View Full Version : Road Positioning
At bikesafe on Tuesday night, the guy doing the presentation that evening was talking about positioning. I asked him his thoughts on using the whole of the road, which he said I shouldn’t do. Don’t bike cops do it? Yes, but we won’t suggest you do it. So we got into a bit of a discussion about it.
Using the whole road is something I do a lot, I’m very confident doing it- obviously I’m not talking about going round blind bends on the wrong side of the road to get a better line, but if its safe, using all the road that’s available.
To a lesser extent I also use the other side of the road, i.e just over the white line, when I know that when a car comes into view I’ll be back on my side of the road again.
The bike cop argued against all of these, saying “what if there’s a police car coming towards you doing exactly the same thing, what happens then?” and went on to say bike cops are perfectly safe doing this because they have radios and know if there’s a police car coming the other way. This seems like a load of bull to me.. I used a few examples of fen roads around here, where you can see for miles ahead- if its clear, what then? Still no…
What thinks you?
I didn’t like him, he was very elitist.. At least next week we have the nice one again :)
I move about quite a bit in my own lane in the nationals and if I can see it to be clear and in my benifit then I will also use the other side too. No probs there.
If there was a police car coming then you would see it and move over.
Ch00
If i were you i'd believe what you were told. Having just done the IAM course and now training to be an observer i have to agree with him. Why put yourself in danger which is what you're doing. Roads are not racetracks where using the whole width is there for using. Having said that i was taught to straighten a series of bends and use the whole road as long as you can see through them. Otherwise keep it safe by staying on your own side of the road. I bet he would be as fast if not faster than you on a given stretch of road keeping to the correct line and the safe side of the road.
Daryl.
xXBADGERXx
17-04-08, 07:51 PM
I passed my test the other week , there was a free DVD that I got from my training school that featured a guy from Honda , Chris Walker and a Despatch rider . The guy from Honda was doing the section on driving in country areas and he showed that using all of your side of the road was a perfectly safe thing to do , especially where there are junctions with the emphasis on moving over in case you need to take evasive or a car sneaks it`s nose out in front of you . Whilst cornering I tend to position myself so that I can see as far around the corner as I can then I move back to my normal position on the straights , the only time I stray over the white line is on overtake manouevers .
Its not about whos faster than me, I'm fully aware the bike cop will **** all over me.
If I can see around the corner, or across the bends, there's a clear road, or enough room for me to, why shouldn't I use the whole road? Seems like you contradicted yourself a bit daryl.
Blue_SV650S
17-04-08, 08:07 PM
Its not about whos faster than me, I'm fully aware the bike cop will **** all over me.
What makes you say that?? ... if you are riding like a c**t and he is riding safely, by its very virtue, he isn't going to be able to touch you is he if he wants to remain 'safe' is he! ;)
Anyway, it is obviously on a case by case basis, but going on the other side of the road might actually increase your visibility, which has to be a good thing right?!!? ;)
Bearing in mind he can't even use the brakes whilst going into a bend coz he things that is unsafe, an IAM guy is not going to turn round and say its a good idea to ride on the other side of the road is he ;)
At the end of the day the IAM way is an established method and should see you with your best chances of arriving at point B in one piece. But it is not the only way to ride and just coz you are not following IAM to the letter doesn't mean you are being reckless or likely to get splatted!!! ;)
metalmonkey
17-04-08, 08:08 PM
Buy a copy of road craft and read it, everything that the police do is based around and IAM is based on that as well. One of the most important things is attitude, after that road postion and advanced vison.
fizzwheel
17-04-08, 08:13 PM
Having said that i was taught to straighten a series of bends and use the whole road as long as you can see through them.
Thats pretty much what I do. But I'll only do it on a road I know really well.
I also tend to make the most of the room I have in the lane I'm in as well. i.e take a position on the road that gives me the best view through the corner.
But you have to make sure that when you do this, you dont compromise your own safety, I suspect this is what the bike cop was trying to get across to you, its just he didnt IMHO explain himself very well.
I have roadcraft, I've not read it properly yet but read sections of it.
Using the whole of the road (both sides incase there is confusion) makes sense to me, if it is safe to do so. There is a road going into my village, its roughly 80 degrees left. When you come up to it, you can see 300 metres to the start of the houses and slightly further beyond that. When I see there's nothing coming, I go over to the right of the road and enter the corner that way. I'm making the corner less tight, easier to go through, it seems the right thing to do to me. I used this example and he just said no. "What if there's a police car flying towards that corner?" Flipping police car!! Load of crap, wouldn't affect me- if it was in view, I would be on my side of the road, if it wasn't, it'd be safe to use the other side, surely? Grrr.
Thats pretty much what I do. But I'll only do it on a road I know really well.
I also tend to make the most of the room I have in the lane I'm in as well. i.e take a position on the road that gives me the best view through the corner.
But you have to make sure that when you do this, you dont compromise your own safety, I suspect this is what the bike cop was trying to get across to you, its just he didnt IMHO explain himself very well.
Fair point. He obviously knew what he was on about, but didn't really do much more than read out the presentation to us, a bit rusty on bikesafe apparently.
My argument is I'm doing this to improve my safety.
fizzwheel
17-04-08, 08:23 PM
My argument is I'm doing this to improve my safety.
Can you go back and speak to a different copper, say that you were left feeling confused and just go over this particular issue ?
I personally feel that learning to read the road and then using your road positioning is a good skill to learn, anything that improves your view of what is coming at you is a benefit. Its when you take straight lining bends or crossing the white line to the extreme that I think you end up putting yourself at risk. But his point about what if a vechicle coming the other way is doing the same thing ( whether its a police car or not is irrelevant, it could just as well be another bike ) I think is a good thing to bear in mind IMHO.
Mind you this is just how I ride. I'm not riding god, and this kind of stuff is always learnt better by doing and watching that talking on a t'internet forum.
21QUEST
17-04-08, 08:31 PM
To be blunt :p, the guy sounds a c*ck ;) .
...
.......
Bearing in mind he can't even use the brakes whilst going into a bend coz he things that is unsafe, an IAM guy is not going to turn round and say its a good idea to ride on the other side of the road is he ;)
....
Haha...:lol:
But of course, he'd never get himself into a stuation where he'd need to do that :rolleyes:
Ben
Can you go back and speak to a different copper, say that you were left feeling confused and just go over this particular issue ?
I personally feel that learning to read the road and then using your road positioning is a good skill to learn, anything that improves your view of what is coming at you is a benefit. Its when you take straight lining bends or crossing the white line to the extreme that I think you end up putting yourself at risk. But his point about what if a vechicle coming the other way is doing the same thing ( whether its a police car or not is irrelevant, it could just as well be another bike ) I think is a good thing to bear in mind IMHO.
Mind you this is just how I ride. I'm not riding god, and this kind of stuff is always learnt better by doing and watching that talking on a t'internet forum.
That's a good idea, I'll talk to the other guy next week, he was a nice guy and explained things very well the first week.
I'm not trying to be a racer or the fastest person round a corner, but if I can make a corner easier when its (in my opinion) perfectly safe to do so, it seems sensible to do that. A by-product of easier is faster, but going round the corner faster is not my main concern. I've had my license since October and since my little tumble, I've done 50 miles a day.. I'm really trying to put the miles and effort into becoming a better, safer rider, and as I'm still early on into things, I want to start off right. Hence I'm the youngest person on my bikesafe course, the next youngest is my Dad........
He made a fair point about always having something in reserve, which I admit I don't always have to a certain extent- sometimes my restricted sv will struggle to top 85 in a headwind, but I'll happily take a nice bend at that speed, if I know I can make it safely.
When I'm crossing over to the other side, I'm just trying to get the right line for that corner, to make things smoother, safer, nicer... I wouldn't do this if I thought I was putting myself at risk.
To be blunt :p, the guy sounds a c*ck ;) .
Haha...:lol:
Ben
Indeed :toss: Which is a shame really.
When I'm crossing over to the other side, I'm just trying to get the right line for that corner, to make things smoother, safer, nicer... I wouldn't do this if I thought I was putting myself at risk.
You only cross the white line (for what ever reason) when you can see it to be clear this also means leaving enough time and space to get back to your side should a quick vehicle come the other way.
I was always told to picture a 40 tonne HGV coming the other way, while they not be the fastest thing about they will take up most of of there lane and have few options to avoid a serious PI.
Ch00
Blue_SV650S
17-04-08, 09:13 PM
But of course, he'd never get himself into a stuation where he'd need to do that :rolleyes:
Ben
NEED? :scratch:
I've been stuck behind a couple of people riding the IAM way now (presumably people who have passed IAM and riding to the book .. why do they always ride Pan's?!?! :D), they just get in the way.
Bearing in mind they are trained to have total 'awareness' they should see that I am behind trying to get past and move over surely - and let the idiot (me) through??? Oh, no, they are so ignorant/arrogant they just keep riding right in the middle of where it'd be good to overtake and swerving* all over your side of the road picking lines, making you either sit behind them getting frustrated as they are always on the brakes too early (then crawling round the bends at a 'safe' speed) or making a bit of a dodgy move to get past!! :rolleyes: They are endangering us both by getting me frustrated to the point I might do something silly!!
That p1sses me off!! :smt019
What makes them so important they can't just pull to one side and let you safely past?!?! It'd be all over on 2 seconds and everyone is happy!! [-(
If they want to snigger at you in the ditch 3 turns down the lane after letting you past, then fair enough, but get out of the way you arrogant fu ... <connection terminated> :D
*probably a better word is swaying?!!?
I don't see the problem as long as I know it's safe and as long as there aren't double white lines. I will happily go onto the right side of the road to get a better view into a left, knowing that I can hop back again pretty quick.
petevtwin650
17-04-08, 09:43 PM
I use the other side of the road technique. A lot.
The biggest problem is vehicles pulling onto that side of the road from a hidden junction or driveway. They will look right but obviously not left as they don't expect a bike to be coming from that direction on "their side" of the road. A bike cop was killed using this technique a while ago and for some time after new bike cops were not taught to go over the centre of the road. However I understand this has now been reassessed.
DanAbnormal
17-04-08, 10:03 PM
Er, but they teach you to use road positioning in IAM, ROSPA et al.
I think he was playing CYA (cover your assetts).
punyXpress
17-04-08, 10:06 PM
You only cross the white line (for what ever reason) when you can see it to be clear this also means leaving enough time and space to get back to your side should a quick vehicle come the other way.
I was always told to picture a 40 tonne HGV coming the other way, while they not be the fastest thing about they will take up most of of there lane and have few options to avoid a serious PI.
Ch00
Never mind the 40 tonne truck or the Police car - I try to consider the scenario if I was coming the other way. I don't ride that fast but sometimes meeting myself would be a worry
yorkie_chris
17-04-08, 10:13 PM
Which is why IMO it's in a lot of the technique literature to be able to get back onto your own side of the road in half the distance you can see or less.
Bearing in mind that if you're doing this when it needs to be, then you'll be able to see much further anyway.
My problem is I seem to clip a lot of cats eyes moving back across. Gives it quite a twitch.
As for the police bikes knowing exactly when a police car is coming round the corner? I doubt it. This guy sounds like a condescending w4nker to me!.
Interesting subject.
I use the other side of the road technique. A lot.
First time I rode with Pete leading, I loved the amount of visibility it provides. So I adopted it.
Now, I will happily use the whole of my side of the road. But I also use the other side of the road under certain conditions (mainly when benefit > risk).
To me, that means NOT going to the wrong side on roads I know well (I know the bend, so should be able to ride with a safety margin should anyone pull out, right?). There is a caveat to this, and that's if I'm following another biker. In that case, I want at least the same vision around the bend as they have (if possible), so I'll happily sit wider.
On roads I don't know, I want to get the best advantage I can, which includes visibility.
Some have criticised me in the past for riding on the wrong side of the road, if they remember it or nor, as I was doing it in the middle of a group of bikes. They raised similar concerns as to "what if something comes around the corner & you can't move out of the way quick enough - for example if one of the group blocks you out there." Well in that case, I'd be dead most likely. Thanks for blocking me out!! But I'd try not to stay out there if I saw I was being blocked.
I say to keep using the wrong side of the road, where legal, and where you perceive that the benefits outweigh the risks.
(NB. I have once been wide around a corner, almost on the white line, and what I have to assume was a weekend warrior came the other way taking the inside line - not a good situation, but I banked over more to come more in).
There's no simple answer.
If you're capable of doing this, and your powers of observation are such that you're safe doing so... then there's no reason why you shouldn't - it allows you to progress, and maintain visibility of the road ahead.
Obviously, taking the **** should be avoided... on blind bends, solid white lines etc.
The whole road is there to be used, and so long as you're not obstructing, or endangering anyone else in the way that you use it, and not taking the ****... then why not.
Red Herring
18-04-08, 09:00 AM
Generally a safe rule to follow when considering the use of the offside (the right hand side of the road) is that you can use it if you can see that it is safe to do so, and by doing so you maintain the view that you have. If you have to go out onto the offside to get a view then you need to be asking yourself is it worth it.
Using the offside when you can see it is clear is a good way of maintaining progress, riding more smoothly, and generally being a "better" rider, but it comes with the added responsibility that you may have to explain yourself later. If something happens and you do end having to explain yourself then it may well have been the other persons fault, but it's your fault for allowing yourself to have become involved.
Take for example the incident quoted above when the police rider got taken out. Yes it is principally the fault of the driver/rider that pulled out of the side road, the law requires them to give way to traffic on the main road, regardless of which direction/side of the road it is traveling on, but the police rider was also at fault for being on the offside on the approach to an offside junction (area of potential danger) and you can guarantee that had he done so on any training course he would have been taken apart over it.
Lots of people on the thread have said they use the offside when they consider it is safe to do so, and they may well be right. But "when it is safe" is subjective and very much depends on the individuals skill/knowledge and attitude. The problem that the police officer has (and i agree that he didn't exactly make a very good job of explaining himself) along with the likes of the IAM is that if they are seen to condone or encourage a particular course of action then riders will do it without understanding what they are doing, and when called upon to explain themselves will say "well the police/IAM said it was alright" which is something neither organisation can afford.
To wrap up a long post (sorry) in all the years I have been involved in motorcycling I have generally found that you do not need to teach/encourage use of the offside. As a riders skills and abilities develop the use of the offside is a natural progression and is generally safe. The dangers come when another rider sees them doing it and copies them without understanding why.
The dangers come when another rider sees them doing it and copies them without understanding why.
I copied someone else doing it. When I get pulled over for doing it, the blame shall lay solely at the feet of Petevtwin650. ;)
I had this very discussion with my IAM observer and others
Obviously they follow the IAM Guidlines, which is to stay on your side of the road.
Unofficially some do so, but not to the extremes.
The senario went as such.
Case 1 - Bike
You would only need to offside on left hand bends and are doing so to the extreme, your positioning for view puts your machine near to the right hand kerb. This feels ok you have the view and you can get back to the left hand
lane in half the distance you can see to be clear. I'm sure to see a car before they see me.
Case 2 - Car
Now if you look at it from the percective of an approcahing car. Your an inexperianced driver but you are driving fast and edging very close to the central white line on the right hand bend. You see a motorcyclist coming at you from the left hand kerb. Your natural reaction is to swerve to the right. Hoping that the bike will pass you on the left.
Case 1 - Bike
You see a car. You immediatley tighten your turn to return to the the left hand side of the road. Then you see the approaching car cross the white line - cutting the corner by a long way, you switch your line to pass him on his left.
Case 2 - Car
You see the bike attempt to return to the correct side of the road, you do the same.
Case 1 and 2
Bike meets car head on
I cant believe the plods know exactly where their colleages are even with the help of the radios. The blues and twos will help them.
You would only need to offside on left hand bends and are doing so to the extreme, your positioning for view puts your machine near to the right hand kerb.
:shock: Extreme indeed. :shock:
About the furthest I get over in to the wrong side of the road is about half way from the white line to the kerb.
when i was an IAM observer we advised people not to cross the white line unnecessary (advise to be able to stop in the distance you can see on your side of the road). I know a lot of people are against IAM and Im not saying its the only way of riding but I like it and its kept me safe and feeling confident in the past 7 years. AS for using the whole road there were and obviously still are a lot of arguments on the pros and cons of this. I find I can usually see enough from my side of the road. I would hate to be on the other side of a bendy road in case something came flying round the corner and if its a straight road what is the point. but you have passed your test, do what you want.
As a couple of people involved with IAM etc have posted on this thread, a situation for contemplation (and one that regularly happens around my area) based on countryside (therefore bendy) A roads:
Coming up to a sweeping left hand bend, visibility is good, and the bend is approx 600m away. There's a truck in front of you, and you judge that overtaking the truck before the bend will be impossible/unsafe.
Local knowledge means that you know there's a dashed white line around the sweeping left. This is followed by a short straight, before solid white lines for approx two miles (with a few intermittent gaps of dashed lines), as the road climbs up the side of a valley.
On this left sweeping bend, there's trees on the inside of the bend.
Where would you position the bike?
Personally, I would (and do) sit wide - meaning wrong side of the road right up until i turn in for the bend. Then move back to my side of the road, but still almost on the white dashed line. Hang back from the truck a little, to allow a view down the left of the truck, then if nothing is oncoming, open the throttle to overtake before the solid white lines.
Strictly speaking, my method goes against what has been commented as the 'IAM way' (as I'm on the wrong side of the road), but that doesn't mean my riding will change. :)
New Leaf
18-04-08, 10:25 AM
The thing to bear in mind here is that BikeSafe is a very basic introduction to more advanced road riding techniques.
Its quite clear that on occasions the position on the road where u get the best view is on the other side of the road. However, there are plenty more occasions when that is a very dangerous place to be.
Given that they don't have long on bikesafe and there are lots of new riders there, it would be quite irresponsible for them to recommend using the 'wrong' side of the road. The whole point of bike safe is to reduce accidents!
For most beginers using the whole of your lane is a good place to start and bikesafe will teach u that. If you want to teach people when they can use the whole width of the road, you need more time with them to make sure they understand when they can do it safely and when its likely to kill them.
On my bikesafe course they said they were not allowed to say use the other side of the road, but that if we did am iam course then we would be taught how and when to do it safely. He was right too!
Essex of Essex
18-04-08, 11:32 AM
If I have moved to the offside to pass an obstruction or overtake then I will stay out to maintain a view if appropriate, but not move out to get the view. Police riders will frequently be traveling a lot quicker than we are supposed to do and then moving out to obtain the view makes sense and is an appropriate course of action.
I followed a chap the other week, Pan riding IAM observer, police class 1 rider he uses all of the road( twigs brushing right elbow) very progressive; but always safe and quite happy to surrender the position for safety.
The offside is available so use when appropriate and safe to do so.
Red Herring
18-04-08, 01:17 PM
The official IAM view on offsiding, or "Advanced Positioning" as they like to call it is that it should not be encouraged, however accept it if it is used safely and appropriately.
To those riders (and police officers) who say they never "offside" I always ask how they ever manage to overtake anything. They usually then start to come out with explanations about how they only overtake where they can see it is safe, there is nothing coming the other way and where they can still return to their side of the road and stop in the distance they can see to be clear. I then tell them that that is exactly the same set of circumstances that I would use to justify offsiding. In fact, one of the sweetest overtakes you can have is where you time it just right so that you slot the overtake in at just the point where you would have been following your view across the offside anyhow, always allowing of course for the possibility that the vehicle being overtaken may try to "straightline" as well.
local knowledge can be a good thing but also a dangerous thing.
you should read the road not do things because you know that round the next few bends there isa straight bit.
familiarity breeds contempt - as my mum is fond of saying.
Heheh, I'm in the same boat as Baph, I've spent a bit of time watching Pete riding and I like his style (and he is a bloody good rider) That's when I started using the other side of the road..
As for bikesafe, the first week was brilliant, I wish we had the same guy for the second week, but we have him again next week so I'll talk to him. I'm the youngest rider by far, and the most inexperienced in terms of length of time riding, so I'm not sure its really catering for lots of complete newbies, not here anyway.
It's worrying I'm the only person the bright side of 50 there, I think it'd do most riders my age a lot of good.
Thanks for all your input :)
Dangerous Dave
18-04-08, 04:46 PM
On the road its all about being in a position of safety and with increased visibilty for both you and your view. The race lines are only of use if you can see the road ahead is clear!
All answered by now, but my 2p is - on Bikesafe you will never get taught to off side and 'just because the Police do it' sounds like you expect to be up to Police standard after a couple of evenings instruction :scratch:
As Mogs said above, you're trusting your life on someone you've never met before :shock: So nevermind the fact that you can get back to your side of the road in half the distance you can see to be clear, what if they see you on their side of the road & decide to use your side to 'help' you :oops:
Oh & Baph, I may not be understanding it right, but would you not be on the left to see up the inside of the truck in front on a left hander :scratch:
No, I don't expect to be up to police standard any time soon, I don't think I implied that either. I want to be the best I can, is all. I'm not actively trying to take the racing line either- I don't know anything about racing or track riding, nor do I aspire to really.
I'm worried people think I'm haring about like a lunatic, trying to get my knee down and go round the corner as fast as humanly possible :smt009 anyone who's seen my riding can certainly vouch for that!
OK I think it's unfortunate that you got one that could explain very well or justify himself (police on radios wtf :roll:) but he's right he should never advocate that it's OK on a bikesafe course to offside for view (course you offside to overtake) it's a much more advanced technique that maybe you are at that level, maybe not.
One thing you might like to think about is to always ride to maximise, in order:
Safety
Stability
View
petevtwin650
18-04-08, 11:00 PM
It is true that a few people who I have ridden with have adopted the style of riding that I use. They can see, after being a bit cautious, that it does work. However I am at great pains to explain that it is not without pitfalls if you do not keep up your all round observation. It does allow for greater planning in overtakes plus with improved vision you can be reacting earlier on to any hazard.
I take my riding seriously and I know Sean does too, hence his involvement at such a tender age with IAM. Hopefully he will be giving me, and others, pointers to help improve my riding in a short while:cool:
I'll use as much road as I want. I don't care what anyone else says. :roll:
mister c
19-04-08, 07:06 AM
Just a quick question.
Why do you need to use both sides of the road?
Been riding for nearly 30 years & the only time I've done it is when I've made a mess of a corner & I'm out of control.
It is true that a few people who I have ridden with have adopted the style of riding that I use.
Fast:p
Just a quick question.
Why do you need to use both sides of the road?
Been riding for nearly 30 years & the only time I've done it is when I've made a mess of a corner & I'm out of control.
It's not a case of needing too. If someone needs to then they have just made a mistake. It's a case of wanting to. Helping with visibility round a corner. Straight lining a corner or a number of other possibilities.
Oh & Baph, I may not be understanding it right, but would you not be on the left to see up the inside of the truck in front on a left hander :scratch:
I said that the bend in question is a sweeping left, with trees on the inside. If you sit left, you can't really see anything except squirrels eating their nuts. ;)
I've only found that sitting left to see down the inside of a long vehicle works when you're rather close behind said vehicle. So I'd rather sit back, and wide, offside if it helps view.
There are some diagrams in my copy of roadcraft that illustrate this quite well. Might see if I can scan some tonight.
dirtydog
19-04-08, 08:29 AM
Ahhh another thread with some IAM bashing in it :roll::roll:
Ok so some of you don't agree with the IAM techniques etc fine but there's no need to slate them everytime someone mentions them. The IAM has and does improve peoples riding.
As for the offsiding, yes i do it a fair bit actually, as said previously it's ok to do it to maintain a view but not to gain a view
Ok so some of you don't agree with the IAM techniques etc fine but there's no need to slate them everytime someone mentions them. The IAM has and does improve peoples riding.
Must of missed that in the thread...:confused:
EDIT: Just re-read it. The only negative words I have seen towards IAM are from Blue_ really, with one other person joining the debate early, with a heavy use of sarcastic similies.
As for Blue_'s comments, I interpret that as him assuming that person has passed IAM, and is riding "by the IAM book." Now, I haven't done IAM, but I agree with Blue_ to a certain extent. If I'm coming up fast behind an advanced rider, and they don't move over (and worse, actively move to increase their view, putting them in places I want to be to overtake), they're hindering my progress, and I wouldn't call that very advanced riding.
IMO, we should all be riding so that we do not cause any other road user to change direction or speed (this includes slowing down). That's certainly what I try to achieve.
If someone wants to pass me, I'll wave them past.
I still don't see any post in this thread as "IAM bashing."
dirtydog
19-04-08, 08:40 AM
Bearing in mind he can't even use the brakes whilst going into a bend coz he things that is unsafe, an IAM guy is not going to turn round and say its a good idea to ride on the other side of the road is he ;)
At the end of the day the IAM way is an established method and should see you with your best chances of arriving at point B in one piece. But it is not the only way to ride and just coz you are not following IAM to the letter doesn't mean you are being reckless or likely to get splatted!!! ;)
I've been stuck behind a couple of people riding the IAM way now (presumably people who have passed IAM and riding to the book .. why do they always ride Pan's?!?! :D), they just get in the way.
Bearing in mind they are trained to have total 'awareness' they should see that I am behind trying to get past and move over surely - and let the idiot (me) through??? Oh, no, they are so ignorant/arrogant they just keep riding right in the middle of where it'd be good to overtake and swerving* all over your side of the road picking lines, making you either sit behind them getting frustrated as they are always on the brakes too early (then crawling round the bends at a 'safe' speed) or making a bit of a dodgy move to get past!! :rolleyes: They are endangering us both by getting me frustrated to the point I might do something silly!!
That p1sses me off!! :smt019
What makes them so important they can't just pull to one side and let you safely past?!?! It'd be all over on 2 seconds and everyone is happy!! [-(
Must of missed that in the thread...:confused:
How about those bits?
I've passed my IAM test does that automatically make me an arrogant fu.....?
mister c
19-04-08, 08:45 AM
If you need to come up to a bend on the wrong side of the road to see what is coming, then that would suggest to me that you were going too fast for the road & conditions. So the easiest solution is to "read" the road, slow down where necessary, use vanishing points on bends and ride smoothly.
How about those bits?
I've passed my IAM test does that automatically make me an arrogant fu.....?
See my above post (edited rather than posting a new one).
Blue_ is generalising because of an assumption. That's not "IAM bashing," that's Blue_ being Blue_.
EDIT: Hell, your first quote by Blue_, I interpret as him saying IAM is good, and has it's purpose, although it might not be for everyone.
If you need to come up to a bend on the wrong side of the road to see what is coming, then that would suggest to me that you were going too fast for the road & conditions. So the easiest solution is to "read" the road, slow down where necessary, use vanishing points on bends and ride smoothly.
Left hand bend, there's a junction on the inside of it (you know this because you've seen the sign post). I don't NEED to sit wide, I CHOOSE to sit wide (and offside so long as there's no solid whites) so that I can see if anything wants to come out of the junction.
That doesn't mean I take the bend any faster, I just allow more room to safely stop, as I can see any vehicle earlier.
ThEGr33k
19-04-08, 08:51 AM
Well I rarely use both sides of roads, not much point. When im wanting to over take I may stop out to get better visability but if its a clear road (no one in front of me) then ill stay on my side.
People mention streight lining turns. Im at a loss as to why you would want to. IMO the best bit of biking is getting it leaning over.
As for advanced riding. Its basically common sense. Its not like someone will never have the knowledge of an IAM rider without doing an IAM course, experience will no doubt teach you as much if not a damn sight more.
So if you dont have much Exp then go for it no doubt you will learn something from the IAM fella's/ladies.
On a side note I hate Elitist *****s. :rolleyes:
dirtydog
19-04-08, 09:00 AM
If you need to come up to a bend on the wrong side of the road to see what is coming, then that would suggest to me that you were going too fast for the road & conditions. So the easiest solution is to "read" the road, slow down where necessary, use vanishing points on bends and ride smoothly.
I approach some bends on the wrong side of the road if i have a good view ahead doesn't mean i'm going to fast for the raod and conditions as Baph says it's not a need but he has chosen to do it.
See my above post (edited rather than posting a new one).
Blue_ is generalising because of an assumption. That's not "IAM bashing," that's Blue_ being Blue_.
EDIT: Hell, your first quote by Blue_, I interpret as him saying IAM is good, and has it's purpose, although it might not be for everyone.
Ok that's your opinion but the reason of "that's Blue_ being Blue_" doesn't really work for me. I took it as IAM riders are "ignorant/arrogant" again generalising becuase of an assumption doesn't work for me. Assumption is after all the mother of all f*** ups
dirtydog
19-04-08, 09:02 AM
Edit: yes i agree that some IAM/Rospa riders are arrogant muppets but that goes for anyone in any group of people, they would probably still be arrogant muppets if they weren't IAM riders wouldn't they?
Assumption is after all the mother of all f*** ups
I give you Blue_SV650S. ;)
I wouldn't take comments too personally, unless the comments were close to a nerve. :rolleyes:
. If I'm coming up fast behind an advanced rider, and they don't move over (and worse, actively move to increase their view, putting them in places I want to be to overtake), they're hindering my progress, and I wouldn't call that very advanced riding.
IMO, we should all be riding so that we do not cause any other road user to change direction or speed (this includes slowing down). That's certainly what I try to achieve.
If someone wants to pass me, I'll wave them past.
I dont agree with this.:( Why should someone who is riding at the speed limit move over or compromise their road position for someone who is speeding or riding like a ****. If you are riding slower than the person behind by all means wave them past but its their problem to pass you safely and not for you to move over to make it easier for them. oooh all the sensible stuff so early in the morning, I will need to go back to bed to recover :D
ThEGr33k
19-04-08, 09:19 AM
I dont agree with this.:( Why should someone who is riding at the speed limit move over or compromise their road position for someone who is speeding or riding like a ****. If you are riding slower than the person behind by all means wave them past but its their problem to pass you safely and not for you to move over to make it easier for them. oooh all the sensible stuff so early in the morning, I will need to go back to bed to recover :D
I dont agree Kat. Its quite easy to let them past. Granted on a tight turn I wouldnt but on a streight or slight bend with a decent view ahead then I cant see the problem in moving over at all. :-k
dirtydog
19-04-08, 09:21 AM
I give you Blue_SV650S. ;)
I wouldn't take comments too personally, unless the comments were close to a nerve. :rolleyes:
I don't take them personally bit it does irritate me when people use general assumptions )i.e how many times on here do people moan about being pulled etc as the copper has assumed that becuase they'r eon a bike they must be breaking the law that sort of thing? ) and then use that assumption to incinuate that i'm ignorant/arrogant etc.
As for the comments being close to a nerve, nah nowhere near. Just beacuse i have passed my IAM test doesn't mean i ride by their book, I had 10 years of riding experience before i did my IAM test
Why should someone who is riding at the speed limit move over or compromise their road position for someone who is speeding or riding like a ****. If you are riding slower than the person behind by all means wave them past but its their problem to pass you safely and not for you to move over to make it easier for them.
In my example, I was careful to include that the front rider was (perceived as) deliberately blocking the back rider from passing. That's a little different to moving over into the gutter to let someone past. :)
To clarify, I'm perfectly happy if someone wants to hold their own line. I'm competant enough & sensible enough to give them a wide enough birth so as to pass them safely.
But if they're hard on the throttle in straights (and for sake of argument have more power than me), then on the brakes for bends (esp bends where I see there's no point in slowing so much) then they are hindering my progress. Something that I don't do to others, so I won't be happy about others doing it to me.
I dont agree Kat. Its quite easy to let them past. Granted on a tight turn I wouldnt but on a streight or slight bend with a decent view ahead then I cant see the problem in moving over at all. :-k
+1. Although I can see that more noviced riders may not be happy about moving over, even those without L plates on.
dirtydog
19-04-08, 09:28 AM
I dont agree Kat. Its quite easy to let them past. Granted on a tight turn I wouldnt but on a streight or slight bend with a decent view ahead then I cant see the problem in moving over at all. :-k
I agree with KK on this, why should i have to move off of my line to let someone pass? I'm noit saying that i don't do it but why should i compromise my line for someone who is quicker than me? If they're that quick they shouldn't have any trouble getting past me should they?
In my example, I was careful to include that the front rider was (perceived as) deliberately blocking the back rider from passing.
you stated they were an advanced rider
That's a little different to moving over into the gutter to let someone past. :)
To clarify, I'm perfectly happy if someone wants to hold their own line. I'm competant enough & sensible enough to give them a wide enough birth so as to pass them safely.
But if they're hard on the throttle in straights (and for sake of argument have more power than me), then on the brakes for bends (esp bends where I see there's no point in slowing so much) then they are hindering my progress. Something that I don't do to others, so I won't be happy about others doing it to me.
if they are slow round the bends they are unlikely to be "advanced" riders and you should be able to pass them coming out the bend - all about forward observation. If they are "advanced" riders they should be able to hold their line round a bend if not they will be all over the place. If they are point and squirt ie fast in straight slow in bends, you being more experienced and a more advanced rider should have no problem passing them coming out or approaching corner as they will be braking hard for corner. If they ride like this it is probably why they are not letting you past ie they dont even know you are there.
+1. Although I can see that more noviced riders may not be happy about moving over, even those without L plates on.
those with L plates I have seen seem to ride in the gutter anyway, always want to stop them and say get over towards t he middle of the road, it will stop cars squeezing past you.
mister c
19-04-08, 09:51 AM
Well I rarely use both sides of roads, not much point. When im wanting to over take I may stop out to get better visability but if its a clear road (no one in front of me) then ill stay on my side.
People mention streight lining turns. Im at a loss as to why you would want to. IMO the best bit of biking is getting it leaning over.
As for advanced riding. Its basically common sense. Its not like someone will never have the knowledge of an IAM rider without doing an IAM course, experience will no doubt teach you as much if not a damn sight more.
So if you dont have much Exp then go for it no doubt you will learn something from the IAM fella's/ladies.
This I like :) I agree entirely good post
I dont agree Kat. Its quite easy to let them past. Granted on a tight turn I wouldnt but on a streight or slight bend with a decent view ahead then I cant see the problem in moving over at all. :-k
With a decent view, I would say it's up to the rider behind that wants to overtake, not the slower rider to move. If someone gave me grief for not moving when they wanted to overtake, then they would get the finger.
KK, as posted earlier by dirtydog (I believe), some "advanced" riders are a*holes (and I accept, that a proportion of every group of people are a*holes too). So I don't see why it's impossible for an "advanced" rider to actively block someone behind them, in order that the front rider have an optimal view of the road ahead.
I have been in situations before like the one mentionned above. The area I live in, you can wait a while before a decent overtaking opportunity arises (for example, on coming traffic blocks other opportunities). Of course, in those situations, I have no idea of knowing if the riders were "advanced" or not.
As for the subject of the front rider not being aware of my presence, I have a loud exhaust, and most look in their mirrors when I'm approaching. If someone hasn't looked in their mirrors by the time I'm ready to come past them, I hit the horn button to say "Hi, I'm here" - and those that have read details of my horn, know it gets me noticed.
So I don't see why it's impossible for an "advanced" rider to actively block someone behind them, in order that the front rider have an optimal view of the road ahead.
.[/quote]
I just dont understand why an "advanced" rider would need toblock someone. If they ride like this I wouldnt class them as "advanced" rider. If someone did this to me I would pull back or pull over for a while and let them disappear in to the distance.
I just dont understand why an "advanced" rider would need to block someone. If they ride like this I wouldnt class them as "advanced" rider.
You quote me before saying that I don't call it advanced riding. :)
I respect your view of pulling over & letting them get away more, but hasn't that just held you up even more, by you choosing to pull over?
Personally, in situations such as the above, I'd hang back from the rider, assuming they're a numpty, and make plans for the next few miles down the road so I could hopefully get them behind me.
The only ones that really wind me up these days are the weekend warriors that assume they can ride amazingly well, when in reality, they can't. When I was commuting long distance, I found them more funny than annoying though. Maybe that's down to the frequency of meeting them on the road.
ThEGr33k
19-04-08, 10:20 AM
I agree with KK on this, why should i have to move off of my line to let someone pass? I'm noit saying that i don't do it but why should i compromise my line for someone who is quicker than me? If they're that quick they shouldn't have any trouble getting past me should they?
Upto a point I can see what you are saying. Its not like you have to ride in the gutter to let them past just go to the middle of the road (leaving enough space on the right) give them a wave and bam they are gone. Do it just as you go onto a streight where it doesnt matter.
If someone was blocking me because they could and didnt want to let me past id not be happy especially if there is no reason for them not to. If they did wave me past id give them a thumbs up and everyone feels good that way. :D
With a decent view, I would say it's up to the rider behind that wants to overtake, not the slower rider to move. If someone gave me grief for not moving when they wanted to overtake, then they would get the finger.
Oh noes. i wouldnt ever have a go at someone. Its their right to use the road. I just think its curtious to let people pass.
maybe its all down to what we have individually experienced. I have never been held up but then I dont ride too fast, I may have held others up and its tough ****. I will not pull over to the middle of the road (full of crap and diesel) so they can pass just as I will not pull over so a car can pass. If someone is annoying me I pull over so they are far away whether they are in front or behind me. When you are annoyed you are more likely to take risks.
its not who is right and who is wrong, its who is right and who is left!
ThEGr33k
19-04-08, 10:35 AM
When you are annoyed you are more likely to take risks.
Thats why I let people pass. I know that getting held up is going to annoy people who are following. The last thing I want is them taking a risk trying to get past and taking me out. :(
well everyone is different :cool:- the world would be a boring place if everyone was the same. Im obviously a selfish rider and ride for myself :smt080- its worked ok for past 7 years so Im going to carry on. If im at the annual run Ill wear a sign on my back saying "yes its me KK and no I wont pull over for you" ;)
you have all been warned :smt016
ThEGr33k
19-04-08, 10:44 AM
Im not going :(. Sigh.
If im at the annual run Ill wear a sign on my back saying "yes its me KK and no I wont pull over for you" ;)
I'd love to be a traffic cop following you with that sign on. I'd have to!! :lol:
Im not going :(. Sigh.
no i probably wont make it either maybe next year :rolleyes:
Its a shame this turned into IAM/"advanced"/whatever bashing, this wasn't my intention when I started the thread :(
dont worry about it sean most threads can turn into iam bashing lol
People mention streight lining turns. Im at a loss as to why you would want to. IMO the best bit of biking is getting it leaning over.
If you can keep the bike up right for longer then the bike is in its most stable postion if you maintain a constent speed or under gently accleration.
Ch00
Dangerous Dave
19-04-08, 12:02 PM
dont worry about it sean most threads can turn into iam bashing lol
+ 1, a lot of people believe they don't need to learn anything.
+ 1, a lot of people believe they don't need to learn anything.
Do you know that for a fact, or is that another assumption? ;)
Personally, IAM isn't for me. But that's more down to time commitment involved rather than anything else.
I am however doing BikeSafe (in August :( ), and I adapt my riding to suit wherever possible, bringing in things that I see other people do (and I realise the advantage of doing so).
I still don't see any of this thread as bashing those slipper wearing pipe smoking pan riders.:rolleyes: (Sorry, couldn't resist!)
ThEGr33k
19-04-08, 12:06 PM
If you can keep the bike up right for longer then the bike is in its most stable postion if you maintain a constent speed or under gently accleration.
Ch00
Like I said... Where is the fun in that. If you take the fun out of Biking you might as well drive... My opinion of course. Ride how you will. :D
Red Herring
19-04-08, 09:08 PM
I still don't see any of this thread as bashing those slipper wearing pipe smoking pan riders.:rolleyes: (Sorry, couldn't resist!)
Let me see, quick glance around the garage.
ZXR7/9R, sitting there on slicks....
SV 650, on D209's.
XR650R Supermoto, big pile of tyres next to that.
600 Hornet
600 Diversion (winter hack)
Two TDR 250's
Nope, no sign of a Pan, and I've been involved with the IAM one way or the other for over 20 years.
Perhaps I'm the exception so quick check of the stats for my local group. Nope, Pans were the 9th most popular bike, behind Fireblades, GSXR's, VFR's and Hornets....
Of course, I wouldn't want to make the assumption that you couldn't learn anything, just a pity you have to wait until August.......:D
This started about a question ref off-siding (crossing the white line to get a better view/line), then turned into a bit of an IAM bashing I didn't read many of the posts towards the middle of the thread, so this may have been said already but the general guidance given out these days for us boring advanced types is......
Where safe to do so, you could cross the white line to maintain a view but do not cross it to gain a view.
So basically if you've got a series of bends you can see through then feel free to straight-line them or go where ever as long as you can see however do not go off-side to get a view as that's when you have a chance of being collected by the oncoming police car/lorry/sports bike rider/villain of choice.
Now I'm off to stoke the coal-fired slipper warmer on my Pan ;)
bit of a debate going on here.I just tend to ride to my mood.sometimes it all feels right and I'll ride fast and other times I'll just pootle and wave people past.
just ride safely
Despite what a lot of people have said... I *was* taught to offside on my Bikesafe. As a technique on contry roads to improve and give earlier visibility on bends, it's invaluable - but I think you need to know what you're doing.
I've seen people go wide, get an excellent view, and when they've seen an approaching car (further away than they otherwise would have done), they panicked... not realising the extra time and space they had to get over, and scrub off some speed.
Having said that, I've had a great time offsiding this weekend.:)
... stuff in response to cheeky comment...
Of course, I wouldn't want to make the assumption that you couldn't learn anything, just a pity you have to wait until August.......:D
Thanks for the bite. ;) Unfortunately due to work/life balance, I don't have the time to commit to something like IAM. However, I can easily plan for 2 days that are 6months away, so BikeSafe suits me. BikeSafe is also free. :)
FYI, it may be worth me noting that I'm in the market for a used ST1100 (P ideally). Not in a rush, just keeping an open eye for the right bike.
Despite what a lot of people have said... I *was* taught to offside on my Bikesafe. As a technique on contry roads to improve and give earlier visibility on bends, it's invaluable - but I think you need to know what you're doing.
+1.
I regularly "off-side" and generally speaking, it feels fluid and provides a really positive feeling of my riding.
If I'm hooning, I tend not to "off-side" and I concentrate far more, which inevitably leads to a more stressed ride. Even that has it's uses, which is exactly why sometimes I go out to purposefully hoon.
But if I want to arrive somewhere in good time, and feel relaxed, I generally set off earlier and ride a little slower. This is also the time when I "off-side" more, purely out of choice.
plowsie
21-04-08, 08:55 AM
You pay for the use of the road, use it!
HTH
Dave The Rave
21-04-08, 09:24 AM
I think saying no to people to move to off side is IMO a sensible thing. You would have muppets that just passed the test doing so. I use it now and then but most of the time I don't as I can make progress without doing so.
Its clear that the IAM still has a lot of PR work to do to loose the Pipe and Slippers reputation.
Im a member, Ive passed the test, I dont think its made me better than anybody else, but it has made me better and safer than I was previously was.
I think saying no to people to move to off side is IMO a sensible thing. You would have muppets that just passed the test doing so. I use it now and then but most of the time I don't as I can make progress without doing so.
I don't think anyone would expect the technique to be used by a novice rider. It takes someone with good road experience to recognise when it is appropriate to use.
It has only a few benefits:
1. Improves visibility on bends
2. Flattens bends allowing a faster line
3. Can, in some circumstances straighten what would otherwise be a bendy road - shortening the distance travelled.
As someone above said, you pay for the road: if it's there, and it is safe to do so, use all of it.
plowsie
21-04-08, 10:30 AM
and it is safe to do so, use all of it.
Well said Billy forgot that bit :lol: Comes as general knowledge but still :lol:
Flamin_Squirrel
21-04-08, 10:46 AM
I think saying no to people to move to off side is IMO a sensible thing. You would have muppets that just passed the test doing so.
Bah, why when considering anything with even the slightest element of risk these days, must we evaluate that risk based on the lowest common denominator :smt013
Bah, why when considering anything with even the slightest element of risk these days, must we evaluate that risk based on the lowest common denominator :smt013
Because of the socialist oppressive regime currently in place, that you are more than familiar with. The stupidest person is stupid, therefore we're all stupid.
Tim in Belgium
21-04-08, 11:21 AM
Because of the socialist oppressive regime currently in place, that you are more than familiar with. The stupidest person is stupid, therefore we're all stupid.
:stupid:
ThEGr33k
21-04-08, 11:28 AM
:stupid:
LMAO
:stupid:
You calling me stupid? ... Oh!
ThEGr33k
21-04-08, 11:42 AM
You calling me stupid? ... Oh!
Lets be honest. You got done from the rear with that comment. :p
I don't think anyone would expect the technique to be used by a novice rider. It takes someone with good road experience to recognise when it is appropriate to use.
It has only a few benefits:
1. Improves visibility on bends
2. Flattens bends allowing a faster line
3. Can, in some circumstances straighten what would otherwise be a bendy road - shortening the distance travelled.
As someone above said, you pay for the road: if it's there, and it is safe to do so, use all of it.
Nice post. Though I think that the "only" benefits are huge benefits ;)
I had a nice ride yesterday, twisty country roads, I was "off-siding" a lot and it made everything lovely and fluid, I was relaxed anyway but it helped make the road easier to ride :)
I have week 3 bikesafe tomorrow night, so I'll be asking about all this with the nice copper :rolleyes:
vBulletin® , Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.