Racetech suspension question

[Jackie_Black]

Good afternoon all,

My supsension parts are arriving this week. I've opted for a nitron sport shock 0.90kg racetech linear springs and some racetech emulators.

I had planned to use 10w oil and have decided to entrust the work to a mechanic i'm happy with.

I have a question for anyone from the org with the emulators fitted.
Are they adjustable?
Will i need to pull the forks apart to adjust them?
Do the preLoad adjusters still work at the top of the forks?

Cheers in advance..

[Blue_SV650S]

you will need thicker oil than 10W

and yes, the forks have to come completely apart as you have to drill holes in the damper rods.
Yes the emulators are adjustable ... and you need to remove them every time u do it :(

[zadar]

10W is thin for stock damping rods.
they are adjustable but you have to take cap,spacer and spring out and than fish emulator out.
yes,preload works.

[Jackie_Black]

Phew, glad pre load still works. I'll go for 20W oil then set the emulators up the way the instructions say I should and hopefully it'll be spot on!

Is there a lot of drilling involved?

[zadar]

Is there a lot of drilling involved?
depends how you do it.by race tech instructions or just making existing holes bigger.and if you want to close rebound hole or not.

[Jackie_Black]

Hmm, more decisions.

I'm mainly looking for imrpoved fast road performance (sometimes with a pillion) and sharper handling. I've gone for nice heavy springs to at least give the bike a chance as it bottoms out when i ride it enthusiastically!!

What does closing the rebound hole do?

[zadar]

gives more rebound damping.

[Jackie_Black]

I see, so thats when the forks have compressed and are moving back outwards. Is blocking the hole a good plan for the road then or is it a little extreme and more suited for the track?

[Blue_SV650S]

This should help ;) ... you will also need to cut some new spacers up to take into account the difference in length of the springs and emulator.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb319/blue_sv650s/damperrod6.jpg

[Jackie_Black]

Ah see, think it's making a little more sense now then..

I wonder why spacers don't come with the kit, what's a good spacer material?

[zadar]

I see, so thats when the forks have compressed and are moving back outwards. Is blocking the hole a good plan for the road then or is it a little extreme and more suited for the track?
suspension does same job,on track or street.

[zadar]

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb319/blue_sv650s/damperrod6.jpg
this is exactly how I would not do it.
your stock rod has 4 holes.this one on pic has 2 more added on top of them.drilling existing 4 to 10-11mm is better way to go,in my opinion.

[Blue_SV650S]

Ah see, think it's making a little more sense now then..

I wonder why spacers don't come with the kit, what's a good spacer material?

If you have racetech springs, they will come with some alli pipe you can cut down to size 8) ... if not you will have to cut the stock ones a bit ...

this is exactly how I would not do it.
your stock rod has 4 holes.this one on pic has 2 more added on top of them.drilling existing 4 to 10-11mm is better way to go,in my opinion.

Not tried it the other way as comparrison, but I am happy with the results this way. 8)

[zadar]

Not tried it the other way as comparrison, but I am happy with the results this way. 8)
next time you have fork leg of the bike email me and I will tell you how to do little test.you be surprised what you will see.

[Blue_SV650S]

you be surprised what you will see.

I highly doubt that!! ;)

[zadar]

I highly doubt that!! ;)
you can be sure if you try,no doubt :)
up to you.
or anybody that has damping rods like those on picture.

[Jackie_Black]

So i can either drill more holes or enlarge the original ones to let more oil through?

Good to know racetech supply me with the spacers. Glad I don't need to buy anymore parts!!

Really looking forward to this now apparently it really transforms the bike..

[Blue_SV650S]

So i can either drill more holes or enlarge the original ones to let more oil through?

Good to know racetech supply me with the spacers. Glad I don't need to buy anymore parts!!

Really looking forward to this now apparently it really transforms the bike..

Time for a 'blue_' video 8)

Those rods you see above (with 80 springs 15w oil and emulators) are in my trackbike, I think you will agree the results are pleasing enough 8)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=T6bULT4Jbgo

If you look at my other vids too, you will see the emulator setup is replete with good works with regard to allowing me to 'ridge the front end' hard!! 8)

[Jackie_Black]

lol,

Sv upset a few people that day!! So you went for 80 springs and 15w oil. May I ask how heavy you are?

[Blue_SV650S]

lol,

Sv upset a few people that day!! So you went for 80 springs and 15w oil. May I ask how heavy you are?

I have podged up a bit recently (~13.5 stone) but normally about 13st in the buff! ... so what 15st fully kitted at the mo?

Its all personal preference, but I like a compliant front end ... the 85s I had in there when I first got the bike were way WAY too stiff for my liking :( so I went 80s 8)

[zadar]

Those rods you see above (with 80 springs 15w oil and emulators) are in my trackbike, I think you will agree the results are pleasing enough 8)


:)
not really.I can only trust you it works good for you if you say so.
so,when you pulling fork off?:D

[Jackie_Black]

Cool, well i range in weight from 16.5 - 17.5 stone and often have a pillion so i think i'll be ok with 90s. I was gonna go lighter on the off chance I lose weight but thought I best not.

[Blue_SV650S]

:)
not really.I can only trust you it works good for you if you say so.
so,when you pulling fork off?:D

I am not saying it is the 'best' way as I have never tried the other, all I can say is that this way works pretty well ... I have no qualms about recommending it with the caveat that I haven't compared it to the other method. I can also say that 'feel' from suspension is very subjective, so even if one was is scientifically superior to the other ... doesn't automatically mean it will 'feel' superior to the rider ;)

As for taking the forks off ... NEVER ... there really is little point is there! ;)

I don't need to take the forks apart to understand how a fluid acts through different size orifices ... :rolleyes:

[zadar]

As for taking the forks off ... NEVER ... there really is little point is there! ;)

I don't need to take the forks apart to understand how a fluid acts through different size orifices ... :rolleyes:
you confusing works well for me with works well.
it can work well for 90 out of 100 riders.I can just prove to you why it does not work for those 10.
if you understand how fluid acts through different size orifices can you tell me difference of act between 1mm and 8mm rebound hole?

[Jackie_Black]

To be honest I think the mechanics will just bore the holes out a little bit as it's probably less effort than drilling a fresh hole.

Now out of interest what adjustment is there available on the emulators? Do they have a "perfect for the road " setting and a "Hardcore racer" setting or am I going to have to guess?

[Blue_SV650S]

you confusing works well for me with works well.
it can work well for 90 out of 100 riders.I can just prove to you why it does not work for those 10.
if you understand how fluid acts through different size orifices can you tell me difference of act between 1mm and 8mm rebound hole?

Go on then, prove this to me!! ... bearing in mind it is so subjective ... I'd like to see you try!! ;)

To be honest I think the mechanics will just bore the holes out a little bit as it's probably less effort than drilling a fresh hole.

Now out of interest what adjustment is there available on the emulators? Do they have a "perfect for the road " setting and a "Hardcore racer" setting or am I going to have to guess?

They have a little nut on a emulator pre-load spring thingy. I set mine at 2.5 turns out. I think if you start off at 2 turns out with yours, you are prolly not too far off the mark :)

[zadar]

Go on then, prove this to me!! ... bearing in mind it is so subjective ... I'd like to see you try!! ;)

take fork off :)
what you feel is subjective.
what is really happening is not.what is happening is fact.
anyway,since you not interested we can leave it at that.

[Blue_SV650S]

take fork off :)
what you feel is subjective.
what is really happening is not.what is happening is fact.
anyway,since you not interested we can leave it at that.

What is taking the fork off going to prove/solve?

Oh and what is 'happening' is what is making the 'feel' ;)

[Jackie_Black]

Right, i've just received me emulators and springs. I can compress the springs by hand but they feel nice and hard so i think they'll make the forks much stiffer.

I've also looked at the emulators (glad i'm not fitting them) and read all the instructions. They say drill two more holes and leave the rebound holes alone. So if it works for racetech then it must work fine.

[Luckypants]

I've also looked at the emulators (glad i'm not fitting them) and read all the instructions. They say drill two more holes and leave the rebound holes alone. So if it works for racetech then it must work fine.

That's what I did, not saying it was the best setup but was a million times better than stock. Enjoy :cool:

[yorkie_chris]

you confusing works well for me with works well.
it can work well for 90 out of 100 riders.I can just prove to you why it does not work for those 10.
if you understand how fluid acts through different size orifices can you tell me difference of act between 1mm and 8mm rebound hole?

Clue: it's nowhere near linear resistance to flow.

Seems to me that suspension feeling planted is more important than technical superiority, had a go on one of the big beemers with the telelever front end and it felt really odd, worked fine... but which makes you faster?

[Troy]

... but which makes you faster?

I'd guess about 50% confidence, 25% good rubber, and 25% suspension functionality keeping that rubber on the road. ;)

[Jackie_Black]

Has my thread turned into a discusion about fluid dynamics now? I do like to spark a nice topical debate.

[zadar]

Clue: it's nowhere near linear resistance to flow.

Seems to me that suspension feeling planted is more important than technical superiority, had a go on one of the big beemers with the telelever front end and it felt really odd, worked fine... but which makes you faster?

the one you more comfortable with.
I am not talking about what you can feel or not or how fast you can ride.it
has nothing to do with how things work.
lets say you drill stock rebound pin hole(which is 1.65mm) out to 8mm.what you get?you get zero rebound damping all the way through fork stroke.
if you would drill that hole somewhere in middle of damping rod you would
have fork with zero damping at second half of stroke.
when you drill it above existing holes like on pic here you have zero
damping at last part of stroke(1/2-1 inch depending on set up and where
exactly holes are added).there is reason why factory drilled holes in
location they did and why seal in fork tube is where it is.
most people don't use this part of stroke,either don't ride hard enough or
don't brake hard enough.when cornering you are somewhere in middle of fork stroke so it is not issue.about 10% of riders will run in to this
problem,and most of them don't know about it or what is really going on.they just feel something is not right.
easy way to see it is to simply take fork off,unscrew cap and compress fork by hand.when fully compressed pull on fork and you will see how long
you will have zero damping.you will have zero until fork seal passes over
holes drilled above stock ones.
to me this is unacceptable,especially since doing it better is easier.
however you are free to do it any way you like it.

[yorkie_chris]

So what is the better way? I've been asked about this a few times and have no idea... I just bolted on different forks.

[zadar]

it is better and easier to make existing holes bigger.it will not affect rebound.
reason to put emulator in is to bypass stock holes and use emulator to control damping.
drilling holes bigger or more of them does that.holes can no more have any affect on compression damping since they are to big.

[yorkie_chris]

What size would you recommend to enlarge them to?

[zadar]

10-11mm is enough for emulator to take over.

here is pic of fork.A is compression chamber with oil.green colored square is fork tube seal that separates compression from rebound(B)chamber.without this seal you would have no damping.on compression tube with seal is pushing oil through holes in damping rod.when you put emulator on top you closing compression chamber there and emulator(yellow) becomes valve.now you don't need holes to act as valve so you make them bigger.

[zadar]

when fork goes up on rebound stroke green seal is pushing oil out through little hole on top(arrow).this hole along with leakage past seal is controlling rebound damping.
see extra hole added on bottom(red circle).when you get to bottom of stroke green seal will travel past that hole.now you have 8mm rebound hole along with little one on top.this gives you no rebound damping until seal is back up past that hole.

[racinteach]

I work with a local sv race bike builder and I have been only drillingout the lower stock four holes and welding shut the rebound hole. Racetech is not the final say in suspension setup. I have also been told by an inside source at racetech, that there instructions are incorrect. If you are to have your forks done by them personally, they will do the above mentioned procedure. Drill out the four stock holes and seal off the damper hole. I have done dozens of sv forks in this manner adn we have all had excellent results. Even racers who had the forks done the " racetech instructions" way have noticed a difference when going to the above mentioned procedure. Hope this helps.

[Luckypants]

OK - I now understand why drilling extra holes above the stock holes in the damper rod is a bad thing, because at the limit of travel, you end up with no rebound damping.

What I fail to understand is why close the rebound damping hole. Does this not cause a hydraulic lock in the fork as the oil has no where to go?

[Jackie_Black]

I didn't see any mention of welding holes up in the instructions I'll have to check again. Also do i need to use the circlips that are provided as the instructions are a little vague and say some forks need them.

The bike is going in on monday so I really need a definitive setup to tell the mechanics.

Drill the four holes to 11mm and weld up a rebound hole is that correct oh mighty org?

[zadar]

What I fail to understand is why close the rebound damping hole. Does this not cause a hydraulic lock in the fork as the oil has no where to go?
because there is to much fluid leak past seals.chamber is not sealed good enough.that green seal is just plastic ring.
it also gets worse with stiffer springs.stock springs are around .77 and when you install lets say .95 springs damping is off.damping has to work with particular spring.

[Jackie_Black]

So lets see if i've got this right then :D

If i weld up the hole i'll get more rebound damping as the oil has to go past the seals. If I leave it as it is then the rebound damping will be similar to stock. Do the little circlips affect the amount of oil that can get through when the hole is shut and do they need to be on?

This is getting really taxing, glad i asked...

[zadar]

If i weld up the hole i'll get more rebound damping as the oil has to go past the seals. If I leave it as it is then the rebound damping will be similar to stock.
oil weight also controls rebound.heavier oil more rebound.
lets say you use stiffer springs and same as stock oil.you will get less rebound than stock.emulator has nothing to do with rebound.

[Jackie_Black]

So heavy springs + heavy oil = more rebound damping

The above + Welded up hole = Even more rebound Damping!

Excellent..

Right now I just need some confirmation about the little circlips.

[zadar]

Right now I just need some confirmation about the little circlips.
look around for garbage can and throw circlip there.
it is for some damper rods that have bigger hole where emulator sits.it reduces size of hole so emulator does not move around sideways.
just like instructions it does not belong to sv :mrgreen:

[Luckypants]

because there is to much fluid leak past seals.chamber is not sealed good enough.that green seal is just plastic ring.
it also gets worse with stiffer springs.stock springs are around .77 and when you install lets say .95 springs damping is off.damping has to work with particular spring.

Cool - I suspected that was the answer. Many Thanks.

[Jackie_Black]

I'm really glad I started asking questions now like. I think i've managed to sort everything out now. I'll drill the existing holes to 11mm and throw the circlips in the bin. Use 20W oil and leave the rebound hole alone. I believe that will be spot on for fast road use.

Phew, cheers

Bloody good resource this.

[zadar]

here is how I like to do it using stock damper rods.
you can see stock damping rods,drilled ones with rebound hole closed,and bottom out cone drilled(most of time I remove them all together).
another step up would be to use traxxion damping rods and thinner oil.thinner oil you use more consistent damping will be.

[svdemon]

How much do a set of these cost? Sounds like a must for the SV!

[Jackie_Black]

Emulators are £120 from racetech. The springs are £80 and i'm told they completely tranform the bike.

I will confirm this next week when they are all fitted!!

[svdemon]

Where did you buy them? I looked on the racetech site and they had emulators for 170 dollars!

I've got Hagon springs in there already so hopefully just the emulators will sort me out.

[northwind]

Emulators are pretty great, it's the simplicity of it that makes them win. I sometimes say GSXR swaps can make more sense, if you're the right weight for them in the first place, because you can sell the stock bits to fund the new parts... But all it takes is for one part to be bad and that goes out the window. Emulators are a safe bet.

[Jackie_Black]

to get emulators in the UK you need to buy them from the incredibly helpful people at PDQ. Unfortunately if you already have Hagon progressives the emulators may act a bit wierd. I believe they like linear springs!!

And Mr Northwind you are dead right about the GSXR front end. I really wanted it but i'm too heavy so would need to do all this with the new forks. Although they would have looked much better!

[northwind]

They go up to 1kg/mm I think with the more recent GSXR forks ;) I'm in the interesting position that I'm too bloody light for all the GSXR forks now :rolleyes:

[Troy]

I just took my first test ride last night after swapping the original springs out of my '01 650S and fresh fork oil to replace the dirty watery stuff that I dumped out. Wow! Just... Wow. It was amazingly better!

Racetech .85 kg/mm springs: $98 (US dollars)
1 big bottle of 15W fork oil: $12.95
Spacer length / preload advice from sv650.org forums: priceless!It was like riding a new bike!! Well, except for the fact that half my fairing and headlight box are held together by epoxy and zip-ties, and even a little duct tape... But it RODE like a new bike! :D

I didn't do the emulators though... I think if I hadn't high-sided my poor SV in the past, and there was less broken pieces, I would have paid the $$ for the emulators.

-Troy

[svdemon]

I'm going to ring racetech directly, surely they won't refuse to sell me their product directly? Can anyone confirm if they work with progressive springs? Can't see it being an issue

[Jackie_Black]

The disributor for racetech in the UK is a company called PDQ. Just type it into google. All of the contact info is in there and they are very helpful.

[svdemon]

Racetech charge 170 dollars so i'd rather go through them, or do you get hammered with import duty which takes it up to 120 pounds all in?

[Jackie_Black]

you might get them through no problem like, give it a bash. I just got a suzuki seat from the states and it was marked up as a gift so I got no import duty on it. However when I ordered my helibars they slapped £55 duty on so I saved about 3 quid and waited 3 weeks. :(

[svdemon]

Could be worth a shot as i'm not in a desperate hurry. Though saying that since riding my mates GSXR i need to do something about those forks!!!

[Troy]

Can anyone confirm if they work with progressive springs? Can't see it being an issue
http://www.racetech.com/SubMenu.asp?cMenu=4&c=Yes&cSubMenu=11&showPage=street#5

Sounds like they just "recommend", not require non-progressive springs, due to the difficulty in adjusting suspension if the spring rate isn't constant. Does that help?

[northwind]

Check with Robw or zadar, they'll be able to give you a rock solid answer ;)

[Jackie_Black]

Bike went in this morning for a full suspension overhaul. I can hardly wait!!
Told the gents to bore the holes out to 11mm and they seemed happier with that than drilling fresh holes.

Can't wait to get it back but it might be a while as the garage was full!

[svdemon]

Looking forward to hearing the results of this.

[Jackie_Black]

As the the queue was very full (with two strokes lol) my bike won't be ready until tommorow night. However I have every faith they will do a stirling job. and hopefully not charge the earth.

What's the going rate for fitting a shock,emulators and springs?

[Jackie_Black]

Got the bike back. :D

Spot on.

I was a little ****ed off at first cos it clonked over the first pothole and I thought emulators were a load of ****. But then the oil must have got through the fork a bit and they feel fabulous. No matter how many potholes I hit there was no more clonking.

Excellent.

I took the bike up to sixty on an open road and high speed stability is a world apart form stock. Moving onto my favourite road (the beehive in the wet) and flinging the bike through some corners the tranformation to the handling became startlingly apparent.

It is F*****g amazing!!

The new shock and fork springs have made everything very very tight and properly damped. Point it and it now goes where you want with no wallow and no messing about. I absolutely can't wait to get this thing out in the dry now.

Racetech springs and emulators, just do it.

Cheers for all the help..

[svdemon]

Mmmmmm!! Sounds good! Anyone know of a decent firm up here (central scotland) that would set my bike up?

[tocrank]

This was very helpful, I'm ordering a set of racetech emulators tomorrow. There's only one thing I failed to understand - should the damping hole be welded or not?!

[northwind]

My biased opinion- search for Zadar's opinion on the subject, and do what he says. Man knows stuff.

[tocrank]

I did. The answer is YES!