View Full Version : I feel so sorry for Shannon Matthews
What sort of life must she have had. 7 kids, 5 fathers. Stepdad likes looking at pics of kiddies. Uncle kidnaps her. Step aunt and step gran seem to cover it up. And Shannon prefers to stay with foster parents and her new cat than go home with her mum.
This little girl is the same age as my daughter.
What a sad state of affairs.
:(
Typical of low lifes in this country.
Shannon should count her lucky stars she has broken free at such a young age and is now likely to have a better life because of it.
Unfortunately all the other kids will continue to be brought up with no morals or understanding of decent honest life, and will then end up just like their parents having 10 kids each, who will all then in turn each have another ten kids slowly making the honest middle/working class extinct because they cant afford to have their own as they are paying for other peoples.
Its real life shameless.
Warthog
10-04-08, 02:34 PM
Its all very sad for kids like Shannon Matthews, but there are more and more examples like this and it show why Britain is going to the dogs. What happened to family values, decency, honesty??
Dave The Rave
10-04-08, 02:42 PM
Don't even start me on this. Some kids are not given a chance in life. I bet they thought they will cash up on all of this ... watching all the hype around Madelaine MC ... they though they will do the same!
Its all very sad for kids like Shannon Matthews, but there are more and more examples like this and it show why Britain is going to the dogs. What happened to family values, decency, honesty??
+1
To generalise (and I'm not saying that all single parents are bad etc, so don't flame me) but the overall trend and breakdown of the family unit has a lot to answer for regarding todays society.
Poor Shannon. Lets hope she is looked after by the system, and gets a little help out of society's gutter.
Supervox
10-04-08, 02:53 PM
Whislt I thoroughly agree with what's been written thus far, I also have a feeling that there is a LOT more to come from this story.
Whislt I thoroughly agree with what's been written thus far, I also have a feeling that there is a LOT more to come from this story.
Totally agree.
Whislt I thoroughly agree with what's been written thus far, I also have a feeling that there is a LOT more to come from this story.
yup....... shannons mother had somthing to do with it all. i heard that they had asked the McCans for money to help find shannon
how can you do this to your own child?
Flamin_Squirrel
10-04-08, 03:00 PM
Poor Shannon. Lets hope she is looked after by the system, and gets a little help out of society's gutter.
The statistics on kids who go into care are truely terrible. The numbers who end up homeless, pregnant or in prison by the age of 19 make sobering reading (no reference to hand though).
I've heard opinions that this is in large part down to Labour closing down orphanages.
seedy100
10-04-08, 03:08 PM
It really is hard to know what to do for a kid like Shannon.
It doesnt seem like her mother can be trusted (assumption on my part as i dont have all the facts). Her step famaily seem to have pedophilic tendencies.
If the state removes her for her own good, as it seems it should, she may end up with a loving home, or she may end up in a childrens home, worst case like the place in Jersey.
I only hope it works out well for her!
What then should happen to the Adults concerned, they end up in the criminal "justice" system and cost us a fortune to keep locked away. - Why should we pay?
If they are not locked away then other kids are put at risk - possibly ours, so lock they up - But again why should we pay?
I have no answers, in fact I cant even formulate all of the questions in a coherent manner yet.
I can see why transportation to the colonies seemed like such a good idea way back when!
Confused!
I can see why transportation to the colonies seemed like such a good idea way back when!
I wish i could be transported to the colonies, they have done alright for themselves now.
MiniMatt
10-04-08, 03:11 PM
The system will undoubtedly work for this one kid. Of that I'm sure, she'll get fostered out and eventually adopted by a nice Guardian reading middle class family, she'll probably go to university. The spotlight is so bright on this one kid that things will work out for the best.
Unfortunately the same just ain't the case for the rest of them, and they are legion.
What amazes me more is that the whole charade went on for so long. I'm in danger of losing my liberal lefty credentials here, but the whole family, the extended family, hell the whole estate look thick as pig poo and I'm amazed they pulled it off for so long. Perhaps they didn't, perhaps the police always knew something was up and felt it safer to play along till the kid was safe. From the moment the uncle was charged only with kidnap and not with "kiddy-fiddling" or "attempted kiddy-fiddling" it was obvious they'd learnt (or perhaps, with the help of the kid's testimony, just confirmed) that this was not a case of "sick wacko abducts kid to satisfy twisted personal desires".
gettin2dizzy
10-04-08, 03:48 PM
How they let this thieving slag have 5 kids I don't know. After a lifetime of doing nothing for anyone they should have sterilised her after the second child.
CoolGirl
10-04-08, 04:06 PM
OK, this story is what it is, and the social network around the family may leave something to be desired.
But can we please stop with some of the unsavoury comments that are being made about 'these people'. If you had a background like that what chance would you stand of breaking out of it if that's the general (employing, tax-paying, public-service providing) public's attitude towards you? What would you do if one of 'them' came to you for a job because they were desperate to break out of the porverty trap?
there but for the grace of god (or whoever floats your boat) go all of us
John 675
10-04-08, 04:17 PM
sorry coolgirl there are systems in place to get anyone out of situations of poverty in the UK,
THE DOLE
RECRUITMENT AGENCYS
JOB CENTERS etc etc
however with people like this they just blatently choose not to.. or cant be bothered.. how can you put a child through this? and not considered a monster when caught?
if i was in there situation?.. i trust i have the initiative to get me out of it.. and fast.. by simply getting a job, organising daycare and making my partner work too.. then Move.. i believe you control your own life and ive always worked hard to get the nice things i have... so why should i pay for people like that who do next to nothing?
MiniMatt
10-04-08, 04:28 PM
Must... recover... liberal... lefty.... credentials....
Actually no, Coolgirl is right. It's not a case of choosing not to, it's a case of simply not knowing any other life, and not having the education to choose a different life. There are sink estates where people are third and fourth generation "dole scroungers" - their parents, their grandparents, even their great grand parents have known no other life, neither have their neighbours or their extended family. As such, if "you" (or I, or anyone), were in this position, no we most likely wouldn't have the iniative to get out of it as we simply wouldn't know of a way, inclination to take an escape means nothing if you perceive no escape.
CoolGirl
10-04-08, 04:31 PM
Must... recover... liberal... lefty.... credentials....
Actually no, Coolgirl is right. It's not a case of choosing not to, it's a case of simply not knowing any other life, and not having the education to choose a different life. There are sink estates where people are third and fourth generation "dole scroungers" - their parents, their grandparents, even their great grand parents have known no other life, neither have their neighbours or their extended family. As such, if "you" (or I, or anyone), were in this position, no we most likely wouldn't have the iniative to get out of it as we simply wouldn't know of a way, inclination to take an escape means nothing if you perceive no escape.
And not many folk willing to take a chance on you even if you did have the inclination.
Ever heard of the 'bucket of frogs' syndrome?
Gene genie
10-04-08, 05:09 PM
don't feel sorry for shannon at all, feel pleased for her. lets face it shes had a lucky escape. who'd want waynnetta slob for a mother, maybe the other 6 kids are taken from her aswell, they've got a better chance of a decent upbringing now than they ever would of done with them 2 as parents.
yorkie_chris
10-04-08, 06:34 PM
Must... recover... liberal... lefty.... credentials....
Actually no, Coolgirl is right. It's not a case of choosing not to, it's a case of simply not knowing any other life, and not having the education to choose a different life. There are sink estates where people are third and fourth generation "dole scroungers" - their parents, their grandparents, even their great grand parents have known no other life, neither have their neighbours or their extended family. As such, if "you" (or I, or anyone), were in this position, no we most likely wouldn't have the iniative to get out of it as we simply wouldn't know of a way, inclination to take an escape means nothing if you perceive no escape.
Noone forces them to stay in that sort of life. Bucket of frogs syndrome or not, nothing but their own lack of ambition to blame.
I blame the benefits people for pretty much all the problems in this country at the moment, why the hell should anyone get a free ride? If you choose not to work, then starve.
Despite a pretty healthy hatred for communism, the chinese have this one spot on, over there, if you're out of work then you can turn up to the "dole office" in a morning, do a days work sweeping streets or other such task, and get a days pay for it. Spot on.
ok so first of they say she ran away, yer ok she might of done, so what was her reasons, was it because of the stepdad, was it because of the pics on the computer?? whys he been remarded in custody for,
so no all the family is in care, what did her mum think it was a money spinner for them?
when she knew where she was why cover it up and lie?? they proved she had phoned her during the time she was missing?
theres loads missing from the puplic about this and sorry to say we will never know
Jools'SV Now
10-04-08, 06:47 PM
waynette slob comes to mind
"i want a brown baby Wayne, like all the other mums on the estate"
Why should the benefits office pay for them?
cos if they didn't the only way for families like this to carry on affording 40 fags a day would be to burgle your house more often and flog your stuff.
gettin dizzy,
Sterilisation?
a little harsh...how would you determine who to sterilise and who not to?
a smell test?, accent?, ciggy brand?
you there, smoking the cheapo fags - no more than 2 kids for you.
timwilky
10-04-08, 07:12 PM
I don't intent to make any comments about Shannon's family as I am sure the press will do a good job of crucifying them.
However, listening to Gary Newlove's widow today. I have to agree with her. Society has let down many of our children, they now lack any form of morel guidance and do what ever they please. Unfortunately that also includes irresponsible breeding.
Gene genie
10-04-08, 07:19 PM
+1I don't intent to make any comments about Shannon's family as I am sure the press will do a good job of crucifying them.
However, listening to Gary Newlove's widow today. I have to agree with her. Society has let down many of our children, they now lack any form of morel guidance and do what ever they please. Unfortunately that also includes irresponsible breeding.
dizzyblonde
10-04-08, 07:22 PM
Doesn't Shannons real dad want to have her in his care? Most people would just assume under the circumstances she would be put in care...but she does have a dad.
I have no idea where I have seen her real dad, but I live in a council estate in Halifax and I'm pretty sure I have seen him with people over here before, I just can't think where I've seen him......it'll dawn on me.
I do believe that with a mother like that and stepdad that the poor lass has probably now got a small chance of getting an improvement in her life.
Seeing firsthand what goes on in these large 'estate' families here, the whole saga hasn't surprised me at all. Its life I'm afraid and most educated, better off peeps just are shocked by it because they never get exposed to it.
yorkie_chris
10-04-08, 07:41 PM
Didn't they do this on shameless?
dizzyblonde
10-04-08, 07:55 PM
yes they did
I don't give a monkeys about her family. It's the girl I care about. What she must have seen in her 9 years... I so hope that foster care will open a new life to her. Not necessarily an affluent middle class life - we are too good at imposing our own norms on other people - but one where she can have friends, go to school, and live as much a normal life as she can ever hope for given what's happened, without all the jerks and failures that are pretty much all she has ever known.
gettin2dizzy
10-04-08, 08:50 PM
gettin dizzy,
Sterilisation?
a little harsh...how would you determine who to sterilise and who not to?
a smell test?, accent?, ciggy brand?
you there, smoking the cheapo fags - no more than 2 kids for you.
She's a leech. Everyone deserves a couple of chances of course. But how do you end up with 5 children never having held down a job?! She's obviously not capable of supporting herself never mind children. Cut her tubes I say.
EDIT: seems she's being done for negligence - appropriate.
slark01
10-04-08, 09:00 PM
I don't give a monkeys about her family. It's the girl I care about. What she must have seen in her 9 years... I so hope that foster care will open a new life to her. Not necessarily an affluent middle class life - we are too good at imposing our own norms on other people - but one where she can have friends, go to school, and live as much a normal life as she can ever hope for given what's happened, without all the jerks and failures that are pretty much all she has ever known.
+1
timwilky
10-04-08, 11:33 PM
Children are resilient. they thrive on love. but can quickly learn to be as parasitic as their peers. I just hope the shambles that is the Mathews family is quickly obliterated.
When a child is unfortunately unable to live with their family. It would appear to me that there is a desire to place the child with the extended family. Unfortunately in this case I hear them banjo starting to strike a chord.
This in turn sickens me. I am a grand parent. If anything happened to my kids. I would want that the authorities would want Lynne and myself to care for our grandkids. In this poor child's case. Does anyone know which child has which grandparent?.
Strange that the prison system has a nice way with some offenders. Prisoners may well be the dregs of society. But many of them are parents. Deprived from their children. I cannot believe that many will tolerate somebody that they now view as having contributed to the neglect or worse abuse of their own child.
Chances are. This case may never get to court.
can any one blame the parents ?
WHY work ? ...........there is millions who do 12 hour shifts, 7 days a week,
AND pay's tax....
stay at home and get money for err...having kids.
hold on.. who is the donkey ...................
but after all that i would still work, any work....
Foreigners coming here and taking our jobs……you know the ones that we cant do / wont do…. Why should we, they pay tax and I can just about make it to the post office to collect my dole...
there is something very wrong here...:smt115
I feel sorry for shannon ....
It's their up bringing! B*LL*CKS!!!!
People should always strive to change their lives if they don't like them - they just can't be bothered.
My parents came from a poor working class background and did their best to give me the things they never had and worked hard all of their lives to ensure I didn't have as tougher time as they did.
Now I do a full-time job and a part-time job to try and make sure my kids too have the things I didn't and don't have to live in certain areas. I choose to do this and if I was ever out of work would do anything (...and I MEAN anything) to put food on the table and pay the mortgage.
On the other hand my sister is a lay about who doesn't work, smokes, drinks has two kids.
She has a house which is bigger than mine and her kids are always in designer gear - HOW?
and how can it be fair? so I ask you what incentive is their for me to work, other than the fact that every month I pay my mortgage on MY house.
The Shannon case is not about their circumstances and I don't know the full facts, none of us do, but every person should know right from wrong.
I protect my kids from as much harm as possible and would not put them in a situation which could knowingly be to their detriment. I chose to have them and they are my world. Anyone or anything that tried to hurt them would be dealt with severely (whether you think that an eye for an eye is wrong or not) that is my way!
How can anyone have indecent images of kids and be a parent?
How could you go on holiday, go out for a meal and leave your kids asleep in the apartment? (sorry McCanns, I just wouldn't do that)
These people are not responsible enough to have kids and should not be allowed to have them. I hate reading stuff like this as it makes my blood boil.
Kev, did you pick up on this on the BBC news website. It'll make your day.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/somerset/7341160.stm
Ed - if I wasn't just about to go for my last little run before sunday's jog I'd write a full-out rant, but I''l leave it for the others.
John 675
11-04-08, 09:19 AM
It's their up bringing! B*LL*CKS!!!!
People should always strive to change their lives if they don't like them - they just can't be bothered.
My parents came from a poor working class background and did their best to give me the things they never had and worked hard all of their lives to ensure I didn't have as tougher time as they did.
Now I do a full-time job and a part-time job to try and make sure my kids too have the things I didn't and don't have to live in certain areas. I choose to do this and if I was ever out of work would do anything (...and I MEAN anything) to put food on the table and pay the mortgage.
On the other hand my sister is a lay about who doesn't work, smokes, drinks has two kids.
She has a house which is bigger than mine and her kids are always in designer gear - HOW?
and how can it be fair? so I ask you what incentive is their for me to work, other than the fact that every month I pay my mortgage on MY house.
The Shannon case is not about their circumstances and I don't know the full facts, none of us do, but every person should know right from wrong.
I protect my kids from as much harm as possible and would not put them in a situation which could knowingly be to their detriment. I chose to have them and they are my world. Anyone or anything that tried to hurt them would be dealt with severely (whether you think that an eye for an eye is wrong or not) that is my way!
How can anyone have indecent images of kids and be a parent?
How could you go on holiday, go out for a meal and leave your kids asleep in the apartment? (sorry McCanns, I just wouldn't do that)
These people are not responsible enough to have kids and should not be allowed to have them. I hate reading stuff like this as it makes my blood boil.
+1
MiniMatt
11-04-08, 09:20 AM
OK, this story is what it is, and the social network around the family may leave something to be desired.
But can we please stop with some of the unsavoury comments that are being made about 'these people'. If you had a background like that what chance would you stand of breaking out of it if that's the general (employing, tax-paying, public-service providing) public's attitude towards you? What would you do if one of 'them' came to you for a job because they were desperate to break out of the porverty trap?
there but for the grace of god (or whoever floats your boat) go all of us
Sorry Coolgirl, kudos for trying, but as you can see from the subsequent two pages, the Daily Express sponsored lynch mob is now in full effect. Don't get disheartened, it's not a representative opinion, just a particularly noisy pitch-fork wielding one :D
I've been through this so many times and I've lost the patience to do so again. If anyone wants to continue the argument just go through most of my previous posts, copy & paste; might as well copy & paste the responses too as I imagine I've not changed anyone's opinion :D
Sorry Coolgirl, kudos for trying, but as you can see from the subsequent two pages, the Daily Express sponsored lynch mob is now in full effect. Don't get disheartened, it's not a representative opinion, just a particularly noisy pitch-fork wielding one :D
I've been through this so many times and I've lost the patience to do so again. If anyone wants to continue the argument just go through most of my previous posts, copy & paste; might as well copy & paste the responses too as I imagine I've not changed anyone's opinion :D
MiniMatt - where's your spirit??? I remember our last tear-up, it was most enjoyable. Now where's me pitch fork and burning torch???:p
MiniMatt
11-04-08, 10:16 AM
MiniMatt - where's your spirit??? I remember our last tear-up, it was most enjoyable. Now where's me pitch fork and burning torch???:p
Oh go on then, seeing as it's you :D
I'll start with your good self as I know you're 'ard enough to take it :D
On the other hand my sister is a lay about who doesn't work, smokes, drinks has two kids.
She has a house which is bigger than mine and her kids are always in designer gear - HOW?
and how can it be fair? so I ask you what incentive is their for me to work, other than the fact that every month I pay my mortgage on MY house.
Firstly, I hope for your sake your sister doesn't read this :D Or at least I hope you can run faster than her :D
Ok, fairness, on the face of it you're looking at the size of her house and the clothes her kids wear and thinking it's not fair. Lets assume that whatever her flaws your sister, like you, wants the very best for her kids, she wants her kids to grow up succesful and happy. Now...
Whose kids stand more chance of growing up succesful & happy, productive members of society?
Whose kids are going to get better grades at school?
Whose kids stand more chance of avoiding the temptations of drink, drugs & crime?
Whose kids are likely to grow up with a diverse cultural experience and develop a wide range of hobbies and interests, form strong friendships, and lead rewarding fulfilling lives?I'm willing to bet you'll concede that your own kids stand a far better chance of acheiving these things than your sister's. You still think it's unfair? You're willing to trade all that in for a bigger house and a designer pair of trainers?
People always seem to focus on material needs being provided for and think that this makes the system unfair. It's the opportunities, the chances in life, the fulfillness of life that makes the system unfair.
yorkie_chris
11-04-08, 10:18 AM
So why pay for these leeches to live?
MiniMatt
11-04-08, 10:22 AM
So why pay for these leeches to live?
So your solution? Let them starve? Let their kids starve? Sorry, but I don't want to live in that country. You can if you like. It's called Zimbabwe. Or Rwanda. Or Sierra Leone. I'm sure you can get a flight today.
Firstly, I hope for your sake your sister doesn't read this :D Or at least I hope you can run faster than her :D
Ok, fairness, on the face of it you're looking at the size of her house and the clothes her kids wear and thinking it's not fair. Lets assume that whatever her flaws your sister, like you, wants the very best for her kids, she wants her kids to grow up succesful and happy. Now...
Whose kids stand more chance of growing up succesful & happy, productive members of society?
Whose kids are going to get better grades at school?
Whose kids stand more chance of avoiding the temptations of drink, drugs & crime?
Whose kids are likely to grow up with a diverse cultural experience and develop a wide range of hobbies and interests, form strong friendships, and lead rewarding fulfilling lives?I'm willing to bet you'll concede that your own kids stand a far better chance of acheiving these things than your sister's. You still think it's unfair? You're willing to trade all that in for a bigger house and a designer pair of trainers?
People always seem to focus on material needs being provided for and think that this makes the system unfair. It's the opportunities, the chances in life, the fulfillness of life that makes the system unfair.
Didn't I mention she's lardy too!!! LOL!
MiniMatt I think I agree with you that (hopefully) my kids will turn out more rounded individuals than hers and actually her kids have already been exposed to things I would never let my kids be exposed to, but that is down to a set of choices my sister had made for herself and she does/should know better.
Afterall we come from the same home and had the same up bringing.
Her life is a million miles away from mine and yes I did for this focus on the materialistic things because it riles me that I get taxed and taxed again and she does nothing for the things she has. What we are is a direct result of choices we make for ourselves, good or bad.
So whilst saying that if you have a certain upbringing that is all you know and therefore that is how you will turn out, this particular example shows it not to be the case.
yorkie_chris
11-04-08, 10:26 AM
No not at all, but there's plenty ditches need digging and roads need sweeping.
(Edit: this was supposed to follow minimatts post)
No not at all, but there's plenty ditches need digging and roads need sweeping.
+1 - there is always something to do to earn money, I'm sure of that.
The problem we have is whilst you are getting a house paid for and enough money for clothes, food etc. what incentive do you have to work and 'better' yourself?
So your solution? Let them starve? Let their kids starve?
No .......let their parents get off their arses and do some hard work to earn the money instead of sucking it from society. Once they are capable of looking after themselves then they should have kids.
yorkie_chris
11-04-08, 10:30 AM
Though in fact, looking at some of the estates round here it could be a good option :-P
MiniMatt
11-04-08, 10:57 AM
No not at all, but there's plenty ditches need digging and roads need sweeping.
No .......let their parents get off their arses and do some hard work to earn the money instead of sucking it from society. Once they are capable of looking after themselves then they should have kids.
So bring back the Workhouse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workhouse)? Why do you think it was abolished in the first place? Because it failed to meet the objectives set.
And who's going to look after the 5 kids whilst you send single mum off to break rocks or whatever pointless demeaning task you set her from your lofty superiour position? Stop - I know your first answer to that - it'll be something like "the silly bint should have thought of that before she got knocked up". But tough, we're still left with what to do with the kids? So do we take them all into care? How many new orphanages are we going to have to build to dump all these kids into? History has already shown that the majority of kids who come out of massive state run orphanages fair pretty badly in life. Oh, and how much is it going to cost to build and run them? How does that compare to the current social spending costs? If you're going to play arm-chair fascist, make sure you play arm-chair economist too.
the_lone_wolf
11-04-08, 11:05 AM
And who's going to look after the 5 kids whilst you send single mum off...
get the children to eat the parents...
problem solved, parents no longer sponging benefits, children don't starve as you can keep things fresh for ages if you know how to use tupperware and a freezer, then when they get to child-bearing age (about 11 it would seem) their children can eat them
and the cycle of life continues
And who's going to look after the 5 kids whilst you send single mum off to break rocks or whatever pointless demeaning task you set her from your lofty superiour position? Stop - I know your first answer to that - it'll be something like "the silly bint should have thought of that before she got knocked up". But tough, we're still left with what to do with the kids? So do we take them all into care? How many new orphanages are we going to have to build to dump all these kids into? History has already shown that the majority of kids who come out of massive state run orphanages fair pretty badly in life. Oh, and how much is it going to cost to build and run them? How does that compare to the current social spending costs? If you're going to play arm-chair fascist, make sure you play arm-chair economist too.
It cant be solved easily, I have said it before, they are like rats in society (another problem which is hard to fix) The only solution is a cull (unrealistic i know lol).
The main problem is that the problem is already way out of control, the only way to fix the problem, and bring it back into line is to be harsh but fair.....and no one has the balls to do that as nobody wants to upset anyone.
I have plenty of ideas, many of them probably would breach peoples human rights, but it would sort out the problem.
One simple one would be to tell people...YOU CANT AFFORD KIDS......DONT HAVE THEM......then enforce it. It would take a couple of years but slowly the ever increasing 2nd and 3rd generation of low lifes would start decreasing and then there would be a turnaround, honest working people would slowly start to out number the wasters........and do you know what as there is less of them to pay for, it might just improve the state of the UK's economy.
yorkie_chris
11-04-08, 11:11 AM
The only way to do it is cut off the benefits, and also you can't really tell these people anything. You can't talk to your dog and expect it to understand :-P
MiniMatt
11-04-08, 11:14 AM
The problem we have is whilst you are getting a house paid for and enough money for clothes, food etc. what incentive do you have to work and 'better' yourself?
I think we've already established, in fact you're living proof, that the incentive is that better life, the better opportunities for ones offspring, the more rich and diverse lifestyle. Some see that incentive, others don't; I'd argue that after several generations in a sink estate very very few are able to see that incentive.
The confusion arises because people see the problem and the solution in one sentence. "The problem we have is whilst you are getting a house paid for and enough money for clothes, food etc. what incentive do you have to work and 'better' yourself?" - the lazy thinking arm-chair facist believes that the solution is in the same sentence, ie. that by removing state support you automatically create a society of upstanding citizens with rich fulfilling lives. There are plenty of countries around the world with little to no state support, where people are left to fend for themselves. You wouldn't want to live in any one of them - they ain't utopian.
As a side note, and at the risk of invoking Godwins Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law), I see that this discussion is beginning to describe whole sectors of society as "scum", "leeches", "dregs", "less than human"; this is how our very own society used to routinely describe black people, or Irish, or women for that matter. A certain other, more recent, government took this thinking to it's logical extreme and set about removing these sub human people from the face of the earth in the misguided attempt to create a "better" world.
MiniMatt
11-04-08, 11:23 AM
The only way to do it is cut off the benefits, and also you can't really tell these people anything. You can't talk to your dog and expect it to understand :-P
It cant be solved easily, I have said it before, they are like rats in society (another problem which is hard to fix) The only solution is a cull (unrealistic i know lol).
Oh sod it, I skirted around it before, now we're describing whole sectors of society as rats, and dogs, I hereby fully invoke Godwins Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law) - this is Nazism.
dizzyblonde
11-04-08, 11:25 AM
example from my council estate street.....
There is a retired couple who live next door to me. He retired a few years back and worked all his life, think his wife worked part time but shes retired. They have 3 daughters who live on this street too.
Eldest daughter:- has three kids of reasonable years apart, resonable car, a partner with a good job and she works herself, lives in a council house but pays her way for it
Middle daughter:- has 4 girls, all born a year or so apart, sits at home all day doing nowt, has her house paid for, its a council house, I think her partner comes and goes, who is dad to the youngest two, the eldest and one below are to two other blokes....screams shes always skint
Youngest daughter:- got pregnant at 15, gets given a council house over the road, her boyfriend lived there, but can't keep his hands off cars and drives around with no license...gets thrown out on a regular basis( in the nick too) throws him out for the last time and finds shes pregnat again now 19. Lives as a single mum....so am I by the way. She sits at home all day and does nowt and gets everything paid for
I get on with these people, my neighbours have brought up kids like anyone else, they really are the nicest couple, really salt of the earth...however the daughters are in control of their own lives. So why does the eldest work and conduct what most peeps think is a normal life and the other two are considered dossers??
No idea, its none of my business, I wouldn't have chosen to live like the youngest two though
yorkie_chris
11-04-08, 11:27 AM
I think we've already established, in fact you're living proof, that the incentive is that better life, the better opportunities for ones offspring, the more rich and diverse lifestyle. Some see that incentive, others don't; I'd argue that after several generations in a sink estate very very few are able to see that incentive.
The confusion arises because people see the problem and the solution in one sentence. "The problem we have is whilst you are getting a house paid for and enough money for clothes, food etc. what incentive do you have to work and 'better' yourself?" - the lazy thinking arm-chair facist believes that the solution is in the same sentence, ie. that by removing state support you automatically create a society of upstanding citizens with rich fulfilling lives. There are plenty of countries around the world with little to no state support, where people are left to fend for themselves. You wouldn't want to live in any one of them - they ain't utopian.
Well there's plenty people who are scum and leeches.
So then, where is the percieveable benefit of paying people undeserved forever and a day? Rewarding ******* children? Causing this whole "sink estate"/slum issue.
And also while all this is going on, hardworking people are being ROBBED, over and over, income tax, savings tax, VAT, death tax etc etc. All to pay these feckless scroungers and to feather the nests of those in power.
yorkie_chris
11-04-08, 11:32 AM
The only way to do it is cut off the benefits, and also you can't really tell these people anything. You can't talk to your dog and expect it to understand :-P
Oh sod it, I skirted around it before, now we're describing whole sectors of society as rats, and dogs, I hereby fully invoke Godwins Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law) - this is Nazism.
Well since you quoted me in that one I'll respond.
The current thinking gives people more information and help on how to live a good life than ever before, there's free contraception, medical help with addictions. The problem is getting worse. If you're not going to listen to advice, and seek reward, then the only way forward is punishment. I.e no more free money!
If not believing all this sociological $hit about people not having free will and automatically becoming a crackhead if you grow up on an estate makes me a nazi, then sieg heil.
SoulKiss
11-04-08, 12:16 PM
and at the risk of invoking Godwins Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law),
Damn - he dodged it :P
SoulKiss
11-04-08, 12:17 PM
Oh sod it, I skirted around it before, now we're describing whole sectors of society as rats, and dogs, I hereby fully invoke Godwins Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law) - this is Nazism.
OOPS - You lose :P
CoolGirl
11-04-08, 12:44 PM
Oh sod it, I skirted around it before, now we're describing whole sectors of society as rats, and dogs, I hereby fully invoke Godwins Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law) - this is Nazism.
my work here is done;)
Anyone's interested in how the government's trying to get people to get a job and keep a job, see here:
http://www.dius.gov.uk/publications/7381-TSO-Skills.pdf
(I didn't write this one, honest!)
note the specifics for lone parents and those on incapacity benefit.
my work here is done;)
Anyone's interested in how the government's trying to get people to get a job and keep a job, see here:
http://www.dius.gov.uk/publications/7381-TSO-Skills.pdf
(I didn't write this one, honest!)
note the specifics for lone parents and those on incapacity benefit.
More money wasted.
CoolGirl
11-04-08, 01:00 PM
More money wasted.
well, as I said, we can offer all the help we like but if no-one will employ them... It's all too easy to look down on people http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=SFiQihYZn_0
TBH I haven't heard specifics in the news with regards comments passed on this forum about the social/financial situation of the Matthews family. But I'm shocked at the amount of generalisation there has been in this thread.
I grew up in Dewsbury, and still have family & close friends living in Dewsbury. Probably 80% of the people I went to school with still live in the area. The comment about the estate the Matthews live on, I wonder if the poster has ever visited it, nay, even knows the name of the housing estate? Yet implications are cast on those that live there.
Don't get me wrong, I don't know the Matthew's personally, and I'm not sure if I even know them indirectly.
Coolgirl, thank you for the posts, as I know you have a more intimate knowledge of the social system than most. Thanks also to the others that have posted similar comments.
My thoughts are with Shannon, so long as she is looked after, be that with her family or not, what else matters?
timwilky
11-04-08, 01:10 PM
Scum breed instead of working. The more kids the bigger the fortnightly giro.
OK we don't have the chinese compulsory sterilisation programme. However, surely after her 3rd kid, the authorities should have been intervening to ensure enough is enough.
I started this thread about Shannon. But it's obvious that so many people who should know better have let her - and six other children - down oh so badly, to the extent where she would rather live with foster parents than with her mum.
I can see both sides here on the wider issues. People need to be given tools to pull themselves up, it's no good saying 'go get a job' if all they have ever known is being treated like dirt. Low achievement and low self-esteem are not only interconnected, they are self-perpetuating. That, and inertia, are very very difficult to break out of. On the other hand, we (as a nation I mean) seem to be tacitly approving failure as a lifestyle because we don't push the issues hard enough and it's costing a fortune, not only in benefits but in all the social problems it causes too.
:rant:
I think people like "blanket fixes" & unfortunately, one of the best/worst thing about a democracy is that we get more flexibility with our society i.e. we are becoming less main-streamed and hence need individual responses, even down to our societies current policy of neglecting our younger generation. My personal belief is that Heinlein was right - introduce baby licences and brutally enforce it. That would give us room to try and fix some of the people in society mentally maimed through lack of emotional/physical care; but nothing I can think of would be a quick fix for my/our society.
In my opinion - the inmates are running the asylum and have been doing so since 1968.
MiniMatt
11-04-08, 02:15 PM
OOPS - You lose :P
Yep, I'm out :D krhall tempted me back in to the ring for a retirement bout but I'm not playing this game any more :D
To be honest, it's gone way beyond mere argument for the sake of argument and has hit an emotional nerve. Some of the views espoused, if even facitiously, I find abhorent and vile to my very core. Can't really effectively argue if I'm that emotionally involved.
Yep, I'm out :D krhall tempted me back in to the ring for a retirement bout but I'm not playing this game any more :D
Sorry fella, you can't beat a social sparring.
As ever I enjoy all sides of the arguement, but agree with Ed's original comment that this poor girl has had to endure more in her 9 years than any person ever should and I think that is something every person onthis forum can actually agree on.
MiniMatt - Until next time I bid you adieu.........
Sorry fella, you can't beat a social sparring.
As ever I enjoy all sides of the arguement, but agree with Ed's original comment that this poor girl has had to endure more in her 9 years than any person ever should and I think that is something every person onthis forum can actually agree on.
MiniMatt - Until next time I bid you adieu.........
+1
I'm just in it for the banter, not to stick knifes into personal nerves.
What sort of life must she have had. 7 kids, 5 fathers. Stepdad likes looking at pics of kiddies. Uncle kidnaps her. Step aunt and step gran seem to cover it up. And Shannon prefers to stay with foster parents and her new cat than go home with her mum.
This little girl is the same age as my daughter.
What a sad state of affairs.
:(Totally agree. Lets hope that she stays with the foster family and that she never goes back to that thing they call a mum or family. Some people should really be strailised at birth!
missyburd
11-04-08, 02:58 PM
Seeing firsthand what goes on in these large 'estate' families here, the whole saga hasn't surprised me at all. Its life I'm afraid and most educated, better off peeps just are shocked by it because they never get exposed to it.
Having lived on two council estates I can agree. The problem is with the stereotype, yes there will always be large families leeching off benefits but there are always a considerable number of families that although not better off, still try their very best to make up for that fact by doing what they can, whether that be the odd cleaning job or whatever. You don't pick your life unfortunately but you can choose whether or not to just 'make do' or actually get up and do something about it. But families which have never known anything different will not be inclined to change matters. Fortunately we came from a nice house that was ours and through circumstances I won't go into ended up in council houses for a few years. Now in a decent place with a mortgage is better once more, but it was hell before.
Shannon is one of the lucky ones, she will benefit from this business and has been given a chance, it's the other children belonging to these 'people' that I feel sorry for :(
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bradford/7342150.stm
shonadoll
11-04-08, 04:58 PM
I think people find this thread so emotive, because they feel so sorry for Shannon. AND the other five children. What's happening to them?
Unfortunately I do believe that people should be discouraged from having more children than they can support, financially and emotionally, out of concern for the lives of these children, who will eventually go on and have families of their own.
There was a scheme in the USA where parents got help with the first two children, but no extra financial help if they had more while on welfare assistance, though were supported in other ways,i.e. childcare, so they had the opportunity to earn more.
I think we have gone too far in this country, the other way, anyone of us can make a mistake, but when it is a series of mistakes that could ruin others' lives, then I think action should be taken.
I wish the best for that poor girl.
Pedrosa
11-04-08, 05:38 PM
I cannot believe that no one has taken issue with Flaming Squirrel's suggestion that the root of the problem lies with Labour Goverments due to them closing orphanages! What a seriously ridiculous comment to make.
Has he not been keeping an eye on the situation over in Jersey? Where the poor residents of an orphanage have been systematically abused for years? There are many other such cases over the years also.
And if his unresearched figures are so damning,citing the natural progression of the less attractive behaviour types for ex orphanage residents....is it not best that they are no longer in existance?
I dont believe that there is more abuse going on today,it just scomes more swiftly to the public domain. That said though,I do believe that the moral fibre of the children of the Yuppy era is dire and will lead to much more decline before the situation ever improves.
For what it is worth, the UK is not alone in suffering this phenomenon.
Quiff Wichard
11-04-08, 08:19 PM
I really feel for Shannon-
but now she is free..
however - mum is mum and family is family and she WILL miss them all.
and i cant help wonderin if she ever ever will be free of it.. I mean she will now be property of the press forever- I fear that the policemay have kept her in "protection" for this long as they are aware of the interest ongoing for all her life and she may have to be put in something akin to a witness protection programme and have a new name etc
or this is going to follow her around for the rest of her life.
tigersaw
11-04-08, 08:42 PM
or this is going to follow her around for the rest of her life.
I doubt it, people lose interest very quickly.
Wayluya
11-04-08, 08:46 PM
and also you can't really tell these people anything. You can't talk to your dog and expect it to understand :-P
:p:p:p
It is nice to think that "all" everyone needs is opportunity and some help to "break the cycle".........but quite often their is a good reason why folk and families are at the bottom of the heap.........as yer can't "cure" not being bright or not having any self motivation........and these things do get passed down the genes........
In "the good old days" War and Pestilence stopped the bottom of the human food chain expanding too much. The answer? probably isn't one.
Quiff Wichard
11-04-08, 08:49 PM
talkin the press not people..
they keep draggin out
Louise Brown first test tube baby
The walton sextuplets ..
etc
and they are good stories..
so they will monitor her no doubt and catch her when shes 18 and needs some cash .
I mean they even run stories now and again on the jamie Bulger story and wereabouts of the boys who are now men.. so there is no level they wont stoop to
yorkie_chris
11-04-08, 08:52 PM
In "the good old days" War and Pestilence stopped the bottom of the human food chain expanding too much. The answer? probably isn't one.
More war and pestilence? :-P
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