Revolutions Rideout - 31st August

[Skip]

Right, its been way too long since we had a rideout! So I am going to take the bull by the scruff of its horns and arrange something that resembles a ride out.

Being the lazy tike that I am I propose to use the same route that I used on last Augusts rideout - its been a year and it was raining last time so it with a bit of luck it should be a better experience this time - I might even try and get the route sorted properly before hand so we dont get lost! :smt116

The route takes in A and B roads around the North Cambridgeshire/Peterborough area - its mainly B-roads but from previous rideout experience they are the ones everyone likes to ride :)

Start and finish points to be the Red Lodge Cafe (http://www.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&client=firefox-a&q=cafe&near=Red+Lodge,+Bury+Saint+Edmunds,+England+IP28+8 LB&radius=0.0&cd=1&cid=52302444,483819,3658796526000071683&li=lmd&ie=UTF8&z=14&iwloc=A&om=1) just off the A11/A14. Meet at 9:30-10:00 for a 10:30 departure.

I will get there at about 9:15-9:30 and probably grab a cuppa/bacon roll.

Click here for the route.... (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&msa=0&ll=52.498668,0.196381&spn=0.56599,1.2854&z=10&om=1&msid=102456361289571369590.0004357b190720a941fd8)

Date: 31st August - I am putting my foot down! :p

Skip :joker:

[Dicky Ticker]

Rather than the RED LODGE,what about the WORLD FAMOUS COMFORT CAFE with the fuel next door so that everybody can start with a full tank plus it is slightly easier to find
being near the A11,M11 and the A505.This gives better access for anybody commuting to the start from North,South,East or West.

[Skip]

Nice idea - but we have started from Red Lodge a few times now and it works :)

[K]

Stickied it for ya.

Attendance from me - hmmmm - it'll depend on bike ownership. ;)

[Skip]

Thanks K - best of luck selling your bike - don't try too hard until September though ;)

[Mike2165]

Skip I'm up for a rideout, only time I know I can't do is the Bank Holiday weekend. Red Lodge is ok for me.

[Lissa]

10th...........Out with Ducati guys.

17th...........Glencoe Massacre.

24th...........White Water Rafting (although this is the Bank Holiday weekend which may suit you best for the run)

31st............Free:D

[Skip]

OK thanks everyone - lets see who else replies :)

[Seggons]

I'm well up for it. On regards to the date, I'd prefer if it was after the Glencoe Massacre date so I can find out where I am in terms of money. If it happens to be before then I'll find a way as I love these local events. :D

[Mike2165]

There's also this:


The London Unity Ride 2008
An Invitation to Ride in the Capital

This years event will start from the Excel conference centre on
Sunday 17th August

Unity Ride is a Charity event that celebrates all types of motorbiking this year in support of ‘Children in Need’ and SERV (The NHS blood supply charity manned by volunteer motorcyclists).
Children in Need (http://www.bbc.co.uk/pudsey/) click to activate
SERV (The Blood Runners) (http://www.serv.org.uk/Home/Default.aspx) click to activate
Assisted by the London Metropolitian Police BikeSafe team & the Unity Support Riders, together we will visit all the major sights of London.

If you’re a special interest group, owners club or charity organization then join us and promote your cause. Or maybe you just fancy a 'pootle though the Smoke' with a few thousand other bikers then sign up now.

If you want to organise your own ride-in then let us know and we will do what we can to help.
The Unity Riders will return to the Memorial Gardens, Victoria Embankment, to pay our respects for those that were killed and affected by the London Bombings.

Click Here to Donate! (http://unity2.unityride.co.uk/dontation.html)
Click Here to Register! (http://unity2.unityride.co.uk/pay_registration.html)
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Er that's another day I can't do

[New Leaf]

I'll come as long as i can keep my helmet on the whole time. :batman:

[Skip]

Nice idea Mike but I prefer to ride rather than gather...

[manicmonkey]

Someone needs to show me some decent roads round here, count me in :)

[Messie]

I'd love to join in this but I've got a bit of idea. It could be wonderful but it could all go horribly wrong.


EAR could be having a rideout on Bank Holiday week end AND
TVSF could also be having a rideout Bank Holiday week end AND
I live right in the middle of both groups (sort of) SO
How about meet somewhere between the two (Silver Ball comes to mind on the A10 at Reed) middle of the day. Ride around some of the lovely roads ( A507 close by, or Finchingfield or Stradishall etc) THEN
End the day at mine for a BBQLet me know your thoughts. I'll post it in TVSF as well. Might even invite some Soho Massive as well if they're really nice to me ;)

[Sean_C]

nice idea Messie. I hope I'm back on the road by the time whatever is organised happens, I'll certainly try :-)

[BigBaddad]

eerrmmm...maybe. So busy at the minute with the house build, but late August might work for me, plasterers are in, wife did say that the painters might be in that weekend too???

[Foxy]

Rather than the RED LODGE,what about the WORLD FAMOUS COMFORT CAFE with the fuel next door so that everybody can start with a full tank plus it is slightly easier to find
being near the A11,M11 and the A505.This gives better access for anybody commuting to the start from North,South,East or West.

+1 The Comfort Cafe is a great place and I will def be there :D

[davy]

I wil try my upmost to make it as I havent made a ride out this year so far.
Can't make bank hol weekend tho as its bsb at cadwell

[Skip]

Right I have now been booked to go on holiday by SWMBO so wont be about on the 17th or the 23rd - so looks like this is going well! :rolleyes:

31st anyone?

[Lissa]

31st works for us:D

[andi606616]

31st is ideal for me also. count me in if you go ahead with this date.

[Skip]

Already decided and first post edited :)

Might go for a bimble around the route if I get a spare afternoon - just to refresh the memory...

[Sean_C]

I'll try my very hardest to make it ;)

[Mike2165]

31st seems ok here too

[Skip]

New tyres being fitted on Saturday (couldnt resist another set of Road Attacks) and if I get a chance will be dry running the route on Sunday :)

Any more for any more?

[Sean_C]

Its looking good for me, I've got parts on order, the only thing left to order is front brake discs. I think I'll be able to make this one :)
My tyres got fitted yesterday, headlight, brackets and indicators should be arriving this week.. I'm getting there :)

[Skip]

Good to hear Sean :D

[Lissa]

Our mate Nick may be coming along....if he can get up!:D

Dunno if he'll be on the SV or the TL though:p

[2mths]

I think I can do the 31st. So put me down as a maybe. It was bloody good last year so I'd be a fool to miss it.

[Mike2165]

Now you remember how the 31st was ok, well I ain't gonna make it I'm afraid. I'll be riding back from Spain on me bike :) Sorry Skip, catch you all on the next one.

[Skip]

Boooo - shame on you Mike! :lol:

Hope you have a good trip! Looking like we might be a little thin on the ground on this one - oh well, its a great route so who cares! :D

[Foxy]

Well it will be a disappointing none attendance from Foxy as my bike will not be repaired by then :(

[Mr Speirs]

I think ill be popping along to this. Didn't realise this was on til Lissa mentioned it. Which is suprising cos im on here all the time...i must be blind :)
Looking forward to it. Cheers

[Skip]

Looks like there might be a few of us then :) Only slight issue is I wont have time to reccy the route before hand so bear with me (again!) :oops:

:D

[Sean_C]

Can't be worse than mine Skip :rolleyes:

Not sure if I'll make it at this point- I'm waiting for headlight brackets, which should arrive "any day now" :smt021 Everything else is either sorted, or won't be a problem getting done in time :)

I'll let you all know anyway.

[Sosha]

Possibly....

Will be in the hood but don't wait for me

[Skip]

Date still as confirmed in case any of you are wondering...

[davy]

Hope you have organised some sunshine Skip.....

[Skip]

Textiles will be in attendance :p

[Seggons]

The weather forecast is actually looking quite good considering.

[Mr Speirs]

Considering the Times are proclaiming on their front page:
10 days of rainfall in 24hours.
I just know that when we finish the ride out the heavens will open for my 1 and a half hour ride home. Bring it on!! Haha

[Lissa]

Had new tyres fitted at half nine this morning.................just got home:D

Not done many miles, just been hanging out and catching up with old mates:cool:

[Foxy]

Had new tyres fitted at half nine this morning.................just got home:D

Not done many miles, just been hanging out and catching up with old mates:cool:

Am jealous, wanted to come out with you guys, my bike still nowhere near being fixed, :rolleyes: :)

[petevtwin650]

Am jealous, wanted to come out with you guys, my bike still nowhere near being fixed, :rolleyes: :)

Sneak round and pinch Neio's. It could do with being ridden properly for once!:mrgreen:

Yes I'm up at this ungodly hour eager with anticipation. Whatever happened to Sunday lie-ins?:smt081:smt102

[Seggons]

Where did all this fog come from!? Certainly going to make my twisty ride in interesting. :D

[Skip]

Beeeeautiful sunshine here in Norwich :D

[Mr Speirs]

fog just gave me a brown trouser moment. Roundabout on a dual carriageway appeared out of the fog!!! Just managed to stop in time but still ran onto the roundabout. Good job nothing else was on the road. Well cos of the fog I'm 1/2 and hour early I had to abandon the twisty route as I could see bugger all. Pete n lissa should be here soon. Can't wait to get to your sunshine skip.

[Mike2165]

Hope you all had/having a good rideout, hope I'll get to the next one

[Seggons]

Blimey that was a long ride home....










....From Grafham Waters.

Allot more people turned up then I personally anticipated and it made the ride even more enjoyable. The new guys were great, the old guys were great, everyone was great.

The roads we went on were great! I had a ball of a time towards the front of the pack.

I have to say that even though we didn't stick to the planned route it did make it more interesting. even when we did go up and down the same bit of road 3 times. ;) You did a great job skip!

Oh and if anyone says anything about me going into a corner a little bit too hot and maybe using a bit of grass, and then needing several people to push me out then there lieing. :smt019 ;)

Shame BigbadDad had to run off so early because of his slight leak in the rear tyre. I hope it's fixable. :D

Roll on the next one.

[Mr Speirs]

Im back home now. Had a blast today. throughly enjoyed every corner.
Oh and when seggons says a 'little' too hot he means...lots. :)
Only joking seggons I think you came out very well considering what could have happened.

All in all a top day. Skip did a fantastic job...of getting us lost. But it was just to get us to practice our U-turns you know.

Cheers Skip for planning the route and being ok with a couple of changes. Really helped a few of us out.

Hope everyone else had a good day?

[Sean_C]

Who turned up in the end? Glad you all had a good time, annoyed I couldn't make it :p

[Sean_C]

Don't take after me Seggons!! :(

[Seggons]

Don't take after me Seggons!! :(

Lets just say I stopped before the ditch and was in between 2 road signs. If you ever go on the road of bones, look for the 15 foot skid mark. ;)

Attendees were:

Seggons
Pete 'n Lissa
Clio172
Mr Speirs
2mths
Bigbaddad
davy

I think that was all.

[Sean_C]

Which part of the road of bones?

At least you stopped before the ditch ;)

[Seggons]

The bit with the S-bend.

I was having the time of my life on the road of bones, really giving it some and feeling both wheels off the ground, it was great!

I then forgot just how tight the corner was, then I realised I was heading straight into Mr Speirs 20 - 30 mph quicker then he was going. So I took to the wrong side of the road, locked the rear tyre, grabbed as much front brake as I dare and aimed for the gap in between the corner marker signs.

I soon run out of road and went 5 or 10 foot down the grass slope. I then realised I was still alive, upright and the engine was still going. After little rocking of the bike, and the sound as I clicked down the gears I found neutral.

I then tried to reverse the bike back up the slope but to no avail. Luckily I had 4 or 5 bikers to hand to push me back up and onto the road. If it was safe enough I would've got a pic but it wasn't.

The the funniest bit of all, Skip and 2mths had missed it and was told by a car driver. So they turned round a rode back only to find the rest of us heading away from the crash scene. :D

Another one of my very lucky escapes. :D

[Seggons]

Guys and Girls, the fotos are up: http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=116765

[Sean_C]

My lucky escape was more serious than yours :(
Good on ya though, sounds like some quick thinking there and you chose the best thing to do :)

[Skip]

Another reasonably successful rideout - we all made it round this time (just!) although I am now officially bored with the Cambridgeshire fens - we need a new rideout location!!

Had a good ride back with Clio172 too - his SV can get a move on! :batman:

Cheers everyone for coming :D

[davy]

Thanx for organising Skip

[BigBaddad]

Thanks for putting this together skip. Tyres seems OK but will give it a day or two then I'll check the pressure. So there was another near miss was there, and this time not on a VFR.

Just before I left you guys, I took the liberty of putting a litre of oil in Pete's clutch to stop that rattling.

[Mr Speirs]

Still didn't stop it sounding like a bag of spanners :) :p

[petevtwin650]

Thanks for putting this together skip. Tyres seems OK but will give it a day or two then I'll check the pressure. So there was another near miss was there, and this time not on a VFR.

Just before I left you guys, I took the liberty of putting a litre of oil in Pete's clutch to stop that rattling.

Still didn't stop it sounding like a bag of spanners :) :p

Mr Speirs don't be lead astray by BigBaddad. He's just annoyed we got an Italian 1000cc V-Twin before he did.:smt019:smt019

[petevtwin650]

Good day out yesterday with a nice sized group and lovely peeps. I'm feeling in a generous mood this morning Keith. :p

Sadly we lost BBD to a puncture at Wisbech, although we suspect he dashed over to Sunny Hunny to have an ice creamed topped cinnamon doughnut with a stick of rock through the centre.:pukel:

And luckily, very luckily, we did not lose Seggons on that bend.[-o<

Nice to welcome a couple of new faces to the group and to see 2mths enjoying himself.

Topped it off with ice cream sundaes at Graffham. :D Or for Davy gallons of free booze as he nipped off for a Christening.

So, well done Skip for planning and leading the rideout:thumleft: You've got plenty of time to plan the next one now! :mrgreen:

[kwh]

The bit with the S-bend.

I was having the time of my life on the road of bones, really giving it some and feeling both wheels off the ground, it was great!

I then forgot just how tight the corner was, then I realised I was heading straight into Mr Speirs 20 - 30 mph quicker then he was going. So I took to the wrong side of the road, locked the rear tyre, grabbed as much front brake as I dare and aimed for the gap in between the corner marker signs.

I soon run out of road and went 5 or 10 foot down the grass slope. I then realised I was still alive, upright and the engine was still going. After little rocking of the bike, and the sound as I clicked down the gears I found neutral.

I then tried to reverse the bike back up the slope but to no avail. Luckily I had 4 or 5 bikers to hand to push me back up and onto the road. If it was safe enough I would've got a pic but it wasn't.

The the funniest bit of all, Skip and 2mths had missed it and was told by a car driver. So they turned round a rode back only to find the rest of us heading away from the crash scene. :D

Another one of my very lucky escapes. :D

What the...

I came back to this forum because Seggons hadn't posted any videos on his youtube account for a while and I wondered whether that was because the worst had happened or not. And now I'm cringing and tearing my hair out again.

FFS, does this man not have any friends? Does nobody who he respects enough to listen to care about him enough to take him aside and just tell him straight what is inevitably going to happen if he doesn't take major remedial action and get professional help with his riding or stop riding motorbikes altogether?

Can the people who giggled with him and thought it was a joke after this incident please re-apply to join the human race or something?

He locked the rear wheel, left it locked, and ran off the road at 15mph because he overused the rear brake and was scared to use the front brake properly. This is a fundamental riding error that will surely kill him all on its own if he ever does it with something solid in front of him.

And yet he stopped on grass within a few feet of the road, having failed to try to make the corner, and somebody here, who has either never ridden a motorbike properly, smokes a lot of crack or hates Seggons, told him that he "probably did the right thing". No. He didn't. At all. In any way. He did exactly what he did in that video several months ago when he should have been able to easily make the corner by countersteering, and he has demonstrably learnt nothing since. He was completely out of control of the situation and one oncoming vehicle or piece of solid scenery away from intensive care or worse.

As it was in that case, it is a miracle that he is still alive after this incident. This was another fatal sequence of cumulative basic riding errors that miraculously didn't kill Seggons this time. How many more basic and potentially fatal errors caused by lack of basic skills compounded by a serious attitude failure do you think Seggons is going to survive unscathed?

I am truly, truly speechless. I'm remarkably glad that I'm not a new rider with my first SV650 today, because I would undoubtedly have joined this forum, and no doubt damaged my survival prospects significantly. When he kills or maims himself, if anybody on this forum dare express surprise then I feel fully justified in outting them in every bike forum on the internet for the idiots they demonstrably are!

Grrrr!!!!!!

[2mths]

What the...

I came back to this forum because Seggons hadn't posted any videos on his youtube account for a while and I wondered whether that was because the worst had happened or not. And now I'm cringing and tearing my hair out again.

FFS, does this man not have any friends? Does nobody who he respects enough to listen to care about him enough to take him aside and just tell him straight what is inevitably going to happen if he doesn't take major remedial action and get professional help with his riding or stop riding motorbikes altogether?

Can the people who giggled with him and thought it was a joke after this incident please re-apply to join the human race or something?

He locked the rear wheel, left it locked, and ran off the road at 15mph because he overused the rear brake and was scared to use the front brake properly. This is a fundamental riding error that will surely kill him all on its own if he ever does it with something solid in front of him.

And yet he stopped on grass within a few feet of the road, having failed to try to make the corner, and somebody here, who has either never ridden a motorbike properly, smokes a lot of crack or hates Seggons, told him that he "probably did the right thing". No. He didn't. At all. In any way. He did exactly what he did in that video several months ago when he should have been able to easily make the corner by countersteering, and he has demonstrably learnt nothing since. He was completely out of control of the situation and one oncoming vehicle or piece of solid scenery away from intensive care or worse.

As it was in that case, it is a miracle that he is still alive after this incident. This was another fatal sequence of cumulative basic riding errors that miraculously didn't kill Seggons this time. How many more basic and potentially fatal errors caused by lack of basic skills compounded by a serious attitude failure do you think Seggons is going to survive unscathed?

I am truly, truly speechless. I'm remarkably glad that I'm not a new rider with my first SV650 today, because I would undoubtedly have joined this forum, and no doubt damaged my survival prospects significantly. When he kills or maims himself, if anybody on this forum dare express surprise then I feel fully justified in outting them in every bike forum on the internet for the idiots they demonstrably are!

Grrrr!!!!!!

I understand what you feel and are trying to say.

I only met Seggons for the first time on this ride and before we'd set of had heard all I needed to about the first incident. When I heard he'd done something very similar again I was a mixture of emotions but anger was among them.

However I've no right to bawl someone out over their riding and I'm not about to go and mess everyone's day up by taking issue with someone over something I didn't even see. I did tried to express my dissaproval at his attitude to events. I would be reluctant to ride with him again (I can say that about other's though that haven't crashed so maybe I'm just over-opinionated)[Edit: I also have to put my hand up and say my riding is far from good let alone perfect.]

Any accident is undesirable and unpleasant. An accident on a group ride is, imho, almost worse because it directly affects so many more people (though that said at least there are people to help). I've been on a number of rides with accidents and it's sickening. When on a group ride I feel obliged to try and take even more care than when I'm on my own as I'd hate to put anyone else through that.

But... each to their own, accidents happen. Hopefully the seriousness and implications will sink in with a little time.

That all said - he did seem a very likeable, good natured chap who would otherwise be an asset to any group ride. The two wheeled liablity thing is a damn shame.

[Sean_C]

Grr indeed. Choosing not to run into the person in front sounds like the right thing. I'm sure Seggons doesn't need an obnoxious **** to come in here and tell him about his riding, he's bright enough to know himself. And attitude- we all laughed (me included) after my crash but that doesn't mean some serious thinking/ resolutions/ actions didn't take place either.

[kwh]

Grr indeed. Choosing not to run into the person in front sounds like the right thing. I'm sure Seggons doesn't need an obnoxious **** to come in here and tell him about his riding, he's bright enough to know himself. And attitude- we all laughed (me included) after my crash but that doesn't mean some serious thinking/ resolutions/ actions didn't take place either.

Clearly, if he had known how, the right thing to have done would have been to read the road properly so that he could stop in the distance he could see to be clear on his own side of the road. Then he wouldn't have been travelling significantly faster than the bike in front.

Perhaps (a guess here, but I'll give you good odds based on every left hander on every single one of his videos) if Seggons had been positioned better on the road he would have been able to read the bend better, and see the bike in front from further back, instead of starting with his head buried in the hedge and being surprised by what happened in front of him out of his sight. But he doesn't believe this.

Also correct would have been not being so close to the bike in front that if it suddenly slowed, he was going to hit it unless he crossed on to the wrong side of the road. Where if a car or a truck had been coming he would surely have inevitably died, as (quite probably) would have a number of other people on the ride-out as the oncoming vehicle and the wreckage ended up hitting them head on. But he clearly doesn't know the two second rule.

Although having said that, if he had known how to use his brakes properly, he might not have needed to go onto the wrong side of the road at all. He probably could have slowed down enough not to hit the bike ahead. But he doesn't know how.

Also correct is that once he was on the wrong side of the road, he could have looked through the corner and countersteered around it, rather than target fixating and spearing straight off the road and finding out whether it was his day to die or not. If he had known how.

Also correct is that he could very obviously, since he didn't know how to steer effectively, have instead braked effectively and stopped well before he had left the road surface. Again, if he had known how.

In fact it appears that he didn't "do" anything at all. So anybody who tells him that 'he did the right thing' is either more ignorant than he is or actively hates him and wants him dead.

Seggons clearly knows no better, and having repeated the exact same serious of basic and fundamental almost fatal errors that made him notorious on the internet all those months ago, he obviously isn't "bright enough to know himself". And clearly doesn't believe/won't be told by anybody who has so far tried to tell him. After his first triple famous visit to the scenery, the entire internet (apart from those who thought it was a set-up), including riders from all over the world, many of whom are far more expert and qualified than I, was telling him that he had a serious skills problem that was going to kill him and others if he didn't sort it out. The entire internet... except this his home forum. Where nobody had apparently had a serious word with the bloke after he first posted the video, even after he had clearly drawn entirely and diametrically the wrong conclusions from it, ensuring that he obviously couldn't learn the lessons he should have learnt and was doomed to repeat the same mistakes until they killed him.

When the biking population of the internet found the vid (which is how I found it) and had its collective say, a chorus of voices from here piped up to say that there was nothing wrong with his riding, and defend him from all the nasty people round the world telling him to park the bike or get trained urgently. Who did he listen to? His 'friends'. With friends like this, who the hell needs enemies, eh?

Since that incident, he hasn't sought any kind of training. On the other hand, he has been posting riding video after riding video, and apparently been on rideout after rideout with his "friends" from the forum, and every video demonstrates that he is making the same fundamental errors on every corner of every ride, and is convinced that he is 'getting better' somehow. Better at what is not clear. Deluding himself, probably. And clearly, nobody who he is likely to listen to has said a word that I have read, on here or in his shell-like, in all that time. And now, nobody has apparently said a word again, despite him following the earlier template exactly. Ha ha, oh well, not dead, let's just carry on until you are. Giggle giggle.

Worse, I've just now read a thread where, quite unbelievably, some murderous psychopath who clearly doesn't think Seggons has killed himself quickly enough and wants to hurry the process along, has introduced somebody who clearly, demonstrably and obviously doesn't have even the most rudimentary grasp of road positioning, roadcraft or of machine control to "Offsiding" as something they should be doing. Or 'Causing Death By Dangerous Driving' as you might also call 'Offsiding in the wrong place'. I'd want the person who told Seggons to start doing this to be charged with manslaughter on grounds of gross criminal negligence if and when somebody (including but not limited to himself) dies as a result of Seggons cornering on the wrong side of the road in a wholly inappropriate place, as he surely must be about to attempt, if he hasn't already done so.

That man is going to kill himself through willful ignorance any day now, it's a miracle that he hasn't already, and nobody on here has lifted a finger to try and persuade him to do what he needs to do to survive. Whether that is to stop riding or to get trained urgently.

Instead, it seems OK to iust invite him to come out on another ride-out, to demonstrate his dangerous lack of skills some more, to pat him on the back when he has yet another near-death experience, to tell him he did the right thing, and then rinse and repeat for as long as he survives. Maybe somebody who as an advanced rider should in theory know far better should tell him to do something extraordinarily dangerous that they know he doesn't have the skills and judgment to pull off effectively and safely, just to spice things up...

Shoot the messenger again, why don't you.

Or look at yourselves in the mirror, and die of collective shame.

[DMC]

Clearly, if he had known how, the right thing to have done would have been to read the road properly so that he could stop in the distance he could see to be clear on his own side of the road. Then he wouldn't have been travelling significantly faster than the bike in front.

Perhaps (a guess here, but I'll give you good odds based on every left hander on every single one of his videos) if Seggons had been positioned better on the road he would have been able to read the bend better, and see the bike in front from further back, instead of starting with his head buried in the hedge and being surprised by what happened in front of him out of his sight. But he doesn't believe this.

Also correct would have been not being so close to the bike in front that if it suddenly slowed, he was going to hit it unless he crossed on to the wrong side of the road. Where if a car or a truck had been coming he would surely have inevitably died, as (quite probably) would have a number of other people on the ride-out as the oncoming vehicle and the wreckage ended up hitting them head on. But he clearly doesn't know the two second rule.

Although having said that, if he had known how to use his brakes properly, he might not have needed to go onto the wrong side of the road at all. He probably could have slowed down enough not to hit the bike ahead. But he doesn't know how.

Also correct is that once he was on the wrong side of the road, he could have looked through the corner and countersteered around it, rather than target fixating and spearing straight off the road and finding out whether it was his day to die or not. If he had known how.

Also correct is that he could very obviously, since he didn't know how to steer effectively, have instead braked effectively and stopped well before he had left the road surface. Again, if he had known how.

In fact it appears that he didn't "do" anything at all. So anybody who tells him that 'he did the right thing' is either more ignorant than he is or actively hates him and wants him dead.

Seggons clearly knows no better, and having repeated the exact same serious of basic and fundamental almost fatal errors that made him notorious on the internet all those months ago, he obviously isn't "bright enough to know himself". And clearly doesn't believe/won't be told by anybody who has so far tried to tell him. After his first triple famous visit to the scenery, the entire internet (apart from those who thought it was a set-up), including riders from all over the world, many of whom are far more expert and qualified than I, was telling him that he had a serious skills problem that was going to kill him and others if he didn't sort it out. The entire internet... except this his home forum. Where nobody had apparently had a serious word with the bloke after he first posted the video, even after he had clearly drawn entirely and diametrically the wrong conclusions from it, ensuring that he obviously couldn't learn the lessons he should have learnt and was doomed to repeat the same mistakes until they killed him.

When the biking population of the internet found the vid (which is how I found it) and had its collective say, a chorus of voices from here piped up to say that there was nothing wrong with his riding, and defend him from all the nasty people round the world telling him to park the bike or get trained urgently. Who did he listen to? His 'friends'. With friends like this, who the hell needs enemies, eh?

Since that incident, he hasn't sought any kind of training. On the other hand, he has been posting riding video after riding video, and apparently been on rideout after rideout with his "friends" from the forum, and every video demonstrates that he is making the same fundamental errors on every corner of every ride, and is convinced that he is 'getting better' somehow. Better at what is not clear. Deluding himself, probably. And clearly, nobody who he is likely to listen to has said a word that I have read, on here or in his shell-like, in all that time. And now, nobody has apparently said a word again, despite him following the earlier template exactly. Ha ha, oh well, not dead, let's just carry on until you are. Giggle giggle.

Worse, I've just now read a thread where, quite unbelievably, some murderous psychopath who clearly doesn't think Seggons has killed himself quickly enough and wants to hurry the process along, has introduced somebody who clearly, demonstrably and obviously doesn't have even the most rudimentary grasp of road positioning, roadcraft or of machine control to "Offsiding" as something they should be doing. Or 'Causing Death By Dangerous Driving' as you might also call 'Offsiding in the wrong place'. I'd want the person who told Seggons to start doing this to be charged with manslaughter on grounds of gross criminal negligence if and when somebody (including but not limited to himself) dies as a result of Seggons cornering on the wrong side of the road in a wholly inappropriate place, as he surely must be about to attempt, if he hasn't already done so.

That man is going to kill himself through willful ignorance any day now, it's a miracle that he hasn't already, and nobody on here has lifted a finger to try and persuade him to do what he needs to do to survive. Whether that is to stop riding or to get trained urgently.

Instead, it seems OK to iust invite him to come out on another ride-out, to demonstrate his dangerous lack of skills some more, to pat him on the back when he has yet another near-death experience, to tell him he did the right thing, and then rinse and repeat for as long as he survives. Maybe somebody who as an advanced rider should in theory know far better should tell him to do something extraordinarily dangerous that they know he doesn't have the skills and judgment to pull off effectively and safely, just to spice things up...

Shoot the messenger again, why don't you.

Or look at yourselves in the mirror, and die of collective shame.


I expect that Seggons totally agrees he has things to learn, however, the unconstructive tone of posts from someone who appears to have joined this forum purely for the purpose of giving him a kicking is not the way to do it.

Yes, Seggons needs a kick up the backside to ensure that he is not involved in such an event again, he needs to learn from his mistakes.

No ones perfect though, are they!?! I heard of someone called Ken who took an unroadworthy bike onto the road, only for his brake calipers to seize throwing him off - now what sort of idiot would let that happen :confused:

[kwh]

No ones perfect though, are they!?! I heard of someone called Ken who took an unroadworthy bike onto the road, only for his brake calipers to seize throwing him off - now what sort of idiot would let that happen :confused:

If you look at my website, as you clearly have, you'll find a large number of my early learning experiences documented, some of them painful. The online system I was on at the time, called CiX, has a Bikers conference, where people were free with their advice and happy to tell me I was being a prat, in amongst the sympathy. The lesson there was 'Make sure the important stuff is working before you ride off, do a pre-ride inspection." There were many others. I was quickly made aware of my limitations when I passed my test and tried never to make the same mistake twice. I was helped in that quest by the fellow denizens of CiX bikers. Some of the mistakes I could have made, including one big one that would quite definitely have killed me stone dead, were pre-empted by the advice I was offered.

Another member who had a far more reckless attitude to riding motorcycles and a far more cavalier attitude to the risks was also told, chose to ignore the advice, and inevitably died after a couple of really big accidents that put him in intensive care and that he was lucky to survive. It was very sad, but there was nobody on the forum who knew that they hadn't tried to talk some sense into the bloke, and had sadly failed.

If Seggons 'offsides' head-on into the front of a coach load of people tomorrow and causes a huge multiple fatality pile-up, who here could say the same? You could count them on the fingers of one foot, as far as I can see.

If Seggons "totally agrees he has things to learn" then why has he taken no training since the earlier incident, either formal or informal, and why does he appear to have learnt nothing and continue to make the same fundmental mistakes ride in, ride out?

And if Seggons "needs a kick up the backside to ensure that he is not involved in such an event again" then why wasn't he given it by the people he knows on this forum the first time he did this, or before, during and after every forum ride-out he has been associated with since, or after every video he has posted on the internet, or even now when he has just done the same thing he did those months ago again, and demonstrated exactly the same skills deficits and lack of awareness of them now as he did then?

Like I said, shoot the messenger if you like, but I'm just appalled.

[DMC]

If Seggons 'offsides' head-on into the front of a coach load of people tomorrow and causes a huge multiple fatality pile-up, who here could say the same? You could count them on the fingers of one foot, as far as I can see.

If Seggons "totally agrees he has things to learn" then why has he taken no training since the earlier incident, either formal or informal, and why does he appear to have learnt nothing and continue to make the same fundmental mistakes ride in, ride out?

And if Seggons "needs a kick up the backside to ensure that he is not involved in such an event again" then why wasn't he given it by the people he knows on this forum the first time he did this, or before, during and after every forum ride-out he has been associated with since, or after every video he has posted on the internet, or even now when he has just done the same thing he did those months ago again, and demonstrated exactly the same skills deficits and lack of awareness of them now as he did then?

Like I said, shoot the messenger if you like, but I'm just appalled.


Your entitled to your opinions, but your posts make alot of assumptions. I wasnt on this ride & I dont think you were either, so neither of us know the full facts of the circumstances leading to this accident. You assume that this is an everyday occurrence for Seggons, however, from the evidence I am aware of, we are talking of 2 or 3 similar events (yes, 2 or 3 events too many) but this is not every time he goes out on his bike like you suggest.

I dont know what training he has subsequently sought or what advice, if any, gained from people he knows or where in attendance, however, just because 'advice' has not been mentioned in any posts, does not mean it wasnt given. Having met a fair few people off this site, Im sure that Seggons would have been given a few pointers certainly.

I have only met Seggons once, on a ride on the wet roads of North Wales. On that ride he appeared reasonably competant and was certainly not involved in any incidents.

This forum, as with most other forums, is not a professional organisation, and at best, members are only qualified to offer 'lay' advice from their own experiences. As with any other road user, individuals are responsible for their own actions and for improving their own skill levels.

You are obviously the fortunate one who is far more gifted than the poor Mr Seggons and has been able to both ride avoiding hedges/coaches etc and also locate a forum offering excellent tuition. I fundamentally agree with your points, just not with your inability to express them in a constructive & personal manner.

Seems like your work here is done, all the best with saving the world :D

Now, be quiet, Im trying to eat my dinner.

[Mr Speirs]

Kwh. As DMC has said you have made a lot of assumptions one of the main ones is assuming that no-one on the ride out had given Seggons advice after the incident. After we had pushed Seggons back onto the road we rode on to the next safest place to regroup and analyse what just happened. Seggons was given some very good a proper advice from an experienced rider as to the seriousness and consequences of what happened and what could have happened.

I have no idea why you assumed that no advice was given. I assume it is because the posts on here do make light of it, which quite honestly it does but I don't really know why the people who went on this ride out and gave Seggons constructive criticism would then come on here and just keep posting exactly the same thing which he has already heard and hopefully taken on board.

Basically though what people are reading in your post is 'Why haven't the people on this forum prevented Seggons from either riding his bike or crashing.' or 'why do you people endorse crashing?' Thats why your getting peoples backs up.

Nobody wants anyone to crash or have any incident but to convey this do we have to shun people that have had incidents or in every single post remind these people what they should or shouldn't be doing?

[Seggons]

kwh if it's any help I cannot read any of your posts due to the fantastic function of the ignore list this forum has. I'm guessing your posts contain about how bad my riding is and that I should give up the bike etc etc...

I put it down to the area, it's cursed for me. This incident was only a few miles away from the other one. :D

Maybe I'm really really stupid, but I don't see it as that much of a big deal. Yes it could've been so much worse but it wasn't. Both times have been minor slides off the road and the only damage has been to the rear tyre. I'm more ashamed of tainting the rideout for others and the general impression I must of given off.

If people find me too much of a vulnerability then I'm happy to keep away from ride outs. I don't want people to be put off if they see me in the list of attendees.

[DMC]

If people find me too much of a vulnerability then I'm happy to keep away from ride outs. I don't want people to be put off if they see me in the list of attendees.

Hey Seggons, dont let KWH put you off. Im sure he means well, just got a strange way of expressing himself :eek: Oh the other hand, you could have yourself a cyber stalker :makelurve:

[kwh]

Both times have been minor slides off the road and the only damage has been to the rear tyre.

Oh well, so long as you are treating this sufficiently seriously and have drawn the correct conclusions for your future health and wellbeing, then neither I as an outsider nor anybody on this forum needs be bothered about your future health and wellbeing. I'll leave you to it.

PS: If there is anybody here... anybody at all... whose opinion Seggons does respect, or who Seggons will listen to, and who gives a ****... tell him to pay a professional for some intensive one on one training. Tell him to do it now. While he is still in a fit state to benefit from it.

[K]

May I just thank one and all.

As Moderator of this here little corner of the Org I was beginning to read this with some trepidation...

... but may I congratulate you all for retaining some sense of both decorum, grammer and spelling. ;)

I feel very proud of my boys, regardless of their riding skills.
Play nice. ;)

[Sean_C]

Grammar :D
Well done to DMC and Mr Speirs, you put across the points I was too wound up to articulate ;)

[K]

Grammar :D

Hey - I said I was proud of them...
... not myself. ;)

[DMC]

I feel very proud of my boys

Awww, Im honored to be one of your boys :cheers:

Shame you couldnt make it to the ring this year K, would have been good to meet you & I got the impression Neil missed you being there ;)

[charris]

So do all East Anglian rideouts end in controversy?

[hovis]

kwh if it's any help I cannot read any of your posts due to the fantastic function of the ignore list this forum has.

i cant be bothered to read his posts either.......... all he did last time was have a go at people on here

[Mike2165]

Although I didn't go on this rideout, I have been on rideouts before with EAR and amongst others who went, Seggons. I haven't got any problems with any of the riders I have been with before. I am not the fastest or even the most confident rider amongst them. It is made clear at the start of each ride, that you ride your own ride to your own abilitities. There are 'incidents' occasionally, including my own pull ups where through my own lack of confidence, but didn't result in me going off the road. I go on rideouts with EAR, because I gain experience with my riding, and advice from more experienced riders. Personally, I have taken myself to a trackday at Silverstone, to gain more confidence with my weakness - cornering. After doing the trackday, and cornering at 60mph (while others more experienced were passing me), I felt much more confident. After reading your posts, kwh, I can only assume that you are a trainer or have taken advanced training and think you're a better rider than all of us because of it. Personally, if the only reason you came on this site was to have a go at another rider, then I'll be hitting the ignore button too. I have a great deal of time for the people on this site, as I have found it invaluable for information, especially when I had an SV. The fact I no longer have an SV, but still come on this site, is mainly due to the friendliness and support on here. I will continue to come on this site and attend rideouts with confidence in other riders.

[BigBaddad]

Nope, we do all hate Seggons and his camera. He shouldn't take pictures and video to portray myself as some kind of lunging pervert, or skip as some freakish pie eater or 2mths as being a little mincer or Pete as being old ( well no actually he's got this one nailed on the head, Pete really is that old).

Disclaimer: the comments in this post have only been made for entertainment only. They are completely fictional with the exception of those made about Pete......and perhaps skip and 2mths. No animals where hurt in the making of this post.

[2mths]

I'm beginning to see a new side to BBD - the relatively quiet version I met on "Coast & Roast" has obviously developed into a version 2.0 with the addition of a "cheek" module.

BBD's got a point though - Seggons is rather handy with a camera.

[kwh]

Personally, if the only reason you came on this site was to have a go at another rider, then I'll be hitting the ignore button too.

Ah, you found me out. I like to cruise the internet looking for random bike forums and then pick on people for gratuitous abuse.

Not.

Actually, I'm trying really hard to stop a young bloke I don't know from Adam and who I've never even met from killing himself messily through serial ignorance and incompetence, by firstly trying to persuade him to seek professional help to save his life. Something that everybody on this site seems to be utterly against him doing for some bizarre and unconscionable reason. And secondly, since he has blanked that suggestion from about two thousand people elsewhere on the net, by spending ridiculous amounts of my valuable time for no obvious reward except trying to make him realise some of the potentially fatal errors he is making and either fix them or seek professional help, on individually deconstructing a number of his Youtube videos and highlighting, second by second, the individual and potentially fatal riding errors he is repeatedly making.

You could ask why I'm doing this. **** knows. I could ask why none of the people who claim to be his friends here, some of whom hopefully know better, haven't already done any of these things. Is it callous disregard, or is everybody else here equally clueless and dangerous perhaps?

I have a great deal of time for the people on this site, as I have found it invaluable for information, especially when I had an SV. The fact I no longer have an SV, but still come on this site, is mainly due to the friendliness and support on here. I will continue to come on this site and attend rideouts with confidence in other riders.

Perhaps people who say things like 'His riding was alright when I watched it' are just closing ranks against the nasty outsider. In which case they are killing Seggons with their loyalty and collective arrogance. On the other hand, perhaps they - and you - know no better?

He's not reading my posts, so my extensive and time consuming efforts to try and constructively educate him via PM and thus save his life (not that he seems to care much for it himself) were obviously all wasted.

Why, for instance, has nobody here explained to him about counter steering? Clearly he should have learnt about that before he took his test, but taking it on a 125 may mean that it wasn't covered in his training even though it desperately needed to be. It's a basic riding skill, and it is obvious that he doesn't have it, doesn't understand it, doesn't use it, doesn't know what it is. Why has nobody here educated him after watching his videos? Is it because you lot don't know either?

If not, read this...

http://www.survivalskills.clara.net/riding_skills_10.htm

...and then after you've read it and understood it, somebody might tell Seggons about it and get him to read it as well...

[kwh]

Another one. Here is something posted by a highly respected professional advanced riding instructor in response to Seggons original video, which he has now removed from Youtube for some reason.

http://survivalskills.wordpress.com/2008/06/19/cornering-accidents-avoidable-errors-and-simple-solutions/

Why didn't anybody here say something similar to Seggons? Why is he still making exactly the same mistakes three months later and courting death in a similar fashion, apparently untroubled by any constructive criticism or information from his "Friends"?

[kwh]

Finally, here's an example of the kind of constructive PM I sent Seggons in July. Which he obviously never read, so I wasted my effort. Why did nobody off this site do something similar?

This was a deconstruction of and commentary on http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1xWYCZkea4


OK, this demonstrates some improvement, I can see that you are making a major effort to look through right handers rather than looking at the scenery for a start, but there is still much more wrong than right with your riding. I know you think you don't need any training but please, if you want to live, humour me...
Just by way of example, and just using what can be determined from your video, here's a few pointers, with timings that relate to the video. Print it out and look at it as you watch, and take note of the comments relevant to the times...

Time - Observation

0:25 - What's that car doing there? Is there a driver who might open the door or pull out or whatever? Nothing coming so why not give it room just in case?

0:35 - Gentle left hander, but you are close to the left hand hedge. If you were out near the white line you could see miles further ahead, and give yourself loads more time to deal with anything.

0:47 - And again...

0:48 - The DSA teach you to ride along the road in the middle of your lane, but you can see the problem with that here on less well travelled and country roads - the wheel tracks are cleaned and cleared by cars, between them is covered in road crap and detritus.

1:18 - First proper right hander, deliberate head movement to look through the corner, but you are turning way too early, and hanging your head over the white line. If you were only doing this on the open corners you could see through before you turned then it wouldn't be a problem, but you do it everywhere and eventually it will kill you in one of several ways.

1:47 - ...and 1:49, big clunks as you downshift without blipping or matching the revs. Messy, and while that is usually all it is, especially on the V-twin, if it's raining or the back end is on a slick spot when the clutch goes out, the back wheel can lock and go sideways, and you can be spat down the road. Which will hurt a lot, but only if you are lucky. If you keep downshifting without matching revs, eventually it will happen.

1:57 - A tight left hander & you've turned in early & dived for the hedge, hard in the left hand gutter. At this point, your view is completely restricted, & the view of anybody coming the other way of you is similarly restricted. Also, you've made an assumption about the profile of the corner and chosen an apex as if you were on a track. If you are wrong and it suddenly tightens up, you are pretty much guaranteed to be caught out and run wide, and thus straight into anything coming the other way. You also do this everywhere and eventually this also will kill you.

2:06 - A tight right hander, early turn-in again, head over the centre line again, well placed to be taken off, very restricted view.

2:11 - Charging the back of the car somewhat; ideally you pull out and then accelerate, that way if the car drops anchor for some reason (maybe something runs out in front of it), you don't end up in the back seat.

2:25 - Left hander, turn in early, head in hedge, restricted view.

2:47 - A handy sign warning you that there is a junction on your left ahead, which should be your cue that there may be traffic emerging from your left ahead, that you'd like to see you coming and that you would like to see as well, so if you move to the crown of the road then you can see into the junction and drivers can see you...

2:50 - But here you can barely see the junction and a driver stopping at the give way line and looking left will only see an empty road because you are hidden in the hedge...

2:51 - ...meaning that if you do it often enough, somebody who cannot possibly see you will come up to that junction or one like it as you approach and then pull out in front of you at some point.

2:56 - Clunk

2:59 - Clunk, and a sign telling you there is an S-bend ahead.

3:04 - OK, you are approaching the first a right hander of the S-bend, and you can see the junction on the left of that bend ahead, but the sign tells you that there is also a right turn ahead, round the bend. So you need to expect cars stopped waiting to turn right, and cars emerging from the junction and turning right and left, possibly crossing the centre line to do it. So you need to allow for the left junction, but this would be a very bad place to turn in early and hang your head over the white line...

3:05 - ...but your line here is hard left, concealing you from anything waiting in the left hander and concealing anything in the left hander from you...

3:06 - ...and now you've dived into the corner early, head over the white line, view restricted...

3:09 - ...and would have been in real trouble if something had emerged from the junction on the right or if something had been stationary waiting to turn right. And your positioning here means you won't be have seen or been seen by anything waiting in that right hand junction until about now, as many as two seconds later than you might have seen or been seen. If you'd been unlucky, that two seconds could have been the difference between somebody pulling out and killing you, and somebody seeing you and not pulling out. This frame in the video could be the front of a transit about to hit you head on. Keep doing this & eventually it will be.

3:12 - Left hander, turn in early, dive for the hedge, restricted view.

3:23 - Klunk

3:28 - Tight, Blind Left Hander - early turn in, head in the hedge, restricted view.

3:36 - Sweeping right hander, early turn in, head over white line, restricted view...

3:49 - Gentle left hander ahead, but you can't see through it because you are in the left hand hedge...

3:52 - A sign tells you that there is a left hand junction preceeding a right-left S-Bend. So you have to worry about traffic emerging from the left, and also stuff you can't see yet wanting to turn across you into the junction.

3:56 - ...but you've approached in the left had gutter, meaning you can't see into the junction or be seen easily from the junction. The shape of the junction would have allowed you to clear it (i.e. make sure nothing was going to emerge) further back if you had positioned yourself to the crown of the road, and then faded left later to maximise view round the first bend. Instead...

3:59 - ...you've done the opposite, restricting your view at every opportunity, here almost hanging your head over the white line and creating areas you cannot see that you should be able to see...

4:05 - ...and then diving for the hedge on the left hand element of the S-bend again.

4:10 - Worth noting this right hander because it looks like you got it right.

4:14 - Klunk!

4:18 - And then you dive for the hedge on the left hander. Note the guy coming the other way who is about to hang his head over your side of the road mid-corner. A lot of people do it. Doesn't make it any less dangerous.

4:58 - A sign warns you of a right hand S-Bend followed by a left hand T-junction...

5:03 - And then a better sign showing you that the left junction is halfway through the first right hander of the S-bend, so you want to see and be seen into and from the junction, then see round the bend...

5:08 - The gutter line on approach matters less here because you can be seen from the junction, but you'd still see and be seen better if you approached from further out and then moved left once you were a little closer to the junction...

5:10 - ...but again, early turn in, head over the white line...

5:11 - ...and then the same thing on the left hander, early turn in, head in hedge, restricted view.

5:32 - Early turn in, head in hedge, restricted view.

6:06 - You got this gentle left-hander right.

6:28 - You are on a roll!

6:35 - Sign should prepare you for a right hander with a left-hand T-junction in the middle of it...

6:39 - ...but your positioning doesn't take account of the junction...

6:41 - ...and then you turn in early and hang your head over the white line.

6:56 - Right hand sweeper, but you've turned in early and hung your head over the white line, restricting your view and exposing yourself to danger...

7:24 - Looking at scenery cool, riding bike cool, both at once not cool. How close to the scenery were you there?

7:35 - Early turn-in, in the hedge, restricted view on the left hander...

8:09 - You've badly lost the plot here. Not looking through the corner, slowed right down, turned in early, restricted view, head almost over the white line....

8:29 - Klunk!

End.


You need somebody behind you for a day, giving you feedback, showing you what to do and how to do it, picking up your mistakes, teaching you riding strategies, sorting out your machine control problems...



Now, why did an offensive nasty troll like me from the bowels of the internet take the time to do that, when none of his "friends" could be bothered?

Stick your collective tongues out at me all you'll like... I'll still be here tomorrow, more than likely. Which is something that you can't say for your "mate" Seggons, whether you realise it or not!

[hovis]

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k295/hovi5/enemies_internet_trolls.jpg

[kwh]

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k295/hovi5/enemies_internet_trolls.jpg

Thank you, that tells me all I need to know about this forum.

I shall make sure that I steer any new rider I come across who is thinking about buying an SV650 well away from the place for the sake of their continued health and wellbeing, and for the sake of their continued development as riders.

[Sean_C]

You seem to have glazed over the point that was made that on the rideout, they did stop and talk about what had just happened.
One point- I'm not against any form of advanced training, indeed I'm going to have one day every few weeks with an excellent instructor, starting after things have died down due to the new test coming in. I'm sure nobody else here is against advanced training.

[Mr Speirs]

I don't know what you have against us on this forum kwh but you are obviously on a crusade to ignore the facts, make incorrect assumptions and offend everyone here in this, our community.

Personally I read through every post you have made and each one has been wildly obsurd to say the least. You seem to me to be on a mission to single out Seggons as the worlds worst rider and belittle and patronise everyone else on the forum for you assuming (yet again) that we don't offer advice or care for the well being of anyone on a bike.

While you believe you a trying to help you come across agressive and patronising to everyone here and so people here start pointing out flaws in the way you conduct yourself and somehow you manage misinterpret this, become defensive and accuse the community on this forum of condoning dangerous riding. This is apparent as you only seem to respond to posts the are negative towards you.

As Sean C has said you managed to miss the post that clearly stated that advice and much more was given immediately after the incident and explains why there are jovial posts on the incident.

Let me just say that again. Advice was given after the incident. Consequences and possibilities were discussed. Now knowing that as fact your accusations become invalid and frankly offensive.

Don't misinterpret me. I think everyone who hasn't been riding a bike for a good amount of years would benefit from Advanced Training I absolutely agree with you and so will everyone on here I suspect but don't come on here with your assumptions to accuse people on this forum of condoning dangerous riding when that simply is not true.

[Lissa]

I wasn't going to respond to kwh's posts, but on reflection, I think I will.

kwh, you may indeed have Seggons best interests at heart, but I like many others thought your posts on Seggons initial video thread were a bit off. Offer advice, yes, but linking to all the threads on other sites just came across to me as a deliberate attempt to humiliate. I don't know how they act on other forums, but we don't set out on org to deliberately humiliate anyone. There are ways to discuss people's problems, and that wasn't it.

I also didn't like your assumption that nothing was said to Seggons after this incident. It was. He was made fully aware of just how fatal it could have been.

There are many people on here, my other half being one of them, who are strong advocates of further training, be it Bike Safe, IAM or Rospa. But who are we to order anyone to do these schemes? We can only advocate them.

[fizzwheel]

when none of his "friends" could be bothered?


Yes, but you dont know that do you.

I had a natter with Seggons on the Ecosse rideout about one or two things I also thought his riding was much improved from the youtube videos that you refer to.

We all make mistakes now and again, and we all have something to learn from every ride we go on. Being a new or inexperienced rider means sometimes a steep learning curve so perhaps your orginal comments were just to much to take in for a young person venturing out in the big bad world on his bike.

Perhaps this was just a momentary lapse of concentration, as said above he was out that day with a bunch of experienced riders and I know those that were out with him would have spoken to him about what he'd just done.

Every .org rideout I've been on nothing but respect and well being for others has been shown, I doubt this one was any different, if you werent on the rideout then you wont know what was said before during or after this incident. All your basing your posts on is a couple of videos, you cant judge one mans riding by this incident alone.

I realise you have his best interests at heart, nobody likes to see another rider struggle or make mistakes or put themselves at risk.

Its difficult to pass comment on anothers persons riding without sometimes it being recieved poorly I've seen it happen and I've seen it be taken the wrong way. I think that somewhere in all this Seggons has actually admited he made a mistake, so he's on the path to fixing the problems and not repeating them, if you'd give him a chance rather than ramming things down his throat ( whether you feel you are or not this is how your posts come across )

[kwh]

I wasn't going to respond to kwh's posts, but on reflection, I think I will.

kwh, you may indeed have Seggons best interests at heart, but I like many others thought your posts on Seggons initial video thread were a bit off. Offer advice, yes, but linking to all the threads on other sites just came across to me as a deliberate attempt to humiliate. I don't know how they act on other forums, but we don't set out on org to deliberately humiliate anyone. There are ways to discuss people's problems, and that wasn't it.

When I found the thread, by Googling for the Youtube URL having come to it from elsewhere on the internet and boggled not just at the basic riding errors displayed, but the wholly incorrect "lessons" that Seggons had "learnt" and then added to his video as captions, basically misdiagnosing the entire episode and therefore not getting the point at all, it was if you will remember a good couple of months after it happened. When I read the entire thread, I was quite dismayed by the lethally poor quality of the feedback that Seggons had been given. Not only had he failed to understand why he had crashed three times in five minutes, but nobody had sought to accurately inform him, and there had effectively been no correction posted of his mistaken assumptions, no (accurate) discussion of what he could do to ensure that it didn't happen again, and there were people nodding sagely and validating Seggons clearly incorrect self-diagnosis. Having looked at the remainder of his videos, it was clear that nothing had changed in his riding since the incident, and that he obviously hadn't himself identified any need for a fundamental root and branch change to his riding, or that his life was seriously at risk if he continued as he was.

I had no interest in humiliating the bloke - it wasn't like I was poking fun at his ears or the size of his nose, for a start - it's nothing he couldn't make major inroads towards fixing very quickly if he was sufficiently motivated, and if he was well enough informed. My first post (I'd have to go and look at it now to remember what I said) was almost certainly meant to make it clear to a rider whose video, skills and survival prospects the internet riding community had already judged at great length, but whose home forum had apparently not at the time, that he had a serious problem and that he needed to do something right now to fix it or he would kill himself and/or others. And then I was surrounded by a crowd of forumites who accused me of being beastly to young Mr Seggons, so I posted a load of links from elsewhere to try and make it clear that it wasn't me being beastly, it was riders all over the world watching and judging, and the consensus of all of them saying many of the the same things.

Then people told me that I was saying it in the wrong way, so I started privately telling Seggons that he needed to sort out some training, but he didn't appear to be interested. I did play by play analysis of a couple of his rides from his videos, trying to make him understand that he had a critical skills problem that he needed to solve before he died of it. As I discover, I wasted my effort because he had put me on ignore.

His videos show that three months later he hasn't changed the way he rides at all, and he hasn't apparently acquired any new skills or knowledge, that he consistently rejects high quality advice from any and all sources, presumably because it conflicts with the abysmal quality of advice he gets round here, his posts show that he hasn't apparently participated in or even arranged to participate in any kind of remedial training, and now it seems he has had exactly the same kind of 'Russian Roulette' incident again where he is incredibly lucky to have survived unscathed.

Even after cheating death again, still people appear on here appear to be joking about it or (idiotically, moronically, fatuously, ridiculously) telling him "He did the best thing". Is there no point at which anybody is going to point out what he actually did wrong to him or tell him that his life depends on acquiring some essential basic riding skills that he currently does not have? I hear it suggested that people actually had this discussion with him face to face. All I see is pictures of people pointing at his rear tyre and smirking, joking about it, and Seggons making light of the whole thing or implying that I'm just trolling.

The final nail in the coffin this time was that despite not giving Seggons any useful advice on here, somebody who must have some kind of advanced riding background along the line has obviously actually told him to try 'offsiding'. What kind of person offers no useful riding advice but instead suggests trying 'offsiding' to somebody who cannot chose a sensible road position to save his life, nor knows how to countersteer to get back on his own side of the road in an emergency?

That's not life saving advice, that's assisted suicide!

Anyway, my initial aim wasn't to humiliate anybody. It was to save a life. I didn't invent thousands of riders around the world pointing at Seggons video and calling him a dangerous idiot not long for this world who should take the bus in future. I didn't post a video on the internet of me riding off the road three times in succession on gentle right hand bends and then incorrectly diagnosing why, either.

As it happens, total humiliation worked quite well for me though - I humilated myself by crashing two different bikes on the same day through gross incompetence.

http://www.cix.co.uk/~kwh/page15.htm

I was perhaps old enough and wise enough to realise that actually, the problem was that I didn't have a single clue what I was doing. I went on a rabid quest for knowledge, for training, for literature and skills. It was a single, scant month later I think when the combined input of better and more experienced riders than myself, my reading and extensive practice definitely saved my life; I made another potentially fatal mistake and then rescued the situation by not making another, by countersteering aggressively and looking where I wanted to go, and by not having a high speed collision with a forest of metal posts as a result.

http://www.cix.co.uk/~kwh/page16.htm


Had I not had that epiphany of realising that I was so basically useless that I was a danger to myself and others, I would not have made the (huge and yet not hard) changes in my approach to the mental exercise and the mechanics of riding that in one month meant that while I was not in any way the finished article, my riding had improved enough that I did not do exactly what I had done 4 weeks earlier at the Gooseneck at Cadwell Park (where I'd bottled out, and stood the bike up having given up on getting round a corner I would have easily got round if I'd known how, then ridden straight off the track and ended up in a heap wrapped round the tyre wall...).


I also didn't like your assumption that nothing was said to Seggons after this incident. It was. He was made fully aware of just how fatal it could have been.

As long as he thinks it was also funny, or 'just one of those things', or 'was caused by {something other than his lack of key skills that he will not pick up by osmosis}, that won't help. And the photos do not show an intensive debrief, tehy show pointing and laughing. Seggons attitude doesn't seem to be that of a man who now understands what he actually did wrong and what he has to do to fix it and ensure he never makes the same series of mistakes again, either.

There are many people on here, my other half being one of them, who are strong advocates of further training, be it Bike Safe, IAM or Rospa. But who are we to order anyone to do these schemes? We can only advocate them.

Where are the mentors? Where are the experienced and advanced riders on this forum offering their wisdom? (Not people telling him that 'He did the best thing', people with a clue!). Where are the people who know Seggons, who he might actually listen to, telling him to get trained, putting him in touch with trusted advanced trainers in his local area, suggesting books he should buy and read, doing what I did above with oine of his videos and critiquing his technique constructively?

And finally, this isn't personal, it is only about Seggons because he posted a video demonstrating his imminent mortality on the internet. I see idiots regularly, I see incompetence regularly, I rarely have an opportunity to do anything about it. If I saw somebody looking for a gas leak with a lighted match, I'd say something, though, and I saw Seggons video, saw he was not long for this world and decided that if somebody gave him a clue, he'd probably still be here to enjoy riding this time next year, so I could save a life at minimal effort.

Shows how well that worked out. I should have laughed callously when I first saw the video and moved on, foprgetting about it months ago, shouldn't I...

[Lissa]

kwh..................just because people don't post 'advice' to Seggons on the forum, doesn't mean they don't either say it to his face, or via pm. Why can you not seem to get that point?

As for off-siding, there are several people on here who do it, Pete and I included. There have been several threads on the subject, but no-one as far as I know has EVER told ANYONE that they SHOULD be doing it.

[Messie]

KWH - please return to your outpost of a warped psyche and leave our little haven of relative peace and harmony.

Thank you

[kwh]

kwh..................just because people don't post 'advice' to Seggons on the forum, doesn't mean they don't either say it to his face, or via pm. Why can you not seem to get that point? .

Really? Do you know that, or are you just hoping? If people are giving Seggons bad advice on the forums, but good advice face to face or via PM, why has nothing apparently changed in Seggon's riding or his attitude?

As for off-siding, there are several people on here who do it, Pete and I included. There have been several threads on the subject, but no-one as far as I know has EVER told ANYONE that they SHOULD be doing it.

OK, let's look at offsiding. I presume you come from an advanced riding background if you are using this technique. The last time I heard, Offsiding had been dropped from the official IAM syllabus on the grounds that the risks outweighed the benefits. I'm not sure whether that is true, and I know that a lot of individual advanced riders, observers and instructors don't agree, but I do know (or have been told) that before they removed it from their official syllabus, the IAM lost two experienced and well respected Chief Observers from two different IAM groups to fatal accidents while offsiding, which probably had something to do with it.

I also understand that as of a year or two ago, every single police advanced training school bar one had dropped elective offsiding as a technique taught to Class 1 trainees, again because the risk-reward ratio wasn't right. The one school that does still advocate elective offsiding is very clear that the only time you should do it is when you know for certain (due to local knowledge most likely) that it is safe, that you will (not might) gain a significant advantage in view by doing it, and that you are at zero risk of being trapped on the wrong side of the road by same-direction traffic. Apparently Class 1 coppers were occasionally dying when offsiding went wrong, and the advantage of a few miles an hour and a slightly extended view was judged not worth the significantly heightened risk, and the fact that it freaks out other road users so much.

So anyway, all that should tell you (as I'm sure you already know) that offsiding can kill even very, very good riders if they get it slightly wrong, and that before you consider using the technique, you had better understand exactly what you are doing, why you are doing it, when and why you shouldn't and how to abort and get back on your own side of the road in a real hurry if you suddenly find a Ferrari or a Fireblade doing 120mph coming head on towards you on its own side of the road. Remembering that you not only have to get out of its way, but do so before the driver/rider of the Ferrari/Fireblade tries to get out of your way and utter carnage results.

Alright, so there are people here who use Offsiding. Cool. How do you think Seggons got the idea that it was something he should be doing, given that he doesn't have a handle on road positioning full stop, as a quick glance at any of his videos or five minutes behind him would tell you? Has somebody told him to do it? You say no. Has he seen you do it and thought "Oh, that's cool! Riding on the wrong side of the road round corners is a good idea! I'll try that!"? Well, I doubt it, but let us say that he did decide to try it all on his own. He talked about trying it, I saw a post in his history where he talked about it. Why did none of the people with an advanced background tell him that if he didn't know exactly 110% what he was doing, either with positioning or with countersteering, it would be an incredibly stupid thing to try and that he should sort himself out a lot of training before he should even think about it? If they did, he ignored them, because then I read a hint that perhaps he tried it on the Scottish trip and had yet another near death experience. I suspect that nobody did warn him off, either on the forum or by PM. Has anybody since?

It all seems more than unsatisfactory. Either Seggons ignores everything anybody tells him in his determination to kill himself, or nobody is telling him what he needs to hear/read. My assumption is the latter, obviously. Tell me I'm wrong.

To be honest, I wouldn't want to ride behind a rider who might decide to go round the wrong corner on the wrong side of the road at the wrong moment ahead of me. If I didn't care about him, I'd care about the vehicle coming the other way that might swerve into my path to avoid him. I don't know many riders who would. So what's going on?

[Lissa]

http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=109961&highlight=siding

http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=108526&highlight=siding

I think you'll see by reading these threads that anyone who uses off-siding is very careful to point out the correct way it should be done.

[fizzwheel]

If they did, he ignored them, because then I read a hint that perhaps he tried it on the Scottish trip and had yet another near death experience. I suspect that nobody did warn him off

I did talk to him about this after one section. I said I dont do it and I explained my reasons why. I felt like he listened to what I had to say and also I dont recal him having a near miss either.

[K]

It all seems more than unsatisfactory. Either Seggons ignores everything anybody tells him in his determination to kill himself, or nobody is telling him what he needs to hear/read. My assumption is the latter, obviously. Tell me I'm wrong.

You're wrong - there you go, job done. :cool:

Why are you wrong... well you are being very vocal about telling him what you feel he needs to hear & read - and yet you also feel that it is making no difference.

Therefore why don't you cease now and go and perhaps peruse the rest of the site and find something else to post about.