Arranged marriages - Master race

[Blue_SV650S]

Been discussing these with an colleague of mine, she had an arranged marriage (against her will) and she was saying how her niece is being pressured for an arranged marriage now. Her niece actually wants to go off to uni, but not allowed to as she needs to get married (according to her family). Some of the stuff she comes out with that women are expected and not expected to do sounds so backwards! .. Anyway, that is a side issue!! :D

I have had many conversations with my colleague finding out about her traditions and the Indian culture as it is facinating, as mentioned, much of it ‘scares’ me though, the naivety and isolation of the women. But partially the racist views against others. Basically if you married a white man, or worse still a black man you would be shunned by the traditionalists.

So, back to what prompted this thread in particular. :D

Arranged marriages – basically the parents find a suitor and there are certain criteria. Stating heritage and profession, even looks (any disability, even down to silly stuff like a ‘lazy eye’ is highly undesirable and puts you well down the pecking order).

So what is the difference between this culture and trying to achieve a master race?!?!? :scratch: … if you look at it like that it is quite horrific isn’t it :shock:

[SoulKiss]

So what is the difference between this culture and what Hitler was trying to achieve with his master race?!?!? :scratch: … if you look at it like that it is quite horrific isn’t it :shock:

I hereby invoke Godwins Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law), declare Blue the loser of the discussion and call for a Mod to lock this thread :P

[Blue_SV650S]

I hereby invoke Godwins Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law), declare Blue the loser of the discussion and call for a Mod to lock this thread :P

I have taken the reference to Hitlers views out!

As for locking it, if my colleague is happy to openly discuss this stuff with me, I don't see why it needs to be locked .. why can't it be discussed here? who are you trying to protect? :scratch:

[gettin2dizzy]

Religion ey ;) Full of weird crap

[Blue_SV650S]

Religion ey ;) Full of weird crap

Don't get religion and culture confused ;)

The two are linked, but there is a distinction! ;)

[SoulKiss]

If I took the reference to Hitler out would it then be allowable? If my colleague is happy to openly discuss this stuff with me, I don't see why it needs to be locked .. who are you trying to protect? :scratch:

LOL Blue - was only funning - was expecting someone knowledgeable of Godwins Law (or who had read the link I posted) to invoke Quirks Exception on my post :P

Anyways, back on topic.....

Racism is a funny one.

In this country it is usually only invoked when a White person is "supressing" a non-White.

However I have seen arguments in the street between men of similar skin colour but one from Africa and one from the Carribean.

Most of the comments made would, in my opinion be classable as racist, yet that card was never played, even tho they were from different cultures/countries.

Anyone of any race saying "you cant go out with that boy/girl" because of race is being racist, end of.

I often think that as a White guy in the UK/London I am possibly one of the most discriminated against people there is due to what I can and cant say/do (like use the N word.......)

[timwilky]

I had a colleague who was very well educated. His PHD was in nuclear physics and he had spent years on reactor engineering. His family wanted him to have an arranged marriage. Give up his employment to run a corner shop. They refused to accept that he was of a different generation, education to his parents and when he refused they threatened to cut off all family ties.

I have another colleague who is a networks engineer. Her family again pressured her to marry. When she refused, she got the well lets just have a holiday in Pakistan and meet up with family. She left home the following day for work and never went home. She actually told her mother that she didn't trust them.


As for the master race. I thought they didn't care about marriage. Wasn't Himmler telling senior SS that it was their duty to spawn as many aryan progeny as the Lebensborn program

[gettin2dizzy]

Don't get religion and culture confused ;)

The two are linked, but there is a distinction! ;)
Religion is person's beliefs and opinions concerning the existence, nature, and worship of God, a god, or gods, and divine involvement in the universe and human life.

Whereas 'Culture' is a large bird of prey with usually dark feathers and broad wings that feed on carrion. Often found on African plains.

;)

[Steve_God]

Religion ey ;) Full of weird crap
+1!
Not going to even comment... I'd only end up offending people with my 'non-religious views' which I'd rather not do :p

[yorkie_chris]

Racism is a funny one.

In this country it is usually only invoked when a White person is "supressing" a non-White.

But when it's the other way it's perfectly alright. :rolleyes:


As for the master race. I thought they didn't care about marriage. Wasn't Himmler telling senior SS that it was their duty to spawn as many aryan progeny as the Lebensborn program

That was in my understanding the idea of it, but just because marriage is involved here, and wasn't then, doesn't mean that the result of this isn't a "purer" breed of indian.


My Mother used to work on the special care baby unit, and apparently the 'stanis are very bad for this, more into each others cousins than the lancastrians (heh heh), as their culture apparantly means "buying in" to the family, which doesn't happen if they're already related. Leads to loads of problems with birth defects and such.

[yorkie_chris]

Religion ey ;) Full of weird crap

This isn't religion, it's racism :-P

I doubt the religion says anything close.

[timwilky]

My Mother used to work on the special care baby unit, and apparently the 'stanis are very bad for this, more into each others cousins than the lancastrians (heh heh), as their culture apparantly means "buying in" to the family, which doesn't happen if they're already related. Leads to loads of problems with birth defects and such.

Oi Cheeky, just got we all got 6 toes round here don't go confusing us with you Yorkshire banjo plucking inbreeds.

however, the MP's has been getting their fingers burnt whenever they talk about this sensitive subject (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/feb/11/religion.medicalscience)

[Speedy Claire]

My friend is Asian and her family tried to force her into an arranged marriage..... she refused as she had already fallen in love with someone who happened to be white. She was told that if she continued seeing him then she would be banished from the family. She left, married James and is living happily ever after but has not spoken to her family since. Incidentally my friends says that the worst racism she has ever come across has been from people of her own race.

I also worked with a Somalian student nurse who whilst over here doing her nurse training met a non somalian man... she became pregnant and had to have an abortion as had she taken the baby back home with her she would have been stoned to death. This was in 2004!!!

[yorkie_chris]

They need to enter into the modern world, they're not trading goats with their neighbors any more. (except maybe in Lancashire, but they all do it there...)

[xXBADGERXx]

I`d live in sin/Marry anyone of any colour as long as they were fun and a great person to be with , and if friends or family didn`t like it , then they can eat the peanuts out of my pooh :D

[redbouy]

They need to enter into the modern world, they're not trading goats with their neighbors any more. (except maybe in Lancashire, but they all do it there...)

Is this the same thing as arranged marriages ?:D

[Flamin_Squirrel]

They need to enter into the modern world, they're not trading goats with their neighbors any more. (except maybe in Lancashire, but they all do it there...)

If it's traditional to force your kids to marry that's fine and dandy...

... but not here in the UK.



To bring your children up in one country but expect them to act as if they were brought up in another is profoundly cruel.

[yorkie_chris]

If it's traditional to force your kids to marry that's fine and dandy...

... but not here in the UK.



To bring your children up in one country but expect them to act as if they were brought up in another is profoundly cruel.

Nail ... head

My opinion of it is the same as those radical eejits who seem to want sharia law over here, if you want to live by barbarian laws, f### off to a barbarian country.

[Blue_SV650S]

If it's traditional to force your kids to marry that's fine and dandy...

... but not here in the UK.



To bring your children up in one country but expect them to act as if they were brought up in another is profoundly cruel.

There are disturbing segregation issues my colleague has spoken of too, but lets not lose sight of the purpose of this thread. It'd be all to easy for this to deteriorate into a racism debate and I don't want that. =;

It is the selective coupling and hence selective breeding I am trying to bring to debate here.Again from how the women are treated perspective, if the woman doesn't drop kids very soon after marriage, the community start asking questions about fertility and again, the woman is shunned (even if it is the bloke shooting blanks, not her own infertility)!!! :shock: But again, does anyone not see this level of selective breeding is akin to a 'master race'? :study:

But once you get over the initial shock of it all, to be fair from a 'Darwinism' point of view it actually starts to make sense. As natural selection for humans is actually largely out the window now - picking the 'cream of the crop' ourselves to breed together actually might not be such a bad idea?!?!? Perhaps we should bring that into more cultures?!?! :scratch:

What is the matter with having a master race*??

*by that I mean the cream of the gene pools, not any specific colour/creed

[CoolGirl]

What is the matter with having a master race*??

*by that I mean the cream of the gene pools, not any specific colour/creed

Here's a nice re-rail for you.

Actually, it doesn't lead to a master race - conversely, it leads to recessive genetic disorders. (unless you used dna screening as part of the selection criteria)

[Blue_SV650S]

Here's a nice re-rail for you.

Actually, it doesn't lead to a master race - conversely, it leads to recessive genetic disorders. (unless you used dna screening as part of the selection criteria)

If the breeding is too 'close', then yes, it will cause genetic disorders. But the pool is pretty big ...

I can see this could be an issue with the current way as the community's people are coupled from are pretty 'tight' ... it was described to me in terms of 'villages' ... it is indeed not going to be long before you are marrying your 'daddys brother' and have 6 toes!!! :D

It is true, you do need to keep throwing in a bit of 'muck' every now and then ... which is where people like me might get lucky!! :D

[600+]

I believe that you have to be part of such cultures / families to understand such things. So here is my 2p :)

People belonging in minorities such as Pakistanis, Indians, Jews, Blacks, believe that they should only marry people from their own race as this creates less problems in the day to day family life AND obviously you are marrying someone from your own race which makes things more likeable as you are keeping things sort of in the family ;)

Now!! By minorities doesn't mean that they are really less in numbers or disadvantaged to another race BUT this is how they feel and that is what they do. For example, Asians in Birmingham are more than white people hence not a minority BUT this is how they feel. It's the difference of what is deemed as the norm - which in the UK people consider the norm to be white......similarly as in Greece is white Christian orthodox.

Have fun discussing it but at the end of the day comes down to "how hard a young person can stamp their foot on the floor" and be different.

It's not pleasant when you are cut off from your family, similarly though if you are in a constant war with them

[Wayluya]

What OP is describing is NOT an arranged marriage. It's a forced Marriage.

So much to say on this subject and so little point - no doubt the "R" word will be bandied about by those who have never been east of Milton Keynes or have a vested interest in these things continuing.

Folk from the 3rd world do have very different attitudes from those in "our" world for the very good and understandable reasons that to survive they simply can't be Liberal Democrat Yoghurt Knitters - and this manifests itself in all manner of "Weird Sh#t" much of which dates from the Dark Ages or before - and giving someone a Visa or Passport cannot fundamentally change their views anymore than doing so to old Whitey will in reverse......and de facto encouraging folk to live within their own communities and raise the next generations within is so dumb as to be nigh on unbelievable.....it's not immigration, it's Colonisation by rival tribes staking a claim to their own areas....of course a certain irony to that given the Brit History abroad and the Expat "communities" on the Costa del Chip Shop :D

I will admit that my views are coloured by experiances related to my late Missus (and her family) who hailed from the 3rd world - albeit not in a Muslim country.

If anyone had tried to force the Missus into being raped by a cousin she would have cut their b#llocks off. Literally.....and then got serious. ("Knife no good" - "why?" - "Handle no strong" - "Huh?" - "stab one time no good" - "why?" - "angry" - "arrrr" - "must do many time" :smt057).

Racism? Folk wanna go East of Milton Keynes to really understand what that term means........and often as not it is also directed at old Whitey - and has very little to do with Skin Colour.



Religion???!!!............

[SoulKiss]

Here's a nice re-rail for you.

Actually, it doesn't lead to a master race - conversely, it leads to recessive genetic disorders. (unless you used dna screening as part of the selection criteria)

AKA Gods little joke :P

[ThEGr33k]

If you want a master race get into genetics find the duff genes and get rid improve all the genes while you in there and there you go you have a kid who will never have disease rarely get ill live till a 150 at least fugure out pie to the 2 millionth digit within 2 mins in their head and look like a God(ess).

Then of course they wouldnt really be your child...

[Lozzo]

I`d live in sin/Marry anyone of any colour as long as they were fun and a great person to be with , and if friends or family didn`t like it , then they can eat the peanuts out of my pooh :D

I'm of the same view - hell, I'd even sleep with one of those white-honky chicks, Bro.

[Lozzo]

If you want a master race get into genetics find the duff genes and get rid improve all the genes while you in there and there you go you have a kid who will never have disease rarely get ill live till a 150 at least fugure out pie to the 2 millionth digit within 2 mins in their head and look like a God(ess).

Then of course they wouldnt really be your child...

They'd be one of mine :D

[Rog]

IIRC the origin of arranged marriages was to ensure that power bases remained in certain families wthin communities and then this is extended within the cast system. Although many have stated that this is culture and not religion it is my opinion that they are intrinsically linked. This is why you find that in very relligous communities which are in the minority in any country, city, area etc.. they tend to marry within their own community. This partly due to maintaining and preventing the dilution of the minority, but more over (again IMHO) The very relligous could not entertain having someone in their family who is not relligous or of a different faith.

We must remember that we too use to practice this arranged marriage upto the late victorian age. The notion of marrying for love to who we want is only a recent phenomina.


While I hate the thought of arranged marriages it is not against the law to ostricise a member of a community for going against your unwritten rules. We live in a free country and they have the right to practice their culture within the laws of the land.

[Lozzo]

Racism? Folk wanna go East of Milton Keynes to really understand what that term means........and often as not it is also directed at old Whitey - and has very little to do with Skin Colour.


I live 15 miles east of MK and I haven't a scooby wtf you're on about.
Bedford, where I hail from, is the most cosmopolitan town in the UK. We have at least one family from every nation on this planet living here - my family are accepted as the largest Maltese tribe in the area. Everyone gets on pretty well, we don't experience racism and race hate crime here as many other communities do.

In the town centre we have Muslims living alongside Sikhs, Hindus, West Indians and a huge Italian community as well as all the rest, everyone gets along well, and the immigrant population mixes well with the indigenous white community. If you look through our local rag you'll often see a white lad marrying an asian girl, or vice versa. It's not uncommon to see white/Italian and black/asian teenagers walking arm in arm through town and I'm bloody glad of it too.

If you want to see real racism in action, go a bit further east, to Norfolk or Suffolk. I was almost shunned at work when I lived in Norwich once, because I was foolish enough to mention the fact that I'm 3/4 Maltese. The level of ignorance shown by my colleagues defied belief, they treated me as if I ate freshly roasted babies for breakfast.

I'm not a supporter of arranged marriages, I think they belong in another time and not in our society. The practice of forcing young girls to go abroad 'on holiday' only to marry them off is a terrible thing, but there is little we can do with the current generation, it's up to those girls who live here now to change things as and when they have children of their own.

[yorkie_chris]

While I hate the thought of arranged marriages it is not against the law to ostricise a member of a community for going against your unwritten rules. We live in a free country and they have the right to practice their culture within the laws of the land.

Harrassment, intimidation? neither one particularly legal, and have seen a few cases of this.

[Rog]

Harrassment, intimidation? neither one particularly legal, and have seen a few cases of this.

I did say within the laws of the land. You are right though, but would be very difficult to prove if its borderline. When does well meaning sentiment become the above ?

[northwind]

I saw the comic Paul Sinha a while back, he has a fantastic sketch based on coming out to his very traditional Bengali father- his dad immediately accepts it, to his total shock... then to his horror starts working on an arranged gay marriage :smt025

Talk of a "master race" seems a bit daft though, it's not a eugenics/breeding program. What it is, is is a formalised version of what other communities/groups do for themselves. Oh no, you say, that's so unfair! Arranged marriages put ugly people, poor people, handicapped people down the pecking order. This makes them different to non-arranged marriages how? People get ostracised from their families for making an unpopular match... Again, never ever happens in non-arranged marriages does it? Pretty girls never marry rich ugly men. Obviously it inherently preserves caste and culture but that's not the sole goal.

The idea of the formally arranged marriage is a pretty repellant one to me, but as Wayluya says it's not inherently oppressive. That's purely down to execution. Obviously it can run to the extreme, but then you just don't usually hear of the cases where a man or woman refuses an arranged marriage and then carry on with their lives, or when a man and a woman marry after an arranged introduction and live happily ever after... and why would you? It's too commonplace to be interesting.

It's also odd that we think of it as an asian thing. Most famous arranged marriage in the UK? Charles and Diana.

In this country it is usually only invoked when a White person is "supressing" a non-White.


Nah, that's not true... I've seen a lot of asian vs black racism, frinstance, and up here the chinese and indian-origin communities seem to hate each other. Pretty nasty stuff sometimes. That's just my own personal experience, I'm sure there's all sorts. (Racism's weird in Edinburgh, we're by and large a very pasty white city, by default there's a reduction in racism as there's not many people to be racist at. I've no idea what would happen if you added 100000 middle eastern people. Better food probably)

People say "Oh, nobody bothers with black people being racist against whites", actually that's s***, demonstrably so- there's been succesful racial hatred prosecutions frinstance, and many employment cases. Just that "white v other" is the biggest single block, and it all gets lumped together (we don't consider WASP vs Chinese racism as a seperate issue to WASP vs Indian racism but we consider chinese vs indian racism to be), and that's also where the power differences mainly are- racism between 2 people on the street is one thing, but the fact is that WASM is still the senior power block in the UK, by default we tend to be in the positions of power and that's where racism really becomes a problem- limiting development and employment, suppressing culture and talent... Media representation... Political representation. Legal representation. Etc. Basically these things all exagerrate the effect that white vs other racism has. Black vs white racism just naturally has a much smaller impact than white vs black, just as male vs female sexism has a bigger impact than female vs male. And that's the reason anti-racist legal and public effort focusses on white vs other, it's the big problem and the obvious place to start. And the reason WASMs don't get the same level of specific attention and protection is that we don't need it as much. Also reportage is probably skewed. Simple really. Or so it seems to me.

[gettin2dizzy]

.


People say "Oh, nobody bothers with black people being racist against whites", actually that's s***, demonstrably so- there's been succesful racial hatred prosecutions frinstance, and many employment cases.
This reminds me of that film 'White men can't jump' about how white guys can't play basketball. Taking these stereotypes...Imagine the sequel 'Black men can't abide by the law' ;)

[yorkie_chris]

It's also odd that we think of it as an asian thing. Most famous arranged marriage in the UK? Charles and Diana.

Yeah it is worth pointing out that a few hundred years ago marriage was a common way to seal treaties with other nations.

[Wayluya]

I live 15 miles east of MK and I haven't a scooby wtf you're on about.

"East of Milton Keynes" was not meant that close :)........was a reference to wayyyyyy East and this being a very different place from "home" (Milton Keynes or wherever).


I was almost shunned at work when I lived in Norwich once, because I was foolish enough to mention the fact that I'm 3/4 Maltese.


Bet that made you cross :smt043.......and if you had a pound note for every time you heard that joke............ :-D:)

[Wayluya]

This reminds me of that film 'White men can't jump' about how white guys can't play basketball. Taking these stereotypes...Imagine the sequel 'Black men can't abide by the law' ;)

Yer Mother's an Astronaut :smt043:smt043

[sv-robo]

+1!
Not going to even comment... I'd only end up offending people with my 'non-religious views' which I'd rather not do :p

Amen +1

[Lozzo]

Bet that made you cross :smt043.......and if you had a pound note for every time you heard that joke............ :-D:)

I'd have a drawer full of useless bits of paper with a picture of my old boss on them...we've got them there poncey £1 coins now

[xXBADGERXx]

Hey I actually paid a Fiver for a pound note , My mum always promised me a pound note a week pocket money when I was a nipper , I never got it cos they changed to coins ........... damn well bought myself one :D

Anyhoo , give it 200 hundred years and we`ll all be exactly the same ..... and it will boil down to something else to argue about , Humans , as a race , can`t get on for long .

[northwind]

This reminds me of that film 'White men can't jump' about how white guys can't play basketball. Taking these stereotypes...Imagine the sequel 'Black men can't abide by the law' ;)

Aye, but then Woody could jump, that was kind of the point ;) "He's talkin' about yo mama!" "Nah, my mom couldn't have done any of those things, she was too drunk..."

[Wayluya]

I'd have a drawer full of useless bits of paper with a picture of my old boss on them...we've got them there poncey ?1 coins now

Doh!....I blame old age :confused:

[Lozzo]

Doh!....I blame old age :confused:

I don't. I'm probably older than you - I'm older than most