Massacre post mortem

[northwind]

This thread's designed to basically pick over this year's Massacre rideouts, see what we think went well and what we think didn't, and look at ways to improve things for next time. Negativity is ENTIRELY encouraged here :cool: There are plenty of things that I would like to tweak, and also things I'd like to improve on, but also there are a lot of things I want to keep and build on. Naturally this thread will end up having some suggestions for next year but please keep them relevant, ie, don't just say "I think we should do this", there's plenty of time for that- but if you think "This didn't work, maybe we should try that" then that's very useful.

I might be quite aggressive in the editing on this thread, don't take offence if your masterpiece gets snipped :) Big threads are a nightmare to read.

[northwind]

For me, there were 5 obvious issues

1) It being too much my show- that was for good reasons but I didn't start getting other people in to help til the last minute, and that was obviously a mistake. Even on the day I tried to keep it too much in my grasp, not clever.

2) The campsite. Yes, they were well located and welcoming but the bugs were a nightmare and the restrictions on late night mucking about were very annoying. Also, only fairly limited local accomodation options, though it was good and varied

3) The route- we had to drop off a section and an optional ride, and with hindsight the route was just a wee bit too big. This ties into...

4) Timekeeping. My bad here, I underestimated the time it'd take to get everyone on the road, and I don't think there was adequate provision for incidents- we were about an hour behind schedule 30 minutes into the run :). I rashly thought people would pay attention when I said GET FUEL BEFOREHAND and GET FUEL NOW :)

5) Communication. I decided at the last minute that though we didn't need markers, having a few trail bosses just to communicate and generally herd cats would be good, but it was too late. This naturally happens anyway, people with a good brain and group experience will always take over, but it should have been formalised. These would NOT have been markers, though they could mark if they wanted, but more delegates, people who know how the ride works and can help communicate but who can also step in with problems. Basically, just some wildcards who can operate a wee bit outside the rideout, if you like.

But the strengths were very strong:

1) Location was basically very good, not too far north and well located for good roads.

2) The optional loops. Yes, they were a complete logistical bas***d but they worked very well I think. The overall route was pretty damn good in fact, very hard to top.

3) Lunch. Thanks to KG, this worked very well. It's quite awkward timing wise as if the rideout time slips, we could be in trouble- but the sit-down lunch was very, very good I thought.

4) and breakfast. This was just awesome, I love you guys, you give me sausages and coffee.

5) This is the big one... The whole thing was very flexible and adaptable. It could go as big as it had to but would have worked with 10 people, and there was no need to book in advance. When we over-ran, we could change the route on the fly. I think this is definately the way to go, the temptation to overplan is always strong but a simple plan is a durable plan. This is one place where having a dictator helps :)

So what I would like for next year...

A fairly informal organisational team, with probably somewhere around 6 core people but open to input from everyone.

Identified trail bosses on the road- NOT named markers, but people visibly marked who can basically take charge and make independant decisions with confidence. You know who you are.

Keep the optional loops if we can- that's a nice signature touch and means we're not having to miss out roads because some people might not be up for them

Keep the general level of roads high- we want to be accessible to everyone but at the same time, nobody wants to ride 1200 miles in a weekend in order to ride boring roads

Sit-down lunch OR lunch in a real tourist hub that can deal with serious numbers

Site-wise, I want a mix of accomodation to cover budgets and preferences, and somewhere we don't need to worry about waking up babies if we want to talk bo***cks all night and neck whisky. There's lots of ways to do this. Better foul weather facilities.

NOT TOO FAR NORTH! If people can't hit us in one day from most of the country, that's a mistake I feel.

Not overplanned- we need a plan that can survive mishaps and last minute alterations, and expand and contract at will.

Better photos- obviously a lot of this just fell apart on the day but we never did a proper group photo (sad face) and I wanted more stuff from the roads. We had an epidemic of video kit fails...

That's all that comes to mind just now, but I'm sure more will come along.

[-Ralph-]

For me, there were 5 obvious issues

1) It being too much my show- that was for good reasons but I didn't start getting other people in to help til the last minute, and that was obviously a mistake. Even on the day I tried to keep it too much in my grasp, not clever.

A lot of this was borne out of different expectations at the beginning of the planning.

I made the same mistake with the breakfast. When I planned to do breakfast I planned roll, sausage and coffee for 20 people and I was just going to treat you all instead of charging 2 quid for it. Then Tiger made a comment about "how do I want paid for the breakfast?" Only then it dawned on me (as it had obviously dawned on him) that we had to feed 55 people two mornings in a row. We were going to need a lot of meat, bread, litres of boiling water and lots of charcoal.

It was KG that realised that this had got bigger than our planning allowed for and jumped in at the last minute to fill the gaps - namely lunch and taking workload off me with the breakfast.

KG did 75 quids worth of shopping for the breakfast stuff in advance to save me midnight trips to Tesco's, had it all frozen and packed in cool boxes. He saved me a lot of work 'cos he knew he had the time during the day to do it. OYB was a god send in doing the clearing up as well, or KG and I wouldn't have caught the rest of you until lunch, we hadn't really thought about that either (I still haven't cleaned the BBQ, it looks like it cooked a very fatty pig!)

We just didn't realise how big the event would become. We treated it the same as organising any other big Ecosse rideout.

Hindsight is golden. Next time we know to delegate individual tasks to a team of people. I still think you need one man who has overall control though and knows whats going on with each task. You can't expect a team to function without a leader, otherwise you'll end up with 6 organisers and 6 different weekends all going in different directions, so a certain amout of dictatorship is good.

Though it being your show made your life difficult, I really didn't notice any detrimental effect to our guests.

Communication. I decided at the last minute that though we didn't need markers, having 5 or 5 trail bosses just to communicate and generally herd cats would be good, but it was too late. This naturally happens anyway, people with a good brain and group experience will always take over, but it should have been formalised. .

Trail bosses are good, but I don't think we need to formalise it too much, because trail bosses can get have thier plans scuppered too! I left Pete and Lissa marking Dalmally and raced on with the intention of passing the bulk of the group and getting to Connel first to mark that left turn. I got chaperoned by a copper all the way along Loch Awe, so I got to Connel almost last. Luckily KG had it marked and nobody went the wrong way. So even with zero organisation of trail bosses nobody got lost. Just identify those who know the route as trail bosses and let them get on with it.

I think it's a good idea to have trail bosses identifiable though, maybe a different colour Hi-Viz. There were a few times I blasted past people and rode straight to the front of traffic queues, and I'm sure a few folk thought "what is that :toss:'er doing?".

Well I didn't really care what they thought anyway, and they would see me marking at the next junction and realise why I was cracking on, but at the time I just hoped that my ST06 scottish registered bike gave away the fact that I was one of the minority in the group who knew the roads and exactly where we were going and I was making my way towards the front. There were a couple of occassions I couldn't overtake or filter through the group because I knew people weren't expecting it and it wouldn't have been safe, but when people see a hi viz come up behind them, they move over and make room.

Dean was busy doing his job keeping the pace up at the front, sometimes the fastest 5 or 6 riders were way ahead of the main bulk of the group who were travelling at steadier speeds. There were times when the main group lost sight of the front runners and it only took one of those front runners to forget to mark a junction and we'd have a problem, so you need a team that you can trust to make thier way safely to the front of each group to fill that gap. Unless you organise one marker per junction it has to be people with the confidence to overtake, make progress and do that job, otherwise all your trail bosses end up together at the back having marked all the junctions and departed last.

Site-wise, I want a mix of accomodation to cover budgets and preferences

Agreed, we had a few folk who dropped out this year due to cost. There's a lot of fuel and food involved. A tent may not be a lot of peoples preferred option, but it a necessity for some, simply because it's 6 quid a night, so I think we always need to have at least one accomodation option below (say?) 15 quid a night, be it bunkhouse, tent or whatever.

NOT TOO FAR NORTH! If people can't hit us in one day from most of the country, that's a mistake I feel.

Agreed, I didn't go to AR08 because it was too far for me. I know for a fact accomodation requiring a significantly longer ride than we did this year would put people off, because it would put me off. For a lot of folk riding bikes is about finding good roads and enjoying them, not sitting on a motorway for 10 hours. For me bike miles should be quality, not quantity. A week or two week biking holiday is great, but if I had to go south of Birmingham for a biking weekend, it would be in the car with the bike on a trailer! Getting a sore butt and squaring off a set of tyres just isn't my bag!

[northwind]

The main problem with having just one person so much in charge is that if anything had happened to me, chaos :mrgreen: Don't like brittle plans. I always had 40 people in mind, the only bit that I felt was a problem from that point of view was the stops.

I don't really like the designated marker system as used at the AR- main reason being you end up with markers constantly pushing through the pack to get back to the front, which isn't ideal (the red mist descended a fair bit in the last 2 I think, naming no names). It depends on the route though- like this year, there were very few junctions that needed marked at all.

The drop-off system does work as long as no idiots clear off, which isn't that likely really on a ride like this. Personally, i reckon don't mess with it- you don't need group leaders or anything like that, you just need everyone to know how it works.

I think maybe just armbands or something works for the trail bosses (I like that name, i'll stick with it)- enough to make them fairly recognisable but not enough to cause any confusion with the top and tail riders. The job as I see it's really just to jump in if there's any problems more than anything else, I think the place they'd make the most difference is at rest stops, to keep things moving, but also they can take over marking a junction if they want, stuff like that- like I say, it's what some people (you included) do naturally anyway, so it just takes that one step further. They're definately NOT just markers. I think most of the time they'd be better on the road than stopped at a junction really.

[-Ralph-]

you just need everyone to know how it works.

The marker system works well for Ecosse rideouts. But we know the roads and if anyone gets lost they know the way home.

But, as proved by thousands of tourists on the roads of Scotland every year - what worries me on an invitational is that when people come to Scotland they are having such a good ride, looking at spectacular scenery, enjoying the twisty roads, and generally having a ball being a tourist, that they forget they have role to play and that they should be marking junctions.

As we see from the tourists in cars, in some cases common sense goes out of the window altogether! It's not something you can blame anybody for, it just happens that people get caught up in the moment, just as I did at 4 am on Sunday morning :rolleyes:!

I don't think we had anybody like that this year, but it only takes one.

I'll name no names but we had somebody prove to be unreliable in the organisation of the breakfast, but luckily I wasn't relying on thier input. Much to my own dissatifaction I proved unreliable in leading the Sunday rideout and that will NEVER happen again! But the same can happen with marking junctions.

[northwind]

Yeah, but the thing is it doesn't really take any independant thought to mark a junction- the ride leader stops and marks the junction, and the first rider stops where they are.

[Kilted Ginger]

I'll try to keep this short.
Dictatorship good and bad, a little less during organisation and planning mainly to stop it overwhelming one person and a little more on the day to keep things moving along, stops became protracted.
Flexibility is an absolute must both with accomodation and route, booking a location for 20 then expecting it to be able to take 50 or vice verca is difficult, and there's a lot of things that can affect the ride on the day; offs, police, weather.
trail bosses, I think we lucked out here on the day, a few of us slipped into zipping through the field, marking junctions and marshalling people out of stops etc. For me this needs formalized espcially of we have similar numbers next year. Perhaps 5 or 6 with yellow hiviz on with lead and tec orange as this year. One marking every corner even if 2nd runner is not a tb then they mark until tb arrives. The slow start could have been avoided if a tb had stopped and tec kept moving. Might have meant couple of tbs dropping off the back but they would have caught up. even at oysters if tec had arrived and said tb1 has stopped for an off, called him for update or, tb2 wait here on him ( so no one left completely solo) or head back and help if required.
route was long but not undoable, Suzuki owners club did weekend camp this weekend and rideouts was 85 miles which I thought was silly.
lunch could have been better, northy talked us out of a possible financial mess and hotel got uppity about time, a couple of urns of soup and cold sandwiches would have allowed more flexibility, but also knowing more accurate numbers, perhaps saying if your going lunch is £4~ I'll assume everyone wants fed and is happy with cost unless they opt out 72 hrs b4. Maybe a bit harsh but possibly necessary. Think that's enough for now;)

[petevtwin650]

What all you guys achieved was nothing short of miraculous from the rideouts to the lunch to the brekkies.

Sure things can always be improved and honed but that comes with experience. Given the miles jointly covered and the mixed abilities the ****-up factor was negligable although it did unfortunately impact with timings. Next year you'll have more people with more experience and that will help I'm sure.

[Blue Flame]

Evening 'relaxation'. We did not have anywhere ideal set up for us all to group together with our 'tinnies' or to organise an evening barbecue. The end result of this was the break up of the group as some headed off to pub down the road, some hung back at the campsite and some stayed at the campsite bar and it therefore started to get fragmented & expensive. Yeah the AR08 evenings also degenerated a bit even with that facility but that was primarily the weather. It would be ideal in my opinion if this could be better for the ecosse one.

Rideout Length. The total mileage on the main day was I think a bit too long. I did not go to the dukes pass element as it was late in the day, I was getting tired and a bit fed up. That was probably due partly to the extended stops due to the thankfully minor incidents but in any event we need to allow in a factor for this and cut the overall route length down.

Lunch. I think that this should be in a town or village with a choice of facilities and peeps just told to be back at a certain time. The hotel this year was OK but if I had had a choice I would have preferred to decide for myself what I wanted to do about food whether it was a takeway or a sit down somewhere.

The Callander stop was a good example of the type of place more suitable for lunch but with as I say clear directions about what time we are reconvening.

'Trail Bosses' ;) This is essentially the designated marker system in disguise. I worry when I see this happening about the self inflicted pressure that they put on themselves to get through the pack because of an internal belief that the ride will go pear shaped unless they get to the next junction in front of everybody. I would rather that we stuck to the original plan in that everybody is made clear about the drop off system at the beginning of the ride and that they are issued with maps on the day that clearly show the junctions. I don't think we as a group should be advocating a more formal set of markers.

Marshalling out of stops Hmmm... I was not really comfortable about this set up. Left hand turns yeah ok. I was uncomfortable with the safety of right hand ones We should always endeavour to have a stop which would entails a left hand turn out of the stop area.

[Endellion]

<edited a wee bit for length>

The campsite was a good place for a base but agree with comments about late nite shenannigans and also bugs.

As regards the ride itself I had NO idea why the same people kept burning past me at warp speed until i saw these same people at the junctions, I then knew to get out of the way when I saw certain bikes. It took me a while to catch on. I thought that this worked very well and it was obvious that some people had just took it upon themselves to do this, thanks. Could benefit if these folk were indeed marked next time as I for one was unaware. It really helped when I found myself on my own a one point that the guys up front stopped so I knew where to go as the maps I brought never got used, a testament to the job they did.

<EDIT- they weren't the markers, marking as explained was being done by whoever happened to be first to a junction.>

As regards distance covered, I thought that although slightly too long for me to do all on Sat the roads were cracking and thanks Northy for pointing out that the first optional loop at the hotel was the best road cause I fancied kipping on the grass, however it was my favorite road of the weekend.

Communication was great I thought, perhaps flyers or someting with some of the essential details to hand out on the day? I know we could all print out the maps posted but some people forget or can't. I for one don't mind doing something like this next time but I am far too dis-organised to tackle major tasks :mrgreen: Would love to do something to help though.

[tosher]

My opinions on the ride out , as this was my first take, it with a pinch of salt or maybe just a different view .

The marker system that was used on the day worked well I thought. If you feel the need to add armbands or high vis vests so be it, but it only seems to take away some of the flexibility that the system allows . Pretty much anyone riding that near the front knows what they are doing and are generally fast enough to make their way through the group .

One person has to be in charge and delegate it is the only thing that works anything else leads to arguments and fall outs . I thought it was well organised Its a biker weekend not a regimented Sunday school trip, there has to be some personal responsibility .

It's Scotland there will always be midges it really is down to luck how the weather has been as to how many there will be .

I think the massacre should be organised for the Ecosse members , The fact that there was so many travelled so far was amazing and I take my hat off to them , but they came all that way for the roads and if it is limited to central scotland you are limiting the choices of roads . I recon you organise it and if people fancy it they will come anyway . They all must have concrete ar$es anyway .

[fizzwheel]

I worry when I see this happening about the self inflicted pressure that they put on themselves to get through the pack because of an internal belief that the ride will go pear shaped unless they get to the next junction in front of everybody.

I think the thing is with marking is that you choose markers who are experienced riders and at marking so they dont do this. It was something I made a conscious effort to do with the AR and when I asked Sid Squid for help as I felt we needed more markers he asked people who he knew woudlnt put themselves at risk and were experienced riders, so I think what I am saying is that you choose the right people.

Also if you are going down this route you need to make sure you have enough markers otherwise if you have alot of junctions you run out and unless you have people who help out like on the 2nd leg of the AR route junctions dont get marked and you have chaos.

The reason we had dedicated markers at the AR was that it was a much much bigger group. Yes you had a big group for the Massacre but it was half the size of the AR group. So I dont think you need dedicated markers, but Hi-viz for Lead and TEC is sensible though I think.

I was happy to do big milleage as I wanted to see the country, I thought the optional loops worked well also I thought the flexability was good so that you could shorten the route due to headaches or bad weather etc etc. If it had been wet on Saturday the pace would have gone down and you'd have never got everybody round.

I thought that arrangements for breakfast and lunch were spot on.

I think the only thing that I could nitpick about ( and I am being very picky ) Was it would have been beneficial I think to have the start point where there was fuel. I rode on Friday a fair way from the last fuel stop to the campsite and I had 1/2 tank or so, but if you could have got a start point with fuel you could have ensured everybody filled up at the start ad then you wouldnt have got fragmented fueling, but it sorted itself out anyway.

I thought all the stops were well planned and came just when I was thinking "I need a wee and a drink" so that was good.

The campsite was good, you're always going to get fragmentation in that sort of size group, same as we did at the AR, also people like to do different things rather than herdig them into one thing and forcing people to socialise its better I think to let peeps have some freedom to do what they want to. I spoke to loads of people who I hadnt met before or people that I had met at the AR but didnt get chance to speak to properly so that was good to.

I'd agree on the photos as well, its really nice to have some photos of you on your bike taken on the day. I've got plenty of my bike, but not many of me on my bike its another element to add to the memories of the weekend, but I would think that should be easy to sort. On the AR I text'd Liz as we left the last fuel stop and because she knew how long it would take to get us to where she would be photographing the rideout she was there in plenty of time. Unfortunately the Police officier ruined the first photo shoot attempt though...

I hope my waffling is useful feedback :D

[northwind]

'Trail Bosses' ;) This is essentially the designated marker system in disguise. I worry when I see this happening about the self inflicted pressure that they put on themselves to get through the pack because of an internal belief that the ride will go pear shaped unless they get to the next junction in front of everybody.

Ah, now here I wasn't clear I think. I think some of what Blue Flame described went on at the last 2 ARs (naming no names...) but the idea here isn't to have designated markers, it's just to have more people in the group who people can ask questions of, who can spread info at stops, help keep the group together... And on the road, deal with incidents, take over marking important junctions if they want to or tweak a marker point, go and find stragglers if someone wanders off to get petrol... They're absolutely NOT just markers, in fact I'd say marking's about the least important thing for them to do- anyone can mark, not everyone can deal with a breakdown or a minor off. And carving through the pack's not needed for this.

KG nails the one I'm thinking of... Lead and TEC I think works brilliantly but not if the TEC gets stuck. Having a sensible person or two at the back, to deal with things like offs or people dropping out, would have been very effective at that point. (the timing of that one was mad- the shadow was near the back anyway when he had to stop, and then gerbrox returned after his crash so he'd actually left and rejoined- both things happened at the same time. Then he had to get fuel, and then he had to get a jump start. So, by the time this all happened there was nobody else around but me (then Stuarty when we got to the petrol station). It wasn't really the carsh that caused the delay. LOTS of lessons in that one, and that's what gave me the idea.)

It also covers one of my big fears- TEC falls off/breaks down :mrgreen:

The biggest problem with the stops was that I knew where we were supposed to do a 5-minute stop or a fuel splash, but I didn't arrive til everyone had already wandered off. That was plain stupid, there needed to be people there straight away who could spread the word. The most obvious here being Callander- by the time I arrived everyone had scattered so there was really no chance of getting away again in a hurry.

[northwind]

As regards the ride itself I had NO idea why the same people kept burning past me at warp speed until i saw these same people at the junctions, I then knew to get out of the way when I saw certain bikes. It took me a while to catch on. I thought that this worked very well and it was obvious that some people had just took it upon themselves to do this, thanks. Could benefit if these folk were indeed marked next time as I for one was unaware. It really helped when I found myself on my own a one point that the guys up front stopped so I knew where to go as the maps I brought never got used, a testament to the job they did.


They weren't actually supposed to be marking :mrgreen: Some people are just fast, and others like to cover the junctions. That works fairly well in the drop-off markers system, people can do this if they want but nobody has to. Though nobody should be having to move over more than usual as a result- it's just like any other day out, if you see a fast guy in the mirror who wants past it makes sense to make some space if you can safely.

[carelesschucca]

Instead of have people marking the route why not get highly recognisable signs put up along the route. i know its a hassle putting them up but if they are visible to everyone we should be fine... i'll admit i missed most of what was going on, as i was right up the front... the link riders job will be slightly easier, we have plenty of riders in the Ecosse group that can help people pointing in the right direction...

As for Location we could go south next year as there are plenty of decent roads (if not quite as good as going north) in the Borders, it might attract more people from down south...

lets be honest here for a first attempt at something this big i think it ran quite well... Northy you've gotta stop being hard on yourself... i always moan that the stops are too long on ride outs, but when you've got upto 50 bikes and riders at completely different levels you've gotta give fair breaks to everyone...

lets also be honest the campsite wasn't that bad if we'd been given free reign we'd have had high numbers of people missing for the rideout...

[stewie]

I thought it was a great weekend personally, I cant talk for the ride, but everything else was fine, if I had any suggestions it would be to have a central boozing /bbq /chat area, I wandered off down the pub cos I thought we were all heading down there, then felt a bit guilty when I realised a lot of peeps stayed at the campsite, other than that though, and thats not a criticism btw, had a good time, dont worry about how far it is to travel for the southern lot though, if you want to go you will do and if you cant be ar$ed you wont, simple as that.

[TEC]

Ok so I wasn't on the ride out but .....

The drop-off system does work .....

Very true, its been used on much larger groups than you had and has worked very well :) Dedicated markers are only really any use on a rideout were if anyone drops out they are left behind and the whole group stays together. If, as was happening, people ride at their own pace, then the group will get split up and with such a large group, a dedicated marker will need to exceed the speed limits by a lot to get ahead again, unless you have enough markers out front to begin with. Never had trail bosses before but sounds like a good idea to deal with stuff so the main run can keep moving.

4) Timekeeping. My bad here....

Not sure but I do suspect that when you pre-ran the route you moved at the speeds you normally ride ;) A suggestion here, next time pre-run the route at no more than 50mph, if you get stuck behind a caravan/truck, stay behind it for longer than you would normally, it'll give you a better idea how long a ride will take. Oh and for stops, don't just look at them, actually stop and spend at least 10 mins (unless fuel*) more than the planned time there except lunch, add 30 mins to that one ;)

*Fuel stops, ok aware the SV is short ranged :rolleyes: but that should be part of your overall planning, ideally only have one in the middle of the run or if the overall ride is that long then midway stops planned but for such a large group you are looking at a about an hour stop each time

I rashly thought people would pay attention when I said GET FUEL BEFOREHAND and GET FUEL NOW :)

There is only really one way to deal with this, be brutal and let them know where the next stop is and say see you there, maybe :rolleyes: If they don't pay attention and fuel when everyone else does then chances are they wont pay attention to other bits ;)

Sit-down lunch OR lunch in a real tourist hub that can deal with serious numbers

Now that you are aware timings don't always go to plan ;) Think the latter option unless you have somewhere that can be very flexible about times and fare, tourist hub can be good but you will need to nail down the leaving time and no compromise.

Better photos-....

All down to timing as well ;) No promises for next year but I may have a new camera to play with as well :)

Instead of have people marking the route why not get highly recognisable signs put up along the route.

Although this sounds good it only takes a mischief maker to nick one after the lead group has passed for it all to go to pot and you get the added problem of who puts the signs up and when

From what I've read, for a first attempt you did a lot better than other annual ride outs that have been doing this for years so well done :)

[dizzyblonde]

Evening 'relaxation'.
Rideout Length.
Lunch.

Marshalling out of stops .

The marker system that was used on the day worked well I thought. If you feel the need to add armbands or high vis vests so be it, but it only seems to take away some of the flexibility that the system allows . Pretty much anyone riding that near the front knows what they are doing and are generally fast enough to make their way through the group .

One person has to be in charge and delegate it is the only thing that works anything else leads to arguments and fall outs . I thought it was well organised Its a biker weekend not a regimented Sunday school trip, there has to be some personal responsibility .

It's Scotland there will always be midges it really is down to luck how the weather has been as to how many there will be .

I think the massacre should be organised for the Ecosse members , The fact that there was so many travelled so far was amazing and I take my hat off to them , but they came all that way for the roads and if it is limited to central scotland you are limiting the choices of roads . I recon you organise it and if people fancy it they will come anyway . They all must have concrete ar$es anyway .

I agree with Blue flame on the accomodation, although the site had good facilities and catered for us in wigwams or those in tents, it was a bit draconic when it came to 'lights out' and there wasn't much of a comfortable area to sit and chin wag in, as there were other folk we invaded space in at times. The look of the old geezers faces sat on the chalet veranda spoke volumes. A site with a little more oomph for drinking and letting our hair down would be preferrable. But it was a good site for other reasons all the same
I did get tired on the rideout length( but only as I had ridden 260 miles the day before and after) But northwind gave us the option, and i was man or girl enough to admit I needed to get off the ride. Perhaps one or two felt they had to carry on jsut because..maybe wrong on this, don't want argument over it either
Lunch was great, but northy did have to make up the difference...shame, but as he said...he made it back later. i'm not sure people finding their own food in a town would be ideal...although it did work AR07
Dunno about marshalling, though it was done fine this year

Tosher, I think the main reason for Northy inviting us further down the country was this...he rides every year to the AR so someone should be able to do the same for the Ecosse. A lot of us know each other from the ARs anyway! and its good to catch up with friends

And no I don't have a concrete Ar$$E...cause I had Northwinds corbin seat on mine...so I cheated:p sort of, my head is made of concrete instead...I get a bee in my bonnet travelling vast distances to see friends,.....and I do:cool:

[fizzwheel]

it's just to have more people in the group who people can ask questions of, who can spread info at stops, help keep the group together... And on the road, deal with incidents, take over marking important junctions if they want to or tweak a marker point, go and find stragglers if someone wanders off to get petrol... They're absolutely NOT just markers,

that sounds like a really good idea. It'd certainly help the majority of the ride to flow and you wont get left with markers sat and junctions for ages not knowing what is going on. I've seen it on other rides ( not .org ones ) where people just get bored with waiting so they just ride on regardless.

[northwind]

lets be honest here for a first attempt at something this big i think it ran quite well... Northy you've gotta stop being hard on yourself...

I think it went very well :) This is the nitpicking thread :mrgreen:

[fizzwheel]

AR08 was held about 4 miles from my house... I rode past the campsite on my way up to the Massacre... it was 494 miles from my front door to the campsite. So yep it was a fair way to travel.

[dizzyblonde]

<edit for AR stuff- NW>

No probs chick;) ere don't forget Blueflame rode that far with Northy(I think) In fact Scotland and Somerset(the AR) for me was about the same..250 odd miles each way.....+ rideout
I would like to make a serious point though...... next year it must be on a sunny weekend:p

I must admit, that it wasn't unreasonable for cost..i.e the camping side, perhaps if the site were more clear about the wigwam being hired for 3 nights and I'd have to pay for three nights, instead of the two, i'd have thought twice, but it was the luxury of not having the extra weight. I'd certainly like to see another venue having an option for the tent fearing folk!
The plastic came out for all petrol and i were dead skint allll weekend, and I still had a great time, i'm pretty sure you couldn't get a much cheaper weekend TBH. I make the most of these bike weekends, as I really don't have any me time. And believe me, the Ecosse massacre kept Dizzy from loosing her marbles:mrgreen:

[gerbrox]

Maybe just me and being new, not knowing anyone and turning up bang on 10 on the sat, but it would have been good if the tea shirts were handed out prior and or the bikes were temperarily marked or something. 40 odd people to meet and chat to was good, I'll stay longer next time.

[on yer bike]

Maybe just me and being new, not knowing anyone and turning up bang on 10 on the sat, but it would have been good if the tea shirts were handed out prior and or the bikes were temperarily marked or something. 40 odd people to meet and chat to was good, I'll stay longer next time.

Some people had sv650.org stickers on their bikes, there was a lot of people that didn't know anyone either, My rule is if you see an sv or a group of svs, you ask them if they are members. If they aren't then you force them by gun point to join.

We aren't allowed to put a massive banner up at the start point, it may attract too much atttention.

There were reasons for the Tshirts were not handed out till after the rideout. Party due to the fact that some people hadn't paid and people turning up at different times made it inpossible to keep track of. There was the option of asking your tshirt to be delivered before the rideout, but as far as I know no one requested this.

Turning up on the friday would have helped you though as I was there to welcome people, then everyone else joined in as more and more people turned up.

So If you want to get to know people at a big (yearly weekend) rideout then it is really best to turn up before the rideout sets off, as there isn't much time once its started (that is until someone fills thier bike with diesel :cheers:)

[appollo1]

[quote=tosher;1611882] <edited AR stuff- NW>

Ok so this thread is a post mortem for this years Glencoe Massacre - don't want to sound harsh but the AR is a totally different weekend.

Back to Northys questions/points.

This was my first weekend at an event like this and first weekend camping and I had a great time.

Location was good but yes being told 4 times when i 'checked in ' at the site that there was to be no noise after 10.30 did annoy me and i hadn't even set up my tent. Kids running about between the tents during the night obviously had their own rules.

Route was good with the optional extras (oo-er) but due to various delays !! it did drag on a bit and i know due to the distances travelled by various people there were a few knackered riders. Now please dont take offence at this but when there was a fuel mix up delay there was a lot of waiting about. I know that evreyone was concerned about what had happened but maybe IMO if the slower riders had been given the opportunity to carry on then some of the faster more experienced riders may have waited then i am sure they would have caught up at Callander. Just an idea and sorry if I offend anyone.

Lunch - brilliant but if a location/hotel is arranged again then timing is essential so as to not annoy the manager. A Callander type location would be better IMHO as it gives everyone a food option.

breakfast and cleaning up after - well done to KG and Ralph but if there were more volunteers to get this started in the morning then it would take the pressure off them. I was up early with a few others every morning and would have happilly got breakfast started but didn't want to step on any toes.

The ride out marker system I found very confusing. I knew there was Carelesschucca at the front and Northy at the back but everything in between was confusing. When I got to a roundabout/junction and someone was sat there I was waved on in the direction of travel but thought I was to take over as the marker.

Northwind took a lot on in organising this and i think for next year after the success of this years it will be better attended. On that note delegation is required. I know that there were a lot of riders who knew the routes but most didn't. Maps were put on the original thread but how many people actually printed them off? Next year if someone loads a map to show the route and people want one, i can print copies and laminate them so that each rider has their own copy and should something happen then everyone knows where the next stop would be and make their way there.

[yorkie_chris]

Well you said negativity was welcome:

The bugs... aaahhhhrrrg. Nothing to be done about that really though, except maybe an 11 tonne can of raid to be released the day before we all arrive? :-P

The campsite... food and booze wasn't cheap, but it's the middle of nowhere and I didn't expect it to be. The only unexpected drawback was nowhere lit to hang around after official "bedtime"

The rideout... the only problem which I saw were the delays at various stops, I'm not sure how to get round this other than shouting a lot at people and making it more clear when to fill up.



The marking is an odd one, hi vis would make some sense, but then you're not letting nature take its course with who ends up at the front. I think the best thing about the second man drop-off is that whoevers on form that day ends up going their own pace untill they reach the front, then can drop off and repeat the cycle. With a designated marker system, what are you meant to do if you're not a marker and end up at the front, just sit there bimbling?

Overall I'm in favour of the system used this time. For people who didn't know why people were passing them, it's because they chose a quicker pace. IMO a high vis vest shouldn't mean any special defference by other riders as you should be showing the same courtesy to anyone passing you where safe. Anyway, the marking worked fine. I'll shut up now. :-P

Gripes, you asked for them. It was a top weekend summed up with :mrgreen::twisted::smt040:mrgreen::smt040


Northy you mentioned the problems which would have been caused if you were out of action due to you taking such a lead in the organisation. I believe in having a leader as comittees tend to pi$$ around whereas a leader can make a decision. What about getting yourself a first mate, deputy or even your very own bitch, who'll be involved enough to take over in case the "main man" can't make it for whatever reason.

[northwind]

when there was a fuel mix up delay there was a lot of waiting about. I know that evreyone was concerned about what had happened but maybe IMO if the slower riders had been given the opportunity to carry on then some of the faster more experienced riders may have waited then i am sure they would have caught up at Callander.

The ride out marker system I found very confusing. I knew there was Carelesschucca at the front and Northy at the back but everything in between was confusing. When I got to a roundabout/junction and someone was sat there I was waved on in the direction of travel but thought I was to take over as the marker.

Northwind took a lot on in organising this and i think for next year after the success of this years it will be better attended. On that note delegation is required. I know that there were a lot of riders who knew the routes but most didn't. Maps were put on the original thread but how many people actually printed them off?

The fuel situation should have been simple- everyone was told fill up before, and where the nearest station was, and there was fuel at Benderloch which every bike should have been able to reach in one jump, even if they hadn't filled up since before glasgow. But, maybe that message didn't get across, or maybe it was just unrealistic to expect everyone to actually listen, not sure.

If I was doing it again I'd start at Arrochar, that was a much less good starting location in general but it would have helped for fuel and that's probably more important. But, I have to say it drove me mental that anyone needed fuel at Glencoe, when they'd sat opposite a petrol station and watched everyone fill up 30 minutes earlier, and when all of the route plans and descriptions had Benderloch as a fuel stop. I'm going to not say any more about that for various reasons.

The marker system, well... I did cover that in the pre-ride briefing, and asked if everyone was clear. But again, understandable- this is where having more people, trail bosses, could be very helpful as there's more people to ask questions, spread info etc. At the AR the briefings are split into smaller groups, that's good that. If you had stopped, though, the marker could have explained what was up. Or, no offence, but if you'd just asked...

Giving people maps... I have to say, no, it's not a route I'd go down, it doesn't work well- we've done it with 10 people and still lost some. This is why we mark- if 50 people try to read a map and follow a route, every corner will have 5 bikers with upside down maps arguing, and a 10 mile ride takes an hour and only 45 people end up there at the end. Also, there are times when you go off map- for instance at Tyndrum CC stopped us at a different place than we'd planned, because the numbers had reduced. Maps cost you flexibility.

But with the dropped off markers, every junction has someone on it who should be pointing you in the right direction. You simply don't need to know where you're going. On AR07, I didn't even notice when we rode into a different country :mrgreen:

[northwind]

Instead of have people marking the route why not get highly recognisable signs put up along the route. i know its a hassle putting them up but if they are visible to everyone we should be fine...

Signs are easier to miss than bikes, is the problem there- and it's inflexible, we wouldn't have been able to throw out the A811 section if we were dependant on signs for instance.

I did want to sign a couple of junctions as a belt-and-braces, but in the end I got ****ed the night before. The right decision :mrgreen:

[northwind]

OK, so what I'm seeing- stop me if I'm wrong...

Some people were concerned about the marker system, but this seems to be mostly down to misunderstandings on how it works, rather than a problem with the system itself. I thought I'd done enough to explain it beforehand but maybe not.

The rest and fuel stops we all agree were trouble. I put that down to me being at the back, there should have been people there at each stop who could keep things on track right from the moment people arrived- "GET FUEL HERE".

Seems fairly unanimous about the accomodation and "aftershow"- not bad but could be better, invite less bugs next year, better entertainment facilities.

[Endellion]

Ok so as regards the marker system Northy, I think you are right, Its not that I myself thought it didn't work, what I was trying to say was that it confused me as nothing had been explained on the day about people marking the junctions, maybe I didn't hear it. As I haven't been on that many rideouts I was a little confused by it but thought that it worked really well. I think that more 'sub bosses' would help, and one big chief.

As regards the overtaking, allowing the faster ones to overtake, I am fine with being considerate towards anyone who wants to overtake me but I saw some pretty dodgy overtaking on the day, seemed like some people had to prove themselves or something, In a biggish group like this there were a few people that in my opinion took some unnecessary risks, backed up in part by the fact that I saw a few headlights flashed at the bikes overtaking, quite a lot of overtaking coming up to corners and when at road works it was as if the cars waiting at the front were invisible, do they not have the right to go through the green light too or do us bikers have priority, must have read the highway code wrong. This must seem like fun to some, or even how they normally ride but doesn't really help our image...

[petevtwin650]

Traffic lights can be an area where the group can be consolidated as long as it's done sensibly. Same as getting to the front is fine providing it can be done without endangering others. However it's inevitable that in a group that big there will be differing opinions of other peoples riding, plus peeps get carried away with the atmosphere. The fact that there was only one off, no police presence, no car drivers stopping and waving fists (as far as I know) indicates that by and large we were no worse than 50 independent bikes out for a jolly.

I did notice a lot off thank you waves to vehicles that made room for us or allowed us through the traffic. That was good.

[gerbrox]

Surely the marker system worked, the point being that no-one took the wrong turning or anything like that? The obvious downside is the person designated to mark and rushing to get to there.

[Endellion]

Traffic lights can be an area where the group can be consolidated as long as it's done sensibly. Same as getting to the front is fine providing it can be done without endangering others. However it's inevitable that in a group that big there will be differing opinions of other peoples riding, plus peeps get carried away with the atmosphere. The fact that there was only one off, no police presence, no car drivers stopping and waving fists (as far as I know) indicates that by and large we were no worse than 50 independent bikes out for a jolly.

I did notice a lot off thank you waves to vehicles that made room for us or allowed us through the traffic. That was good.

No disrespect is meant to the vast experience of the org, I haven't been riding that long, however as a driving instructor I think that the risks some people took, as I say overtaking approaching blind bends and riding down the centre line while cars were coming the other way seemed a bit silly

The overtaking done on a green light while the cars were trying to move out is what I refer to, not while the cars were stationary, they were trying to move out too

Sorry if this has gone off topic a little, please forgive me [-o<

[Blue Flame]

The fuel situation should have been simple- everyone was told fill up before, and where the nearest station was, and there was fuel at Benderloch which every bike should have been able to reach in one jump, even if they hadn't filled up since before glasgow. But, maybe that message didn't get across, or maybe it was just unrealistic to expect everyone to actually listen, not sure.

I'll hold up my hand as a guilty peep on this topic and yes I was aware of the request to fuel up first. In my case my only reason is that I originally thought was that there was a station at Crianlarich that I could top up as my route was bringing me down to the campsite from the North.....but there wasn't, it was chucking it down and I thought feck it and headed down to the campsite. **** happens but this can be avoided by planning a start point near a fuel stop as with any large group there will always be some numpty like me that needs fuel early on :mrgreen:

......... I have to say it drove me mental that anyone needed fuel at Glencoe, when they'd sat opposite a petrol station and watched everyone fill up 30 minutes earlier, and when all of the route plans and descriptions had Benderloch as a fuel stop. I'm going to not say any more about that for various reasons.
I appreciate your concerns with this point.......however.... when we arrived at Benderloch we were already running late, you had allowed ten minutes for the stop and there was no way the refuelling could be done in that space of time when you looked at the number of bikes at the pumps. I for one made a decision not to delay the group further as I was aware that the lunch stop was going to be protracted and a simple jink down to Glencoe at lunch would not delay matters. If I got back in time for the optional loop then fine but I wasn't bothered if I hadn't.

Giving people maps... I have to say, no, it's not a route I'd go down, it doesn't work well- we've done it with 10 people and still lost some.
I suggested this not as an essential "you will get lost if you don't keep referring to this" scenario but more of a courtesy and an insurance policy to both help the individual out in the event that they do miss a turn but also as a handy reference to the individual for fuel stops etc. I had printed one off but I was aware of a few that had not.

FWIW I think that the event was absolutely brilliantly organised (if that's correct grammar) so let's keep that in perspective. I am just nit picking at minor tweaks that could be made...as the thread had asked. :mrgreen:

[dizzyblonde]

Ok so as regards the marker system Northy, I think you are right, Its not that I myself thought it didn't work, what I was trying to say was that it confused me as nothing had been explained on the day about people marking the junctions, maybe I didn't hear it. As I haven't been on that many rideouts I was a little confused by it but thought that it worked really well. I think that more 'sub bosses' would help, and one big chief.

As regards the overtaking, allowing the faster ones to overtake, I am fine with being considerate towards anyone who wants to overtake me but I saw some pretty dodgy overtaking on the day, seemed like some people had to prove themselves or something, In a biggish group like this there were a few people that in my opinion took some unnecessary risks, backed up in part by the fact that I saw a few headlights flashed at the bikes overtaking, quite a lot of overtaking coming up to corners and when at road works it was as if the cars waiting at the front were invisible, do they not have the right to go through the green light too or do us bikers have priority, must have read the highway code wrong. This must seem like fun to some, or even how they normally ride but doesn't really help our image...

I only got confused once on a marked junction, but that was mainly down to the fact the poor bloke couldn't get his helmet off in time to point at the left turn...but then why am I called Dizzy?? turned round and caught up in no time with the group I'd been in front of.
As for dodgy overtakes.....well I hold my hands up on that one, I'm not the best at overtaking, and to be perfectly frank, although not super dangerous(apart from once up a hill with a caravan that suddenly decided to get faster) its all along a very slooooooow learning curve. I for one came back from Scotland with a few new skills in judgement and one rung higher on the improvement ladder. Perhaps you being a driving instructor puts your thoughts at a different angle but I can't drive and only see the road from a biker s point of view( and that'll be from...yes it can squeeze through there!)
As Pete pointed out all getting in at temp lights to the front, can be a helpful way of regrouping, and I didn't see any angry car drivers either, although I did think some of em may have been peeved when they didn't get through and had to wait longer. But I was taught to filter on my DAS 4 years back, so I do it considerately and without risk to myself or others, and if I can find room to be at the front....then I will jolly well go there, as will others. But on the whole with a group so large it went very smoothly, even the offs were very very minor. With so many inexperienced riders I'd have thought there would have been a major one, but heads up to all those guys.

And I will let any person who wants to be faster than me by, no skin off my nose, I do my own thing, and don't jump to be like a performing seal, and show off to my mates, or even to prove something to myself, funny not many people did go past me, and a lot of time I got out there on my own, at some point I thought i may have gone the wrong way again( as I can't read maps and ride) and slowed down til I had company. I invite anyone to overtake usually with a good wave over my head.....

[yorkie_chris]

Any overtakes on other bikes which are closer to filtering gaps, which some people may not be too comfy with, generally result when people slow down in corners and gun it on the straights. Never anything personal, just making progress.

[dizzyblonde]

as I say overtaking approaching blind bends and riding down the centre line while cars were coming the other way seemed a bit silly



someone point out if i'm wrong, but...I think in these cases some of the folk have taken advanced riding lessons in some form either bikesafe, IAM etc. I do know that some folk go out into the opposite side on a bend to see if there is traffic coming, and give them a better view of the bend they are taking, riding down the centre line will probably come into that category somewhere and have an explanation. I myself ride quite near to the line in places, but thats to help me see ahead of a car and for my prescence in their mirror

[fizzwheel]

I think though we're in danger of wandering of into specifics of group riding / riding in a rideout which I dont think Northy was after.

At the end of the day I ride for myself I ride how I perceive things for me to be safe and I make sure I dont put other people at risk.

I thought the standard of riding was high I saw one or two things that I thought "I wouldnt do that" but I was never put at risk so I didnt really care either way.

[dizzyblonde]

I think though we're in danger of wandering of into specifics of group riding / riding in a rideout which I dont think Northy was after.

At the end of the day I ride for myself I ride how I perceive things for me to be safe and I make sure I dont put other people at risk.

I thought the standard of riding was high I saw one or two things that I thought "I wouldnt do that" but I was never put at risk so I didnt really care either way.

Amen to that one;):cool:

[-Ralph-]

It's impossible to judge somebody elses overtake unless they are wearing a helmet cam and you are watching it. If you stand in the road and look straight ahead, you often only need to walk a few metres forward or to the side to turn a blind bend into one you can see round. I'm not saying that stupid overtakes don't happen of course they do, I'm just saying what looks stupid to you may not have been blind for the rider. They could even have had a view of the road ahead beforehand and cleared the bend of traffic using a process of elimination. So unless you follow a rider closely and he does it every five minutes, try to give the benefit of the doubt. You can't do it the same in a car because you can't adjust position in the road to improve visibility by more than a metre or so, and you can't see over the hedges, on a bike your visibility is much more flexible.

Right - back on topic I hope!

The reason there was no explanation of markers doing junctions is because we weren't intending to have any. Just each rider wait and mark for the rider behind at each junction, then move off, with a lead rider and a tail end charlie.

Thats fine if your all in one big group. I think what went wrong was very early on at Arrochar, loads of bikes stopped for fuel and the group split in two.

I hadn't seen Northy leave Tarbet and I knew that 'cos I blocked the traffic at the main junction. The cars were being too impatient give way to such a huge load of bikes and trying to push through the middle of the group as it crossed the right hand turn, it was dangerous and cars were getting aggressive, so I just blocked the road and bought the car drivers to a complete halt. Until Loch Fyne I didn't know why Northy was delayed. Next year I think we need to have people arranged to stop the traffic at busy junctions.

When the group split in two at the Arrochar fuel stop, Chucca was away to Loch Fyne and Northy was stuck with the accident before Tarbet. Suddenly we had no lead rider and no TEC for about half the bikes on the rideout. Q and Indy took over TEC for the main group and I waited at the top of the hill for the those who had stopped for fuel. I expected them to wait for each other to refuel, and arrive together in a second group which I could lead, but they arrived in dribs and drabs. Bikes were really spread out, which is bad because a rider who can't see anyone else for miles starts to worry. People start turning back or turning off the route, in an assumption that they've gone the wrong way. Suddenly we needed markers.

Having trail bosses so that the TEC never gets left behind is a must for next year as if Northy had been at the back he would have stopped at Arrochar petrol station and I wouldn't have had to worry about the people there getting left behind or wandering off in the wrong direction.

After Inverary the group seemed to split in two again though I don't know why. Pete/Lissa and myself waited quite a while at Dalmally (Northy had said in his rideout directions if that junction wasn't marked he'd kill someone) and when the second half of the group didn't arrive, I left Pete and Lissa to catch the front group of riders. I was stuck behind a police car almost from Dalmally to Connel, and to my surprise nobody caught me, so Pete and Lissa must have been stopped for a while.

It wasn't until the stop after the Connel bridge that we regrouped again, then we managed to stay pretty much together for the rest of the rideout.

People who acted as "unofficial" markers and trail bosses were just doing the best they could, and what they thought best at the time, to keep everything together, and it worked, nobody got lost! But next year we need to formalise it.

[Lissa]

After Inverary the group seemed to split in two again though I don't know why. Pete/Lissa and myself waited quite a while at Dalmally (Northy had said in his rideout directions if that junction wasn't marked he'd kill someone) and when the second half of the group didn't arrive, I left Pete and Lissa to catch the front group of riders. I was stuck behind a police car almost from Dalmally to Connel, and to my surprise nobody caught me, so Pete and Lissa must have been stopped for a while.



Long enough for me to smoke a couple of cigarettes:D

We've done a lot of marking though, and know the golden rule.............you DO NOT leave until you either see the TEC or get a phone call telling you you can move.

[fizzwheel]

Thing is that nobody should leave a junction till TEC has gone gone by. That way it doesnt matter if you get a framented group or you get split up over along stretch of roads, people mark the junction and they wait. The only way the drop off works is if people trust it and they wait.

I thought it worked OK, and TBH I feel that its only being mentioned now because we had a few big group ride virgins on the ride.

I'm not sure about blocking junctions get bikes out, it just p*sses cage drivers off, it doesnt take much room to let them out and then overtake them on a bike anyway. I was waiting at one town on the Sunday ride for a good 10 minutes before I saw TEC but I knew he was coming and I waited stood and wandered about tll I saw him ( kilted ginger I think it was ) But I knew that he would eventually turn up and that I had been making progress so I knew I was in for a long wait.

Next year just make sure everybody knows to drop off. Make sure your lead rider waves, points geticulates at the junction the want marked so that 2nd man knows what is expected. When I've been doing lead I've sometimes stopped and made sure the 2nd man also stops and marks before riding on. You have to sometime be a little assertive with making sure 2nd man drops off.

I think the system used at the AR with splitting people up into smaller groups for the breif does really work well so everybody understands, Northwinds breifing was very good but I'm not so sure everybody heard what he had to say and thats perhaps why marking is being mooted as a niggle ?

[Endellion]

I'm not sure about blocking junctions get bikes out, it just p*sses cage drivers off, it doesnt take much room to let them out and then overtake them on a bike anyway.


Couldn't agree more

Sorry Northwind for going off topic earlier, Its a subject for another day methinks

[northwind]

People who acted as "unofficial" markers and trail bosses were just doing the best they could, and what they thought best at the time, to keep everything together, and it worked, nobody got lost! But next year we need to formalise it.

Yup- what you guys did on the fly is what proves to me that it's a good idea tbh, you really kept things together at the tricky spots and it made a huge difference. That first leg was about as bad as a stretch can get in a lot of ways, without having to totally stop the ride. And it was so short too! Hindsight's 20-20 but I think it's a great addition to the simple marker system with a large group. I was very lucky to have you guys in there...

[TEC]

Next year I think we need to have people arranged to stop the traffic at busy junctions.
Well unless you invite the police along to actually stop the first vehicle and then leave a marked rider there its not something you can legally do ;)

Oh and Northy, if you want I can point you in the direction of a very well written (not by me) ride out etiquette post on another forum. Explains everything about whats expected at the start (fuelled ready to go), the marker system and more

[Tilt]

IMO

For me, there were 5 obvious issues

1) It being too much my show-

You are an effective communicator the "show" was not prejudiced by over organisation by your self

2) The campsite. Yes, they were well located

NC

3) The route- we had to drop off a section and an optional ride, and with hindsight the route was just a wee bit too big.

The route permitted you the flexibility to drop off a bit. The ability to do "flex" the route in the future would still be a benefit. See your "good" point 5 below.

4) Timekeeping.

You were just far too nice and allowed us to daudle at stops

5) Communication. I decided at the last minute that though we didn't need markers,

I have never seen a drop off system fail when it has followed the basic diciplines. The key point is the ratio of drop off riders to the group. When the lead rider sees his drop off pool dwindling he simply slows down for a bit. More will be catching up shortly.

ohhh and the tail ender never passes (ever ever ever) the drop off guy.



1) Location was basically very good, not too far north and well located for good roads.
2) The optional loops.
3) Lunch. Thanks to KG, this worked very well. It's quite awkward timing wise as if the rideout time slips, we could be in trouble- but the sit-down lunch was very, very good I thought.

all good

4) and breakfast. This was just awesome, I love you guys, you give me sausages and coffee.

missed it :(

5) This is the big one... The whole thing was very flexible

yup


NOT TOO FAR NORTH! If people can't hit us in one day from most of the country, that's a mistake I feel.

Actually (and of course I realise this is a very personnal view) even though I start out from the Banbury area the one bit of Scotland I have not fully explored (or at least think there is more to explore) are those pionts generally well North of the Trossacks. I would have no problem with a location a far north as say Fort William.

[-Ralph-]

Looks like folk are against me on the blocking the roads then. Fair enough.

Personally though (wrong though this may be), the car drivers at that Tarbet junction were so selfish (especially the guy in the BMW that nearly knocked somebody off by aiming his car at a line of moving bikes and hitting the pedal), I couldn't give 2 ****'s if I pee'd them off :smt019

When the road was blocked by the accident (Shadow I think) the coach driver got out and started shouting at KG that they had to get the bike off the road as he didn't have time to wait. Needless to say KG sent him back into his cab quick smart!

Drivers are getting so selfish and aggressive up here, especially M8, Edinburgh City Bypass and anywhere in Glasgow.

[gerbrox]

Looks like folk are against me on the blocking the roads then. Fair enough.

Personally though (wrong though this may be), the car drivers at that Tarbet junction were so selfish (especially the guy in the BMW that nearly knocked somebody off by aiming his car at a line of moving bikes and hitting the pedal), I couldn't give 2 ****'s if I pee'd them off :smt019

When the road was blocked by the accident (Shadow I think) the coach driver got out and started shouting at KG that they had to get the bike off the road as he didn't have time to wait. Needless to say KG sent him back into his cab quick smart!

Drivers are getting so selfish and aggressive up here, especially M8, Edinburgh City Bypass and anywhere in Glasgow.


Don't remember that, cheers KG again!!!

[petevtwin650]

I think we should forget about how peeps percieved other riders riding. At the end of the day you can't really tell anyone what to or not to do, unless you have someone who is constantly pulling wheelies or being a total total ****. I saw good and bad riding. Like I do every day of the week.

Personally I'm in favour of stopping the traffic after a fuel or lunch stop, but only if all the bikes are ready to roll. Not fair to expect other road users to wait whilst somebody faffs around putting their gloves on or whatever.

Fuel stops are the biggest problem, Everybody should fill up at the designated FS. People often say "Oh but I get 150 miles until I need to fill up" then find that they need gas earlier cos riding in a group does that. So the Leader must insist.

This is still nit-picking though.:cool:

[TEC]

Looks like folk are against me on the blocking the roads then.....
Not really what I said ;) But you have to be carefull saying you will do it or arranging it before hand, if it just happens then it happens (been there and done that :) ). But it does need people to be ready to move on mass rather than in dribs and drabs and if at a junction they need to know what you are doing. Some people may not realise and stop to allow traffic to clear (as they would normally) leaving you sat in the middle of the road. Then you have filtering bikes to deal with as well, they may not know why the traffic in front of them have stopped and try to take the opportunity to get ahead only to be met by a mass of bikes not on their ride

[yorkie_chris]

Well stopping cars makes some sense in that it saves everyone overtaking them 2 miles down the road. But on the other hand, it's risky in a different way to turning out of a car park (or whatever) normally, it can and does aggravate the cagers and requires bottle on the part of the marshall and riders who are ready to move right there.

IMO something to be done very carefully if at all.

Personally it doesn't bother me at all passing line of cars/bikes/whatever further down the road (after pulling out normally) as riding in a big line tractor style doesn't appeal to me at all.

[northwind]

Oh and Northy, if you want I can point you in the direction of a very well written (not by me) ride out etiquette post on another forum. Explains everything about whats expected at the start (fuelled ready to go), the marker system and more

I know the one you mean- to be honest, I didn't think anyone would read it ;)

[Tiger 55]

You were just far too nice and allowed us to daudle at stops.
And you were far too nice waiting for those that went for fuel at Arrochar and Glencoe!

As for organisation, I'm a great believer in benign dictatorship and can't imagine anybody being corrupted by the absolute power of deciding campsite locations etc. In other words please please let's not have a committee! Have all the core organisers you want and all the Trail Bosses you want but dear god no, not a paralysing, smothering committee!

PS - Gil Favor is the One True Trail Boss!

[Luckypants]

And you were far too nice waiting for those that went for fuel at Arrochar and Glencoe!

The point about fuel stops is well made, but unfortunately there will always be a selfish numpty who needs fuel when no one else does and holds up the ride. Folks on the ride need to consider the group, not abdicate this to organisers.

For instance, we missed the fuel stop on the way to the camp site so headed up to Arrochar to fuel up before riding to the campsite on Friday night. Similarly, I elected not to get fuel at the stop before Glencoe because I wanted to get on with the ride. When we stopped for lunch, Claire and I let northy know what we were doing then shot off up to Glencoe village, filled up and were back by the time everyone else was eating soup. The point of this is, if riders consider the group then their fuel needs will not impact the ride - perhaps this needs to be reinforced before every rideout. I don't think the fuelling issue is unique to the massacre.

[petevtwin650]

I agree with LP. Alway a first time.:p

Peoples attitude can change on a rideout. They become herd beasts and need to pushed and prodded before they will do anything. You need someone who knows whats occuring and will take charge and be dominant. Difficult task though.

[Lissa]

Trail bosses!

Herd beasts!

Have you all been watching Rawhide?

:D:D:D

Maybe the next one should be called The Glencoe MOOssacre:p