View Full Version : so she obviously deserved it...
I know this type of thing normally ends in a locked thread somewhere along the line but I still dont see why it cant be brought up.... this article... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7555299.stm ... has really angered me.
They are in effect saying that because a woman drinks she is obviously asking to be raped and shouldnt be given as much compensation for when it happens! What century are we living in!!!:smt094:smt094
They are in effect saying that because a woman drinks she is obviously asking to be raped and shouldnt be given as much compensation for when it happens! What century are we living in!!!:smt094:smt094
I thought that that decision had been overturned.
wyrdness
12-08-08, 12:21 PM
They are in effect saying that because a woman drinks she is obviously asking to be raped and shouldnt be given as much compensation for when it happens! What century are we living in!!!:smt094:smt094
Did you read the article properly? They're actually saying the opposite.
It [the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority] has issued a statement acknowledging it should not have happened in any case and confirming it is not its policy to reduce compensation for rape victims because of alcohol consumption.
seems like a non story to me...
It has but there are still a number of other cases out there that havent as yet!..
sorry post was written hastily I understand that this article is saying that they have now reviewed it etc I'm just stunned that it was ever the case that compensation would be cut if alcohol was involved.
The story this morning was that this decision had been overturned, and that several other cases where a similar verdict had been reached were going to be examined.
It is not, as far as I am aware a current policy that a woman is deemed to have been partly responsible for the rape if she had alcohol in her system.
Chill hon ;)
Jambo
Edit: in the first instance, a bad result was reached, this is why we have an appeals procedure, which has worked.
The story this morning was that this decision had been overturned, and that several other cases where a similar verdict had been reached were going to be examined.
It is not, as far as I am aware a current policy that a woman is deemed to have been partly responsible for the rape if she had alcohol in her system.
Chill hon ;)
Jambo
Edit: in the first instance, a bad result was reached, this is why we have an appeals procedure, which has worked.
...sorry see post above... I wasnt getting out of my pram over this decision only over the fact that it was initially procedure!
the_lone_wolf
12-08-08, 12:29 PM
without knowing the ins and outs of this case i'll say take these comments in a general sense, not aimed at this woman at all...
but...
what if a woman has drunk so much that they are struggling to stay on their feet?
what if they are so drunk they don't know what they're doing and consent to things that they wouldn't do when sober?
obviously having a drink or two in no way excuses the act of someone raping you, but sorry, you have to accept the consequences of getting so drunk you're not with it, if it's losing your phone, having your bag taken when you pass out, getting raped or even being killed when you stumble accross the road/railway tracks.
her lawyer's argument was that drinking has no effect on someone being raped, which in my view is tosh - if they were so drunk they couldn't resist or shout for help, or even cause them to consent to sex and then decide later they want to call it rape, they have brought the vunerability on themselves by acting in an irresponsible way, and although they didn't cause the attempt of rape to happen (unless the rapist was looking for someone who was an easy target?), their condition aggravated the results
so, flame suit donned, bunker locked - "Submit Reply"...
21QUEST
12-08-08, 12:29 PM
I hate our compensation culture.....
And of course , alcohol can be a contributing factor in cases(not talkign just about rape cases here)......
Ben
21QUEST
12-08-08, 12:31 PM
without knowing the ins and outs of this case i'll say take these comments in a general sense, not aimed at this woman at all...
but...
what if a woman has drunk so much that they are struggling to stay on their feet?
what if they are so drunk they don't know what they're doing and consent to things that they wouldn't do when sober?
obviously having a drink or two in no way excuses the act of someone raping you, but sorry, you have to accept the consequences of getting so drunk you're not with it, if it's losing your phone, having your bag taken when you pass out, getting raped or even being killed when you stumble accross the road/railway tracks.
her lawyer's argument was that drinking has no effect on someone being raped, which in my view is tosh - if they were so drunk they couldn't resist or shout for help, or even cause them to consent to sex and then decide later they want to call it rape, they have brought the vunerability on themselves by acting in an irresponsible way, and although they didn't cause the attempt of rape to happen (unless the rapist was looking for someone who was an easy target?), their condition aggravated the results
so, flame suit donned, bunker locked - "Submit Reply"...
Good post.
Ben
..unfortunately your not on your own in this way of thinking .. a very intriguing radio interview i've been listening to this morning also had similar views on this!..
I actually believe that in no way should the fact that you have been drinking affect any sort of compensation you get or sway anyones judgement about the fact that rape is rape. I'm sorry but a consequence of getting drunk in my mind is having a good night with good friends.. not getting raped, losing my bag etc it's poposturous to say such a thing.
What your saying is that it's their own fault that they are unable to defend themselves because they are drunk.. not that they might have been targeted for that reason..why should someone have to run away or defend themselves!.. It shouldnt happen in the first place.
SoulKiss
12-08-08, 12:35 PM
so, flame suit donned, bunker locked - "Submit Reply"...
Room in that bunker for one more?
While I think that rape is in many ways a worse crime than murder, alcohol DOES lower your ability to make decisions.
Decisions such as "Should I take this shortcut through this alley, rather than sticking to the main streets" or "well an unlicensed cab will be cheaper".
That can lead into dangerous situations.
I think that the right decision has been made if there is no reduction in compensation in the case mentioned, but putting yourself in the way of harm does mean you are contibuting to anything that happens.
SoulKiss
12-08-08, 12:40 PM
why should someone have to run away or defend themselves!.. It shouldnt happen in the first place.
They shouldn't but you are living in Disneyland if you think you can get away with ignoring the posibility.
Everything we do is a risk, crossing the street, getting on a bike, whatever.
Adding alcohol to the mix just increases some risks.
No woman should EVER be blamed for being raped, and I definately dont buy the people who say that wearing certain clothing means they were "asking for it", I used to goto The Slimelight years ago and I would see girls wearing, well not a lot, and there was never any trouble of that kind.
It is however VERY nieve not to know that there are people out there that will take advantage of you if they think they are weaker, or less capeable than someone else.
Like the 3 guys who tried to mug me outside my front door (well in the street) after I had had a few drinks.
Seems that some people are confusing the issue. Being drunk probably does make you more likely to be a victim of crime due to being less careful than you would otherwise be. But, that doesn't mean that you deserve to have bad stuff happen to you or make it your fault.
I hate the blame culture as much as the next person but this isnt part of the blame culture this is a crime that has been committed against another person and so some sort of comensation is yes justified!
David I'm sorry but I just disagree with this view your saying that decisions that you make such make you be held accountable for whether you are raped or not. I'm sorry I dont see it this way rape is something that happens to you, that take your choices out of your hands it's not consenting hence the term rape.. therefore surely the idea of whether you have been drinking or not is irrelevant!
Caddy2000
12-08-08, 12:47 PM
Is there one single answer to this issue? I can't say that there is, but the way alcohol is treated in our society does cause major issues. With rape though, just because you're drunk and decide to take a different route doesn't mean in my mind that 'you're asking for it', but being so drunk that you can't remember consenting to sex is entering a very grey area.
I've been out in Southend enough to see what 'young ladies' get up to when they're slaughtered, and the blokes that they're doing it with in the middle of the street are just as ****ed!
One think I'm sure about, the only way that this issue will get better is with the way we view and consume alcohol.
Like the 3 guys who tried to mug me outside my front door (well in the street) after I had had a few drinks.
.. and you see that it's your fault you got mugged because you had a few drinks?
Listen I fully understand where you are going with this so drinking puts you in a position that is vunerable.. but so is doing a lot of things .. does that mean that you shouldnt do it .. or when you do you are not able to have the crime commited against you recognised as after all you werent in complete control?
the_lone_wolf
12-08-08, 12:48 PM
I'm sorry but a consequence of getting drunk in my mind is having a good night with good friends.. not getting raped, losing my bag etc it's poposturous to say such a thing.
you go out specifically to get drunk?:confused:
i never said the act of raped was caused by someone being drunk, although you must surely be able to see how being completely rat-arsed makes you a likely target for someone looking out for a victim and reduces your ability to defend yourself?
What your saying is that it's their own fault that they are unable to defend themselves because they are drunk..no, i specifically said in my previous post that there is no excuse for raping someone, but if you make yourself vunerable through your own irresponsible actions you might not like it but you should accept the consequences of your own stupidity
SoulKiss
12-08-08, 12:50 PM
David I'm sorry but I just disagree with this view your saying that decisions that you make such make you be held accountable for whether you are raped or not. I'm sorry I dont see it this way rape is something that happens to you, that take your choices out of your hands it's not consenting hence the term rape.. therefore surely the idea of whether you have been drinking or not is irrelevant!
I am not saying that she was not raped.
I am not saying that she does not deserve the full compensation that she is entitled to.
What I am saying is that if you do not do EVERYTHING you can to minimise what can happen to you, then you are are contributing to the situation.
How many threads do we have about wearing proper kit?
It has been said on here just today that anyone who is not riding properly kitted deserves everything that happens to them.
Walking the streets of London, alone, as a female, while having had a drink is the same as getting on your bike wearing speedos and a pair of flip-flops.
Its bad enough even when you are a bulky bearded bloke wearing bike kit at times and in places - I have been known to walk twice as far to get somewhere just because the shortcut didnt "feel right" at night in London.
I REALLY wish that the situation wasnt like it is, but not believing or allowing for it to be as it is is just naive.
Putting aside any particular offence, do you think the concept of contributory negligence has any place in a justice system?
For example leaving you car unlocked with the keys in the ignition doesn't change the offence if some toerag drives off in it [TWOC], but you won't get any compensation, as in your insurance company won't pay up. OK the insurance co. isn't part of the justice system as such, but you get the drift.
I wouldn't walk through certain areas of certain towns at night [or at any time come to that]. If I was mugged it wouldn't change the offence, but personally I'd feel I had been negligent and my actions had contributed to the result.
Maybe I still hang on to some archaic concept of personal responsibility, but I recognise there's a real world out there and no-one ever said it was fair..........
I heard this on 5live last night at work and couldnt beleive what I was hearing, it seems that in something like 14 cases women have only been entitled to 75% of the compensation they would have entitled to if they had been sober, look at it the other way it means the the rapist is only 75% guilty, and with the low result in successful rape cases anyway, well makes you think....
the_lone_wolf
12-08-08, 12:53 PM
What I am saying is that if you do not do EVERYTHING you can to minimise what can happen to you, then you are are contributing to the situation.
this is the crux of what i was trying to say, but you put it better:D
Not sure cutting "compensation" can be linked to blame. If the argument was that an offender got a reduced sentence due to their victim being drunk that would be different.
That said, if you can knock points off for being under the influence you ought to be able to do the same for any general stupidity and as that isn't enforceable why just pick on drinking.
you go out specifically to get drunk?:confused:
no i've never said that..
i never said the act of raped was caused by someone being drunk, although you must surely be able to see how being completely rat-arsed makes you a likely target for someone looking out for a victim and reduces your ability to defend yourself?
no, i specifically said in my previous post that there is no excuse for raping someone, but if you make yourself vunerable through your own irresponsible actions you might not like it but you should accept the consequences of your own stupidity
as previously said I understand where you are going with the whole getting drunk puts you in a vunerable position .. but your last paragraph here is bit confusing on the one hand your saying there isnt an excuse for rape but then on the other your saying that you should accept it if it happens and it's because of your own actions .. well rape isnt your choice???
the_lone_wolf
12-08-08, 12:55 PM
Putting aside any particular offence, do you think the concept of contributory negligence has any place in a justice system?
this wasn't about justice though, the guy was found guilty and sentenced accordingly, this was about compensation, which is something different
Walking the streets of London, alone, as a female, while having had a drink is the same as getting on your bike wearing speedos and a pair of flip-flops.
I understand your point of view I dont agree with it but I see what you are saying. My point is that once upon a time it was deemed that women brought it on themselves because of the provocative clothes they wore and now it seems that it's also because of alcohol consumtion.
the bloke who raped her might have been drunk
'What I am saying is that if you do not do EVERYTHING you can to minimise what can happen to you, then you are are contributing to the situation.' - SK quote
Bollox, I completely disagree.
I was shocked when I heard that the woman had had her compo cut because she'd been drinking. So what if she was pished, that does not contribute to a rape.
Ceri JC
12-08-08, 02:06 PM
Maybe I still hang on to some archaic concept of personal responsibility, but I recognise there's a real world out there and no-one ever said it was fair..........
Tricky one. I left my garage unlocked whilst on holiday once. Very very stupid on my part. Certainly negligent. Had it of been robbed, I'd still want the thief to be prosecuted the same as if they'd cropped the lock. At the same time, I'd not expect to receive as much payout from the insurer, if any. So, I suppose my POV is that the victim's foolishness shouldn't effect the custodial sentence being given out, but in terms of compensation recieved, perhaps.
On the (understandably touchy) subject of rape, if someone is heavily drunk- we're not talking one or two drinks chatty here- they are much less able to put up any sort of resistance. It in no way excuses the perpetrator of the offence, but I can imagine that there are a lot of people who would never rape someone 'by force' with the person kicking or screaming, yet at the same time would certainly consider 'taking advantage' of someone who was more than a bit worse for wear and probably not even think of this as 'rape' as such. I'm not talking passed out unconcious on the floor, but you know the sort of drunk- hardly able to talk, not coherent, still standing but swaying about, can't remember much the next day. Being like this doesn't make the victim responsible for it, but the sad truth is that it could often have been avoided had they been sober in the first place.
and then there's the angle of crying rape when in fact she was too pished to realise she consented....
but thats getting way off the initial subject....
and then there's the angle of crying rape when in fact she was too pished to realise she consented....
but thats getting way off the initial subject....
Surely you aren't capable of consenting if you are v drunk.
Blue_SV650S
12-08-08, 02:18 PM
Out of interest who foots the bill for this 'compensation'?
Is it me and thee or is it the defendant? :scratch:
Oh and how is money going to compensate for being raped? As society won’t let us chop his willy off, surely the dude being convicted, serving time* and then being put on the register so he is tracked in the future is the justice (that the law will allow)? Why does the victim need money? :scratch:
Further to this, is this not opening the flood gates for people making falsified claims just to get a payoff? Thus potentially reducing the likelihood of ‘real’ cases being taken ‘seriously’ and potentially seeing innocent/entrapped dudes in jail?
*where he will no doubt become someones b1tch and get 'violated' in the showers himself :shock: – now that IS justice ;)
Ceri JC
12-08-08, 02:37 PM
Surely you aren't capable of consenting if you are v drunk.
Certainly from a legal perspective and my POV, but some people are of the attitude that if you don't (or can't) explicitly say 'no' then you are up for it. How many people formally ask for an explicit 'yes' when having sex in general (be it with a stranger or a regular partner)?
the_lone_wolf
12-08-08, 02:39 PM
How many people formally ask for an explicit 'yes' when having sex in general (be it with a stranger or a regular partner)?
i've discovered by the time we've found two notaries and got to the contract signing she's kind of lost interest:rolleyes:
gettin2dizzy
12-08-08, 02:51 PM
I'm amazed so many of you can have such simplistic views. The big question is whether you can believe her evidence if she doesn't remember the situation. Alcohol can turn people in to such different creatures from their normal selves, and without a full recollection of events how could you possibly send a man to prison for rape. Based on hindsight?! Get a grip.
No girl deserves to be raped equally as much as no man deserves to be prosecuted for a life-ruining crime on a girls whim.
Ceri JC
12-08-08, 02:51 PM
i've discovered by the time we've found two notaries and got to the contract signing she's kind of lost interest:rolleyes:
This is why the legal expectation for a formal 'yes' seems a bit askew. If no one does it normally and this is turned a blind eye to the rest of the time, it seems a bit odd to retroactively expect it of someone once they're accused of rape. Of course, the argument that if you can't say 'no' you're game is unfair too: what about people in comas?
SoulKiss
12-08-08, 02:55 PM
i've discovered by the time we've found two notaries and got to the contract signing she's kind of lost interest:rolleyes:
Or to sum it up in song.....
Ya say "girl, you're a beauty", but I'm no beast
I got a little contract right here
See, you can slam on the brakes, anytime you got the stick
Even if we're in 4th gear
Cop in the front seat, lawyer in the back seat
Gettin' it on videotape
Got a shrink in the bed, lord, sittin' on the headboard
Swearin' that we both got raped
Biker Biggles
12-08-08, 03:02 PM
Good points about the difference between the crime itself which is (hopefully)dealt with by the courts,and compensation for the victim from the criminal injuries compensation agency.I heard an interview on Radio 4 this morning where a woman(not sure if she was a politician or from the CICA)was asked what the difference was between a rape victim(drunk) and a victim of a mugging(also drunk)vis a vis compensation.Todays story clearly says that rape victims are to get full compensation,but then why not drunk mugging victims?Of course there was no logical answer to this question.To me it shows the kind of hypocrisy that we are so familiar with in our society today.If you are one kind of victim you are entitled to full payment,but if you are another kind,its partly your fault.
Ceri JC
12-08-08, 03:02 PM
I'm amazed so many of you can have such simplistic views. The big question is whether you can believe her evidence if she doesn't remember the situation. Alcohol can turn people in to such different creatures from their normal selves, and without a full recollection of events how could you possibly send a man to prison for rape. Based on hindsight?! Get a grip.
No girl deserves to be raped equally as much as no man deserves to be prosecuted for a life-ruining crime on a girls whim.
You are completely right.
The following is completely true, not a wind up and no, I'd rather not go into the gory details, particularly on a public forum. I've twice had girls "take avantage" of me whilst I was properly drunk, not technically 'rape', but you could certainly call it sexual assault and in the latter case, if the mechanics of male/female genitalia were reversed I'm quite sure she'd of taken it that far. The way I recall it, I in no way led them on and told them to stop, before resorting to force to shove them away, at which point they got the picture. In both instances I was only just able to talk and in one, I was lying on the floor barely concious, so there's no way I'd trust my recollection of it to the degree needed to take any action. In the former, where I didn't know the girl concerned, I'd of really struggled to identify her at an ID parade. Of course, being a man, I was able to laugh them off as "silly drunken slappers" and didn't feel 'violated' as such, although it was certainly a very unpleasent experience at the time. Would either of incident happened if I'd been sober? No chance.
Ceri JC
12-08-08, 03:06 PM
Good points about the difference between the crime itself which is (hopefully)dealt with by the courts,and compensation for the victim from the criminal injuries compensation agency.I heard an interview on Radio 4 this morning where a woman(not sure if she was a politician or from the CICA)was asked what the difference was between a rape victim(drunk) and a victim of a mugging(also drunk)vis a vis compensation.Todays story clearly says that rape victims are to get full compensation,but then why not drunk mugging victims?Of course there was no logical answer to this question.To me it shows the kind of hypocrisy that we are so familiar with in our society today.If you are one kind of victim you are entitled to full payment,but if you are another kind,its partly your fault.
Very interesting, I wasn't aware of this discrepancy. To look at it another way, lets say at the end of the tax year we have £100,000 left in our compensation pot and 2 outstanding cases. Both rapes, in one the victim was by her own admission absolutely hammered and was seen willingly going off with the perpetrator minutes before the attack. In the other, a woman was walking home from work down a lane and grabbed by a guy who threated her with a knife and then raped her. How would you split the money? 50:50 doesn't seem very just to me...
jimmy__riddle
12-08-08, 03:13 PM
few years back i got a little too drunk at a party, went to sleep upstairs and woke up with someone taking my trousers off with a condom in her hands! (she had been trying it on with me for a while before that night). i was so drunk talking was difficult enough, let alone what she wanted to do, so she gave up and left me to sleep. never spoke to her again after that, so couldnt confirm if i had given in to her persistance or she just took advantage. As it was unclear to me exactly what happened i never said anything. Although a blokes mind works differently i guess. i wouldn't have minded if she was good looking!
Very interesting, I wasn't aware of this discrepancy. To look at it another way, lets say at the end of the tax year we have £100,000 left in our compensation pot and 2 outstanding cases. Both rapes, in one the victim was by her own admission absolutely hammered and was seen willingly going off with the perpetrator minutes before the attack. In the other, a woman was walking home from work down a lane and grabbed by a guy who threated her with a knife and then raped her. How would you split the money? 50:50 doesn't seem very just to me...
Can I adjust your example?
In one the victim was by her own admission absolutely hammered and climbed into the first car that offered her a lift home. In the other, a woman was walking home from work down a lane. How would you split the money?
Surely you aren't capable of consenting if you are v drunk.
well she diddnt say no either did she?
well she diddnt say no either did she?
That's irrelevant.
No girl deserves to be raped equally as much as no man deserves to be prosecuted for a life-ruining crime on a girls whim.
agreed, to many girls are damaging the cause for prrosecution as they get drunk, sleep with a bloke regret it and cry rape!! why well chances are guilt as they are married etc and its eaiser to cry rape and ruin an innocent blokes life than admit they f**ked up!!
I hate any woman who would do that.
That's irrelevant.
i know i was stiring (again) ;)
i know i was stiring (again) ;)
really?:rolleyes: how unlike you
really?:rolleyes: how unlike you
you know you love it really!! well you didnt say you dont , therefore you do!! ;)
Ceri JC
12-08-08, 03:36 PM
Can I adjust your example?
In one the victim was by her own admission absolutely hammered and climbed into the first car that offered her a lift home. In the other, a woman was walking home from work down a lane. How would you split the money?
Wouldn't make a difference to me, I'd still say the latter should get more compensation than the drunk one.
gettin2dizzy
12-08-08, 03:43 PM
agreed, to many girls are damaging the cause for prrosecution as they get drunk, sleep with a bloke regret it and cry rape!! why well chances are guilt as they are married etc and its eaiser to cry rape and ruin an innocent blokes life than admit they f**ked up!!
I hate any woman who would do that.
I learn more and more every day that most women are compulsive liars. Unlike men, they seem to justify the lie to themselves which makes it the "right" thing to do. Flame me all you like, but I'm yet to experience otherwise.
If you walked through soho at 4am with £50 notes stapled to your body, you won't deserve to be mugged. But you WILL have contributed to the situation. It would not justify the mugging but it does play a part in the whole scenario. You have to take precautionary actions rather than rely on the state to react. Hospitals are not there to 'fix' you so you can be reckless, nor are the police there to recover your possessions if you aren't willing to lock your front door.
Wouldn't make a difference to me, I'd still say the latter should get more compensation than the drunk one.
How about bad judgment vs inebriation?
In one the victim was by her own admission absolutely hammered and climbed into the first car that offered her a lift home. In the other, a woman finished work late & missed the last train home. She accepted a lift from a stranger. How would you split the money?
How about bad judgment vs inebriation?
In one the victim was by her own admission absolutely hammered and climbed into the first car that offered her a lift home. In the other, a woman finished work late & missed the last train home. She accepted a lift from a stranger. How would you split the money?
neither deserve compensation, they deserve justice!!
gettin2dizzy
12-08-08, 03:50 PM
How about bad judgment vs inebriation?
In one the victim was by her own admission absolutely hammered and climbed into the first car that offered her a lift home. In the other, a woman finished work late & missed the last train home. She accepted a lift from a stranger. How would you split the money?
This is a pointless exercise. This isn't a case about someone having a few glasses of wine and being raped. The case is about the uncertain prosectution when the victim isn't able to properly provide any recollection of the event.
This is a pointless exercise. This isn't a case about someone having a few glasses of wine and being raped. The case is about the uncertain prosectution when the victim isn't able to properly provide any recollection of the event.
Was personally wondering more about this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/aug/12/justice
"The Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority was under pressure today to give full payouts to at least 14 rape victims who had their awards cut because they had been drinking when they were attacked.
Justice minister Bridget Prentice called on the body to automatically review cases where women had been told their alcohol consumption had contributed to their fate, insisting it was not government policy to blame victims and the guidelines had been wrong applied."
But I believe you're right - it is a pointless excersise as I don't think you can generalise.
Ceri JC
12-08-08, 04:04 PM
neither deserve compensation, they deserve justice!!
This is true. I don't really see why the victim should get compensation unless it's from the criminal concerned (rather than the taxpayer) or the crime means that their usual avenues of income are cut off or that they inccur additional costs above those they would have had the crime not been committed.
DanAbnormal
12-08-08, 04:05 PM
neither deserve compensation, they deserve justice!!
+1
Money makes the whole thing seem a little cheap. Like they are only miffed because they are not getting as much money out of it. I've not read the articel so can't comment on that part. Being raped is the most single horrifying , life scarring experience a person can go through. How the hell they can even consider money as some form of justice is just as messed up.
I don't really see why the victim should get compensation unless it's from the criminal concerned (rather than the taxpayer) or the crime means that their usual avenues of income are cut off or that they inccur additional costs above those they would have had the crime not been committed.
Don't see why the taxpayer shouldn't foot the bill if the criminal concerned is skint or unavailable - like hospital costs, un-employment benefit etc. Other than that agreed.
take the compo from the criminals assets first.
I'm sorry but alcohol has nothing to do with it - neither the crime nor the compensation.
A person was RAPED. That means they were forced to have non-consensual sex. That means there was a RAPIST. The personality, background, inebriation, colour, clothes or anything else about the victim is irrelevant. Someone (the rapist) commited an offense against another (in this case woman but would equally apply to a man).
It really is that simple.
PS and as I recall financial compensation is available from the public purse for anyone who is the victim of a crime.
gettin2dizzy
12-08-08, 05:28 PM
I'm sorry but alcohol has nothing to do with it - neither the crime nor the compensation.
A person was RAPED. That means they were forced to have non-consensual sex. That means there was a RAPIST. The personality, background, inebriation, colour, clothes or anything else about the victim is irrelevant. Someone (the rapist) commited an offense against another (in this case woman but would equally apply to a man).
It really is that simple.
It is simple. But not like that.
If someone is raped, the rape is a crime regardless.
If someone wakes up with no recollection of the event, you can't claim rape as you can't be sure of your actions to tell if it was crime or not. Locking up an innocent man however; is a crime.
Don't be so quick to judge everyone as guilty.
It is simple. But not like that.
If someone is raped, the rape is a crime regardless.
If someone wakes up with no recollection of the event, you can't claim rape as you can't be sure of your actions to tell if it was crime or not. Locking up an innocent man however; is a crime.
Don't be so quick to judge everyone as guilty.
No I certainly don't mean to judge everyone as guilty. I do recognise the difficulties of establishing whether rape has occured or not. I wish it were otherwise.
I meant what I said in the context of when a case has been proved in court - then the characteristics of the victim should not matter.
One interesting point tho - in the op the rape was not established in court but the Met admitted making mistakes in the investigation. Compensation was awared anyway
Out of interest who foots the bill for this 'compensation'?
Is it me and thee or is it the defendant? :scratch:
Further to this, is this not opening the flood gates for people making falsified claims just to get a payoff? Thus potentially reducing the likelihood of ‘real’ cases being taken ‘seriously’ and potentially seeing innocent/entrapped dudes in jail?
unfortunately women have been known to abuse the system.. as have men.. but for the few that do that it shouldnt detract from those that have legitamate claims ... and yes there is a pot of money for compensation for victims of crime and, honestly i dont believe for one moment that the money is at the forefront of anyone's mind of having to go through the whole procedures that would lead to you getting a pay off!:rolleyes:
I'm amazed so many of you can have such simplistic views. The big question is whether you can believe her evidence if she doesn't remember the situation. No girl deserves to be raped equally as much as no man deserves to be prosecuted for a life-ruining crime on a girls whim.
Actually your right no man does deserve to be prosecuted for a girls whim.. however, if you are that drunk your clearly not consenting to it now are you??!!
Todays story clearly says that rape victims are to get full compensation,but then why not drunk mugging victims?Of course there was no logical answer to this question.To me it shows the kind of hypocrisy that we are so familiar with in our society today.If you are one kind of victim you are entitled to full payment,but if you are another kind,its partly your fault.
Absolutely right it's horrid that our laws are full of this hypocrisy but then i think this debate right here shows that actually some peoples views on it would be not to award any compensation at all.
I learn more and more every day that most women are compulsive liars. Unlike men, they seem to justify the lie to themselves which makes it the "right" thing to do. Flame me all you like, but I'm yet to experience otherwise.
Well I'm sorry your experiances to date have led you to this conclusion but, it is a generalisation and not something that in all seriousness you can make a blanket statement on!
Courts decide if a victim is a victim and unfortunately the procedure to go to court is horrid and so is their treatment whilst on the stand and through their case if heard at all.. and if they can get legal aid for it! Mainly they are treated on the stand as if they are lying and clearly gave consent which is why the majority of rape cases wont even get heard. A very sorry state of affairs when actually going through our own legal system very often just adds to the trauma of such a crime.
Wayluya
12-08-08, 05:54 PM
The original articles says that the Rapist was never caught. So whilst Plod evidently beleived her (or sounds like the Plod concerned didn't (I do not say rightly) and therefore bolloxed up the investigation in a way that later rebounded on them) no court case involved.
In any event, even after a Court Case and a Conviction I really do not see why compo should be paid from the State for any criminal injury - fair enuf the State takes what it can from the criminal on behalf of the victim, but why take the money from ME?????!!!
Being raped is the most single horrifying , life scarring experience a person can go through.
I make no claim that being raped is pleasant - but their are worse things.
Actually your right no man does deserve to be prosecuted for a girls whim.. however, if you are that drunk your clearly not consenting to it now are you??!!
.
Well she is clearly not saying dont do it either, hence this argument, how can she clearly say no i concented or not??
Just because she was drunk does not mean she said no or did not concent, just as it does not mean she was up for it. Hence the problem with Drunken regret rape cries.
I would imagine that was why it went to compensation because they had messed it up in some way!..
Wayluya...There is always something worse then a single event or crime if you thought about it hard enough however for some people it is the most horrific thing they will experiance.. I dont see why you feel the need to belittle DanAbnormal's statement by saying that there are worse things?
I make no claim that being raped is pleasant - but their are worse things.
Like?? for you maybe, but for the individual victem it may well be, so a little perspective on that may be in order.
Well she is clearly not saying dont do it either, hence this argument, how can she clearly say no i concented or not??
Just because she was drunk does not mean she said no or did not concent, just as it does not mean she was up for it. Hence the problem with Drunken regret rape cries.
.. and hence the argument that if you are that drunk you are in no fit state to consent and therefore it's rape?...that's the point that was trying to be made there not about the drunket regret rape cries it's not the same thing as having a one night stand regretting it in the morning and crying rape.. that is just wrong and messed up. I am talking about girls who are so drunk they cant talk and not in control they are in no fit state to consent to anything... therefore it would be rape.
.. and hence the argument that if you are that drunk you are in no fit state to consent and therefore it's rape. I am talking about girls who are so drunk they cant talk and not in control they are in no fit state to consent to anything... therefore it would be rape.
Then that is a bit more like date rape really.
oh here is one to throw in that may be even harder to prove Marital rape?? how can that really be proven?
oh here is one to throw in that may be even harder to prove Marital rape?? how can that really be proven?
each one is horrid and equally as yuck as the next one my point wasnt to break down each case it was only to throw this up as a point to say how in todays society it seems that people can still blame women for rape if she has had a few too many to drink. (I know that the case has now been reviewed it's just simply that it existed prior to this and went unchallenged for a length of time!).
I am so going to get told off for this but i heard its not rape if you shout surprise!!
Flamin_Squirrel
12-08-08, 06:24 PM
.. and hence the argument that if you are that drunk you are in no fit state to consent and therefore it's rape?
That point has already been made, but I'm afraid it's ******** for several reasons.
In the case of rape, the prime witness is the woman. If shes pished, her recollection of events could well be suspect. Doesn't matter you say? Well what's to say the guy isn't sloshed himself?
And how drunk is drunk anyway? Are men open to spurious claims of rape after sleeping with a girl who's had a glass of red?
Wayluya
12-08-08, 06:28 PM
Wayluya...There is always something worse then a single event or crime if you thought about it hard enough however for some people it is the most horrific thing they will experiance.. I dont see why you feel the need to belittle DanAbnormal's statement by saying that there are worse things?
Not my intention to belittle - perhaps I should not have picked up on it / tacked it on the end of my post. But was an unequivocal statement which stuck in my mind and I considered OTT (on reflection possibly not intentionally), your statement is more qualified - albeit I would add that if you need to think about it "hard enough", then you are very fortunate.
Not my intention to belittle - perhaps I should not have picked up on it / tacked it on the end of my post. But was an unequivocal statement which stuck in my mind and I considered OTT (on reflection possibly not intentionally), your statement is more qualified - albeit I would add that if you need to think about it "hard enough", then you are very fortunate.
I'm certainly not getting into a discussion about this it's not my intention to start a debate about who's life has been worse as often happens in these sorts of discussions that isnt what this thread is about!
I was pointing out the fact that you had just quite heavily slammed someone else's opinion... but fair enough I understand that you have your own opinon about it as well.
FS .. I dont think it's relevant as to how much a person has to drink as getting back to the original point really the two shouldnt have anything to do with each other .. it's irrelvant to consider that a rape case shouldnt be given the same treatment if either parties have been drinking.
I'm not going to get into the whole argument as to what is too much to drink needless to say that I wasnt talking about a few glasses of wine in my previous posts I was saying that if a man/woman cant remember what has happened the night before then they were in no state to consent to anything.
Biker Biggles
12-08-08, 07:22 PM
Its a totally separate topic about what constitutes rape and whether the law here is right or wrong.The law is that having sex with someone without their consent is rape.Therefore someone who is incapable of giving consent for whatever reason will be a rape victim if anyone has sex with them.So you cant have sex with drunk,drugged, sleeping or mentally impaired people whatever your intent or whatever they may appear to consent to.
What constitutes "drunk" or "impaired" is abit more tricky,but short of giving them a mental health assessment or a breathaliser Im not sure how you get round that one.
The law of course has no common sense.We have to rely on juries for that.
The law of course has no common sense.We have to rely on juries for that.
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:full of the great british public:rolleyes::rolleyes:
oh here is one to throw in that may be even harder to prove Marital rape?? how can that really be proven?
Many women would probably not report Marital rape as it would be harder to prove hence they would keep it to themselves and more than likely suffer in silence (and get out of the Marriage PDQ if they have any sense)
Biker Biggles
12-08-08, 08:02 PM
Dont you just love the great British public?
Having said that Id rather trust them than a panel of the great and the good or,worse still,a panel of "experts"
gettin2dizzy
12-08-08, 08:05 PM
Anyway..... 9 out of 10 people enjoy gang rape. Fact.
Anyway..... 9 out of 10 people enjoy gang rape. Fact.
what the 9 partaking?? anyhow as i said before its not rape if you shout surprise!!
gettin2dizzy
12-08-08, 08:10 PM
Well I'm sorry your experiances to date have led you to this conclusion but, it is a generalisation and not something that in all seriousness you can make a blanket statement on!.
Most definitely a sweeping conclusion I know. But it's right most of the time :rolleyes:
Wayluya
12-08-08, 08:20 PM
The law is that having sex with someone without their consent is rape.Therefore someone who is incapable of giving consent for whatever reason will be a rape victim if anyone has sex with them.So you cant have sex with drunk,drugged, sleeping or mentally impaired people whatever your intent or whatever they may appear to consent to.
I won't disagree with you that this is the law (I have no idea), but if so it means me and the late Missus will be due a bucket load of Compo :cool:........from raping the other. whilst being raped by the other.
Being off ones head might not have resulted in the best sex we ever had - but can't say it was unpleasant. So not only does the law say I have been raped, but I evidently enjoyed the experiance - cos' we repeated it enough times......."back in the day" :rolleyes:
Learn something new every day........
So how do I claim my Compo?
Biker Biggles
12-08-08, 08:22 PM
Get onto CICA.
We could all on a winner here.
I feel most folks have severely missed the point.
The compensation wasn't awarded as a direct result of getting raped. That happened, unfortunately, but the woman did the right thing in reporting it.
For whatever reason, she then complained that the Police weren't handling the issue correctly. To which, the Police replied basically with "OK, we get your point, but if you hadn't of been drunk, you probably wouldn't of been raped, and we wouldn't have to deal with the case. As we see it, you contributed to your own rape by being drunk. We will award compensation, but since you contributed to the whole event, we'll knock of 25%."
I'm sorry. What? Since when were the Police allowed to do that? Regardless of what caused the crime, surely the Police have a duty to investigate all cases in the same manner. Failure to do so should result in severe penalties for the cops. End of.
That's akin to me buying something on ebay, and the seller mis-represents the item (for example, gets a digit wrong in the model number). I receive it, it doesn't work as expected so complain. The seller then turns around & says "OK, but as you didn't spot my mistake, I'll give you a refund, minus 25% ;)" I'm sorry, but that's simply not good enough.
Flamin_Squirrel
12-08-08, 09:50 PM
Baph.. top post
Can't help but notice you've not responded to Wayluya's post...
Can't help but notice you've not responded to Wayluya's post...
Perhaps I didnt really see any point in responding to his post considering that it didnt really have any bearing on the topic in discussion?!:rolleyes:
Flamin_Squirrel
12-08-08, 10:04 PM
Perhaps I didnt really see any point in responding to his post considering that it didnt really have any bearing on the topic in discussion?!:rolleyes:
You mean the topic you were discussing on previous pages?
You mean the topic you were discussing on previous pages?
I believe that it takes more then one person for a discussion.. are you here to just be annoying or contribute anything of relevance to this?
Flamin_Squirrel
13-08-08, 06:42 AM
I believe that it takes more then one person for a discussion.. are you here to just be annoying or contribute anything of relevance to this?
Whatever.
You don't seem to be able to justify your position that, for some reason, being drunk makes a woman a vulnerable innocent, but makes men dangerous sexual predators fully aware of their actions however inebriated they are.
Thankfully juries tend not agree with you though, which is why there are so many acquittals.
Get onto CICA.
We could all on a winner here.
Here's a link. (https://www.cica.gov.uk/portal/page?_pageid=33,278194&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL)
gettin2dizzy
13-08-08, 06:59 AM
Here's a link. (https://www.cica.gov.uk/portal/page?_pageid=33,278194&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL)
Yet you pay for the privilege of having your car stolen. Reminds me of the film 'Chopper' & the 'victims of crime' payments.
Yet you pay for the privilege of having your car stolen. Reminds me of the film 'Chopper' & the 'victims of crime' payments.
Yup, it only covers criminal injuries.
Whatever.
You don't seem to be able to justify your position that, for some reason, being drunk makes a woman a vulnerable innocent, but makes men dangerous sexual predators fully aware of their actions however inebriated they are.
Thankfully juries tend not agree with you though, which is why there are so many acquittals.
no I see that you've managed to quite deliberately miss the point of the whole thread but never mind.. and I'm not sure that is the sole reason for acquittals but I digress.:rolleyes:
Flamin_Squirrel
13-08-08, 09:27 AM
no I see that you've managed to quite deliberately miss the point of the whole thread but never mind.. and I'm not sure that is the sole reason for acquittals but I digress.:rolleyes:
I'm not missing the point at all, im bringing up points that you youself were dicussing earlier in the thread. I challenge your pov and suddenly I'm changing the subject :rolleyes:
gettin2dizzy
13-08-08, 09:32 AM
I'm not missing the point at all, im bringing up points that you youself were dicussing earlier in the thread. I challenge your pov and suddenly I'm changing the subject :rolleyes:
It's always the mans fault you see. He's guilty before he's even laid his eyes on a woman. Duh!
FS that wasnt what I was saying at all.. my main argument was that argument was that alcohol consumption should not be taken as a sign that a person has attributed to their rape... male or female!
It's always the mans fault you see. He's guilty before he's even laid his eyes on a woman. Duh!
:why:
whats needed is a justice system that works and not send the rapist to prison for 5 years for him to be let out in 2.5
as for G2Dzzy - i hope you are never in that situation - i've been invoved both sides and it devastating when you have deal with blinkered views like that.
compensation - least she got it - my mat got offered counselling at that was it!
But i can see both sides it shouldn't be taken in account for compensation for anyone who's classed as a victim and it shouldn't be automatically assumed that they were an easy target. to throw a different scenario into the pot - which has happened
you get caught in a catholic town wearing a blue non football top and you get beaten up - wd you cut compensation because they sd have known not to wear a blue top.
This debate will rage on and on till society changes and the attitude to alcohol change. While its still acceptable to binge drink it will also be used by both sides in any crime to shift blame. as for rape - it will create barriers on both sexes and I would love to see the women who cry rape when it wasn't prosecuted (strange froma women i know) it will add credability to those who have suffered and take the step to report.
jimmy__riddle
13-08-08, 10:21 AM
compensation - least she got it - my mat got offered counselling at that was it!
Counselling is what they should get, as that is what helps people recover. Money is not a band aid, it just encourages people to abuse the system.
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