Front Brake - Rear Brake?

[Stradders]

Just been on SVRider.com and found an interesting thread about front versus back brake.

As I am new to riding and still trying to get some confidence I would welcome some advice on what the general opinions are on brake use. When I did my DA, the teaching was to use the front brake for everything (including emergency stops) except slow speed and U-turns.

I must admit, since getting the SV I have got out of the habit of using the back brake, which I know I must re-learn. I am just looking for advice on what sort of percentage people use and also how much engine braking people use.

Also, I would like advice on any pitfalls on using brakes. I already know about not using them in turns. Learnt that one on my DA :confused:

Link to the SVRider.com thread attached below.

Thanks for your time.

http://forum.svrider.com/showthread.php?t=81370

[SHStroller68]

Instructor told me to use back then front. Never front on its on. Good idea to start using back more its more forgiving than the front.
Just remember to use them, check wear regularly and don't scrimp on replacements. YOU NEED UM!!!!

[fizzwheel]

When I did my DA, the teaching was to use the front brake for everything (including emergency stops) except slow speed and U-turns.

Thats what I was taught and thats how I ride. If you're new to riding I'd stick with what your instructor taught you and get some miles under your belt and then start experimenting and find something you are comfortable with.

You will stop faster if you use the front and back brakes together though.

[Dangerous Dave]

Thats what I was taught and thats how I ride. If you're new to riding I'd stick with what your instructor taught you and get some miles under your belt and then start experimenting and find something you are comfortable with.

You will stop faster if you use the front and back brakes together though.
Spot on.

I use the back brake a fair bit actually, more in the wet as it holds the bike more composed. I tend to use it a lot for slow speed filtering, anybody who has tried this will understand, plus the higher revs makes you heard a bit more.

In the dry, well thats mainly to keep the front wheel down on the 750 but it is very handy for high speed tight turns and of course to help straighten up when aiming for an apex on fast approaches.

[chakraist]

Instructor told me to use back then front. Never front on its on. Good idea to start using back more its more forgiving than the front.

I would immediately disregard what your instructor said- but the back brake is useful to me, I have to try and actively use it more, I'm just to just balancing everything on the front.

[Dangerous Dave]

Instructor told me to use back then front. Never front on its own.
Hmmm... for novices to moderately skilled riders I would say the following is more applicable, as advised by the police out riders (not your dozy motorcycle copper).

In the wet - Yes
Slow speed - Yes
In the dry at moderate to fast speeds - No, use the front as it is the primary brake.

[neio79]

Instructor told me to use back then front. Never front on its on. Good idea to start using back more its more forgiving than the front.
Just remember to use them, check wear regularly and don't scrimp on replacements. YOU NEED UM!!!!
I am amazed you passed with an istructor that dumb!! Why do you think the front of the bike has the two big discs and two calipers?? because they are meant to be used more than the rear.

[Dangerous Dave]

Wasn't there a thread last week or two about all this???

[custard]

Just been on SVRider.com and found an interesting thread about front versus back brake.

As I am new to riding and still trying to get some confidence I would welcome some advice on what the general opinions are on brake use. When I did my DA, the teaching was to use the front brake for everything (including emergency stops) except slow speed and U-turns.

I must admit, since getting the SV I have got out of the habit of using the back brake, which I know I must re-learn. I am just looking for advice on what sort of percentage people use and also how much engine braking people use.

Also, I would like advice on any pitfalls on using brakes. I already know about not using them in turns. Learnt that one on my DA :confused:

Link to the SVRider.com thread attached below.

Thanks for your time.

http://forum.svrider.com/showthread.php?t=81370



stick to what he taught you. :smt040

[Biker Biggles]

Dont know if it is different now but it used to be that you failed the test if you didnt use both brakes for the emergency stop.
Maybe I misunderstood what your instructor meant?
As for the question,the front brake is for stopping power,and the rear helps a bit,but is mainly for control and stability.I would advocate using both brakes,thus training yourself to ease on both controls without grabbing or stamping.As this becomes second nature progressive braking happens naturally and you dont have to think too much about it.

[Gene genie]

all good points above. the only time i never use the front brake is on the gravelly stuff, ball bearings, back brake every time. also mid-corner when i've carried a little too much speed and i need to scrub a little off. come on guys we've all done it.

[littleperson]

I was told to use front brake then back especially on emergency stop. Back for down hill and slow manouveres
Tend to use both anyway always front first then apply back

Nowt ever straight forward and easy:rolleyes:

[sinbad]

The brakes are like a singing duet. They work best as a pair.
Certainly the front is the lead vocalist whilst the rear is more harmonies and backing vocals with the occasional brief solo, but if you took either away the one you're left with, however talented, would seem incomplete.

[Beenz]

For me, well this is whatr I've been doing since I started riding a bike.

Dry weather: Brake distribution 75% front, 25% rear

Wet weather: Brake distribution 50% front, 50% rear

When cornering: steady rear only

[Troy]

... also mid-corner when i've carried a little too much speed and i need to scrub a little off. come on guys we've all done it.

Save the traction and just lean it a little more. ;) :p

I'm guilty of that too though. I normally use my back brake for anywhere from 5-30% of my braking, depending on the conditions. Except for this last weekend... I wasn't able to get the parts I needed to replaced a torn brake hose in time for the ride-out, so I went with no back brake. I never really noticed how much I use it for slow-speed stops and corner preparation until I didn't have it!!!

[northwind]

I can't get on SVR at work, but I bet you 10p that the thread's full of people saying "Racers never use the back brake, so you shouldn't either" "The back brake will only get you in trouble" and most importantly "The rear brake's useless because when you're using the front brake fully the rear wheel is off the ground".

Do I win?

[Baph]

This weekend I've covered probably 200 miles. The only time I've touched either brake was either:
- To show my brake lights to traffic behind me.
- In the last second or so of stopping as the clutch was pulled in.

Engine braking all the way for me, unless something unexpected happens. Then, assuming dry to moderately wet conditions & the bike is upright, front brake. If I'm still approaching too quickly & engine braking isn't good enough combined with the front brake, I'll use the rear brake.

I ride like that pretty much all the time these days, and even when I'm hooning around, use the engine braking probably 80-90% of the time.

In seriously wet weather I'll use the rear a little more, other than that, the rear brake is reserved for u-turns/slippy road surfaces.

[Troy]

Engine braking all the way for me, unless something unexpected happens.

Isn't it easier and cheaper to replace worn rear pads than a worn clutch? :)

[Stradders]

Thanks for all the really good gen. I'm actually out of the country at the moment (stuck in the Middle East for 2 months and it sucks) so am bikeless at the moment but will put some of the tips above to good use when I get back. Guess I need to re-learn to use the back again as I am out of the habit.

Probably shouldn't say too much, but on my DA my instructor said that I should cover the back brake to make it look like it was being used, but only to use the front as it would be too easy to lock the back wheel and that is an instant fail (although at 30 mph, I could probably have put my boots down on the road and stopped just as quickly).


Thanks to all that have already replied. I look forward to more replies and advice if anyone esle out there wants to comment. Need all the help I can get at the moment.

Ride safe.

Stradders

[Baph]

Isn't it easier and cheaper to replace worn rear pads than a worn clutch? :)

Please enlighten me as to how engine braking wears on the clutch any more than normal riding.

Gearbox has more stress possibly, pistons & rings almost certainly, chain, yup, but clutch?

[Troy]

Please enlighten me as to how engine braking wears on the clutch any more than normal riding.

The following is an attempt at educational enlightenment... If your post was rhetorical, feel free to skip to the end!

The whole reason engine braking works is that the engine is turning slower than the rear wheel (via the sprockets, chain, crank, transmission, clutch, etc). If you're just downshifting and dumping the clutch, then you're passing those stresses off (mostly) to the chain, transmission, tires, and engine. There's a lot of force on the clutch during this, but not a lot of slippage friction, actually... But if you opt for a more controlled engine braking where you downshift and feather the clutch in a little slower, a lot of those same deceleration energies are expended in the clutch via friction.

Now, the clutch is DESIGNED for friction obviously, it's what it does! But any deceleration done via the engine instead of the brakes runs that energy through the rest of the driveline (expensive parts) vs. the brakepads (relatively cheap, compared to engine parts).

Under "normal" driving you should probably be using front brake, rear brake, and engine braking, so the extra force on the clutch vs. just engine braking is small... But it is there! ;)

[yorkie_chris]

slow speed filtering, anybody who has tried this will understand, plus the higher revs makes you heard a bit more.

In the dry, well thats mainly to keep the front wheel down on the 750 but it is very handy for high speed tight turns and of course to help straighten up when aiming for an apex on fast approaches.

Whassat then? :-P

[yorkie_chris]

Troy, if you match the revs correctly then the clutch isn't slipping for long at all, there's little stress on the gearbox and no big clunk through the drivetrain.

Oh yeah and a set of friction plates isn't stupidly more expensive than a full set of decent pads.

[Baph]

The whole reason engine braking works is that the engine is turning slower than the rear wheel (via the sprockets, chain, crank, transmission, clutch, etc). If you're just downshifting and dumping the clutch, then you're passing those stresses off (mostly) to the chain, transmission, tires, and engine. There's a lot of force on the clutch during this, but not a lot of slippage friction, actually... But if you opt for a more controlled engine braking where you downshift and feather the clutch in a little slower, a lot of those same deceleration energies are expended in the clutch via friction.

Now, the clutch is DESIGNED for friction obviously, it's what it does! But any deceleration done via the engine instead of the brakes runs that energy through the rest of the driveline (expensive parts) vs. the brakepads (relatively cheap, compared to engine parts).

Under "normal" driving you should probably be using front brake, rear brake, and engine braking, so the extra force on the clutch vs. just engine braking is small... But it is there! ;)

I would assume that this is the reason BikeSafe/IAM/RoSPA suggest that engine braking should be used before other forms of braking?

I did BikeSafe yesterday in fact, and covered a good 70 miles through various situations (mostly NSL, but also less than 5mph in town). I rode as per my previous post. EDIT: I've ridden this bike in the same manner (mostly) for the last 36k miles, the only clutch adjustment it's required is the cable due to a little stretching. Still on the original cable/friction plates etc. I'm now on my second full set of brake pads.

As Yorkie_Chris, don't slip the clutch for long (and it's always far less than a second), but more importantly, do it at the right time and there's no noticable extra load placed on anything. That's the good thing about v-twins, buckets of torque, which can be used for engine braking.

Next you'll be chastising me for up (and down) shifting without touching the clutch at all... :lol:

[Troy]

Next you'll be chastising me for up (and down) shifting without touching the clutch at all... :lol:

:lol: I know that it doesn't hurt the transmission if done at the right RPMs and speed where things line up, but it just "feels" wrong, like I'm abusing my bike!
...
...
Didn't stop me from doing it yesterday toward the end of a 400 mile ride and a REALLY tired clutch hand though! ;)

[injury_ian]

stuff

stuff

+1 to Baph - and I rarely agree with him lol

I ride (in accordance with Roadcraft) in mid revs so that if i need to speed up I'm at a very responsive rev zone, and if i need to slow, a lot can be done just by backing off throttle (which is all engine braking is at the end of the day.)

and a further 2p, I use front and back brakes depending on what I feel the bike doing.

[Troy]

+1 to Baph - and I rarely agree with him lol

Unfortunately, I'll have to agree with him too. ;) I was assuming he meant more agressive downshifts with lots of clutch vs. just backing off the throttle at mid-range RPMs. And we see what assuming got me...

[Dangerous Dave]

Whassat then? :-P
Something some copper tried explaining to me one day, went over my head. ;)

[Stradders]

Interesting stuff. Thanks to all of you who have written back.

Now back from the Middle East and have been out a couple of times. Have tried using the rear more often but have also found that engine braking helps a lot. It still doesn't feel that comfortable but I am sure with a bit more practise I'll get used to it.

[Griffo]

I use engine braking a hell of a lot, but as we probably all know, it spoils you, and I have to consciously make an effort to dab the brakes so following traffic doesn't end me. Specifically when on the M4 and it's full of... cars!

As for brakes, I use back more now, after locking the front :/ caused bad things to happen heh, but always more front.

It's a love hate thing with the engine braking. It's helped me a lot I reckon with saving me from having to brake after going in a little too hot for a corner. But when people are behind, I find it awkward not braking overly brisk when letting off and braking, if you get my meaning.

[yorkie_chris]

Oh yeah just one more complication. Just did clutch on mine as it was getting a bit knackered... took less time than brake service...

[thedonal]

I use engine breaking a lot as it's easier and means a bit of planning ahead- means you are giving yourself space to react to things. Obviously, though, there is no brake light to warn those behind you what's going on.

However, I was taught front brake first then back just after- 80-20 in dry, 50-50 in wet. This is down to the way the weight distribution of the bike changes and pushes the tyre rubber into the ground- if you are heavy handed with the back brake (using it without the front brake), it doesn't load up properly for enough grip, so is more likely to skid, whereas if you're heavier with the front, all of the bike's weight pushes it and gives more downforce onto the road and more grip, so you can follow with the back brake as well and it has less work to do and assists the front brake.

The best I've found is a combination of engine compression and both brakes- so if you're in the right gear, at the right revs, stopping is far quicker.

For sharp corners, I'll slow with both brakes, but drag the back brake while in the corner to stop.

[yorkie_chris]

Back brake is unloaded with ANY braking force!

You can brake 100-0, with hot tyre and clean road, chassis geometry is limit, not grip. (stoppies before it skids).

[plowsie]

Only back brake for me in the wet. Unless as said something unexpected happens. But once again a mostly engine braker.

[vardypeeps]

Yeah I was tought rear then front brake. Best way to see if you need it is go to your fav road and ride up to your usual corner and use only the front brake and see how long it takes to slow to your corner speed etc. Then same speed same corner use a little bit of back brake and then a bit more and a bit more till you find how much pressure to use before you lock it. Then see how much shorter your braking distance is!

[tony_sv650sy]

Definately front break first as thedonal says


I was taught front brake first then back just after- 80-20 in dry, 50-50 in wet. This is down to the way the weight distribution of the bike changes and pushes the tyre rubber into the ground- if you are heavy handed with the back brake (using it without the front brake), it doesn't load up properly for enough grip, so is more likely to skid, whereas if you're heavier with the front, all of the bike's weight pushes it and gives more downforce onto the road and more grip, so you can follow with the back brake as well and it has less work to do and assists the front brake.

Just to add tho, dont snatch the front as it will lock up if the weight distribution hasnt transfered to the front. You brake gently for half a second until weight moves forward, then gradually squeeze harder and harder.

As the weight distribution moves over to the front wheel, the rear wheel becomes a lot lighter and is prone to lock.

Always front first, then a bit of rear.

If you are coming to a standstill, then below 10mph use rear only and it stops the front dipping when you stop.