Say One Thing, Do Another

[gettin2dizzy]

Little sh*ts. I thought the road-pricing scheme was put to bed. Why this government is so intent on setting up more expensive bureaucracy that achieves nothing, I'll never know.


The Telegraph can disclose that the Government is pushing ahead with plans for a national road-pricing scheme, including testing "spy in the sky" technology.

Eight areas of the country have been selected by ministers for secret pay-per-mile trials which will begin in 2010 and are expected to pave the way for tolls on motorways.
Motorists face paying up to £1.30 a mile during peak periods on the busiest roads.

The Daily Telegraph has learnt that eight areas - Leeds, North Yorkshire, Milton Keynes and Buckinghamshire, south west London, Suffolk and Essex – have been selected for the trials.

Initially, in January 2010, one hundred cars in each area will trial the new technology – in many cases entailing placing black boxes to allow their movements to be tracked - but members of the public will be invited to join the pilots in June 2010.

The Government is close to signing contracts with four companies who will run the national trials, testing not only the technology which will be fitted to the cars, but also the bureaucracy needed to run a system including sending out bills.

In most cases, the trials will involve a satellite tracking a vehicle's movements. Motorists will then receive a monthly or weekly bill which will vary depending on when and where they drove.

Theresa Villiers, the shadow Transport Secretary, said: "It seems that Labour's unpopular plans for a national road pricing scheme are alive and well.
"They are determined to press ahead with their untried and untested spy-in-the-sky national project even though it looks like an IT disaster waiting to happen. Ruth Kelly should start listening to drivers and scrap these pilots for a national road pricing scheme that is unnecessary and unwanted."

The Treasury earmarked millions of pounds for the pilots in the budget and Chancellor Alistair Darling believes the scheme could be crucial in cutting congestion in the long-term.

British motorists already pay some of the highest taxes in the world and with Government finances under severe pressure the pay-as-you-drive scheme could prove a valuable source of extra revenue for the Treasury.

It is understood that there is greater enthusiasm in the Treasury than the Department for Transport for road pricing.
However it is not known if the scheme would entirely replace existing motoring taxes or be introduced on top of them. Ministers have previously pledged cuts in other duties if the scheme is introduced.

The Department for Transport insists that the pilots are designed "to inform thinking about motorway capacity".
When the scheme was first floated by the Blair administration 1.8 million people signed a petition on the Downing Street website calling on the Government to abandon the scheme.

Last night, Peter Roberts, who led the initial protests, said: "If the Government was true to its word and was kicking road pricing into the long grass, why is it running trials?
"Ministers have said that national road pricing is no longer on the agenda. So either they are wasting millions of pounds of taxpayers' money or they are not being honest with voters."
The effectiveness of the charging schemes in cutting congestion has been undermined by the London congestion charge. The £8 a day charge has done little to cut congestion in the capital and other cities are now more sceptical about following London's scheme.

Greater Manchester's congestion scheme will shortly be put to a referendum of voters in the 10 participating council areas. Unless it is backed by a majority of those polled in at least seven local authorities, the scheme will be dropped.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/fairdealfordrivers/2573876/Spy-in-the-sky-paves-way-for-road-pricing.html

[SoulKiss]

Saw this on the news.

Surely this infringes on our Human Rights with regards to Free Movement?

Also, althought it hasn't stopped them with Duty and VAT on Fuel, surely this is yet another double-tax scam, which surely is also the case with parking charges on public roads?

[the_lone_wolf]

there'll be such a backlash, same as the 10p tax band fiasco, that they'll never implement it

unless of course they're going to be scrapping VED?:rolleyes:

[the_lone_wolf]

oh, and protip:

put foil over the black box for free travel:rolleyes:

[gettin2dizzy]

oh, and protip:

put foil over the black box for free travel:rolleyes:
Which everyone will do....so then there'll be a crime of being out without ID. You'll be questioned for every journey you make.

This isn't a good state of affairs :(

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Well, if Labour carry on deliberately reinforcing their reputation as being overbearing and economic incompetant, they'll hopefully be booted out before they're able to impliment this outrageous scheme.

It anoys me that these idiots seem to think that millions of people join in a gigantic national traffic jam twice daily for a laugh. They themselves can use the roads as much as they like of course, because we pay for their travel. Perhaps that's the governments ultimate goal - price EVERYONE off the roads, then they'll be the only ones who can afford to use them (because they won't be paying).

[gettin2dizzy]

And the way that this will only tax the people who need to go to work!

The British Government built all of the suburban sprawls; they shouldn't now punish people for having to travel to work from them.

It's all beyond a joke now. Anyone tempted to 'disappear' before we're all in their system? ;)

[Baph]

Saw this on the news.

Surely this infringes on our Human Rights with regards to Free Movement?

Not really, as you're still free to walk/catch a bus etc. It's only the method of movement that's restricted, and then only by the size of your wallet.

oh, and protip:

put foil over the black box for free travel:rolleyes:
Good plan, but if they use even half decent GPS gear, that won't work. Now, don't tell anyone to open the box & put tin foil over the back of the PCB... I'll earn a mint doing that (before it's a legal requirement to have the black box officer!!).

If it's going to work, it'll have to be along the lines of the already existing Tracker (used for tracking stolen vehicles). But as evidenced on the .org before, even those can be beaten.

EDIT: Double-taxation? I'd say it's tripple. Fuel tax depending on how much of it you burn, road tax depending on how quickly you burn fuel, and "pay as you drive" for how much of the road you drive on, and at what time.

[gettin2dizzy]

EDIT: Double-taxation? I'd say it's tripple. Fuel tax depending on how much of it you burn, road tax depending on how quickly you burn fuel, and "pay as you drive" for how much of the road you drive on, and at what time.
Add in the income tax paid on your wage, and the tax your employer pays to earn your wage... ;)

[Stu]

with Government finances under severe pressure the pay-as-you-drive scheme could prove a valuable source of extra revenue for the Treasury
It really is amazing if the govt think this is some miracle source of extra revenue :roll: It can only come from the general public, why not just be open about it, put up income tax and then everyone can see how sh*te the govt must be at running the public finances.

[ArtyLady]

Not really, as you're still free to walk/catch a bus etc. It's only the method of movement that's restricted, and then only by the size of your wallet.




Not everyone can use public transport due to disability, and I dont just mean physical disability :(

If this goes ahead then I for one will not be able to afford to visit my daughter/parents/family who all live fair distances away from me :(

[Baph]

Not everyone can use public transport due to disability, and I dont just mean physical disability :(


But that doesn't mean that the scheme can't have a discount for those that have a genuine reason for not using public transport (including lack of availability and disability of users).


If this goes ahead then I for one will not be able to afford to visit my daughter/parents/family who all live fair distances away from me :(

I'll do you a .Org discount on giving the box a "disability", £20. Though come MOT time, I accept no liability for your mileage being vastly over the expected value. :lol:

[Grinch]

Get them fitted, then all of us drive to the seaside and throw them in the ocean.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

But that doesn't mean that the scheme can't have a discount for those that have a genuine reason for not using public transport (including lack of availability and disability of users).

And who decides who gets that? Another ****wit minister who despite 10 years of failed attempts to socially engineer the UK still thinks that punishing people for going to work is a good idea.

The roads are crowded, the trains are crowded. This is a serious problem that needs addressing. Trying to squeeze the last remaining spare pennies out of people does nothing to solve the problem.

[Grinch]

We need more bendy buses... twits.

[DanAbnormal]

Ha, this is laughable. It'll never happen as, simply put, 80% (random made up figure btw) of people will not be able to afford to travel to their jobs. I did the sums last time and it would cost me £35 per day to get to work. But if it does happen companies will be forced to let their employees work from home, meaning less people on the road meaning the government will not generate much from this dumb scam, er, scheme. So then what, tax us for how much time we spend in our homes? If they really want to alienate the population and have huge citywide riots on their hands they are going the right way about it.

[custard]

not infringement of rights as they are not directly stopping you from doing something.
think it is utterly a step too far though. it will probably work out more expensive than current vehicle excise and no doubt you will get sweet FA for it.

also, knowing how well the public sector works, and how much notice they pay to surveys i can see this going through regardless.



if congestion is such a problem why not encourage the use of jam busting modes of transport. there one on the tip of my tongue but just cant remember what it is..:)

[ogden]

Add in the income tax paid on your wage, and the tax your employer pays to earn your wage... ;)

And the VAT on the fuel duty.

How does one spell "windfall", anyway?

[DanAbnormal]

I have a solution to this.

1. Get fired from job.
2. Sit on my **** at home and eat Doritos.
3. Claim 'job seekers' allowance.

There, sorted. This is what people may have to resort to. So, in order to make a few bucks the government will have record unemployment figures a crumbling economy due to no workforce........ooh the future's bright!

:rolleyes:

[Grinch]

Sit on my **** at home and eat Doritos.


Whats different now?

[DanAbnormal]

Whats different now?

I sit on my **** and eat muffins. :p

[Baph]

And who decides who gets that? Another ****wit minister who despite 10 years of failed attempts to socially engineer the UK still thinks that punishing people for going to work is a good idea.

The roads are crowded, the trains are crowded. This is a serious problem that needs addressing. Trying to squeeze the last remaining spare pennies out of people does nothing to solve the problem.
Who said the solution was a good one?

I made a fair amount of money from the "Y2K" thing. I see no reason not to earn money on this "pay as you drive" scheme.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Who said the solution was a good one?

I made a fair amount of money from the "Y2K" thing. I see no reason not to earn money on this "pay as you drive" scheme.

Erm, I don't follow. Who earns anything from this? If you're referring to the company that administers it, bollox.

The economy isn't in the best shape at the moment - strangling the countries productivity further still just to keep the governments unemployment figures down is an insane idea.

[ogden]

Ha, this is laughable. It'll never happen as, simply put, 80% (random made up figure btw) of people will not be able to afford to travel to their jobs. I did the sums last time and it would cost me £35 per day to get to work. But if it does happen companies will be forced to let their employees work from home, meaning less people on the road meaning the government will not generate much from this dumb scam, er, scheme. So then what, tax us for how much time we spend in our homes? If they really want to alienate the population and have huge citywide riots on their hands they are going the right way about it.

Hear hear! And while we're at it, bring back hanging!

[ArtyLady]

...



I'll do you a .Org discount on giving the box a "disability", £20. Though come MOT time, I accept no liability for your mileage being vastly over the expected value. :lol:

:confused: I dont get the first bit at all?

I dont go vast distances on my bike due to a) my health and b)the cost of petrol - I quite often combine rides with visiting friends and rellies.

[Tris]

I can't get too excited about paying to use the road. Thats just a toll road by another name as they have in many parts of the world.

It's the Big Brother is watching you conseques that I object to.

Why should anyone other than those who are near and dear to me know what/where I have been. :smt071:smt071

Secondly, I've no doubt that the tin foil avoidance technique or something else would be adoped to avoid paying as was suggested. Its very difficult to avoid paying when you come across a so££$ng great concrete structure the complete width of the road with lights and barriers in it.

At the very least it would cause to get of the conjested road and on to aleass conjested on WHICH WAS TO OBJECTIVE IN THE FIRST PLACE

[Baph]

Erm, I don't follow. Who earns anything from this?

Me, by charging to disable the system (before it's legally enforced anyhow...just for any officers reading this). It's pretty easy when you know how, and with the suggested costs so far, it'll cost less for me to disable the system than it would to drive 1mile on the M1 at rush-hour. :)

ArtyLady, the first bit of my post - the bit you mis-understood, was me suggesting that for those with a decent reason why they cannot use public transport (disability or lack of availability of public transport etc), then there could be a discount on the "pay-per-drive" scheme/scam.

[ArtyLady]

Me, by charging to disable the system (before it's legally enforced anyhow...just for any officers reading this). It's pretty easy when you know how, and with the suggested costs so far, it'll cost less for me to disable the system than it would to drive 1mile on the M1 at rush-hour. :)

ArtyLady, the first bit of my post - the bit you mis-understood, was me suggesting that for those with a decent reason why they cannot use public transport (disability or lack of availability of public transport etc), then there could be a discount on the "pay-per-drive" scheme/scam.

No I got that bit it made sense...it was I'll do you a .Org discount on giving the box a "disability", £20. that I didnt understand!

[Baph]

it was I'll do you a .Org discount on giving the box a "disability", £20. that I didnt understand!

Regardless of how the government decide to impliment the schema, they'll require some form of tracking by electrical device - I know how to disable such a device, and have tested my methods on numerous comercially available solutions.

In fact, the last solution I tested was for a manufacturer that only supplies the government. They gave up & asked me where the tracking device was.

[21QUEST]

No I got that bit it made sense...it was I'll do you a .Org discount on giving the box a "disability", £20. that I didnt understand!
Lol.....Baph at it again ;)


Basically, because you are a respected member of the '.org', he will give you a discount on what he would normall chage for giving the box a 'disability' ergo making it ineffective/taking it out of active service/..... ;)



Ben

[SoulKiss]

Lol.....Baph at it again ;)


Basically, because you are a respected member of the '.org', he will give you a discount on what he would normall chage for giving the box a 'disability' ergo making it ineffective/taking it out of active service/..... ;)



Ben

Its not disables, its satelite challenged

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Me, by charging to disable the system (before it's legally enforced anyhow...just for any officers reading this).

Ah excellent. Money for disabling the tools of government oppresion is money well earnt. I salute your future efforts :salut:

[21QUEST]

Its not disables, its satelite challenged
Don't you be getting 'technical' on me mister :p ;)



Ben

[Ed]

This lot will be voted out at the next election, and it'll never happen:D

[gettin2dizzy]

This lot will be voted out at the next election, and it'll never happen:D
A bit like the EU referendum? ;)

It's an apalling state of affairs when the governement thinks it's worth spending so much money on the infastructure and policing of such systems as an alternative to providing a decent solution. If this money was spent on the current transport system; both road & rail, then we would all be better off physically on the road, and in the pocket.


All this does is create more 'top level' jobs for ministers and government workers to stroll in to, on large salaries, failing miserably and then finding the next job. It's a two-tier society of Government officials, and the rest of us. I often wonder whether they're pi$$ing themselves with laughter behind our backs.

[ArtyLady]

[...]I know how to disable such a device, and have tested my methods on numerous comercially available solutions. [...]



Ah...I get you now!

Im far too naive! :rolleyes: :lol:

[Flamin_Squirrel]

I often wonder whether they're pi$$ing themselves with laughter behind our backs.

I used to think so, certainly some are. But actually, I think most politicians genuinely want to make things better. Problem is, most have very little social skills. They probably had no friends at school, lunch money routinely stolen and so on.

Ultimately they have no managerial ability, all they have to offer are good intentions. And we all know where that road leads.