front brakes

[fast-lad]

hi all,

i have a k5 650 pointy, the problem i find with itis that the front brakes are proper ****e.

i have put braided lines on along with double hh pads. i have also renewed the fluid using 5.1 brake fluid.
is it me or do you find the brakes poor?
what i mean by poor is that there is very little feel at the lever.
the lever also travels a fair way towards the bar and feels spongy, i
have bled the brakes thoroughly but they still feel the same.

are ther any upgrades i could add ie; master cylinder from a gixer etc etc, if so anyone recommend anything?

cheers steve

[TheShadow]

I changed the calipers on my 2000 curvy helped masivly

[fizzwheel]

Sounds like you have air in the system and you need to bleed your brakes to get the air out. Have a search plenty of threads on the topic, It can be a bit time consuming but its worth taking some time over it, if you haven tried it already that is.

[fast-lad]

can't be any air in system as they have had nearly 1 litre of fluid bled through?

cheers steve

[fizzwheel]

It definately sounds like air, spongey lever that goes back to the bar, no feel at the lever...

What you could try doing is to zip tie the brake lever to the bar and then leave it like that overnight, it might dislodge any air in there.

[yorkie_chris]

Strip and rubber grease seals, all slides and rubbers. Bled out system from all banjos and joints?

[jambo]

If you bleed a system properly, you can do the whole lot with a 250ml bottle, if you're missing a trick, you can put a litre through it and still have a tiny bit of air in the system. You may note that the master cylinder banjo bolt is often the highest point in the system (excluding the reservoir). This means a small air bubble often gets trapped there. Use a spanner, some rag and some patience and you can use the banjo bolt as a bleed nipple:

Compress brake lever
loosen banjo bolt off a little with spanner until fluid starts escaping with bubbles
Tighten bolt
Release lever.

Repeat a few times, may well help. Also take the time out to see how the lever itself feels, if the action doesn't feel smooth, remove lever, clean up the pivot , lever, and master cylinder mount with an oily rag and then re-fit, adding some oil. It's amazing how much difference this can make if the levers sticking on dirt.

HTH

Jambo

[flymo]

Where abouts 'up North' are you?

[Airwolf]

jambo and fizzwheel are right.
just fitted braided lines on my sv. at first felt cxxx (sorry eu keyboard)
tieded brake overnight to bleed ,,
world of differeance

worth the time:cool::cool:

[fast-lad]

thanks for the input but i do know how to bleed the system.
i have tried the bungy around the lever.
the lever is brand new and lubed.

can anyone get a solid feel at the lever ?

flymo (next to the angel)

thanks again

[yorkie_chris]

See above. Are the calipers healthy?

[svdemon]

Get some GSXR calipers on it!

[flymo]

No reason why these brakes shouldnt work just fine, there must be something wrong with them or air in the system. The stock calipers are perfectly good enough when setup properly.

If the lever still feels spongy and moves excessively, and you have no obvious leeks then you must still have air in there.

[svdemon]

GSXR brake are better though!

[carsounds_dan]

or my calipers with braided lines in the forsale section

[Dangerous Dave]

You must have air in the system, the SV has good brakes and the people that start to moan about them tend to need the brake system serviced.

Take the time to bleed the system correctly, this involves bleeding from the banjo bolts too. Have a good look at the calipers also, it isn't all about lines and pads.

[YZEtc]

Of course, all of the basic requirements of caliper cleanliness, lubrication, and brake pad health must be met, and it sounds like you know that they are.

If you're ready to pull your hair out over this, I'd take some time to confirm there's no abnormality like a slightly warped rotor or bent caliper mounting bracket or anything else that would result in a less-than-perfect alignment of rotor and caliper.
If something's preventing proper orientation or caliper and rotor, a caliper piston or two may be pushed back ever so slightly into the caliper body when you let off the brake lever, giving you this annoying lever travel and less-than-solid feel.
When things are aligned properly and solid, it's the mere flexure of the caliper piston seals pulling the pistons back a few thousandths of an inch when you let go of the lever.

Also, I'd scrutinize the lowly master cylinder, too, and make sure the correct brake lever is mounted (not a pattern lever that's actually made for another model motorcycle) along with a squeaky-clean lever pivot that's lubed with a film of grease.

Worth a shot if you insist you've looked at everything else and are ready to hurl the bike off a cliff. :D

SV-650 front brakes are a touchy subject on other message boards - some guys think they're crap, even when new, and some guys think you can go out and take on all comers as they are stock, just as long as you know how to bleed them as well as they, themselves, can. :D

My own opinion of SV-650 front brakes are that they're like the suspension parts that the bike comes with:
Good enough to get out there and ride, but if you've been "spoiled" by the front brakes found on other bikes (more expensive bikes, basically), you'll be wanting a lot more, even when the brake system is brandy new and functioning 100%.

When my SV-650K7 was brand-new last October, the lever felt solid, but actual brake power was sorely lacking compared to what I had become used to.
I wanted a lot more.
I've done the GSX-R caliper swap (along with a modern master cylinder from a GSX-R) and the front brakes now work like a bike from the 21st century vs. a bike from 1907. :D

[fizzwheel]

My own opinion of SV-650 front brakes are that they're like the suspension parts that the bike comes with:

Good enough to get out there and ride, but if you've been "spoiled" by the front brakes found on other bikes (more expensive bikes, basically), you'll be wanting a lot more, even when the brake system is brandy new and functioning 100%.

Agreed

[fast-lad]

thanks for all the responces.

as yzetc says i have possibly been spoilt as i have been riding my ducati and also my r6r track bike.
i intend to race the sv thats why i want the brakes to be spoy on.

could anyone tell me what callipers / master cylinder fit and work best from the gixxer range?

thanks to all again ......................steve

[flymo]

are you planning on racing it in a mini-twins regulated class? If so you have no choice but to use the stock calipers and master cylinder etc.

[Grinch]

I have in the past done all the work and the problem was the master cylinder, so you might need to get a servicing kit for it and replace the seals. After which the brakes where back to there 2 fingered greatness.

[Viney]

can't be any air in system as they have had nearly 1 litre of fluid bled through?

cheers steveThat means nothing. In the old days i used over 2 litres of fluid and still had air in the system. Its the method used to beleed brakes, not the ammount of fluid.

Many poeple say that the brakes are rubbish on the SV. Agreed they are not Gixxer standard, but they are more than up to the job when in full working order.

[Viney]

Gixxer claipers fit but need adapter plates.

[yorkie_chris]

Nowt wrong with SV brakes, just you need to be a little firmer with them. The problem is they totally overwhelme standard front end.

[toonyank]

I agree with most that say there must be air in the system somewhere because oil or any liquid won't compress nomatter how hard you try.

One thing to remember is there are areas where air can be trapped as others have mentioned.

Yes in principal bleeding brakes is quite simple.... easy is another thing because air always wants to go up and you're trying to push it down so speed is quite useful. If the calipers are in good order then air really is the only other culprit.

[Dangerous Dave]

The problem is they totally overwhelme standard front end.
Yeap, fit some progressive springs and oil to suit your weight and the brakes will be transformed also.

[dizzyblonde]

How do you know when the rubber hoses are past their sell by date? The brakes on my black SV were serviced by myself and YC a couple of months back but still seem poor. Thats compared to the yellow one with 8 year old braided hoses, newly serviced and a front end with prog springs and 15w oil...they stop on a pin with one finger!

[toonyank]

How do you know when the rubber hoses are past their sell by date?

I think the service schedule on the standard hoses says replace after 4 years. Now IMHO this is a guideline and I know mine are the originals and it's an 02 with 30K and they look fine no cracks still it's always safer to follow the schedule.

As far as the steel braided ones they'll last as long as the bike and don't expand giving that mushy feeling the stock ones give that's what makes them perform better.

[rowdy]

Cheers fastlad, mentioned in another thread that I didn't like the front brakes and got endless posts saying there is nothing wrong with them, there is , they are cheap so never going to be brilliant (owned the bike from brand new ,tried different pads so the "brakes need servicing" doesn't apply). I too think that they lack feel, best thing to do is change forks and brakes for GSXR fare imo.

[Dangerous Dave]

got endless posts saying there is nothing wrong with them
Doesn't that prove that the majority of SV riders say there is nothing wrong with the brakes then???

If you are going to post a thread and then ignore all the sensible advice given by peolpe who have owned and worked on SV's for many years then what was the point of the thread???

The SV's are raced, Minitwins, and the brakes have proven to be more than up to the job on the track and on the road. The SV is a budget bike, it had budget brakes, but again they are more than up to the job of stopping and controlling an SV.

Service the damn things properly and you will see a huge difference....

If you are used to bikes with non-budget brakes then yes you are going to say they aren't as good, but the fact is they are more than enough for the SV650!!!

It is also about they way you use them also...

:smt076

[Viney]

How do you know when the rubber hoses are past their sell by date? The brakes on my black SV were serviced by myself and YC a couple of months back but still seem poor. Thats compared to the yellow one with 8 year old braided hoses, newly serviced and a front end with prog springs and 15w oil...they stop on a pin with one finger!
Suzuki recommend changing them every 5 years!

[yorkie_chris]

Never mind whinging, have you actually been inside the calipers and made sure the seals are in good nick? New pads doesn't constitute a full service of the calipers.

[dizzyblonde]

errr we did a full service...remember i sat in my kitchen one night and did the seals, pistons and did the red rubber grease job??....didn't chnge the pads...didn't need em....grumpy pants!

[yorkie_chris]

You're not the one whinging dizzy bugger :-P

[flymo]

I've run a few types of race bikes, currently the SV with stock brakes in A1 condition and previously I've used R1 brakes on a 400.

To be honest there isnt a lot in it and thats under extremely hard braking on the track.

For racing the best brake mod I've used is to replace discs and pads with EBC race items but by far the biggest benefit I've gained overall is by sorting out the front suspension.

There is absolutely nothing lacking at all. I could not brake any harder than I do now.

[dizzyblonde]

You're not the one whinging dizzy bugger :-P

oh right..lol....;)

[rowdy]

Doesn't that prove that the majority of SV riders say there is nothing wrong with the brakes then???

If you are going to post a thread and then ignore all the sensible advice given by peolpe who have owned and worked on SV's for many years then what was the point of the thread???

The SV's are raced, Minitwins, and the brakes have proven to be more than up to the job on the track and on the road. The SV is a budget bike, it had budget brakes, but again they are more than up to the job of stopping and controlling an SV.

Service the damn things properly and you will see a huge difference....

If you are used to bikes with non-budget brakes then yes you are going to say they aren't as good, but the fact is they are more than enough for the SV650!!!

It is also about they way you use them also...

:smt076
Dave you sound like a man that knows what he is doing, and I respect what you have to say on most subjects, I haven't ignored peoples advice as I was only replying to a thread someone else put up, but bikes appeal to people for different reasons and to say that the brakes are good enough for one person doesn't mean to say they feel right for another person. The bike was bought brand new and serviced by suzuki and also other bike mechanics and myself, so I don't think there is an issue with them, I have never liked them since the bike was new and yes I have been used to better equipment, but at the end of the day I'm just agreeing with the person that started the thread. BTW looking at your signiture are your brakes as they were when they left the factory, if not why not and were they uprated before you uprated your engine?

[yorkie_chris]

Dave has SRAD front end

[fast-lad]

woooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
calm down fellas?

i only asked about the brakes because personaly i think mine are crap.
thanks for the advise about air in the system and sevicing them, surely on an 05 bike with 6k they do not need seviced.

i will have another go at bleeding them (prob pressure bleed this time)
as the lever does not feel hard if you know what i mean.
should the lever feel hard on an sv?

ilike i said earlier i have been riding my ducati / yamaha and honda's this is my first suzuki so not sure what to expect from the brakes?
btw i have had the forks reworked ie springs and heavier oil.

thanks again for all the input ..............steve

ps; stop bitching you tarts

[fizzwheel]

It should feel hard, mine did eventually, but it took a full brake service with new seals, fresh fluid and a damn good bleeding before it did. But compared to my GSXR it never felt that hard.

I personally think you found what I found when I rode my SV after my GSXR that once you've been spoiled by better brakes on more expensive bikes you notice things like this a lot more.

[rowdy]

woooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
calm down fellas?

i only asked about the brakes because personaly i think mine are crap.
thanks for the advise about air in the system and sevicing them, surely on an 05 bike with 6k they do not need seviced.

i will have another go at bleeding them (prob pressure bleed this time)
as the lever does not feel hard if you know what i mean.
should the lever feel hard on an sv?

ilike i said earlier i have been riding my ducati / yamaha and honda's this is my first suzuki so not sure what to expect from the brakes?
btw i have had the forks reworked ie springs and heavier oil.

thanks again for all the input ..............steve

ps; stop bitching you tarts
Sorry didn't mean to come across as narky or whingey and understand where dave is coming from as I don't think they're not up to the job or I don't lack confidence with them just don't like em that much

[Dangerous Dave]

surely on an 05 bike with 6k they do not need seviced.
It is a major component, they need servicing often to remain in there best condition. You will know when they have been serviced during a service at a dealers, they will feel ten times better than before it went in.

BTW looking at your signiture are your brakes as they were when they left the factory, if not why not and were they uprated before you uprated your engine?
On the SV800S the brakes sre off of a SRAD, thats not to say that the SV brakes couldn't stop this thing! I upgrade for the suspension, not the brakes.

The SV650S has 82bhp, this has a standard front end fitted along with the standard calipers and discs. Only the pads, lines and fluid have been changed.