Diesel car experts?

[the_lone_wolf]

4 wheels and a board... as the song goes

Having an issue with my 53 plate Focus 1.8 TDCi, before i have a mechanic look at it, any advice from people who know their diesels on here?

Basically, when the car starts it fires up just fine but there is an almighty clunk at the moment the engine fires for the first time, not when it's cranking and it cranks just fine, the problem is worse the warmer the car is, when it's cold it doesn't do it, when it's just been stopped for a few minutes the clunk is enough to rock the car a little

Any ideas? Doesn't seem to be affecting the car's ability to start but it's definately getting louder as time goes by...

[gettin2dizzy]

Ouch. How many miles are on the clock?

Got a 53 focus tcdi too :thumbsup:

[the_lone_wolf]

Got a 53 focus tcdi too :thumbsup:

somewhere in the region of 45,000 i would expect, had the cluster replaced a while back so not 100% sure without looking it up in the book

great car otherwise, trucks on just fine and hauled 3 guys and a trailer up to wales and back yesterday, just getting to the age where bits begin to fall off. trouble is, if i replace it, i don't want anything else, i want another one of these:smt050

[G]

Sounds like it would be to do with the starter engaging with the flywheel (or even disengaging), most likely thing to cause that noise would be the spinning bit that fires out of the starter motors getting stuck then clunking as it fly’s either out or back in or when it makes contact that it shouldn’t with the fly wheel.

My old Laguna diesel used to clunk in a similar manner, you could hear the starter motor spinning up, then the bit that fly’s out, would go out late causing a clunk but starting the car.....however every time it done it, it chewed more teeth off the flywheel and knackered the starter motor even more (not good at all, was a gearbox out job).

My apologies for the lack of techinical speak when refering to the starter motor bits and bobs lol. Try hitting the started motor with a rubber mallet, they can stick occasionally and that does free them up if you lucky.

My colleague has just took delivery of his 08 plate 1.6tdci focus, its done 300 miles in 2 days and now has an engine malfunction light on

[the_lone_wolf]

My colleague has just took delivery of his 08 plate 1.6tdci focus, its done 300 miles in 2 days and now has an engine malfunction light on

dollars to doughnuts it's an electrical fault and the engine is fine, ford electrics are about as good as suzuki's corrosion resistance....:rolleyes:

[gettin2dizzy]

somewhere in the region of 45,000 i would expect, had the cluster replaced a while back so not 100% sure without looking it up in the book

great car otherwise, trucks on just fine and hauled 3 guys and a trailer up to wales and back yesterday, just getting to the age where bits begin to fall off. trouble is, if i replace it, i don't want anything else, i want another one of these:smt050
I know what you mean. Never had acar that ticks all the right boxes so much. Has a fair poke to it, and if you sit at 70 I've had 600 miles out of a tank.

Nothing major is needed at that mileage luckily. Timing adjustment is well off (75k i think)

Does it sound like play in the transmission? I know the suspension on these cars wears out pretty rapidly.

[the_lone_wolf]

Sounds like it would be to do with the starter engaging with the flywheel (or even disengaging), most likely thing to cause that noise would be the spinning bit that fires out of the starter motors getting stuck then clunking as it fly’s either out or back in or when it makes contact that it shouldn’t with the fly wheel.

My old Laguna diesel used to clunk in a similar manner, you could hear the starter motor spinning up, then the bit that fly’s out, would go out late causing a clunk but starting the car.....however every time it done it, it chewed more teeth off the flywheel and knackered the starter motor even more (not good at all, was a gearbox out job).
hmm, not so good:(

[the_lone_wolf]

Does it sound like play in the transmission? I know the suspension on these cars wears out pretty rapidly.

SHHHHHH[-X

i'm pretending the back suspension isn;t having a little squeak every now and again:rolleyes:

[gettin2dizzy]

And the front goes. Somethng to do with having an Aga under the bonnet. ;)

[G]

hmm, not so good:(

EDIT: Try tapping it with a rubber mallet first though

The starter motor is really easy to test, its literally 3 bolts and you can whip it out, you may need to remove the odd pipe here and there.

Once its off get a car battery and wire it up, 'the metal shaft with a gear type thing' will pop out and and spin then shoot back in if its fine and not sticking. Possibly heat it up with a heat gun if its happening while it hot.

Whilst its off you will be able to check the teeth on 'the shaft with a gear type thing' are fine, then stick your hand into the hole it left on the side of the gear box and have a feel of the teeth on the fly wheel.

Its fairly simple to do and wouldnt take more than an hour for peace of mind.

It will look something like this.......and 'the metal shaft with a gear type thing' is the black cog looking thing in the bottom left

http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/images/Starter%20Product.jpg

[the_lone_wolf]

And the front goes. Somethng to do with having an Aga under the bonnet. ;)

my aga never made a noise like the engine under there;)

cheers for the advice G, will see about getting under the bonnet with a greasy haynes manual over the weekend...

[Reckless Rat]

Dual Mass Flywheel problems seem to be popular on diesels ATM. No idea if this has one though!

[G]

Dual Mass Flywheel problems seem to be popular on diesels ATM. No idea if this has one though!

The laguna had a dual mass flywheel :( £950 for a new one from Ranault.

I went to a scrap yard and used the old school approach of knocking the gearing teeth bit off of the main unit and just replaced that bit.

[arenalife]

Engine mount?

[the_lone_wolf]

Engine mount?

would that not cause knocking sounds constantly though when you went over bumps and the like?

[gettin2dizzy]

would that not cause knocking sounds constantly though when you went over bumps and the like?
Depends on which mount it is. The starter motor will push at a very different angle to the weight of the car. Even the starter motor could just be loose.

[markmoto]

my moneys on it being the dual mass flywheel very common on most modern diesels now as they wear out they make a clonk, if you leave it, it will start causing you engine running problems which isnt detremental to the engine just annoying, dual mass flywheels for these are about £250 iirc and you will want to fit a new clutch and internal hydraulic slave cylinder at the same time. LUK now offers solid flywheels to replace the dual mass flywheel crap so if your going to get the job done call LUK and ask if they manufacture one for your car http://www.luk.co.uk/ solid flywheels are also alot cheaper. Good luck.

[muffles]

I have a '98 Focus 1.8 petrol with 104k miles now.

One thing I've learnt since owning this car (20-odd months now) is that it falls to bits quicker than an SV in a Russian winter, but parts are about 1/10th the cost of other marques.

Good luck, and expect to replace bits!

P.s. I also noted Ford design of parts is not 'all that'.

[markmoto]

You must have a bad one as focus's are generaly prity solid, as for the parts being much cheaper than othe makes this generaly isnt true, most makes have upped there prices on parts as this is where they make alot of there money. You want to watch a car fall to pieces before your eyes by a mercedes mates i know a few people with them and they are shocking.

[the_lone_wolf]

You must have a bad one as focus's are generaly prity solid
i'd have to agree, mine's 5 years old now and i've not had anything worse than the instrument cluster failure, which i'm pretty certain was caused by the ham fisted radio installation the 12 year old at halfords did, and then was daft enough to leave the 4 fuses he'd blown in the passenger footwell:rolleyes:

[markmoto]

instrument clusters are very common on VAG cars oh and also mercedes focus very rarely suffer from them so it quite possibly was a problem caused by the halfords monkey. I deal with most makes of cars and you would be suprised which cars suffer the most failures and its not alfa romeo btw ;)

[the_lone_wolf]

I deal with most makes of cars and you would be suprised which cars suffer the most failures and its not alfa romeo btw ;)

ah, but there's not many alfas around, i bet as a percentage of failures per 1000 sold they'd be up there with mercedes:D;)

[markmoto]

ah, but there's not many alfas around, i bet as a percentage of failures per 1000 sold they'd be up there with mercedes:D;)

You would be suprised at how many alfas there are around ;), i bet if you took the same percentage of mercedes and alfas it would be about the same if not alfa on top i,e faults actualy caused by alfas build quality and not the fact that alot of owners abuse them and dont maintain them correctly.In my experience most mercedes drivers dont drive enthusiasticaly unlike alfa drivers who usualy thrash the nuts off them :D, mate next door has a c180 coupe about three years old and its been in for numerous faults also got a mate down the road who has a three year old Alfa gt and its had nothing bar routine maintenance :cool:

[muffles]

You must have a bad one as focus's are generaly prity solid, as for the parts being much cheaper than othe makes this generaly isnt true, most makes have upped there prices on parts as this is where they make alot of there money. You want to watch a car fall to pieces before your eyes by a mercedes mates i know a few people with them and they are shocking.

They must have built the whole thing on a Friday afternoon then lol!

To give you an idea of my experience with cars, I had a 1987 BMW 320i (e30) from 99-04, covered about 25k miles and it finished on around 120k. Never really had much of an issue other than handbrake cable needed adjustment on pretty much every MOT haha...

Also had a 1989 1.0 Polo, it had sat on a drive for around 2 years all year round, then used for about 3-4 years covering around 20k-25k miles finishing on just over 100k miles almost 2 years ago now. It needed a couple of bits of welding on each of its last 2 MOTs - costing around £150 all in for each. I finally scrapped it when the exhaust started blowing (backbox not manifold area), I just fancied a newer car.

So I got the Focus...it had 100k miles....that was a November...shortly afterwards in March/April time (2007) one of the springs on the front snapped (bad Ford design - no plastic/rubber insert, meaning the top coils would touch too often and scraped, then rusted). I had done about 1k miles by then I think. The main problem was getting the struts off - nuts and bolts rusted solid, had to get a mechanic who would travel to come out and get them apart. Still took 4 hours.

Then it failed its MOT, bushes needed changing on the part of the front, OK that isn't really unexpected and I'd not be surprised at that with any car.

Next, the aforementioned exhaust mount broke. It's just a single mount (stupid design again IMO - not seen this before) - so the minute it goes, you're screwed....oh, and the rest of the exhaust will hold the back box up just long enough for it to break the centre section...lu-ver-ly!

Then recently it failed its MOT again - had to change one of the front wishbones to pass it - again a bunch of rusted nuts and bolts, although they came off more easily this time. Then putting the new wishbone on, a pinch bolt on the bottom of the front strut snapped....lovely! It's a chunky one as well. I also noted that the wishbone itself was fine....it was the bushes that needed replacing. Except you can't buy the bushes separately - good thing the price is what it was (see below).
Also, had to change the lambda sensor as that was gone. So first of all, got to get the manifold heat shield off, gives better access to the sensor. But wait, again it's rusted on (this is at the top of the engine bay now!!). So I get the bolts off with a bit of persuasion, and try to get the heat shield off - sodding thing needs the dipstick and some associated bracketry undoing to allow it out! And then what do I find, other than they have put the lambda sensor (another service item) recessed into a hole, so I can't use a spanner on it - nor a socket as it's got the wire - yep I need to buy a lambda sensor socket. Why recess the damn thing...!?

Changed some service items at the same time - air filter, yep fine, oil, yeah not too bad either. Oh wait - oil filter - stupid design again, it's at the back of the engine with the axle/steering rack underneath, so awkward to get to from underneath, and you can't get at it from the top either. It's a pretty common service item dammit! You'd think they'd put it in a sensible place.

Next thing - went to change the rear springs only to find that spring compressors you can buy in the shops will NOT fit - so I can't use mine. The top and bottom of the spring locations in the suspension are too wide and won't allow compressors on. Stupid design, etc, etc...Ford tool only (or there's another trick I am going to use, but it involves unbolting parts of the suspension...oh well).

Anyway so my opinion is that modern Fords are not built to last more than a few years or miles, and rust so quickly you can practically see the metal turning brown. Coming mainly from my e30 (over 10 years older) I was truly shocked at the quality.

It's a nice enough car when it's working, but quality is most definitely dubious.

Oh, and the parts thing - I guess I'm referring to pattern parts. New wishbone for the car - £18 plus postage! Fantastic! Pair of new headlights - £50! Centre exhaust section - £40 odd! It always cheers me up after the inevitable part breaks, to see a cheap price like that.

[the_lone_wolf]

So I got the Focus...it had 100k miles....
when you bought it? there's your problem, they won't run forever like a german diesel, the petrols won't last as long as the diesels. 10 years old is old for a car these days, a colleague of mine has on 04 BMW 320d with 66k and that sounds like a bag of screws, and the turbo is going, and he looks after it...

[muffles]

when you bought it? there's your problem, they won't run forever like a german diesel, the petrols won't last as long as the diesels. 10 years old is old for a car these days, a colleague of mine has on 04 BMW 320d with 66k and that sounds like a bag of screws, and the turbo is going, and he looks after it...

But mototech just commented on how they are solidly built :?

At the end of the day though, even if they are only meant to last that long, it was in a right state rust-wise by then - and I'm really not joking! It was worse than many modern cars, and some poor component design didn't help.

So are we agreed Focii are meant to break a lot? lol :p

[muffles]

when you bought it? there's your problem, they won't run forever like a german diesel, the petrols won't last as long as the diesels. 10 years old is old for a car these days, a colleague of mine has on 04 BMW 320d with 66k and that sounds like a bag of screws, and the turbo is going, and he looks after it...

P.s. the petrol/diesel thing - the engine isn't a problem, it's running fine...it's other bits and bobs that are the problem, stuff that is common to both cars.... (well most of it, probably not stuff like the oil filter).

[the_lone_wolf]

So are we agreed Focii are meant to break a lot? lol :p
no, what i'm saying is there aren't going to be many '98 cars out there that look like they just rolled off the showroom floor, or many that have over 100k on the clock and aren't facing the prospect of having some work done to them in the near future...;)

[muffles]

no, what i'm saying is there aren't going to be many '98 cars out there that look like they just rolled off the showroom floor, or many that have over 100k on the clock and aren't facing the prospect of having some work done to them in the near future...;)

Haha...ok, well that's not my experience then ;) - in my experience they last a lot better than the Focus :p

Hey at least you didn't disagree on the poor design lol \\:D/

[muffles]

P.s. to give a bike-related comparison of my Focus' condition, have you seen dizzyblonde's SV restoration thread? Even though that's a 21k mile bike (not surprising to see a 21k bike need some work done to it ;)) it's a lot worse than you'd expect...right?

[Viney]

My old Mk1XR2 was possibly the best most realiable car i ever had. It was stupidly over tuned and i used it daily for 3 and a half years and it NEVER broke ever! It was abused on a dialy basis. It was a great car.

However, my Astra Sri was a heap of oily sh*t. I think i replaced every mechanical part that it had including engine and box in the 5 years i had it. The head gasket going was the final straw.

[the_lone_wolf]

Haha...ok, well that's not my experience then ;) - in my experience they last a lot better than the Focus :p
based on a sample size of one vehicle, that might well have been abused for 100,000 miles before you got it?

perhaps a better judge of how well made a car is would be an objective study of how often they break down and the cost of repairing them, somthing like http://www.reliabilityindex.co.uk/ perhaps?;)

[muffles]

based on a sample size of one vehicle, that might well have been abused for 100,000 miles before you got it?

perhaps a better judge of how well made a car is would be an objective study of how often they break down and the cost of repairing them, somthing like http://www.reliabilityindex.co.uk/ perhaps?;)

Haha...well, yeah, but I don't want sensible alternatives to get in the way of my Focus bashing :p

Some of it is the type of stuff that makes sense to check it over a greater population, but other stuff - like the rusty surface that is ALL over the underside....that to me says there's something up with the material and/or any protective coating. Not that many people wash/clean cars regularly underneath, so I think it's relatively fair to compare the underside of the 100k Focus with the underside of the 120k 320i.

[the_lone_wolf]

I think it's relatively fair to compare the underside of the 100k Focus with the underside of the 120k 320i.

have they been stored in the same manner though? have they lived in the same environment? on the island and anywhere within 20miles of the sea the additional corrosion from the salty air is enough that civil engineering projects are required to use a higher grade of stainless steel...

if you'd owned both from new and used them in the same manner then it might be fairer, but you don't know the history well enough to say one hasn't been abused or used on wet salted roads then left outside and the other hasn't been driven in dry weather and garaged

too many variables to make any conclusions

[muffles]

have they been stored in the same manner though? have they lived in the same environment? on the island and anywhere within 20miles of the sea the additional corrosion from the salty air is enough that civil engineering projects are required to use a higher grade of stainless steel...

if you'd owned both from new and used them in the same manner then it might be fairer, but you don't know the history well enough to say one hasn't been abused or used on wet salted roads then left outside and the other hasn't been driven in dry weather and garaged

too many variables to make any conclusions

I'm not sure about owners prior to the previous owners, but both of those were roughly around the same area (Northants). I see your point still - one thing I can add though, is that I've seen many E30 undersides and this level of rust would be rare. That's not to say mine (my Focus) isn't the exception, but it's a lot of coincidences. Anyhoo, I keep repairing it cos it's still cheaper to do that than to scrap it and buy a new car :(

[the_lone_wolf]

Right, back on topic...

starter motor is out, here's a couple of pictures of the starter motor shaft and the flywheel:

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/2156/dscf7046medbg9.th.jpg (http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf7046medbg9.jpg)

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/4127/dscf7049medfi9.th.jpg (http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf7049medfi9.jpg)

there's definitely some interfacing going on, the teeth on the starter motor are fairly worn down on one side and there's definitely some wear on the flywheel teeth...

what's the diagnosis? never taken one of these apart before so not 100% certain what to be expecting

[the_lone_wolf]

Update:

After much searching on the internet, and the focus owners forum, it would appear that the course of events went like this:

Sometime around september last year the auxilliary drive belt began to break up, this in turn caused the alternator to not charge the battery properly meaning it was replaced. Unfortunately it seems the battery was low enough for long enough that it has damaged the starter motor, meaning the engine isn;t cranking as well as it could. This causes the starting problems with the Dual-Mass Flywheels that are found on most modern diesel engines these days, leading to the flywheel, clutch and associated gubbins needing replacing at a cost of ~£1200 if you go to a ford dealer

Hopefully mine hasn't reached the stage where the poor cranking has damaged the flywheel, and all i need is a replacement starter motor, which i'm picking up and fitting this afternoon, if it has then it's going to be an expensive month:(

[markmoto]

If you search online you will find that when the dual mass flywheels are on there way out they shed iron filings, which get into the starter motor causing starter sticking problems, the only way to sold it 100% is a new dual mass flywheel and starter motor oh and clutch while you are there.

[G]

Hopefully an easy fix then, the pictures you have put up look normal, damage to the starter motor would be obvious on the teeth.

The flywheel could be damaged at only a couple of points around it, so you would need to turn the engine to see the rest of it.

[the_lone_wolf]

If you search online you will find that when the dual mass flywheels are on there way out they shed iron filings, which get into the starter motor causing starter sticking problems, the only way to sold it 100% is a new dual mass flywheel and starter motor oh and clutch while you are there.
if that is the case then the starter motor needs replacing anyway, and there's been enough people with relatively minor starting clunks like mine who have had the same problem sorted by replacing the starter, so i'll do this first and see what happens - hopefully it'll fix it*










*until such time as i can trade it in for another car

[the_lone_wolf]

new starter motor in and hurrah!!!

much faster cranking, about twice the speed, and no clunk on a hot start

dodged an expensive bullet there i think, now let's hope the DMF doesn't decide to destroy itself before i need to trade it in:D

i love my focus again:love:

[G]

Good stuff.....the ORG prevails in car diagnosis lol :cool:

[the_lone_wolf]

the ORG prevails in car diagnosis lol :cool:

yep, who'd have thought a starting problem could be caused by a faulty starter motor#-o;)

[markmoto]

Nice one ;-) but if your starter goes again within about six months you know your dual mass is at fault.

[Jabba]

Bought an '07 Madza 6 TS2 (143bhp) 2.0TD a few weeks ago with 24k on the clock. Lovely car :love:

Made a mental note to have a listen every now and again for clonking on start-up.

BTW, never heard of a DMF until reading this. What is it, what does it do and why are they used instead of a conventional flywheel on diesels?

Cheers

[the_lone_wolf]

BTW, never heard of a DMF until reading this. What is it, what does it do and why are they used instead of a conventional flywheel on diesels?
LINK (http://moodle.student.cnwl.ac.uk/moodledata_shared/cdx%20etextbook/dswmedia/trans/clutchMan/clutches/dualmassflywheels.html)

Basically they smooth out the transmission, same a regular flywheel but the requirements of a diesel engine are slightly different to a petrol