Olympic Torch

[Miss Alpinestarhero]

Me and matt stumbled across it's arrival in oxford street today (we originally went to find a place that I need to go to on Tuesday for work); didnt click as to why there were so many policebikes, cyclists and vans at first! Thought there was an accident but then matt mentioned that the olympic torch was arriving.

It wasn't hugely exciting, but cool to see. Esp the skill of the policebikes zooming up and down the road! Oh, and the sugababes were on the olympic torch bus too

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u54/alpinestarhero/HPIM1060.jpg

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u54/alpinestarhero/HPIM1069.jpg

Maria

[CoolGirl]

Amazing what you bump into on Oxford Street - Isaac and I found Vixis trying to restrain SoulKiss at the chocolate cake counter in John Lewis' cafe yesterday.

We were contemplating joining in the protests today, but it was snowing and staying in bed seemed like a much better prosepct. mind you, judging from the media coverage, the Tibet liberators seemed to manage very well without us!

[Ch00]

I think its quite shameful that these protesters were allowed to more or less ruin the whole event. From the TV clips I saw you couldn’t see the flame for the amount of guards and Police officers around them.

What’s meant to be an international joining of the world’s greatest athletes to champion sport turned out as a massive game of rugby where people seemed intend on getting to the torch.

I will be totally honest and put my hand up to not knowing the full facts on the China/Tibet events but I think it should have been a nice day for sport that has been ruined bearing in mind that we are hosting the next games.

Ch00

[DanDare]

i heard some reporter say that the protesters want Britain to boycott the Olympics due to China's stance on Tibet, because and I quote "the Olympics are political"..............



...........What effin planet are you on. I thought the Olympics was about bringing all nations together to compete at sport irregardless of World Politics!

[Ed]

i heard some reporter say that the protesters want Britain to boycott the Olympics due to China's stance on Tibet, because and I quote "the Olympics are political"..............



...........What effin planet are you on. I thought the Olympics was about bringing all nations together to compete at sport irregardless of World Politics!

But the protesters say that China is intending to use the Olympics to show how wonderful they are. I have no idea whether they are or aren't.

China executes more people than the rest of the world put together. It bangs up dissidents. If we were in China, this forum with all its criticism of the Government would not be tolerated, it would be closed down, and John and the mod team would be similarly banged up for allowing it. There is no free press. There is no freedom of religion. You cannot say what you like. There are no free elections. Their record of repression in Tibet is disgraceful. And their record on their own people is similarly hideous. Tiananmen Square, anyone?

I think that people have a right to comment on these things. If it means pointing out that beside the Olympic spectacle there is a less pleasant side to life in the Peoples' Republic of China, then so be it.

[northwind]

It's absurd to say it's not political- it's already been massively politicised in china, it's all very well to say "Oh, we're supporting the games not the regime" but that's not how it's being shown in China. We're giving them a huge propoganda tool. They should never have been given the games in the first place...

[ethariel]

Indeed with China's human rights issues passing them the slot to host the olympics was an awesome error on the part of the IOA.

Almost as bad as giving the next slot to London (but don't get me started on that).

[yorkie_chris]

I think its quite shameful that these protesters were allowed to more or less ruin the whole event.

But the protesters say that China is intending to use the Olympics to show how wonderful they are. I have no idea whether they are or aren't.



Well IMO the government have totally misread the chinese, they've tried to appease the chinese by not boycotting the olympics a la US boycott of moscow olympics. Then they've allowed these protests, which according to someone on BBC news shows us to be a "tolerant democracy" The chinese won't see this as tolerance, they'll see it as weakness. Giving us no points with them at all, Browns carefully controlled PR of not touching the torch will go down even worse.

The government have also shown themselves to not care about various human rights issues, (prime concern for invasion of iraq of course...), so they've managed to achieve the ultimate goal of f###ing the lot up, at the same time!


Oh yes and the chinese press is pretty much totally a propaganda machine, it is quite amazingly obvious, but the general populace over there have no other information.

They are barbarians.

[MiniMatt]

I think you've just spotted Bear's secret love nest, a first floor flat above shops in Oxford Street - boy has he been busy, he's got a whole clan there :D

[MiniMatt]

Oh, and on the demonstrations, to be honest I'd be pretty ashamed of my country if there weren't any demonstrations. I'm glad that we live in a country where we can demonstrate like this, and I'm proud that we live in a country where we do.

[Alpinestarhero]

Oh, and on the demonstrations, to be honest I'd be pretty ashamed of my country if there weren't any demonstrations. I'm glad that we live in a country where we can demonstrate like this, and I'm proud that we live in a country where we do.

Damn right

As long as its not within 1000 meters of downing street (is that right? I think i read something like that) because the PM (at least the old PM) dosn't / didn't want to hear his country was going balls up under his power!

(political arguments are not my forte, I'm just saying what I see....like CatchPhrase)

Matt

[timwilky]

I think its quite shameful that these protesters were allowed to more or less ruin the whole event. From the TV clips I saw you couldn?t see the flame for the amount of guards and Police officers around them.

What?s meant to be an international joining of the world?s greatest athletes to champion sport turned out as a massive game of rugby where people seemed intend on getting to the torch.

I will be totally honest and put my hand up to not knowing the full facts on the China/Tibet events but I think it should have been a nice day for sport that has been ruined bearing in mind that we are hosting the next games.

Ch00


I think it quite shameful that people forget (Especially those in government and the police) that in this country we have the right to protest, to have our voices heard. Unlike in China and especially Tibet where there is believed to be 1 Chinese police man for ever 20 members of the Tibetian population.

The Olympics are political. The Americans made them so with the boycott of Moscow over Afghanistan. China is using them for political purposes. Until all countries aligned to the Olympic movement agree to keep politics out of sport. They should expect that protest will be made when the morally bankrupts (including our own governments dirty fingers in the Olympic pie) advertising campaigns are hijacked as an focal point for legitimate protest.

[Quiff Wichard]

Point is here you can say what you want- so they did.
China you cant . - that and the human rights issue in my opinion made it a legitimate protest and wel done the many that turned out

made it fun-

just a shame no streaker

[Mr Toad]

i heard some reporter say that the protesters want Britain to boycott the Olympics due to China's stance on Tibet, because and I quote "the Olympics are political"..............

...........What effin planet are you on. I thought the Olympics was about bringing all nations together to compete at sport irregardless of World Politics!


Of course the modern Olympics are all about politics, they always have been. It's not just Los Angles and Moscow - go back to 1936 and the games in Berlin if you want a text book example of how to manipulate events . . .


For two weeks in August 1936, Adolf Hitler's Nazi dictatorship camouflaged its racist, militaristic character while hosting the Summer Olympics. Softpedaling its antisemitic agenda and plans for territorial expansion, the regime exploited the Games to bedazzle many foreign spectators and journalists with an image of a peaceful, tolerant Germany. Having rejected a proposed boycott of the 1936 Olympics, the United States and other western democracies missed the opportunity to take a stand that--some observers at the time claimed--might have given Hitler pause and bolstered international resistance to Nazi tyranny. With the conclusion of the Games, Germany's expansionist policies and the persecution of Jews and other "enemies of the state" accelerated, culminating in World War II and the Holocaust.

[G]

I enjoyed watching the live footage whilst at the gym, was all very amusing.

At one point a photographer got rugby tackled real hard, he stood up holding two parts of his camera and looked up to the helicopter in disbelief lol.

Some people got a right pasting by the police though, I'm sure one guy got pushed into the railing so hard he must have broken something.

[sharriso74]

Well I shall boycott watching the games and enjoy the empty roads whilst they're on.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

I think the whole thing was a farce. The protesters should have protested outside the Chinese embassy rather than ruining the event.

I'd say the ends don't justify the means, but the 'ends' amounted to diddly squat. The protesters achieved nothing, except making the UK look stupid.

[timwilky]

They achieved a lot. It got a comment from the Chinese. They saw it and didn't like it. It upsets their well ordered propaganda machine.

A protest outside their embassy wouldn't make world news. This did.

And there are promises of more to come in Paris.

[yorkie_chris]

It upsets their well ordered propaganda machine.

I very much doubt scenes from today will make it back to the chinese public.

Except if they get wound up with us and use it to show how "weak" we are.

[slark01]

oops it's been put out!
Don't panic they have a back up :-)

[G]

They achieved a lot. It got a comment from the Chinese. They saw it and didn't like it. It upsets their well ordered propaganda machine.

A protest outside their embassy wouldn't make world news. This did.

And there are promises of more to come in Paris.

Albeit the propoganda machine was working on overdrive. There was a 2 minute mention of the Torches progress on the Chinese state news saying it was making good progress none of the protests were even mentioned in the chinese news.

The bbc did a report on it, nobody in china had the faintest idead that anything bad was happening, the goverment made sure of that.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

They achieved a lot. It got a comment from the Chinese. They saw it and didn't like it. It upsets their well ordered propaganda machine.

A protest outside their embassy wouldn't make world news. This did.

And there are promises of more to come in Paris.

But no-one in China other than the government knows it's going on. Other than anoying a very powerful government I can't see it's achieved anything. If they won't bow to pressure from international governments, they sure as hell aren't going to listen to a bunch of protesters.

[yorkie_chris]

If they won't bow to pressure from international governments,


Government won't apply pressure because of trade, any sort of embargo would stuff both countries.

[Rog]

I personnaly beleive that the protest was generally a good thing. We as human beings should stand up and be counted when we see that fellow human beings are being controlled and for all intense and purpose, culled for their political views. Shame on us if we do nothing and simple except this. The olympic games are a political event and always have been regardless of what the news might say. China will not give a crap if a few countries decide to boycott the games. The only way we could really make an impact would be by boycotting chinese goods and by refusing to watch the games.

[Mr Toad]

Other than anoying a very powerful government I can't see it's achieved anything

Unlike you to worry about annoying governments :grin:

Actually they have achieved an incredible amount. The Chinese government are obsessed with 'face' and now they've lost it big time, and the whole of the world (with the exception of their own people) have seen it.

My congratulations to the frogs, as it appears they have managed to put it out :lol:

[G]

My congratulations to the frogs, as it appears they have managed to put it out :lol:


Twice :D Always have to go one better than engerrrland lol

[timwilky]

But no-one in China other than the government knows it's going on. Other than anoying a very powerful government I can't see it's achieved anything. If they won't bow to pressure from international governments, they sure as hell aren't going to listen to a bunch of protesters.


Of course joe bloggs in the street in Beijing, knows nothing about these protest. However, they send a message to those in power in China that whilst we lucky enough not to be under their control can do little about their abuse. We do know of it. We do not like it, and have the right to shout about it.

Will it change anything in China? Of course not. Will it change anything at all. Well maybe force the IOC and their fat cat corporate sponsor to think in future, do they want an olympic event marred by politics by thinking rogue governments may change if they sign upto the olympic ideal. Or should hosting the olympics be a reward to those countries that provide freedom of choice, freedom of speech, freedom of expression etc. to their people.

Personally I see hosting the olympics as a punishment on the tax payers of a country and perhaps the best thing to do would be scrap the damm things in their entirety.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Actually they have achieved an incredible amount. The Chinese government are obsessed with 'face' and now they've lost it big time, and the whole of the world (with the exception of their own people) have seen it.

They've achieved nothing unless it results in change. Can't see that happening.

[CoolGirl]

The protesters should have protested outside the Chinese embassy rather than ruining the event.

Er, they have been. Remember when the Tibetan monks were being massacred a few months ago?

They've achieved nothing unless it results in change. Can't see that happening.

And if no-one does anything nothing will change - that's why I'm a big fan of democracy. The German Chancellor's already stuck two fingers up to the games. We know the Chinese people are being led to belive nothing's up and that makes a lot of people feel uneasy. This is only the beginning....

[Mr Toad]

They've achieved nothing unless it results in change. Can't see that happening.


A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step :wink:

[Lozzo]

A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step :wink:

Or more accurately translated "The journey of a thousand miles begins beneath one's feet."

;)

Btw, that's a Lao-tzu quote, not Confucious as many people think.

[northwind]

Of course joe bloggs in the street in Beijing, knows nothing about these protest. However, they send a message to those in power in China that whilst we lucky enough not to be under their control can do little about their abuse. We do know of it. We do not like it, and have the right to shout about it.


And not just to China, but also to the IOC and of course the British government and our athletes. That's what I think might end up being quite interesting, I wonder how many athletes at the Olymics will have the name Jesse Owens at the back of their head? Or maybe Tommie Smith and John Carlos? Now that would get seen by a few more people...

[timwilky]

I thought about both Jessie Owens snubbing Hitler by ridiculing his nasty racist aryan superiority by his performance in the 36 games and those black power salutes. I just hope those who go. Have the guts to to make a protest to the chinese on their turf.

[northwind]

You know something else about that... The 3rd athlete on the podium, the australian one (just wiki'd it and it was Peter Norman) was totally ostracised for supporting them- Australia actually chose to send nobody at all for his event for the next olympics rather than selecting him, because of his anti white australia comments and because of taking the podium in 68. Tragically he lost a leg to infection after a training injury, and ended up suffering from alcoholism and depression. Arguably he gave up more and suffered more for that shot than the other 2. And now largely forgotten- though both Carlos and Smith were pallbearers at his funeral.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c8/Carlos-Smith.jpg/180px-Carlos-Smith.jpg

[tomjones2]

Personally I cant see how the protests are going to improve tibet's plight. China is so big that no-one is going to stand up to them over an issue like Tibet, whilst everyone knows its happening and may not like it, nothing is going to change whilst so much money is at stake.

I think parallels can be drawn between the US/UK invasion of Iraq without UN backing, no about of shouting fixed it and it seems to have been almost swept under the carpet now.

It does seem a shame that the olympics cannot be about sport though, I know its naive to think that sport and politics are unrelated (apart from F1 of course) it does seem the spirit of the games is rather lost within the politics/profiteering and commercialism of the event.

[Defender]

Amazing what goes on in the world heh!

How many people had heard of Tibet before the protests?

The latest Rambo file - love it or loathe it - helped raised issues on what goes on in Burma so much so that Amnesty International backed the film http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/article3434468.ece

Take a look on this site:
http://www.amnesty.org.uk/

[Pedrosa]

EVERY non Chinese athlete standing on any podium this summer should all have a vest on that reads.."FREE TIBET". This is no joke,the Chinese treat even their own people despicably, for them human rights means nothing.

The podium protest should be the least that happens,if I were asked I would suggest any country with a true conscience should boycott. Yes I do appreciate the sacrifices made by individual athletes to even qualify,but all of the rest is simply about money and import and export deals.

China survives purely on the back of the low cost goods that their massive network of new factories can produce.Paying their people barely liveable incomes to do so,subsidising almost every aspect of their economy to "appear" competitive even as far as underpinning their currency on the world markets.

Flaming Squirrel trust me,if an economical embargo were imposed,even for just 3 months the Chinese would have no option but to take on board some of the international comments. Without being able to export they have an unsustainable economy,they would be dead in the water.(We could buy from India or pump money in to African countries and give their boys and girls a real chance for once)

Only thing is,they might just then decide to break out and over run the world using their devilish network of take away food outlets as their overseas striking bases....many a true word spoken in jest and all that.

Fruitless and meaningless as it might appear to some,I admire and respect anyone standing up and making a noise about such issues...much more than listening to a million who simply tut and poo poo their well intended actions, the same million who would never speak up no matter how much something ,might affect them personally or morally,(apart that is from on internet forums perhaps?) The same million who would never pro act on anything but feel comforted in their smarmy criticism of others and lavish in their own self righteousness.

[tomjones2]

Amazing what goes on in the world heh!

How many people had heard of Tibet before the protests?



I would hope most people have, the Dalia lama for a start is a pretty well know name.

Perosa, I dont belive we could never place an embargo on the Chinese they produce so much for us there is no-one placed to take over the load. India already produce a huge amount of goods and Africa has always seems a difficult place to work what with all the civil wars, weather and dictators that regually wreck the place.

Zimbabwae for instance is another matter, that is something we could have done something about but chose not to probably because there was no money in it.

[philipMac]

lads...
the (sad) fact of the matter is this:
China owns vast amounts of US bonds, propping the USD.
China needs the USD to exist to consume its products.
The US needs China to prop its currency.
The western world (currently) needs the US economy to run.

Therefor, despite all the bleeding hearts and gnashing of teeth, no one is going to do the slightest thing about anything.
China will beat / persecute / imprison / subjugate whomever they feel like.
The less morally bankrupt people of the world will make some pained grumbly noises.
The people will be cowed, as per usual, some people will say human rights are a good idea but the Olympics are sacrosanct and sport is a symbol of hope, and the games will go ahead.


This is the bed we are lying in boys and girls. \\:D/

[gettin2dizzy]

...
Flaming Squirrel trust me,if an economical embargo were imposed,even for just 3 months the Chinese would have no option but to take on board some of the international comments. Without being able to export they have an unsustainable economy,they would be dead in the water.(We could buy from India or pump money in to African countries and give their boys and girls a real chance for once)....
The trade agreements drawn up make me feel physically sick. All of these 'efforts' made by the public to help Africa are only followed by trade agreements making it impossible for them for Africa sustain themselves.

We need to open up trade to Africa and stop giving unfair support to those in the Western world. Not allowing them access to EU or American markets and subsidising EU farmers doesn't give Africa to stand on their on feet.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

The trade agreements drawn up make me feel physically sick. All of these 'efforts' made by the public to help Africa are only followed by trade agreements making it impossible for them for Africa sustain themselves.

We need to open up trade to Africa and stop giving unfair support to those in the Western world. Not allowing them access to EU or American markets and subsidising EU farmers doesn't give Africa to stand on their on feet.

I doubt Africa will ever sort it's self out.

Look at Nigeria - a country that should be filthy rich from its oil. Profoundly corrupt authorities swipe most of the wealth, with the rest of the populace prefering to fight eachother over the remaining scraps rather than banding together to challenge the authorities. It seems to be a pattern that repeats its self all over the continent.

Trade agreements are the least of their worries imo, 'cos even when they have money it always get nicked by the resident dictator.

[gettin2dizzy]

I doubt Africa will ever sort it's self out.

Look at Nigeria - a country that should be filthy rich from its oil. Profoundly corrupt authorities swipe most of the wealth, with the rest of the populace prefering to fight eachother over the remaining scraps rather than banding together to challenge the authorities. It seems to be a pattern that repeats its self all over the continent.

Trade agreements are the least of their worries imo, 'cos even when they have money it always get nicked by the resident dictator.
The wealth distribution throughtout the whole of Africa is truely mind boggling.
I'd just hope by freeing up trade the people on the 'bottom rung' will be able to make a living, albeit a pretty pitiful one. If trade was allowed there'd be money beginning to flow.

This Mugabe sh!t is looking terrifying.

[yorkie_chris]

Rhodesia worked fine as a nation, should make it a colony again.