View Full Version : Calling all mechanically minded
poted this on a Ninja forum as well but the org mechanics might be able to offer some sugestions to it as well. IL4 question as well
there is def something up with the power or power delivery on my bike (P7F).
sometimes it will shoot off after 9k and keep pulling like a train, other times it will do that in fits and starts across the revrange, but most of the time it just feels like its got a lot more to give and its muted or strangled.
today i was doing well above a ton wont say where but was in 3rd so it was in its power band above 12K . anyhow open the throttle and not a lot takes ages to accelerate anywhere aproaching quick. most the time i am lucky if i can get it past 130!! it just seems to not want to do anything fast. like maybe 1MPh a second in the power band in 3rd, same in 4th. up to about 110 its quick but not pull your arms off quick, unless its in one of its moods to do so. I know it can accelerate rapidly as when it feels like it sometimes there is a massive surge of power and bang there we go, change gear and its back to feeling like it has more to give. the rev needle takes ages to move at full throttle above about 12.5K in 3rd and above!!!
I thought it could be the valve in the exhaust sticking??? i am gettin an after market pipe fitted soon so ill see if that helps.
I thoght maybe a problem with the FI or ECU? somethiing not operating properly.
also concidered it could be a US import, although it was bought from george whites and they deal in UK bikes. As i know the US ECU is down on power and stangles the bike after about 13K
Guys i am getting frustrated with my pile of crap now as its ****ing anoying having brief teasers of power and then pack to feeling like its trying but being restrained.
Any ideas (sensible ones) as i am geting really ****ed off with it now.
I am desperate enough to pay for a dyno and if its under powered throw it through the door at GW and get it seen to under warranty. but first i though i would ask if anyone might know what could be causing it??
Hi neio,
Definitely worth getting a dyno done and finding a dyno to use as reference from a mag or someone here so you can compare. A mag is bound to have done one. will look for you.
Then take it to george whites, or you could call kawakaski, or even pop to kawasaki bristol. They're very helpful compared to gw. GW were a nightware when i bought my bike. was sat there an hour and a half cos the guy didn't know what he was doing and couldn't find any paperwork. Several complaints later to the managers and i managed to get my ownerbook and service log book etc, 2 months later. Won't be buying from them again. (That's my gw rant over)! :p
Hi neio,
Definitely worth getting a dyno done and finding a dyno to use as reference from a mag or someone here so you can compare. A mag is bound to have done one. will look for you.
Then take it to george whites, or you could call kawakaski, or even pop to kawasaki bristol. They're very helpful compared to gw. GW were a nightware when i bought my bike. was sat there an hour and a half cos the guy didn't know what he was doing and couldn't find any paperwork. Several complaints later to the managers and i managed to get my ownerbook and service log book etc, 2 months later. Won't be buying from them again. (That's my gw rant over)! :p
I have it booked in for a Dyno run tomorrow morning. I phoned them up and told them I want it to see if the engine is running properly. If that shows up bad air fuel mixture or any problems on the power curve at least I have some proof to go to GW with and back up my claim. I have the Fast bikes mag long term ZX6R as a bench mark and can realistically expect to see about 105-109BHP at the rear wheel as standard.
I will be lifting the tank tonight to check for any kinked blocked or lose tubes and breathers as well.
Its annoying when you know something is not right with your pride and joy but cant tell exactly what
markmoto
09-05-08, 09:48 AM
Sounds like a valve in the exhaust or inlet tract not opening properly does your bike have one of these? not to familiar with your bike.
Sounds like a valve in the exhaust or inlet tract not opening properly does your bike have one of these? not to familiar with your bike.
It def has an exhaust power valve yes its located under the seat and you can see it clearly. On priming the cables activate and move it. But that wont 100% prove its opening all the way once running will it. It also has two sensors of some kind on the collector box where all the down pipes meet; I assume they are Lamba sensors though?
As for on the inlet/air intake, I can only really take the tank off to check nothing is blocked or the Ram air isn’t blocked etc.
Like I say I am hoping the Dyno print out will highlight any issues with air/fuel and power?
Blue_SV650S
09-05-08, 10:09 AM
I bet you a shiny penny it is a spark plug breaking down/problem ;)
Had exactly the same symptom on my SV ... it was a dodgy plug ... sometimes it'd rev fine, other times it just felt like it wasn't pulling as hard as it should ... but not as if it was totally down onto just one ...
If you think about it if one (or more) cylinder is under performing, not only is that not giving much power out, but the others are then fighting it staking the power away from them ...
As you have identified, it could be something more s3xy like the power valve or valves themselves, but I'd go for the plugs first ;)
markmoto
09-05-08, 10:11 AM
It def has an exhaust power valve yes its located under the seat and you can see it clearly. On priming the cables activate and move it. But that wont 100% prove its opening all the way once running will it. It also has two sensors of some kind on the collector box where all the down pipes meet; I assume they are Lamba sensors though?
As for on the inlet/air intake, I can only really take the tank off to check nothing is blocked or the Ram air isn’t blocked etc.
Like I say I am hoping the Dyno print out will highlight any issues with air/fuel and power?
Yep they sound like the lambda sensors, definately sounds like something not opening right and causing a restriction occasinaly as this would give you the symptoms you describe... a dyno run will give you some answers im sure.
Yep they sound like the lambda sensors, definately sounds like something not opening right and causing a restriction occasinaly as this would give you the symptoms you describe... a dyno run will give you some answers im sure.
Maybe a blocked air intake etc? or a trapped breather tube of somesorts?
markmoto
09-05-08, 10:33 AM
Maybe a blocked air intake etc? or a trapped breather tube of somesorts?
Well yeah but i thought you just said you had checked the intake? trapped breather is unlikely. my moneys on the exhaust valve.
yorkie_chris
09-05-08, 10:35 AM
Lambda sensors have the potential to muck up the fuelling, as do the spark plugs as blue says, as does a sticky EXUP valve. (wouldn't expect carbon deposits on such a new machine though)
Basically it's a complicated EFI system, if it's showing no fault code then there's no real way to know whats fubarred, also your dyno run could show up perfectly healthy as you've got an intermittent problem ;-)
Have a check over for loose connectors and stuff, that's a distinct possibility too.
John Burt
09-05-08, 10:37 AM
Got an alarm/imobiliser fitted; not unknown for them to give misfire at high revs
I bet you a shiny penny it is a spark plug breaking down/problem ;)
Had exactly the same symptom on my SV ... it was a dodgy plug ... sometimes it'd rev fine, other times it just felt like it wasn't pulling as hard as it should ... but not as if it was totally down onto just one ...
If you think about it if one (or more) cylinder is under performing, not only is that not giving much power out, but the others are then fighting it staking the power away from them ...
As you have identified, it could be something more s3xy like the power valve or valves themselves, but I'd go for the plugs first ;)
Not thought about the spark plugs. I do tend to use a jet wash and stick it behind the faring to claen the engine block. I wonder if some water had ingressed into one of the plugs or i have lossened a cap on them with it??
but wouldent it have dreid out by now??
Lambda sensors have the potential to muck up the fuelling, as do the spark plugs as blue says, as does a sticky EXUP valve. (wouldn't expect carbon deposits on such a new machine though)
Basically it's a complicated EFI system, if it's showing no fault code then there's no real way to know whats fubarred, also your dyno run could show up perfectly healthy as you've got an intermittent problem ;-)
Have a check over for loose connectors and stuff, that's a distinct possibility too.
yeah this is what is frustrating is got sensors everywhere there is no fault code at all, i suppose the dyno will show up a lamba sensor error in the fuel/air mix read out. As if its running far to lean the power will be down a fair bit??
Got an alarm/imobiliser fitted; not unknown for them to give misfire at high revs
only a factory standard Kawasaki igniton imobiliser.
yorkie_chris
09-05-08, 11:08 AM
Aaaarrrghhh jet washing! Don't do it!
Have you tried taking the HT caps off and letting them dry out? Same with all the electrical system connectors.
Aaaarrrghhh jet washing! Don't do it!
Have you tried taking the HT caps off and letting them dry out? Same with all the electrical system connectors.
:smt086 yeah i know, but it makes it very shiney!!
not yet i will tonight as well, might explain why it splutters and stalls on first start up after a wash, and i do wash it a lot. :confused:
Blue_SV650S
09-05-08, 11:32 AM
Not thought about the spark plugs. I do tend to use a jet wash and stick it behind the faring to claen the engine block. I wonder if some water had ingressed into one of the plugs or i have lossened a cap on them with it??
but wouldent it have dreid out by now??
Mine was an actually faulty plug ... i.e. the plug itself must have started breaking down (nothing to do with water in the plug cap etc).
Do you have some old 'known' plugs you could pop in??
As I said, the symptoms are identical ... so it has to be worth a try before getting heavy/expensive ... a new set of plugs would do it no harm anyway will it ;)
Or you might have indeed just loosened a cap 8)
i dont have any good plugs but after checking all other easy posibles i will change them just to rule them out.
Mine was an actually faulty plug ... i.e. the plug itself must have started breaking down (nothing to do with water in the plug cap etc).
was it easy to see that the plug was knackered?
Blue_SV650S
09-05-08, 01:20 PM
was it easy to see that the plug was knackered?
No visible signs no. It wasn't completely shot remember, just intermittently breaking down (I assume internally). The bike would start, idle and run fine, just sometimes, it lacked 'spunk'!! ... changed the plug (had to be worth a try) and hey-presto 8)
well after checking basics like connectors are dry inside and all tubes ect are unblocked and where they should be, new plugs will be my next port of call.
Although it did have this problem before and after the first 600 mile service where they are changed arent they??
SoulKiss
09-05-08, 02:17 PM
well after checking basics like connectors are dry inside and all tubes ect are unblocked and where they should be, new plugs will be my next port of call.
Although it did have this problem before and after the first 600 mile service where they are changed arent they??
nope not changed until 8k I believe and then ecery 8k thereafter - doesnt have an interval based on time.
Thats for my Z750 anyways - woiuld have thought you would be about the same
nope not changed until 8k I believe and then ecery 8k thereafter - doesnt have an interval based on time.
Thats for my Z750 anyways - woiuld have thought you would be about the same
yes i think they are done on the 4K for mine , but as you point out thy havent been done, which adds credence to the fact they could be breaking down, rattled lose with the vibration, or water ingress from being cleaned all the time.
yorkie_chris
09-05-08, 02:23 PM
600 mile service is usually just oil and filter after the running in period
600 mile service is usually just oil and filter after the running in period
yes you are right.
At least i have a few simple things i can try and see it they are the culprate before taking it back to the dealer.
!. Check all air intakes/ tubes for correct connections and blockages.
2. Check electircal connectors around the bike to ensure they are dry.
3. check and pos change spark plugs, for correct seating, and any water ingress.
After all that and if the Dyno run still shows problems, its off to George whites with it.
Blue_SV650S
09-05-08, 02:50 PM
3. check and pos change spark plugs, for correct seating, and any water ingress.
Unfortunately there is no point 'checking' them ... if it is like mine was, you won't be able to 'see' anything is wrong!! ;)
Just replace them ... if it turns out they made no difference then you have treated it to some new plugs ... not a bad thing :)
At the end of the day what are a set of plugs? £25? ... at labour rates these day £60/hr? its gotta be worth a go before taking it to the dealer ;)
Plugs are little feckers and I have had many a problem I was convinced to be carburation just to turn out to be a duff plug/plug cap!! :oops:
I bet you a shiny penny it is a spark plug breaking down/problem ;)
Had exactly the same symptom on my SV ... it was a dodgy plug ... sometimes it'd rev fine, other times it just felt like it wasn't pulling as hard as it should ... but not as if it was totally down onto just one ...
+1
Mine was an actually faulty plug ... i.e. the plug itself must have started breaking down (nothing to do with water in the plug cap etc).
In my case, the plug was completely knackered due to water getting in the front plug.
was it easy to see that the plug was knackered?
Yup, very. The head of the plug was black, and it'd pretty much fallen in half. This happened approx 1500 miles after I changed the plugs.
I had exactly the same symptoms as you, sometimes the SV would pull, sometimes I couldn't even overtake! Didn't matter if it was wet or dry, as the damage had been done to the plug.
Blue_SV650S
09-05-08, 04:28 PM
+1.
Sounds like yours went totally down on one plug, I think mine was just having a half harted atempt at doing its job.
So with this new information, despite what I just said :oops:, a check seems like a good thing, but if it looks ok, don't assume it is as it might be more like mine than Baph's!! ;)
In shot it may be obvious when looking, but either way you gotta change them so have the new set to hand!! ;)
Sounds like yours went totally down on one plug, I think mine was just having a half harted atempt at doing its job.
Most of the time mine was running on 2 cylinders, but periodically would drop to one. When it was on once cylinder, if I didn't give a big fistfull of revs pulling out of junctions, it'd stall quite happily.
well checked all the conections and hoses i could tonight, but not the plugs. As they are f**king hard to get to you have to virtually remove all the inlet valves and injector rails to get to the top of the engine block
Just hit it with a small hammer...
... if that doesn't work, find a bigger hammer...
... if it still doesn't get any better then...
... well...
... don't listen to me in the first place. I know everyfink about nuffink me! :oops: ;)
yorkie_chris
10-05-08, 01:33 AM
As they are f**king hard to get to you have to virtually remove all the inlet valves and injector rails to get to the top of the engine block
See what you get buying one of these new fangled bikes...
... don't listen to me in the first place. I know everyfink about nuffink me! :oops: ;)
Nah you're just not using a big enough hammer
LEXINGTONONE
10-05-08, 07:34 AM
Just to add my two pennarth, it sounds like electrical problem to me, maybe ecu, but would also change plugs, I always put a new set of iridium plugs in my bikes, especially worth doing in your case to eliminate that possibility, get a set from sparkplugs.co.uk.
Right just got back from the Dyno center and there was a problem with the bike. the first round of runs and a confused looking man came out confirming my thoughts it was lacking in power.
A bit of looking around confirmed there was a loose spade connector on one of the injectors, no3 on the bottom rail to be presise. You could see where it had not been seated properly arcing and has caused a bit of burning on the conecters.
It was pushed back in properly and run again, this time sweet as a nut, giving :105.34 BHP at the rear wheel @14,100RPM :):):):
Needless to say i am happy at the bike producing exactly what it should and the problem known/sorted.
I was advised to go to GW and tell them what had happened and get them to replace the injector and connector under waranty!!
A big shout out to Tim Blackmore racing in Bristol, 110% recomendation from me, top bloke. He could have just said yes there is a problem get it sorted but he looked around and found out what was up, and fixed it .
Blue_SV650S
10-05-08, 10:57 AM
Right just got back from the Dyno center and there was a problem with the bike. the first round of runs and a confused looking man came out confirming my thoughts it was lacking in power.
A bit of looking around confirmed there was a loose spade connector on one of the injectors, no3 on the bottom rail to be presise. You could see where it had not been seated properly arcing and has caused a bit of burning on the conecters.
It was pushed back in properly and run again, this time sweet as a nut, giving :105.34 BHP at the rear wheel @14,100RPM :):):):
Needless to say i am happy at the bike producing exactly what it should and the problem known/sorted.
I was advised to go to GW and tell them what had happened and get them to replace the injector and connector under waranty!!
A big shout out to Tim Blackmore racing in Bristol, 110% recomendation from me, top bloke. He could have just said yes there is a problem get it sorted but he looked around and found out what was up, and fixed it .
Nice easy fix 8) sometimes it is the smallest thing isn't it!! :)
Did he charge you any extra for the diagnostics/fixing or just the dyno run?
Nice easy fix 8) sometimes it is the smallest thing isn't it!! :)
Did he charge you any extra for the diagnostics/fixing or just the dyno run?
nope just the 30 quid of the first set of dyno runs:) Top top bloke, knows his sh*t, friendly and helpful.
It places like that i would rather give my money to than GW for servicing.
Blue_SV650S
10-05-08, 11:06 AM
nope just the 30 quid of the first set of dyno runs:) Top top bloke, knows his sh*t, friendly and helpful.
It places like that i would rather give my money to than GW for servicing.
Indeed, nice to see somewhere not simply out to make a quick/easy buck :cheers:
yorkie_chris
10-05-08, 11:10 AM
Nice one.
Bit more entertaining to ride now is it? :-P
Nice one.
Bit more entertaining to ride now is it? :-P
just a bit!! ;)
Its like having a new bike again :cool:. Just got to take it to GW to replace the slightly burnt connectors. but that can be done after NW3.5. At least i know if it comes back again the likley culperit. But saying that he Seated the spade connector back in fully, herd it click in place:D .
Must have not been seated properly from the factory?
Blue_SV650S
10-05-08, 11:38 AM
Must have not been seated properly from the factory?
Or you been hoiking too many 'mingers' and it popped off on a heavy landing?!!? ;)
Or you been hoiking too many 'mingers' and it popped off on a heavy landing?!!? ;)
ha ha , i like to stick to the first theory ;)
petevtwin650
10-05-08, 04:36 PM
just a bit!! ;)
Its like having a new bike again :cool:. Just got to take it to GW to replace the slightly burnt connectors. but that can be done after NW3.5. At least i know if it comes back again the likley culperit. But saying that he Seated the spade connector back in fully, herd it click in place:D .
Must have not been seated properly from the factory?
Glad you got it sorted in time for the nice warm weather Neio and NW3.5
I'd be surprised if it was a factory mistake. I wonder if GW's would have tinkered with the plugs and dislodged it then. As you say they have a positive click so are totally unlikely to dislodge in normal or extreme use IMO.
Glad you got it sorted in time for the nice warm weather Neio and NW3.5
I'd be surprised if it was a factory mistake. I wonder if GW's would have tinkered with the plugs and dislodged it then. As you say they have a positive click so are totally unlikely to dislodge in normal or extreme use IMO.
you are right spade connectors into housings make a distinctive click. Unless the had the tank up on the first service i doubt it as it only involves oil and filter. Both reachable by removing the LHS fairing.
I had noticed it since new so i still reckon it was a factory fault, the spade not being all the way in the housing.
I am just glad i now have lots and lots of progressive power all through the rev range.
a different bike altogether.
and yes its intime for NW3.5
markmoto
10-05-08, 09:44 PM
fair play to the guy for spotting that one a dealers would probably be searching for that one forever, just goes to show you on modern bikes it could be absolutely anything. Bet you breathed a sign of relief. ;-)
. Bet you breathed a sign of relief. ;-)
Did i ever. Ill be paranoid about it popping out again now LOL. Shouldent as the bloke re seated it for me properly.
That's what I call a result bud. Nice one... Might just take me gixer there for a dyno run... just curious I guess.
As you say though, it looks like an assembly fault.
That's what I call a result bud. Nice one... Might just take me gixer there for a dyno run... just curious I guess.
As you say though, it looks like an assembly fault.
Well i would recomend him, probably the best 30 quid i spent.
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