filtering and road position

[hovis]

wheres the ideal place to be when filtering?

take my accident for example.

the road was about 8 meters wide, and the traffic was stationery for about 1 mile due to an accident, there was not much traffic comming the other way, as the road was closed, so i was about about 3-4 foot to the right of the white line, probaly a meter away from the parked cars.

i have had a bit of a look on tinternet

just filling the forms out:mad:

[Mogs]

I would probably go a little further out, a meter and a half gets you well away from the sudden opening doors.

[ThEGr33k]

if there is oncomming traffic I just stick as close to the cars on my side as I can. I think its easy to see you then if they look in the mirror. If there is no oncomming traffic then I go just over the white line. Same reason, shoul be seen in mirrors till you are practiaclly past.

Cheers.

[Mogs]

I totally disagree with you Greek, if there oncomming traffic then this position is the second best place to be after getting back into the flow.

When there is no oncomming traffic is when a U'ee or a door opening is most likely to occur, staying close will mean that you are in the cone of visibilty longer, but you are relying on the driver to look and react to you. Riding defensively means you retain control by minimising the danger and not relying on the other drivers.

[hovis]

i was thinking more from a legal point of veiw.

probaly the safest place would be the middle of the wrong side of the road, which sounds a bit odd

[ooger]

I was reminded yesterday that trying to filter on the motorway between lanes 1 and 2 was epically dangerous.


Won't be trying that again for a while.

[muffles]

I increase my speed as I increase my distance from the danger...so, I would probably be 7.5 metres away from the cars. I just can't see any logical reason to stay any closer, assuming you can see far enough ahead on the other side of the road. As cars approach on the other side, I move back in and slow down. Cars don't tend to turn into other cars on the other side of the road, so you can worry a bit less about them trying to do a U-turn with you that close to them.

[muffles]

i was thinking more from a legal point of veiw.

probaly the safest place would be the middle of the wrong side of the road, which sounds a bit odd

What legal viewpoint do you mean? Are you asking what filtering position would look "best" in the eyes of the law? I'd have thought it would be what I just said - the furthest away, which is 99% the safest :confused:

The safest would be as far away as you can get from the cars...so not the middle, but the far right of the "wrong" side of the road...

[ThEGr33k]

I was reminded yesterday that trying to filter on the motorway between lanes 1 and 2 was epically dangerous.


Won't be trying that again for a while.

I always do it between 2 and 3. 1 and 2 is bad like. :(

Well to be honest there isnt a safe way to filter... Though id say you are probably right about being in the middle of the other lane. Not often you get chance to do that though.

As for the legality. On a normal road with broken white line you are ok to do it. It counts as over taking. As for the motorway. You can overtake in the same lane and you can undertake if your lane is moving faster than the one on your right. So you are fine there as well. :D

[hovis]

7.5 meters ?

[muffles]

And the mirrors thing... problem is it then puts the onus for your safety onto the car driver, whereas moving right out puts the onus (and therefore, the control) onto you. I want me to be in control of my safety, not the cars! ;)

[muffles]

7.5 meters ?

I'm sorry I misread. I thought you said there was a gap of 8 metres from the side of the car to the other side of the road, actually you said the whole road is 8 metres wide. What I meant was that I would probably be 50cm from the opposite side of the road - the 50cm just to allow for variations in the width, dirt and cr*p near the edge, etc.

[muffles]

Oh, I also just noticed you said there was parked cars on the other side too :-#

That's also a hazard so I would have to balance my speed & distances from each side a bit differently. In this case it's a bit hard to say without seeing the roads & knowing the speeds. One thing I would say is that a moving car seems to do a U-turn a lot more unexpectedly than a car at a standstill (assuming all wheels point forward). A parked car you see the wheels turning, etc, before it does it, a moving car does it pretty much instantaneously.

So I'd probably be biased towards staying nearer to the parked cars.

[hovis]

Oh, I also just noticed you said there was parked cars on the other side too :-#

That's also a hazard so I would have to balance my speed & distances from each side a bit differently. In this case it's a bit hard to say without seeing the roads & knowing the speeds. One thing I would say is that a moving car seems to do a U-turn a lot more unexpectedly than a car at a standstill (assuming all wheels point forward). A parked car you see the wheels turning, etc, before it does it, a moving car does it pretty much instantaneously.

So I'd probably be biased towards staying nearer to the parked cars.


sorry no parked cars

twas a single carridge way

[21QUEST]

What's all this talk of numbers eh.... me, I don't take a tape measure with me :p ;)


Sorry no real answer for you....I don't teach very well :) . All I know is that one has to analyse continously what's going on as I think, some have touched on.


I will also say, If one is constantly thinking of 'legal point of view.....' then perhaps one should even be filtering.


Improving your chances of not having an accident/staying alive entials what I like call 'dynamic thinking' haha......how pompous does that sound :smt116 :lol:



Ben

[Ceri JC]

And the mirrors thing... problem is it then puts the onus for your safety onto the car driver, whereas moving right out puts the onus (and therefore, the control) onto you. I want me to be in control of my safety, not the cars! ;)

That's my POV too. The usual IAM line is that you shouldn't be too close as that doesn't give you enough control (although gives them the best chance of seeing you), but instead you should strike a balance between being in the safest position and letting them see you. In my book, the safest position is where I have most control, which is a bit further towards the other side of the road. I think relying on other road users to see you (even if you ride a dayglow bike in high vis with a HID conversion) is asking for trouble...

[muffles]

sorry no parked cars

twas a single carridge way

Oh so when you said parked cars, did you mean the queuing traffic? In which case the previous applies :) 50cm from the other side of the road...

[hovis]

yeah........

i said parked as they were not going anywhere due to the accident

[fizzwheel]

Depends... I dont stick to hard and fast rules when filtering. I just do what I feel is safe and that means either

1. Not filtering at all

2. Sitting where I know I am visable to the car drivers and keeping my speed low and making sure I give them every opportunity to see me. But keeping an escape route in mind.

In your situation. I'd be doing this probably, but it depends on the road and also the width of the road.

3. Sitting right out in the other lane so I am as far away from them as possible. Again keeping an escape route in mind and my speed low or roughly the same as the cars that I'm filtering past.

As for the legal side of things. Dont know never really considered it... I would put my safety first rather than relying on the legalities of situation once that situation has occured ( i.e. I've been knocked off )

[Mr Speirs]

Just a stupid question from a newbie.

The highway code doesn't really mention anything about filtering and so the only thing we interpret is:

"Do not overtake where you might come into conflict with other road users. For example approaching or at a road junction on either side of the road"

Does that mean it is legal to filter past stationary/very slow traffic on a motorway on the right hand side of the third lane?
My reasoning for thinking about this would be to avoid blind lane changers taking me out.

Please be kind to me and tell me how stupid I am for even thinking this in the kindest possible way haha

Cheers Chris

[hovis]

i would be on the inside of the 3rd lane

[BillyC]

If anything, I wonder if you were too far out.

I aim to be quite close to the cars I'm passing, if only to ensure that I'm not in their blind spot and can be seen in their wing mirrors. It also helps, heaven forbid, that if they do pull out, the impact is minimal compared to being further out when you risk t-boning the car that pulled out rather than just scraping its side. Of course the further out you are, the higher the risk of affecting, or being affected by oncoming traffic. I speak from experience - this isn't good.

There's no question that filtering in stationary traffic is the most dangerous - drivers rarely check their blindspots in this situation - and certainly not before their front wheels have turned and they've poked the nose of their vehicle out a bit. However, in flowing traffic, they're almost obliged to check mirrors and look over shoulders.

Finally, if I'm filtering I'm always looking at the 3 or 4 cars that I'm about to pass ahead of me. The bottom line is that a finely tuned road-sense is what warns you of some chuffer about to do the dirty and close a gap that you were relying on - and that only comes with experience.

[wheelnut]

If Im filtering on a motorway due to an accident or a lane closure. I will rely on my fellow truck drivers as (whatever you believe) we do spend more time looking in our mirrors than drivers of cars. Truck drivers will normally stay in the lane they are in, the ones that don't are normally the recently qualified drivers. As a rule, the inside lane will always be moving faster than the others because we try to keep rolling, slower maybe but not stop start.

In town, I will take as much of the road as I can by slowly zigzagging to look bigger in a drivers mirror, sometimes this works, If not I just keep the revs up and slip the clutch a bit. A pair of Akropovics on a V Twin does the rest:riding:

[muffles]

If anything, I wonder if you were too far out.

I aim to be quite close to the cars I'm passing, if only to ensure that I'm not in their blind spot and can be seen in their wing mirrors. It also helps, heaven forbid, that if they do pull out, the impact is minimal compared to being further out when you risk t-boning the car that pulled out rather than just scraping its side. Of course the further out you are, the higher the risk of affecting, or being affected by oncoming traffic. I speak from experience - this isn't good.

There's no question that filtering in stationary traffic is the most dangerous - drivers rarely check their blindspots in this situation - and certainly not before their front wheels have turned and they've poked the nose of their vehicle out a bit. However, in flowing traffic, they're almost obliged to check mirrors and look over shoulders.

Finally, if I'm filtering I'm always looking at the 3 or 4 cars that I'm about to pass ahead of me. The bottom line is that a finely tuned road-sense is what warns you of some chuffer about to do the dirty and close a gap that you were relying on - and that only comes with experience.

I see what you're saying about riding close but that sounds like damage reduction rather than accident avoidance. Prevention is better than cure! Etc etc. If someone turns out on you and you are right on their rear quarter you have hardly any time to react. The further you are out, the more time you have to react.

[Mr Speirs]

As a rule, the inside lane will always be moving faster than the others because we try to keep rolling, slower maybe but not stop start.

+1 for that

Once drove from Lands End to Northampton and met a 25mile traffic jam on the M5. Never stopped once. Learnt from the drive down that as soon as I came across a jam I get into the lane 1 and pootle along nicely behind a lorry. So much nicer than the start stopping you find in 2+3.

[Ceri JC]

If Im filtering on a motorway due to an accident or a lane closure. I will rely on my fellow truck drivers as (whatever you believe) we do spend more time looking in our mirrors than drivers of cars. Truck drivers will normally stay in the lane they are in, the ones that don't are normally the recently qualified drivers. As a rule, the inside lane will always be moving faster than the others because we try to keep rolling, slower maybe but not stop start.

+1. In spite of their increased width, give me a line of lorries to filter between over a line of cars any day. Lorry drivers check their mirrors vastly more frequently than your typical car driver and I dare say a fair bit more frequently than many bikers.

[BillyC]

I see what you're saying about riding close but that sounds like damage reduction rather than accident avoidance. Prevention is better than cure! Etc etc. If someone turns out on you and you are right on their rear quarter you have hardly any time to react. The further you are out, the more time you have to react.

I see what you're saying, but being visible is one of the biggest preventative measures in my opinion.

If you appear in the wing mirror, then the driver is less likely to do a rapid pull out... and if they do, you've hit them at a relatively slower speed than you would have otherwise done - and your velocities will be in largely similar directions, than if you were further out.

The oblique angle also gives you a greater visibility of what the front wheels are doing on the vehichles.

I'm not preaching, I'm just saying that it's worked for me so far.

[muffles]

I see what you're saying, but being visible is one of the biggest preventative measures in my opinion.

If you appear in the wing mirror, then the driver is less likely to do a rapid pull out... and if they do, you've hit them at a relatively slower speed than you would have otherwise done - and your velocities will be in largely similar directions, than if you were further out.

The oblique angle also gives you a greater visibility of what the front wheels are doing on the vehichles.

I'm not preaching, I'm just saying that it's worked for me so far.

Yep, fair enough, it does make sense, the only reason I couldn't do it is I don't get on with not being in control :) I need to know I am the one deciding what's going to happen rather than relying on a driver seeing me (even if it's a fairly reliable method).

[Stu]

Does that mean it is legal to filter past stationary/very slow traffic on a motorway on the right hand side of the third lane?
My reasoning for thinking about this would be to avoid blind lane changers taking me out.

Hovis answered, but just to elaborate, I wouldn't either. Between 2 & 3 gives you more room and is more expected by car drivers than the outside of 3.
I wouldn't consider the outside of 3 to be any more legal because either method is creating your own lane (that doesn't exist)

Otherwise in the Thread, I pretty much agree with everything Muffles has said, as long as he advocates keeping away from junctions and other hazards on your right hand side.

[Stu]

Just to add, if you are far enough out from cars you are overtaking IME you can either stop in the distance you can see to be clear, or if a car U turns in front of you in less than your stopping distance, you can accelerate and get in front of the car instead.

[Sid Squid]

Re; OP's question. The situations in which you might filter are so variable as to make it impossible to specify a suitable distance, which I think would be somewhat prescriptive.

[Stu]

Re; OP's question. The situations in which you might filter are so variable as to make it impossible to specify a suitable distance, which I think would be somewhat prescriptive.
Surely the simple answer is the appropriate distance from the hazards on each side of you relative to the severity of each hazard. :confused:

[muffles]

Otherwise in the Thread, I pretty much agree with everything Muffles has said, as long as he advocates keeping away from junctions and other hazards on your right hand side.

Yep, I'm actually a little bit more wary of junctions/hazards on the right hand side as I figure road users probably don't expect vehicles travelling on the wrong side of the road, so even less chance of them looking. In practice I probably stay equally as far rather than more to the left, so I can treat neither of them as having seen me :D

[muffles]

Surely the simple answer is the appropriate distance from the hazards on each side of you relative to the severity of each hazard. :confused:

I think that's how I'd describe it too, I guess he's saying some people might expect a hard and fast figure (2 metres +- 20cm and at an angle of no less than 85 degrees to the horizontal of the car as viewed from above) lol...

[neillfergie]

http://www.youtube.com/user/advancedbiker :riding:

looks boring at first glance but there is some good stuff on there

+ look haw well behaved everyone is when your on a white bike in high vis clothing.:smt067