not very much cost at all.

Some people consider step 2 a step too far. But look at it this way- you can spend £50 on a seat hump, £150 on an exhaust, £300 on lowers... Or you can do something that actually makes it work better.

3rd is the Lunatic. This is me and Dave, among others. Unless you really really like either a) SVs, b), modding things or c) having no money, steer well clear. This is all about making the SV more than it is. Give it 85bhp or make it weigh 170 kilos wet or give it race-quality suspension for a road bike. Lunatic. But quite good fun \\:D/

But Lylej, you I think are not a contender for the Lunatic. ;) It's a disease. One seemingly transmitted over the internet :D