ID Cards

[gettin2dizzy]

Can anyone see the point of them? Would anyone accept it?

I hope any airport workers on here will refuse them outright.

I will NEVER carry one, nor have any biometric data taken out of principle

Link (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/2309749/Jacqui-Smith-warned-by-first-group-to-be-given-ID-cards-that-they-will-not-improve-security.html)

[G]

If it becomes a requirement to carry one then you wont really have a choice.

Not really got an opinion on them other than they cost way to much, and for that reason alone I think the idea that has already cost millions should be scrapped.

[gettin2dizzy]

If it becomes a requirement to carry one then you wont really have a choice.

Not really got an opinion on them other than they cost way to much, and for that reason alone I think the idea that has already cost millions should be scrapped.
?18 billion is the current estimate. But they'll make that back selling our details to third parties ;) (if they don't just 'find' it all on a laptop left on a train first)

I can not see why they would even slightly help. It's up to the British public to refuse to pay for this additional erosion to our liberties. I certainly won't carry one/give my details. I'll burn my fingerprints off if need be :rolleyes:

[G]

There is plans for a retinal scan aswell, you gonna burns your eyeballs as well.

[gettin2dizzy]

There is plans for a retinal scan aswell, you gonna burns your eyeballs as well.
They'd have to hold my cold dead body up to the machine ;)

[Filipe M.]

ID cards are not so bad, if done the right way (i.e., without throwing your civil liberties out the window).
We have compulsory ID cards with name, fingerprints (right index finger), parents names, date and place of birth, marital status and residence (only town name, not street / house number).

Can't really see a big problem with it, but I do see a shedload of advantages.

[hovis]

They'd have to hold my cold dead body up to the machine ;)

that can be aranged:smt066

[G]

Can't really see a big problem with it, but I do see a shedload of advantages.

Apart from the £20bn+ cost I assume.

[Filipe M.]

Apart from the £20bn+ cost I assume.

Guess I overlooked that one ;)

[gettin2dizzy]

ID cards are not so bad, if done the right way (i.e., without throwing your civil liberties out the window).
We have compulsory ID cards with name, fingerprints (right index finger), parents names, date and place of birth, marital status and residence (only town name, not street / house number).

Can't really see a big problem with it, but I do see a shedload of advantages.
What advantages? I can't see a single one.

As for civil liberties it just opens the door to abuse, and this government hardly has a good track record. I would bet everything I own on these cards being used to gather data dishonestly & covertly.


that can be aranged:smt066
I wouldn't want to jump in the queue before you ;)

[dissuade]

I don't mind them. I have always carried one. In Germany it is compulsory to carry your ID card. The data on them is not biometric, with the eye scan/fingerprint and all that jazz, but they do record height/eye colour and so on.

I think it's a good idea to carry them, means that everyone can identify themselves at all times (40 euros if you don't have it on you). In England it is just all too easy to use the cop out of not having a driving license, and thus the police have no real idea who you are.

It's also really handy if you are travelling. I haven't had a passport in years. If I travel inside the EU there is no point in me having a passport. The card is cheaper to produce, and a large proportion of English folk won't need full passports anyway because they won't travel outside the UK/Europe.

I have no objections to carrying a card in the UK, so long as the information contained on it is used wisely (ie, not left on public transport). In Germany it works well. Then again, I would think it's great, I'm part of a population that was repressed/locked up for the best part of half a century and where the government is pretty good at "people control" - Carrying a card is not really the issue here.

[keithd]

can anybody tell me how it will be an advantage to me, mr joe average? how will it make my life easier?

ok when i say average, i'm not really average...

[Filipe M.]

I think it's a good idea to carry them, means that everyone can identify themselves at all times (40 euros if you don't have it on you). In England it is just all too easy to use the cop out of not having a driving license, and thus the police have no real idea who you are.

It's also really handy if you are travelling. I haven't had a passport in years. If I travel inside the EU there is no point in me having a passport. The card is cheaper to produce, and a large proportion of English folk won't need full passports anyway because they won't travel outside the UK/Europe.

I have no objections to carrying a card in the UK, so long as the information contained on it is used wisely (ie, not left on public transport).

+1.

[SoulKiss]

What advantages? I can't see a single one.

As for civil liberties it just opens the door to abuse, and this government hardly has a good track record. I would bet everything I own on these cards being used to gather data dishonestly & covertly.



I wouldn't want to jump in the queue before you ;)

Just remember there is no technology that they will use that is not vulnerable to a powerful magnet/and or 5 secs in the microwave.....

[timwilky]

They serve no purpose what so ever. It is yet another of Blairs bad ideas. A few businesses up here have been done for illegals in the curry factories etc. An ID card would not stop it as their employers know they are illegal.

They then say it is for entitlement. for things such as NHS service. Does that mean I won't get treated at my local hospital if I don't produce one. Of course not.

I could understand if there was one card that replaced your driving licence, passport etc. I am not a convicted criminal, so why should I give finger prints to anyone.

[embee]

.........
Can't really see a big problem with it, but I do see a shedload of advantages.

I think most folks don't really object in principle to having some sort of ID, we have driving licences etc anyway. I'd be happy to have a simple ID card which cost a fiver. But it's not being done for the benefit of the individual.

What is different here is that the system the UK govt is going for is a mega data-base with everything you could imagine on it. Problems with this start when you consider
a) the cost - double it and add a nought and you're getting close - we're paying gazillions for the system and then a huge amount for the card itself (what does a passport cost these days??)
b) the Govt track record of screwing IT projects up
c) the Govt track record of losing data
d) the potential for linking it to other systems - big brother
e) the potential for causing individuals untold grief when they get the data wrong and you get branded with incorrect criminal records etc etc. I bet it will be a nightmare/impossible to get errors corrected

We simply can't trust the Govt, full stop. It won't actually achieve much.

(PS - my cousin was recounting the tale of woe he is currently undergoing regarding dealing with a pension tax credit application, just unbelievable...............brewery, pi$$-up?? no chance....)

[simesb]

I think most folks don't really object in principle to having some sort of ID,

Why do you need ID for walking down the street? Permissions to use certain equipment (driving licenses) are a completely different matter.

[gettin2dizzy]

Having a huge database of personal data, accessible by government agencies everywhere will be so open to abuse. You'll create a huge trail of data of every transaction made in your life, every move you make and human you interacted with.

So what benefit will we have?
Less identity fraud? ...no
Identity fraud will go through the roof as data theft will be available in so many places and this card is adopted as a single measure of identity.
Reduced terrorism?...
How would they have stopped a single attack? All they could do is incriminate yourself by being 'linked' to a person through your own data trail on file.

All that would happen is it would expand the totalitarian nature of this shambles of a government. Stopchecks in the street to produce your card- or be fined. A blackmarket of ID cards bringing in more illegals and creating a market for ID card mugging. Unfair prosecution based solely on data. God forbid you lose your card and can't prove your identity!

All this on top of paying through your teeth for these 'privileges'



Dissuade; Germany's cards aren't quite comparable. They're not stored centrally (under law) and they don't link the data obtained up. I wouldn't be happy with that either however.

[gettin2dizzy]

a) the cost - double it and add a nought and you're getting close - we're paying gazillions for the system and then a huge amount for the card itself (what does a passport cost these days??)
£78 for a passport. The cost is predicted to be £20billion but the government haven't announced a ceiling. They'll, sorry we'll pay whatever it takes.
b) the Govt track record of screwing IT projects up
And this is on an unparalleled scale.
c) the Govt track record of losing data
d) the potential for linking it to other systems - big brother
It's not even 'potential'. This is the basis of the whole proposal.
e) the potential for causing individuals untold grief when they get the data wrong and you get branded with incorrect criminal records etc etc. I bet it will be a nightmare/impossible to get errors corrected

We simply can't trust the Govt, full stop. It won't actually achieve much.

The data is already being collected covertly. You apply for a passport - you give them these details that they'll store until the ID Cards introduction.

[Filipe M.]

What is different here is that the system the UK govt is going for is a mega data-base with everything you could imagine on it. Problems with this start when you consider
a) the cost - double it and add a nought and you're getting close - we're paying gazillions for the system and then a huge amount for the card itself (what does a passport cost these days??)
b) the Govt track record of screwing IT projects up
c) the Govt track record of losing data
d) the potential for linking it to other systems - big brother
e) the potential for causing individuals untold grief when they get the data wrong and you get branded with incorrect criminal records etc etc. I bet it will be a nightmare/impossible to get errors corrected

We simply can't trust the Govt, full stop. It won't actually achieve much.


But this is exactly why I first stated that if done right, without affecting civil liberties, could actually be an advantage. Not like that, of course.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

But this is exactly why I first stated that if done right, without affecting civil liberties, could actually be an advantage. Not like that, of course.

Yes in the same way communism done right could be an advantage.

[Filipe M.]

Yes in the same way communism done right could be an advantage.

Communism done right would be the perfect political doctrine (if you could take people out of the equation) :lol:

[stewie]

Communism done right would be the perfect political doctrine (if you could take people out of the equation) :lol:
Everyones equal, just some people are more equal than others ;)

[neio79]

I really cant see the issue people have with ID cards. I think they are a good idea, just an extension of your Passport. How long before that has biometric data on it, would you refuse that then out of principle??

Oh and how many of you carry ID cards in one form or another to get into work or other places .I am willing to bet 99% of you. So what makes these so different?

[Filipe M.]

I really cant see the issue people have with ID cards. I think they are a good idea, just an extension of your Passport. How long before that has biometric data on it, would you refuse that then out of principle??

Oh and how many of you carry ID cards in one form or another to get into work or other places .I am willing to bet 99% of you. So what makes these so different?

:shock:

I need to go lie down for a while...

[simesb]

I really cant see the issue people have with ID cards. I think they are a good idea, just an extension of your Passport. How long before that has biometric data on it, would you refuse that then out of principle??

Oh and how many of you carry ID cards in one form or another to get into work or other places .I am willing to bet 99% of you. So what makes these so different?

Apathy like that is exactly what the government is counting on. :???:

[neio79]

Apathy like that is exactly what the government is counting on. :???:
Its not apathy, I have one for my Military ID and it has some personal details on it, blood group etc. SO what is the big leap from your passsport having biometrics cos they will in due time and carrryng an ID card.

to me the people who are objecting are beein bloody minded and obstenant for th sake of it cos the Government has told them they must have one they are refusing!!

f**king grow up!!!

[timwilky]

Oh neio, you know how to provoke am argument don't you.

The people of Britain have told the government they don't need them, they don't want the expense, they don't want the bureaucracy and most of all the don't want the compulsion.

Nobody but the government can see a purpose/use/advantage to an ID card. But typical of the government we have. do they listen. Do they hell. If they did try to make them compulsory and force the tax paying public to buy them, there would be more marchers than against Maggies community charge.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Its not apathy, I have one for my Military ID and it has some personal details on it, blood group etc. SO what is the big leap from your passsport having biometrics cos they will in due time and carrryng an ID card.

to me the people who are objecting are beein bloody minded and obstenant for th sake of it cos the Government has told them they must have one they are refusing!!

f**king grow up!!!

Your military ID was volentary for a start. But anyway, the information if contains is limited, and that limited information is restricted to a limited number of people.

ID cards will contain everything, and will available to all government departments - hundreds of thosands of people. Within 3 months it'll be left on a park bench and then limitless information will be available to anyone.

And before you say "so what", think of the hastle that can happen if your number plate gets cloned, then multiply it by 50.

[keithd]

from what i've heard/read/made up, all the information on your I.D card will be passed on to a thrid party. basically the highest bidder.

is that what you want? im not so sure......

[SoulKiss]

Your military ID was volentary for a start. But anyway, the information if contains is limited, and that limited information is restricted to a limited number of people.

ID cards will contain everything, and will available to all government departments - hundreds of thosands of people. Within 3 months it'll be left on a park bench and then limitless information will be available to anyone.

And before you say "so what", think of the hastle that can happen if your number plate gets cloned, then multiply it by 50.

+1 - I was in an O2 shop doing an upgrade the other week and they had an acceptable ID form posted to the wall - the guy went to the stockroom to get the phone (A Samsung SGH-F480 Tocco - not an idiotPhone) and I was bored so I read it.

They can take a photocopy of my credit card, of my driving license, but they are not allowed to copy a Forces ID card

So your card is better protected by Law than the common or garden public ID card would be.

I can see a LOT of pluses to an ID card, including it being a way to get a grip on the immigration problem, but I dont trust the current government with anything at all, every new thing that thay have brought in have been aimed at reducing freedom and increasing their control.

Still I guess you have been trained to listen and obey when someone gives an order Neio..............

[neio79]

Oh neio, you know how to provoke am argument don't you.

.

:D;) yep!!!

Your military ID was volentary for a start. But anyway, the information if contains is limited, and that limited information is restricted to a limited number of people.

.

yes you are right , but ours can also be left on a bench and cause a hassle if found and used for the wrong reasons.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

:D;) yep!!!



yes you are right , but ours can also be left on a bench and cause a hassle if found and used for the wrong reasons.

But that's your card, your responsibility and you're the one that'll suffer if it gets lost.

With ID cards, when the information gets lost, which it will, millions of people will suffer and it wont be the people whos responsbility to look after that data that'll suffer.

In fact, if we're forced to have ID cards, I hope someone with the ability makes it their mission to corrupt the data of every minister (and their families) responsible - and I hope it makes their lives a missery.

[simesb]

There is no correlation between cards issued to the Forces and those foisted upon citizens. Obfuscating the argument like that is one of the techniques used by the government when they tell us they are a good idea.

[neio79]

But that's your card, your responsibility and you're the one that'll suffer if it gets lost.

With ID cards, when the information gets lost, which it will, millions of people will suffer and it wont be the people whos responsbility to look after that data that'll suffer.

In fact, if we're forced to have ID cards, I hope someone with the ability makes it their mission to corrupt the data of every minister (and their families) responsible - and I hope it makes their lives a missery.


maybe i a mmissing something here, but if you had an ID card and lost it then its also your responsability and only you who will suffer as well, only your data is on it.

you losing your ID card wont effect me will it , any more than me losing mine wil effect you.

[gettin2dizzy]

yes you are right , but ours can also be left on a bench and cause a hassle if found and used for the wrong reasons.
We're talking about a database logging every personal physical detail linked with your address, your tax records, your bank statements, your movements, habits, mobile phone records, internet browsing history, associates....

A database on this scale has never been attempted before, it's a huge feat! Every large database created so far shirinks in comparison (such as the NHS 'attempt') has run iN to billions over budget early on and failed miserably.

There is no way this could ever ever be made safely or would present any advantage to the working man. All this will do is enable easier identity theft for crooks and allow the government to ruthlessly spy on you. Can you imagine being prosecuted electronically?! A database providing the sole evidence against you!

And as for how this would help against illegal immigration I have no idea how. If we were really interested in stopping it we could cut it a huge number of ways practically overnight. We're an island nation ffs!

[Flamin_Squirrel]

maybe i a mmissing something here, but if you had an ID card and lost it then its also your responsability and only you who will suffer as well, only your data is on it.

you losing your ID card wont effect me will it , any more than me losing mine wil effect you.

When I talk about losing ID information, I'm not talking about the card its self, (which I'm sure would be another unnecessary problem created by being forced to have them), I'm talking about the central database where all the information on everyone is held.

If that gets compromised, which it inevitably would, it would be a disaster.

[neio79]

When I talk about losing ID information, I'm not talking about the card its self, (which I'm sure would be another unnecessary problem created by being forced to have them), I'm talking about the central database where all the information on everyone is held.

If that gets compromised, which it inevitably would, it would be a disaster.
Yes of course it would be, but no more than if the Passport agency lost all its data, that hasent happend (yet)

[embee]

The big questions are as yet unanswered, like what will the "authorities" use the card for, at what point will it become necessary to have a card (even if it's not technically compulsory) in order to be able to do certain things, "no card...no can do", if the card says "no" will you be prevented from doing certain things, or even be detained for 42days without charge? Maybe not a problem for me, white middle aged etc, but I wouldn't want to be of the tinted persuasion once the system is up and running (no offence to anyone, on your side here, just a turn of phrase for literary effect)

People stopped in vehicles by ANPR gestapo because the database says there's no insurance get the car confiscated, end of, even when the dbase is wrong. You have to prove you are innocent, guilt is "proven" by virtue of the dbase .....and this is happening now. Just wait till the ID card is in force, it won't be your car whisked off, it'll be you...........

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Yes of course it would be, but no more than if the Passport agency lost all its data, that hasent happend (yet)

Not the same at all. We're talking about a card that will be used to track your daily movements - passports don't do that.

Once criminals clone ID cards, they could start claming benefits, running up council tax bills and doing god knows else what in your name.

And I'm sure you're well aware that once a government body has it in their head that you've done/not done something, getting to change their mind is next to impossible - so you'll be lucky if you ever clear your name.

[simesb]

The big questions are as yet unanswered, like what will the "authorities" use the card for, at what point will it become necessary to have a card (even if it's not technically compulsory) in order to be able to do certain things, "no card...no can do", if the card says "no" will you be prevented from doing certain things, or even be detained for 42days without charge? Maybe not a problem for me, white middle aged etc, but I wouldn't want to be of the tinted persuasion once the system is up and running (no offence to anyone, on your side here, just a turn of phrase for literary effect)

People stopped in vehicles by ANPR gestapo because the database says there's no insurance get the car confiscated, end of, even when the dbase is wrong. You have to prove you are innocent, guilt is "proven" by virtue of the dbase .....and this is happening now. Just wait till the ID card is in force, it won't be your car whisked off, it'll be you...........

+1, but I think you are missing the fundamental point - why do we need them in the first place? I wish somebody could provide a convincing argument, then I may change my mind....

[CoolGirl]

+1, but I think you are missing the fundamental point - why do we need them in the first place?

As a fairly senior civil servant, I'm pretty convinced that all the feedback we get from the public saying "why do we have to keep filling in forms with all our personal details in order to access different public services" presents a pretty good argument. And as former benefit claimant, student and parent, I'd support that as well.

No-one's asking for your bank balance, drinking habits, shoe size etc., just the things that help us dleiver services to you quicker. You can't have it both ways.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

As a fairly senior civil servant, I'm pretty convinced that all the feedback we get from the public saying "why do we have to keep filling in forms with all our personal details in order to access different public services" presents a pretty good argument. And as former benefit claimant, student and parent, I'd support that as well.

No-one's asking for your bank balance, drinking habits, shoe size etc., just the things that help us dleiver services to you quicker. You can't have it both ways.

I don't believe for a second that public services are slowed down due to a lack of information. In fact, it's probably due to the fact you've already got too much.

[CoolGirl]

I don't believe for a second that public services are slowed down due to a lack of information. In fact, it's probably due to the fact you've already got too much.

no, you've misread me there - it's the public that are asking to not have the duplication of paperwork.

It's also the public, that are holding us back from efficient data-sharing because they've been whipped up by the media to become paranoid about data loss. i expect similar mistakes have always been made, and no-one made such a fuss before. (and nothing bad happened.) That's not to say it's OK, and we need to do better.

like I said, you can't have it both ways.

[Woz]

We're talking about a card that will be used to track your daily movements - passports don't do that.


How exactly could a plastic card be used to track your movements?

[Wayluya]

The question is really "why does the Govt want to put everyone on the Sex Offenders database?"

To be honest I am not worried about Big Brother knowing too much about me, I am comfortable in relying on Govt incompetence in not being able to round me up. The the story may be different for others in future years.

What scares me sh#tless is knowing how f#cked up the databases become even when "right" and coupled with "computer says XXX" = MUST BE TRUE and an operator with no discretion to use common sense. (and probably no ability to use it anyway) means joe public will have to defacto prove innocence.

CCTV cameras in the home? Most murders and kiddie fiddling happens in the home.........Secrecy or Privacy?

It's not all bad news, if the ID cards do come in.......am defo getting into the ID theft bizness. It will be like issuing free Gold coins :sunny: It would almost be rude not to.

[northwind]

How exactly could a plastic card be used to track your movements?

arr eff eye dee. The card is just a place to keep the chip.

The big questions are as yet unanswered, like what will the "authorities" use the card for, at what point will it become necessary to have a card (even if it's not technically compulsory) in order to be able to do certain things, "no card...no can do", if the card says "no" will you be prevented from doing certain things, or even be detained for 42days without charge? Maybe not a problem for me, white middle aged etc, but I wouldn't want to be of the tinted persuasion once the system is up and running (no offence to anyone, on your side here, just a turn of phrase for literary effect)

Embee is right. Let's move on :)

[Flamin_Squirrel]

It's also the public, that are holding us back from efficient data-sharing because they've been whipped up by the media to become paranoid about data loss. i expect similar mistakes have always been made, and no-one made such a fuss before. (and nothing bad happened.) That's not to say it's OK, and we need to do better.

like I said, you can't have it both ways.

How is concern over repeated displays of gross incompetence leading to the wide spread loss of data as 'paranoia'? Paranoia would suggest our fears are baseless, but the government has shown it can't be trusted with the data it has.

The fact that you'd say well nothing bad happened so why would ID cards be any different is utterly astonishing. Firstly because you don't have any idea of what the fallout from previous data loss is, and second because it's clear that you apparently can't even comprehend the impact it could have, as you otherwise wouldn't have made that claim.

We don't want it both ways, we just want the services provided that the government claims it can deliver without cocking things up every 5 mins.

[Filipe M.]

We don't want it both ways, we just want the services provided that the government claims it can deliver without cocking things up every 5 mins.

Then your problem lies with the Government, not with the ID cards per se.

[CoolGirl]

How is concern over repeated displays of gross incompetence leading to the wide spread loss of data as 'paranoia'? Paranoia would suggest our fears are baseless, but the government has shown it can't be trusted with the data it has.

The fact that you'd say well nothing bad happened so why would ID cards be any different is utterly astonishing. Firstly because you don't have any idea of what the fallout from previous data loss is, and second because it's clear that you apparently can't even comprehend the impact it could have, as you otherwise wouldn't have made that claim.

We don't want it both ways, we just want the services provided that the government claims it can deliver without cocking things up every 5 mins.

crikey. let's re-read this, and then dispense some proportion shall we?

Originally Posted by CoolGirl http://forums.sv650.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?p=1574577#post1574577)
It's also the public, that are holding us back from efficient data-sharing because they've been whipped up by the media to become paranoid about data loss. i expect similar mistakes have always been made, and no-one made such a fuss before. (and nothing bad happened.) That's not to say it's OK, and we need to do better.

like I said, you can't have it both ways.


the point that I was referring to, is that we've been prevented from putting together a piece of legislation that will save the taxpayer millions because of all the media hysteria over data. I can't tell you what it is, but it would help stop unnecessary service repeats because certain instiutions can't share a paticular sort of data abut their clients between themselves. Like i said, public services need to do better (my department doesn't actually handle any personal data).

[Biker Biggles]

Whilst data loss and its fallout could be a major problem I think this is fundamentally an issue about how much we trust those in authority generally.Should we be deferential and assume they are a benign lot who will always use the power this information gives them to our advantage and in our best interests,or should we look at them as just a group of human beings who will behave like human beings always do?I think those in powerful positions are no different to the rest of us other than having huge ambition and a bit of a superiority complex.That makes them dangerous and potentially untrustworthy.Information like this is power,and we all know that power corrupts.Nuff said?

[Flamin_Squirrel]

the point that I was referring to, is that we've been prevented from putting together a piece of legislation that will save the taxpayer millions because of all the media hysteria over data.

So did you miss the part about it costing billions of pounds to implement?

[simesb]

that we've been prevented from putting together a piece of legislation that will save the taxpayer millions because of all the media hysteria over data.

Moving slightly off-topic, but since when did the government listen to the voters or the media?

[Ed]

Holy thread resurrection!!!!

Now we know why G2D moved to Manchester. I think he'll be first in the queue.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8035002.stm

[gettin2dizzy]

Hehe.

I love Manchester as much as I love ID cards ;)

[the_lone_wolf]

Hehe.

I love Manchester as much as I love ID cards ;)

you should apply for one under the pseudonym "hugh jva-jina" - tell them you're a 25yo british muslim who opposes the war in afghanistan and they'll be all over you;)

[madness]

I'm not up on all this I/D card malarkey, and haven't read the rest of the thread, but I seem to recall hearing that people with I/D cards will be able to use the card in place of a passport to travel within the EU. Come to think of it, how many of us have passports?, which are basically bulky I/D cards anyway. So what are people moaning about?

[the_lone_wolf]

So what are people moaning about?

Come to think of it, how many of us have passports?, which are basically bulky I/D cards anyway.

Quod Erat Demonstradum...:rolleyes:

[madness]

Quod Erat Demonstradum...:rolleyes:

Sorry, my Latin is a bit rusty! ;)

[Biker Biggles]

Whilst data loss and its fallout could be a major problem I think this is fundamentally an issue about how much we trust those in authority generally.Should we be deferential and assume they are a benign lot who will always use the power this information gives them to our advantage and in our best interests,or should we look at them as just a group of human beings who will behave like human beings always do?I think those in powerful positions are no different to the rest of us other than having huge ambition and a bit of a superiority complex.That makes them dangerous and potentially untrustworthy.Information like this is power,and we all know that power corrupts.Nuff said?

Thats what I thought last year and nothing has happened since to make me have any more confidence in the powerful.In fact the last years events have just reinforced my view that we are led by a class of morons who will do anything to maintain their powerful positions,as they would be screwed trying to do real jobs.

[-Ralph-]

Not opposed to ID cards in the same format as they have them in the rest of Europe, my son has one already, he's dual nationality, as does my wife, it just a passport, but I'm opposed to recording of everyone's biometrics.

Fingerprints kept on record is the domain of criminals, everyone else should have thier privacy respected!

How long before the first miscarriage of justice because an innocent person happened to leave a fingerprint in a place where a crime was later committed?

It's not necessary for the goverment to collect such data to implement ID cards. George Orwell's fiction, here we come.....

[Baph]

Should anyone in Manchester know anyone that gets one of these ID cards, please, PM me & I'll tell you where to post it.

I'd love to play with one.

Re-write it with Jaqui Smith's details & post it to her perhaps, as a demonstration as to the security they'll bring? :D

[simesb]

Re-write it with Jaqui Smith's details & post it to her perhaps, as a demonstration as to the security they'll bring? :D

They'll just arrest you on terrorism charges - they don't understand you see. :smt068

Already been done with Elvis (http://www.inquisitr.com/4410/elvis-passport/)

[Baph]

They'll just arrest you on terrorism charges - they don't understand you see. :smt068

Already been done with Elvis (http://www.inquisitr.com/4410/elvis-passport/)

No, the Elvis thing was a passport, not an ID card. :)

I'd love to see them arrest someone for posting something to Jaqui Smith. She'll have a public address as part of her job. The last I knew of it, Royal Mail didn't track senders at all... :)

[simesb]

No, the Elvis thing was a passport, not an ID card. :)

I am aware of that but it is a similar point - technology the government(s) assures us is secure and for our security actually shown not to be (they seem to need empirical proof because the opinion of experts they aren't paying is much less worthwhile than that of the companies selling them the technology)

[timwilky]

The good people of Manchester are not daft with their money, they know these things will be obsolete next year when Brown gets evicted, so I forecast bugger all sales of the government ID tax

[mjc]

They'd have to hold my cold dead body up to the machine ;)

i like your style son :smt067

[couldnt work out how to do 2 quotes]
filipe m :"ID cards are not so bad, if done the right way (i.e., without throwing your civil liberties out the window)."

how likely do you reckon that is?

:rant::rant::rant::rant::rant::rant::rant::rant::r ant::rant::rant:

[the_lone_wolf]

Slightly related, on the subject of DNA databases, anyone listen to R4 this morning?

They had some police chief on the programme who managed to say, twice:

"People who are arrested and then released without charge are more likely to go on and re-offend"

Even after it was explained in small words the moron said it again - and these are the people in charge of policing the nation:rolleyes:

:smt043

[SoulKiss]

An example of how I would do an ID card.....

Data present on the card.

1) Photograph for Identity Purposes.
2) Name.
3) Address
4) Date of Birth.
5) Barcode with Unique ID Number (NI number equivilent).
6) Unique ID number in text.
7) Unique ID number encoded in a mag-strip
8) Unique ID number encoded in a machine readable chip

This is no more information that your Driving License has on it.

The security of the system is provided by a Central Database which has a virtual copy of your ID in it.

If more positive ID is required than just presenting the card, a query is done on the UID, and an image of the card is presented on the checking equipment - which could be ANY smartphone using is a secured connection these days. If the physical and the virtual match then fine - if they dont, then you have a forged physical card, as the physical card would be generated from the virtual image.

No DNA, No Finger Prints and no Personal Information available even if you have access to the scanner/reader equipment.

[Baph]

An example of how I would do an ID card.....

Data present on the card.

1) Photograph for Identity Purposes.
2) Name.
3) Address
4) Date of Birth.
5) Barcode with Unique ID Number (NI number equivilent).
6) Unique ID number in text.
7) Unique ID number encoded in a mag-strip
8) Unique ID number encoded in a machine readable chip

This is no more information that your Driving License has on it.

The security of the system is provided by a Central Database which has a virtual copy of your ID in it.

If more positive ID is required than just presenting the card, a query is done on the UID, and an image of the card is presented on the checking equipment - which could be ANY smartphone using is a secured connection these days. If the physical and the virtual match then fine - if they dont, then you have a forged physical card, as the physical card would be generated from the virtual image.

No DNA, No Finger Prints and no Personal Information available even if you have access to the scanner/reader equipment.

My gym membership card is very similar to the above. Only it relies almost solely on a barcode. Scan the barcode & a photo of my ugly mug comes up on the computer (not the picture to the left of this post though!). If the picture looks like me, I can use the gym. If it doesn't, I can't.

I don't see why the government feel the need to over complicate things. Why not just add a barcode to the driving licence & use that without taking extra data?

[SoulKiss]

My gym membership card is very similar to the above. Only it relies almost solely on a barcode. Scan the barcode & a photo of my ugly mug comes up on the computer (not the picture to the left of this post though!). If the picture looks like me, I can use the gym. If it doesn't, I can't.

I don't see why the government feel the need to over complicate things. Why not just add a barcode to the driving licence & use that without taking extra data?

My system allows for trivial check without the use of electronics - so places that would accept a Driving Licence would not need the cross-check - again keeping
it simple.

Speaking of Driving Licenses, this card would also work as such, with people who need to know about entitlement etc, being able to look your record up online using the UID

[yorkie_chris]

Because the DVLA would lose your categories and would think that you were only allowed to drive an HGV to Bratislava on every second Wednesday afternoon rather than ride your bike to work?

[timwilky]

Would it not be cheaper/easier/simpler to tattoo a unique identification number on everyone.

I would suggest on the forehead so it is obvious who has not got one and you cannot get away with hacking your head off unlike your arm to disguise your identity

At death your head would be sent to government department who would then verify the number and remove you from the database.

simples

[ophic]

Fingerprints kept on record is the domain of criminals, everyone else should have thier privacy respected!
Unfortunately this isn't true anymore. Anyone who is arrested has to provide their fingerprints and a DNA sample. Being arrested on suspicion of something does not make you a criminal.

[skidmarx]

There is a huge difference between having/asking for/being compelled to hold an ID card for gym membership driving a car joining the army whatever, and having to hold one to EXIST! This is a fundamental erosion of our human rights foisted upon us by a transitory goverment who should be answerable to US not us to THEM. Your personal data is yours to control and it is not within anybody else's right to demand unless a law has been broken or it seems reasonable to assume that one is about to be broken. Aren't we all still innocent until proven guilty? I'm not sure I want to live in a state that assumes otherwise. As for nefarious reasons for wanting the data and the security of it....well it'll be linked to your nectar card before you know it! Anybody remember the case of the Inland revenue who prosecuted somebody because his claimed income was below what they could show he was spending at a supermarket? Not for me.... nooooooo waaaayy...

[mjc]

There is a huge difference between having/asking for/being compelled to hold an ID card for gym membership driving a car joining the army whatever, and having to hold one to EXIST! This is a fundamental erosion of our human rights foisted upon us by a transitory goverment who should be answerable to US not us to THEM. Your personal data is yours to control and it is not within anybody else's right to demand unless a law has been broken or it seems reasonable to assume that one is about to be broken. Aren't we all still innocent until proven guilty? I'm not sure I want to live in a state that assumes otherwise. As for nefarious reasons for wanting the data and the security of it....well it'll be linked to your nectar card before you know it! Anybody remember the case of the Inland revenue who prosecuted somebody because his claimed income was below what they could show he was spending at a supermarket? Not for me.... nooooooo waaaayy...

:winner:

[gettin2dizzy]

Here's some numbers for you to ponder over, to see how fear and politics are so closely intertwined:

Deaths - Swine Flu - 31 (World total)
Deaths - July 7th attacks - 51 (Total)
Deaths - Drugs - 400 (UK Annual)
Deaths - Violence - 500 (UK Annual)
Deaths - Traffic - 3500 (UK Annual)
Deaths - Alcohol - 9000 (UK Annual)
Deaths - Normal Flu - 11,000 (UK Annual)
Deaths - Civlians in Iraq - 90,000 (2003-present)
Deaths - Smoking - 115,000 (UK Annual)
Cost of ID Cards - 5,300,000,000 (£)

[SoulKiss]

As for nefarious reasons for wanting the data and the security of it....well it'll be linked to your nectar card before you know it! Anybody remember the case of the Inland revenue who prosecuted somebody because his claimed income was below what they could show he was spending at a supermarket? Not for me.... nooooooo waaaayy...

Ok so I can see your point and I agree to a large degree, but in the end the scrote in question WAS stealing from you and me.

One of the reasons I dont have a Nectar card and none of my Oyster Cards are registered.

[Viney]

Can anyone see the point of them? Would anyone accept it?

I hope any airport workers on here will refuse them outright.

I will NEVER carry one, nor have any biometric data taken out of principle

Link (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/2309749/Jacqui-Smith-warned-by-first-group-to-be-given-ID-cards-that-they-will-not-improve-security.html)Nothing to hide, so no reason not to carry one at all. What i do object to is the fact that we have to pay for it!! If it replaced the need for a passport, driving licence, oystercard, then it would seem good value for money, but thats not going to happen.

...think that you were only allowed to drive an HGV to Bratislava on every second Wednesday afternoon rather than ride your bike to work?
Beats working for a living!

[gettin2dizzy]

Nothing to hide, so no reason not to carry one at all. What i do object to is the fact that we have to pay for it!! If it replaced the need for a passport, driving licence, oystercard, then it would seem good value for money, but thats not going to happen.
'Nothing to hide' doesn't count when you have a government who insists on bringing in new laws without any consent.

It's all about it being a slippery slope from which we can't return.

[skidmarx]

Ok so I can see your point and I agree to a large degree, but in the end the scrote in question WAS stealing from you and me.

One of the reasons I dont have a Nectar card and none of my Oyster Cards are registered.

Indeed he was stealing from you and me and all of us. But the way to deal with these kinds of problems is NOT for all us to be held under scrutiny on the assumption that we're all guilty! I'm not sure what you do, but let's not start by eroding all our civil liberties, but rather start by protecting what we've left?

[Spiderman]

My photo driving licence provides all the info a cop could want of me if he stopped me, so why do we need another card to do the same thing.

Surley the whole point of an ID card is ONLY to prove your ID, not to give you access to this or that service. they have far too many databases holding far too much info on all of us and all the Govt have proved so far is that they are very capable of loosing lots of this data or not keeping it very secure.

All this other nonsense that it'll reuce crime and terrorism is just that, utter nonsense. Just cos some crack head has an ID card means he's not going to go out and burgle someone cos he needs another fix. Yeh right pull the ohter one.

Just a way to keep track of each and every one of us....just like they can with our mobile phones. But you know what, we all have a choice over weather to own a phone or not or to carry it. These b'stards want us to HAVE NO CHOICE is the point here.

They tried to sell it by saying it wont be complusory but then moved the goal post to say that it will be compulsory to have all that info on our passports together with an RFID chip too. :roll:

The buggers have my fingerprints and DNA on their databases somewhere cos i called the cops to an RTA but the woman who had run into my car turned on the waterworks and i got nicked for "alledged criminal damage"!!!
Went all the way to court when the CPS stood up and said "we wish to withdraw the case as we have no evidence to offer". So i'm not a crim yet they hold my details cos they say i'm more likely to re-offend? WTF i didnt "offend" in the fist place. :roll:

[timwilky]

spidey, don't worry, they say they will now remove your details in 6 years time if you don't re-allegedly offend.

[Spiderman]

i know, heard it on the news today. Aint they kind to me bless them.

You'd think a top lever super duper crime fighter type fella like me would be immune to this kind of red tape but i think somone in power is arachnopobic or something.

[SoulKiss]

My photo driving licence provides all the info a cop could want of me if he stopped me, so why do we need another card to do the same thing.


Which is why I suggested MY ID Card would be a replacement for it, backed up with provision for authentication via contacting the database.

[Ed]

The whole thing stinks. I'll be with G2D in the mortuary.

[simesb]

Nothing to hide, so no reason not to carry one at all.

So presumably you are happy for the government to install a camera at your expense in your home to make sure you aren't beating your wife? Nothing to hide, right?

An extreme example I know, but where does it end?

[urbane1]

In Canada, everyone that drives has their info on their driving licence (photo included). And most kids from 12 carry photo ID which is te same format as the licence, and then of course they trade them in at 14 for their learners licence!

[yorkie_chris]

An extreme example I know, but where does it end?

In a cliche (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four)

[gettin2dizzy]

I re-read 1984 the other day. It's amazing how many of the subtle points you'd never remember; have already happened. Great book. Great man.

[yorkie_chris]

Also see "state of fear" by Micheal Crighton.

[gettin2dizzy]

Or Aldous Huxley