View Full Version : military beastings
as i know there are a few people on here in the
military i was wondering what your veiws on this?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wiltshire/7532516.stm
Spikenipple
31-07-08, 05:22 PM
Beatings or Bee Stings?
startrek.steve
31-07-08, 05:24 PM
Beatings or Bee Stings?
Beastings? Im sure those forces boys are up for anything!!
Steve
gettin2dizzy
31-07-08, 05:36 PM
It has been going on for years. Generally this kind of thing happens as a result of their actions. The army are very tribal in that respect; look after them, and they look after you. **** them off, and you pay for it.
I don't however condone any of it, and I hope that the people responsible are hung out to dry because of it. The smirks on their faces as they left the first hearing said it all...
It's always been part of military life. Was when I was in. I think everyone should look at all the facts.
Tests subsequently showed he had ecstasy in his body when he died.
Anyone know what effects that stuff has to the body? Anybody know what the body does when it's worked hard with that stuff?
Top level sportsmen who are remarkably fit have been known to drop down dead on the spot with a heart attack.
I'm not choosing one side or the other, but physical fitness is a key requirement of being a soldier. Then there is the consideration of if he should have ever been in the army in the first place. A soldier out on tour of duty in an operational environment taking drugs? Hmmmm.
I have the deepest sympathy for his family but not entirely sure I have the same amount for him. It is sad that this has happened, but the question has to be asked, did the drugs kill him or the beasting he received?
Beastings always have and always should continue.
The thing that is going to f**k me off about it all is now the PC brigade are going to try and sick their ore in to say the Military regime is one of bllying blah blah blah,
This soldier was being punished for something he done wrong, it was a beasting or he would have been fined or given extra duties or similar . In all fairness yes he should have been given water, but the whoe point of the punishment is exactly that a fookin punishment. You cant stop and cuddle them half way through , pet them and check to see if they want their mummys!!
Oh and more to the point this little t*at had E in his body so chances are this was still effecting his ability to regulate body temp properly. less we forget you body sosent let you know when you need water on E.
But the press will not highligt that no they will try and se the Military becomes more of a soft place, it really fuc*s me off. Chances are i reckon that was a serious factor in those blokes being acuitted.
I have been on the recieving end of beastings as i am sure all in the Army have (wont include the RAF as a punishment for them is a hotel with no pool) . You **** uup you grt punished it aint a hard concept to grasp is it?
Warthog
31-07-08, 07:12 PM
I think the military is too harsh! I can't beleive you could be KILLED in it! If people don't want to do excercise then they should have the option to go and sit down instead. There is no sense in running around and putting your face in mud. And always being yelled at, they aren't even polite! You never hear a "please charge" or "thank you for the air support". Some people just aren't as good at press-ups as others, they should help them out, give them a special uniform so the Taliban don't shoot at them so hard.
I think the military is too harsh! I can't beleive you could be KILLED in it! If people don't want to do excercise then they should have the option to go and sit down instead. There is no sense in running around and putting your face in mud. And always being yelled at, they aren't even polite! You never hear a "please charge" or "thank you for the air support". Some people just aren't as good at press-ups as others, they should help them out, give them a special uniform so the Taliban don't shoot at them so hard.
Good point well made.
tanis34
31-07-08, 08:50 PM
ive had a couple of beastings and accepted then as part of the life i was in , and how would the nco's involved know there were drugs in his system??
ThEGr33k
31-07-08, 09:00 PM
I think the military is too harsh! I can't beleive you could be KILLED in it! If people don't want to do excercise then they should have the option to go and sit down instead. There is no sense in running around and putting your face in mud. And always being yelled at, they aren't even polite! You never hear a "please charge" or "thank you for the air support". Some people just aren't as good at press-ups as others, they should help them out, give them a special uniform so the Taliban don't shoot at them so hard.
I agree. Its stupid getting treat like a child. It does my head in. Granted some of the Army lads do act like animals but thats because they get treat like they do I think.
Something that does my head in in the RAF and its no where near the same level as the Army is.
Should this have happened NO! I think some people take a little too much joy in seeing people suffer and I think thats probably why this went so far as to kill the individual.
And they wonder why they cant recruit? Heh.
I agree. Its stupid getting treat like a child.
.
Some of the reasoning behind disapline is sound if you a little gob ****e who does not do as they are told then you are not going to do as you are told when it matters.
ThEGr33k
31-07-08, 09:15 PM
Some of the reasoning behind disapline is sound if you a little gob ****e who does not do as they are told then you are not going to do as you are told when it matters.
Aye... I did half cover myself by saying some are animals... or :toss:'s maybe more appropriet. Its a crappy position to be in I agree. :(
If they can't take it they shouldn't join, simple as that.
Wayluya
02-08-08, 10:09 PM
Nevr been in the forces - but from what I have read physical excercise is no longer allowed to be used as punishment - but I could have got that wrong?
I can see plusses and minusses in this situation - certainly any organisation that allows those who are recognised to be only capable of commanding a small amount of authority are nonetheless given the power to use the authority they have in a way that could kill someone cannot claim no responsibility.
IMO their is a fundamental line between hard discipline with a purpose and bullying for self enjoyment. I am sure the Army has enuf of those with a stripe or 2 who enjoy the latter. Obviously me not in the forces means a lot I don't know - but IME human nature is human nature - and no reason why the Army should be any different.
From what I can gather the Army runs a policy of wilful blindness to what goes on in certain matters, until such time as "the sh#t hits the fan" at which time they throw all concerned to the wolves......whilst expressing surprise.
The Basket
03-08-08, 02:54 PM
IMO their is a fundamental line between hard discipline with a purpose and bullying for self enjoyment. I am sure the Army has enuf of those with a stripe or 2 who enjoy the latter. Obviously me not in the forces means a lot I don't know - but IME human nature is human nature - and no reason why the Army should be any different.
From what I can gather the Army runs a policy of wilful blindness to what goes on in certain matters, until such time as "the sh#t hits the fan" at which time they throw all concerned to the wolves......whilst expressing surprise.
I thought you said you were never in the forces! You seem to know to much!
10 years in the Air Force and never saw or even heard of beastings , mind you, we were treated like adults I suppose so we probably wouldnt have had it done to us, I expect the navy is the same.
The Air Force send their officers in to battle and they are high in the sky and unlikely to be engaging the enemy in hand to hand combat. The Navy shoot missiles from miles and miles away. The Army are there at the front line with every possible chance they will be engaging the enemy at very close quarters. It takes a very different type of discipline and therefor training.
The Air Force send their officers in to battle and they are high in the sky and unlikely to be engaging the enemy in hand to hand combat. The Navy shoot missiles from miles and miles away. The Army are there at the front line with every possible chance they will be engaging the enemy at very close quarters. It takes a very different type of discipline and therefor training.
Fair point I suppose, not disputing that at all, but killing someone for the sake of discipline does seem a bit outdated dont you think ?
Fair point I suppose, not disputing that at all, but killing someone for the sake of discipline does seem a bit outdated dont you think ?
I'd hazard a guess that killing him wasn't actually on the agenda. Let's not forget the drugs in his body too.
I'd hazard a guess that killing him wasn't actually on the agenda. Let's not forget the drugs in his body too.
Again, fair point, I dunno I just never saw it in the air force, then again its a different era, Ive been out a while.
I expect the navy is the same.
actually on Ship the Navy is worse than the Army for Bullsh*t and disaline. It has to be in order for everything to run smoothly and properly if engaged in sea warfare.
yorkie_chris
03-08-08, 10:02 PM
actually on Ship the Navy is worse than the Army for Bullsh*t and disaline. It has to be in order for everything to run smoothly and properly if engaged in sea warfare.
Remember most of the army discipline rules are left over from a time where battle tactics consisted of "march in perfectly straight lines toward each other and see who runs out of men first" Which in itself was left over from tactics which said "put your shields together and stab people with pointy things" :-P
lukemillar
04-08-08, 02:33 AM
If they can't take it they shouldn't join, simple as that.
Yep - that's what I was thinking. Do I want someone to shout in my face because he has more stripes on his arm than me? No! So I didn't join the forces - easy.
However, I think any loss of life is sad regardless of the circumstances
DanDare
04-08-08, 03:22 PM
I got beasted when I was in the forces, it was just accepted and part of the course. You only received it when you f**cked up so it made you not want to screw up again, therefore act as an effective fighting unit.
No different to what prisons should be like, not a nice place to be in thus won't offend again.
Breaking the rules and messing up has with a set punishment.
northwind
04-08-08, 04:27 PM
Breaking the rules and messing up has with a set punishment.
Well, that's kinda the point isn't it, it has a set official punishment and this wasn't it ;)
I don't really have an opinion on the idea in general... But specifically in this case, it's not typically a good idea to kill your own soldiers, so I suppose you have to be against it when it goes this far.
Is everyone ignoring the fact about the drugs found in his body just because if it were included it wouldn't make for such a good argument against beastings. :confused:
The Basket
04-08-08, 07:26 PM
I was RAF so speaking from my own experience and not from something I read in the papers.
The NCOs had a duty of care and they didn't. Whatever the lad was on is not important. They pushed too hard.
There was most certainly a case to answer.
The punishment in the end, didn't fit the crime.
gettin2dizzy
04-08-08, 07:41 PM
Is everyone ignoring the fact about the drugs found in his body just because if it were included it wouldn't make for such a good argument against beastings. :confused:
It doesn't say how much, so it would be hugely assuming to construct your opinion based on this.
northwind
04-08-08, 08:11 PM
I read elsewhere that it was traces, rather than substantial amounts. But I have no idea if that's true or not, official info seems thin on the ground. It doesn't seem to have been considered a factor in the death though.
Well, that's kinda the point isn't it, it has a set official punishment and this wasn't it ;)
.
Actually all that would have been oficially given would have been to Drill him around the Barracks a bit quicker than normal, and yes it still is an acceptable form of punishment in the Army.
Is everyone ignoring the fact about the drugs found in his body just because if it were included it wouldn't make for such a good argument against beastings. :confused:
Exactly traces or not MDMA should not have been in his system
It doesn't say how much, so it would be hugely assuming to construct your opinion based on this.
Not really I am sure yo u are awarw MDMA has widly varying effects on different people. 100mg my be ok for me but killy you. And As i said before one of the main effects of MDMA is to severly mess with the bodys temperature control!!! Chances are i would assume that the Drug had a greater effect on his death than people realise.
Just saw this and thought it might throw a bit of light on the subject http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=97169&highlight=bullying+forces
Its all true I tells ya :D
SoulKiss
05-08-08, 01:17 PM
I hope none of what follows causes offence.
I am not, and never have been in the Forces, or wanted to be.
However I do believe that the current PC world is completely incompatible with what the Forces are about.
The Forces are about gathering a bunch of people and skills together with the sole purpose of defending this country, whether it be on Land, Sea or Air.
The people who serve in the Forces ARE different to those of us who dont, they need to be trained, conditioned to react as and how they are ordered, when they are ordered without hesitation or people may die, they also have to be trained to do things that those of us not in their position would find distasteful or even in some cases, wrong.
There should be no reporting from war zones, and to a large degree, what happens in that society should not be under the scrutiny of the rest of us.
I hope none of what follows causes offence.
I am not, and never have been in the Forces, or wanted to be.
However I do believe that the current PC world is completely incompatible with what the Forces are about.
The Forces are about gathering a bunch of people and skills together with the sole purpose of defending this country, whether it be on Land, Sea or Air.
The people who serve in the Forces ARE different to those of us who dont, they need to be trained, conditioned to react as and how they are ordered, when they are ordered without hesitation or people may die, they also have to be trained to do things that those of us not in their position would find distasteful or even in some cases, wrong.
There should be no reporting from war zones, and to a large degree, what happens in that society should not be under the scrutiny of the rest of us.
I agree and If the forces become PC like the rest of the ountry it is IMO going to be detremental to our ability yo do the tasks asked of us as effectivly.
I agree on the whole with Soulkiss on this matter. I'm in the RAf and we don't get beasted like the army but we do get more than our fair share of it and it's part of life. In basic training you're getting beasted every day for the vast majority of the day. It's somethign that you are told about before you join up and somethign which you expect.
Life in an operational theatre being shown to the general public is a good and a bad thing. It's good that the public see how the forces have to live and how they are at constant risk for what in reality for new soldiers is pennies. I know that human right on both sides are always highlighted but things happen that shouldn;t when everyone is stressed and under pressure. I know this isn't what happened in the case in the OP but it's a fact.
SoulKiss
05-08-08, 01:27 PM
I agree and If the forces become PC like the rest of the ountry it is IMO going to be detremental to our ability yo do the tasks asked of us as effectivly.
Just realised that I completely failed to make my point, despite raving for a bit :)
The point I was trying to make is that "rough justice" is an unavoidable part of the situation, its not like in civilian life where the guy working with you messing up means you miss a deadline and maybe dont get a bonus, this IS life and death stuff.
Personally if there ARE traces of E/MDMA found in his corpse, write it off as that and get on with things, case closed.
I can never understand how someone can go into the forces these days and then say it wasnt what they expected ? it,s all over the news, the internet, blogs from whinging servicemen, it does my head in.
One of the main reasons I left after 12 years service was because it was getting to soft. The new recruits coming through just did not have the same level of respect for seniority as those before them.
We used to be the most respected (by all other forces and nations) Army in the world. That most certainly is not the case now.
One of the main reasons I left after 12 years service was because it was getting to soft. The new recruits coming through just did not have the same level of respect for seniority as those before them.
We used to be the most respected (by all other forces and nations) Army in the world. That most certainly is not the case now.
I did 10 yrs meself and when I came back from germany in 84 I felt like an old man, it just seemed to be kids everywhere, we even had yts people with us and we had to show them everything, over and over again, I left two years later pretty dissolusioned by the whole thing really, saying that I can only remember a few bad days it was mostly the best time of life really, but when I joined I can remember older guys telling me it wasnt the air force they once knew and when I left I knew exactly what they meant.
One of the main reasons I left after 12 years service was because it was getting to soft. The new recruits coming through just did not have the same level of respect for seniority as those before them.
We used to be the most respected (by all other forces and nations) Army in the world. That most certainly is not the case now.
When did you leave then, i may well have been one of those kids LOL.I joined in 97.
And yes its changed even since i have been in, for the worse as well.
When did you leave then, i may well have been one of those kids LOL.I joined in 97.
And yes its changed even since i have been in, for the worse as well.
I think you,ll every branch of the forces thinks the next generation isnt as tough as the previous one, it may well be true though
One of the main reasons I left after 12 years service was because it was getting to soft. The new recruits coming through just did not have the same level of respect for seniority as those before them.
We used to be the most respected (by all other forces and nations) Army in the world. That most certainly is not the case now.
Oh I dunno mate, I still think our forces have a very good rep worldwide, its the politicians that put our troops into these situtions that should be beasted
we without a doubt the best trained and fitest Army in the world as a rule.
SoulKiss
05-08-08, 02:29 PM
we without a doubt the best trained and fitest Army in the world as a rule.
Good to see that although the training etc might have gotten softer, the brainwashing still works :)
Hehe
Good to see that although the training etc might have gotten softer, the brainwashing still works :)
Hehe
:D
Ceri JC
05-08-08, 02:46 PM
There should be no reporting from war zones, and to a large degree, what happens in that society should not be under the scrutiny of the rest of us.
+1. This isn't a case of head in the sand, it's that the reporters being there make it worse. A classic case in the middle east is that since reporters were allowed in, the command will try to avoid anything "distasteful" even if the more "tasteful" approach yeilds higher civilian casualties. One lecture I attended on information warfare detailed a case study where civilian casualties were 3-4 x higher as a result of media presence. Normally, there'd be a short sharp bombing and bout of artillery fire, lots of casualties over a short sharp space of time and then advance and seize it. Because invariably a proportion of these miss their proposed targets (or are mistargeted in the first place), there a civilian casualties. All it needs is to hit one wrong building and you have a news crew to show some footage of some kids in bits and there is a furore in the press.
As horrible as this is, it's vastly prefereable to the alternative. Now they choose things which are more insidious and low key. Turning off the water is a favourite- stop their water supply and they have no chance to surrender, right? On the face of it, this is much more paletable and "ethical" than bombing. Sadly, it results in a far higher number of non-combatatants being killed. The troops tend to have reserves of water which allows them to hold out for a week or so, far longer than the civilians. Typically, it is children (not babies though- they have excellent water retention) and the elderly who die first. Still, footage of a body that has died from thirst is much less shocking than one in bits from a bomb and it's not even immediately apparent that it's directly caused by the war, so it's more "acceptable". One former intelligence officer I spoke to believed that journalists in warzones were the single biggest cause of civilian casualties.
So much of what is done in our modern world is ****ed up by well intentioned idiots deciding what is acceptable. :(
Wayluya
05-08-08, 06:32 PM
Keeping the Media out of the War Zone? I would be all for it if the UK (or any of it's allies) had the ability to fight a War properly - but with their Armies being provided only with the ability to fight battles and skirmishes (albeit usually well) leaving the military alone to do what they like with no recourse would be counterproductive, as more than enuf of them would do what they like. It's human nature. You have to bear in mind that "we" always have to talk peace long before the opposition so having to also be nice to those we are meant to be fighting means not only not killing too many but at the least being seen trying not to do so. No surprise then that after declaring "victory" it hasn't actually felt like winning for a long time........
The Basket
05-08-08, 06:38 PM
The Forces are about gathering a bunch of people and skills together with the sole purpose of defending this country, whether it be on Land, Sea or Air.
The people who serve in the Forces ARE different to those of us who dont, they need to be trained, conditioned to react as and how they are ordered, when they are ordered without hesitation or people may die, they also have to be trained to do things that those of us not in their position would find distasteful or even in some cases, wrong.
There should be no reporting from war zones, and to a large degree, what happens in that society should not be under the scrutiny of the rest of us.
My last Sergeant was a complete and total :toss:.
I am supposed to respect an idiot?
gettin2dizzy
05-08-08, 08:18 PM
However I do believe that the current PC world is completely incompatible with what the Forces are about.
There should be no reporting from war zones, and to a large degree, what happens in that society should not be under the scrutiny of the rest of us.
Couldn't disagree more.
It us OUR armed forces, employed by OUR Government, elected by yours truly ;) To have them operate without scrutiny leads to all kinds of nasty things. Read a history book; it's full of these tales :thumbsup:
Blaming the country for being 'too PC' for every wrong doing in the country is absurd. We're not a bunch of raving lunatics who take offense at every apparent wrongdoing. Read the papers every day and you may think so, but speak to the majority of the people, and you'll soon realise it's all twaddle. Every news story about 'too PC' always comes back to a simple pathetic attempt at self promotion of some obscure fraction (often directly from the cabinet itself ;)), which is then jumped upon to make a headline that fills forum pages :smt081
Will beasting continue? Of course.
Should the media report from war zones? Of course.
We are all partly responsible for the deaths of all walks of life who have played a part in this conflict. This is our war. The media bring the reality of the situation back home, in to our comfy living rooms with our TV dinners. If we are to show a shed of respect for human kind, we need to know what it is we are funding.
Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think hard before starting a war. -Otto Von Bismark
War is a much too serious matter to be entrusted to the military. - George Clemenceau
To gather how distanced we already are from this dirty conflict, read the top 5 'read stories' on the BBC:
1. Orgasm at the touch of a button
2. Laughter threatens woman's health
3. Leona Lewis up for US MTV award
4. Guinea takes control of it's minerals
5. Firm claim first pet dog clones
The Basket
05-08-08, 08:39 PM
I feel a movie quote coming on...
Son, we live in a world that has walls and those walls need to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lieutenant Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and curse the Marines; you have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives and that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use then as the backbone of a life trying to defend something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest that you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.
lukemillar
05-08-08, 10:41 PM
Couldn't disagree more.
It us OUR armed forces, employed by OUR Government, elected by yours truly ;) To have them operate without scrutiny leads to all kinds of nasty things. Read a history book; it's full of these tales :thumbsup:
Blaming the country for being 'too PC' for every wrong doing in the country is absurd. We're not a bunch of raving lunatics who take offense at every apparent wrongdoing. Read the papers every day and you may think so, but speak to the majority of the people, and you'll soon realise it's all twaddle. Every news story about 'too PC' always comes back to a simple pathetic attempt at self promotion of some obscure fraction (often directly from the cabinet itself ;)), which is then jumped upon to make a headline that fills forum pages :smt081
Will beasting continue? Of course.
Should the media report from war zones? Of course.
We are all partly responsible for the deaths of all walks of life who have played a part in this conflict. This is our war. The media bring the reality of the situation back home, in to our comfy living rooms with our TV dinners. If we are to show a shed of respect for human kind, we need to know what it is we are funding.
To gather how distanced we already are from this dirty conflict, read the top 5 'read stories' on the BBC:
1. Orgasm at the touch of a button
2. Laughter threatens woman's health
3. Leona Lewis up for US MTV award
4. Guinea takes control of it's minerals
5. Firm claim first pet dog clones
I take offence to that. I do not eat TV dinners! :wink::p
ethariel
05-08-08, 11:35 PM
Ex Forces here too (ok ex RAF i must admit - and no it's not 5 star hotels! they usually start out as 3 stars but have to be brought up to scratch!!) but seriously...
Beasting always was and still is (even tho its a really patheticaly small shadow of it's former self) part of the way of life of being in the forces.
From a personal point of viewe, i would be 10000000% happier serving with a bunch of lads (or lasses) that manage to shrug off a bit of verbal and the odd physical 'roughing up' than with a lot of lip trembeling liberals who consider being shouted at for messing up enough to get not just him but all his mates dead too! to be against his human rights.
If you cant hack a bit of name calling from someone who wont actually do any lasting harm to you (as its not the done thing and has'nt since Bootnecks got thier name) then what use are you going to be in a forigen country where its not just names being tossed at you.
Just my personal opinion and willing to be flamed to death for it.
(Afterall i have been 'forced' into taking part in some really deviant activites - Being trained to kill, learning when to 'shut the F*** up!, and to listen to my betters AND when to question whether the ar$e with rings on his sleeve really should call a W.O.1 a jumped up old fart.......and the dance of the flaming ar$eholes for those tho know!)
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