Hydraulic clutch - advantages?

[Ed]

Does a hydraulic clutch offer any advantages over a conventional cable clutch? Just wondering. Did a search but all I found was some greek rubbish on a thread about converting to hydraulic and it didn't really answer the quezzie.

[embee]

The main thing is friction losses in the cable, "stiction" and the like, so hydraulic is often used where the loads are a bit high (bikes anyway). Good modern lined cables get round a lot of this.

The downside from the manufacturer's point of view is extra cost, weight, assembly time etc., though it does mean that cable runs are not an issue, the need to avoid sharp bends. Also a plus point is the self-adjusting aspect, like brakes. Like most things, it's a cost-benefit analysis decision. Most cars have cables because of the cost of manufacture/assembly.

[STRAMASHER]

Never had a hydraulic one snap!:mrgreen:

[Luckypants]

I understood that hydraulic clutches are used where a larger mechanical advantage is needed to operate the clutch. Typically this is because the clutch springs on more powerful bikes are stronger and need more force to move the springs (to separate clutch plates).

[Dangerous Dave]

Does a hydraulic clutch offer any advantages over a conventional cable clutch?
None really on a road bike.

[Blue_SV650S]

The hydraulic clutched bikes I have ridden (it must be only 2 or 3) have ALL been a bit 'snatchy' on the clutch. I might have just had an unlucky sample set, but given what I have just said, it'll hardly come as a massive surprise that I personally don't like the 'feel' (or lack thereof) on a hydraulic.

Thinking about the mechanics of it :smt115 probably the reason they seem to have less 'feel' and be more snatchy is that unlike a cable operated one that has an arm and worm gear, the movement is linear on a hydraulic clutch mechanism. The arm on a cable mechanism will mean the amount of movement is 'ramped' ... does that make sense? :scratch:

[Dangerous Dave]

Thinking about the mechanics of it :smt115 probably the reason they seem to have less 'feel' and be more snatchy is that unlike a cable operated one that has an arm and worm gear, the movement is linear on a hydraulic clutch mechanism. The arm on a cable mechanism will mean the amount of movement is 'ramped' ... does that make sense? :scratch:
It does to me.

[yorkie_chris]

Yup makes sense, and depending on the angle of the lever it can go either way.

[fastdruid]

Never had a hydraulic one snap!:mrgreen:

No but I've had seals die and weep, far cheaper and less hassle to replace a cable.

Pull in clutch, snick into gear fine, hold it there and you start to take off.
No sitting in 1st at the lights!

Druid

[DanAbnormal]

I had it on my VFR800. Felt just as good as a cable.

[ThEGr33k]

I understood that hydraulic clutches are used where a larger mechanical advantage is needed to operate the clutch. Typically this is because the clutch springs on more powerful bikes are stronger and need more force to move the springs (to separate clutch plates).

I think you are right. Also I believe most Hydraulic clutches need less room to fit.

The hydraulic clutched bikes I have ridden (it must be only 2 or 3) have ALL been a bit 'snatchy' on the clutch. I might have just had an unlucky sample set, but given what I have just said, it'll hardly come as a massive surprise that I personally don't like the 'feel' (or lack thereof) on a hydraulic.

Thinking about the mechanics of it :smt115 probably the reason they seem to have less 'feel' and be more snatchy is that unlike a cable operated one that has an arm and worm gear, the movement is linear on a hydraulic clutch mechanism. The arm on a cable mechanism will mean the amount of movement is 'ramped' ... does that make sense? :scratch:

I haven't had much of an issue with feel or it been snatchy on mine. It doesn't offer the same (not quite as lumpy if that makes sense?) feel as a cable but you deffo know when its biting and when its not.

[Ed]

This is the Greek rubbish I was referring to:

'o udraulikos sumplekths einai akoma pio moufa nomizw! exeis odhghsei kana ducatti na deis poso xalia einai?'

Do you remember writing that?:D

I asked cos I saw a GSXR 1000 at Craven Arms today, and whilst looking at all the bling spotted the clutch reservoir. I wasn't sure whether it was standard fit but it certainly looked like it. And Karl's bike (Hupermotard) has one, I can't honestly see any advantage but Blue yes what you say makes perfect sense.

[kwak zzr]

i prefere cable TBH you get more feel from a cable clutch but i can see why the bigger bikes like my old sv1000 use hydraulic.

[ThEGr33k]

This is the Greek rubbish I was referring to:

'o udraulikos sumplekths einai akoma pio moufa nomizw! exeis odhghsei kana ducatti na deis poso xalia einai?'

Do you remember writing that?:D



:confused:

[Ed]

:confused:

You're right to be confused, it was 600+ who posted that - sorry.

[600+]

so we all agree that what I wrote in Greek is true :)

[ThEGr33k]

so we all agree that what I wrote in Greek is true :)

I dont know what you wrote so until you say in English (cant be arsed to translate) then I cant say... :rolleyes:

[the_lone_wolf]

i've got a hydraulic clutch line on the 560, level of feel is fine for me, nowhere near as heavy as the SV, can flow with slow moving traffic without suffering hand fatigue - launching is a bit interesting because of the slipper clutch but the lever itself is really nice, certainly a bonus not having to adjust the cable to get it feeling right every now and again

but then it's top shelf magura kit as opposed to the presumably suzuki own brand cable system on the SV/DRZ

[ThEGr33k]

nowhere near as heavy as the SV, can flow with slow moving traffic without suffering hand fatigue - launching is a bit interesting because of the slipper clutch but the lever itself is really nice, certainly a bonus not having to adjust the cable to get it feeling right every now and again



You need to get a real mans bike :p the SV feels heavy? Jeez, it feels like pulling on nothing compaired to the falco! :( Good job I got Popeye :smt040

How does the slipper clutch effect setting off? Mine causes no issues that I can see or feel...

[yorkie_chris]

Why should the 560's slipper clutch affect launch? Aren't they only supposed to slip on the overrun?

[the_lone_wolf]

Why should the 560's slipper clutch affect launch? Aren't they only supposed to slip on the overrun?
the effect is almost like a twist and go when you start off, the clutch doesn't bite initially and then catches almost as if by itself, once engaged it's like having a normal clutch, you can roll off and on and it's the same, but if you disengage the clutch again it needs to re-engage or slip, although you don't feel the effect while your moving. don't know why it does it, but it's widely recognised by the SM racing guys and doesn't happen on bikes without slipper clutches - if you're ever on the island you're welcome to try it and see

greek: so everything about the falco is heavy?;)

[muffles]

the effect is almost like a twist and go when you start off, the clutch doesn't bite initially and then catches almost as if by itself, once engaged it's like having a normal clutch, you can roll off and on and it's the same, but if you disengage the clutch again it needs to re-engage or slip, although you don't feel the effect while your moving. don't know why it does it, but it's widely recognised by the SM racing guys and doesn't happen on bikes without slipper clutches - if you're ever on the island you're welcome to try it and see

greek: so everything about the falco is heavy?;)

Is it a 560/SM thing - my 750 (slipper clutch) doesn't feel different to the CBR (no slipper clutch), at least not in the drive characteristics (obviously it pulls away with a bit more go ;)). Also my 600 (slipper clutch) didn't feel different, and I had just changed from the SV. Maybe Suzuki slipper clutches don't have this "feature"? :)

[the_lone_wolf]

Maybe Suzuki slipper clutches don't have this "feature"? :)

perhaps in order to provide the effect required for supermoto racing the design has to be slightly different to the one used on a road bike? somehow i doubt people wouldn't switch from one design to another if it was able to provide the exact same effect without the slightly odd pulling away feel. the whole point of a slipper clutch on a road bike is to prevent the rear wheel sliding or locking when you downshift, on a supermoto it's designed to take a 5th to 1st run of changes with the clutch in then slide the rear wheel perfectly when the rider dumps the clutch lever, although the principle of operation is the same the purposes are diametrically opposite...

[muffles]

perhaps in order to provide the effect required for supermoto racing the design has to be slightly different to the one used on a road bike? somehow i doubt people wouldn't switch from one design to another if it was able to provide the exact same effect without the slightly odd pulling away feel. the whole point of a slipper clutch on a road bike is to prevent the rear wheel sliding or locking when you downshift, on a supermoto it's designed to take a 5th to 1st run of changes with the clutch in then slide the rear wheel perfectly when the rider dumps the clutch lever, although the principle of operation is the same the purposes are diametrically opposite...

It would certainly make more sense if it was on purpose... :)

[the_lone_wolf]

It would certainly make more sense if it was on purpose... :)
yep, tbh the effect is only really noticable if you're crawling along and slipping the clutch, holding the lever steady you can feel the clutch bite by itself, it's a gradual thing, not like dumping the clutch or anything so it's just something to be aware of...

if it were crap i'm pretty sure the 2001 and 2003 British Supermoto champion wouldn't have fitted it to this bike;)

[lukemillar]

yep, tbh the effect is only really noticable if you're crawling along and slipping the clutch, holding the lever steady you can feel the clutch bite by itself, it's a gradual thing, not like dumping the clutch or anything so it's just something to be aware of...

if it were crap i'm pretty sure the 2001 and 2003 British Supermoto champion wouldn't have fitted it to this bike;)

My STM doesn't have this effect either and that isn't carp! I thought all slippers were based on a ball-bearing and ramp design :scratch: and therefore should all work in a similar fashion. Maybe it's just a clutch adjustment thing?

[the_lone_wolf]

My STM doesn't have this effect either and that isn't carp! I thought all slippers were based on a ball-bearing and ramp design :scratch: and therefore should all work in a similar fashion. Maybe it's just a clutch adjustment thing?
the design is the same, but the back pressure adjustment is probably completely different for 100kg (ish) racing supermoto compared to a 200kg (ish) road / track bike

[ThEGr33k]

the effect is almost like a twist and go when you start off, the clutch doesn't bite initially and then catches almost as if by itself, once engaged it's like having a normal clutch

Mine some times does something slightly similar, itll be nicly slipping setting off then itll enguage even if you hold the lever at the same point... Not sure what that is. Nothing really bad mind once you are used to it, didnt think it was a slipper thing though.

Maybe you dont notice Muffles because your engine is smoother with its many small pistons?

but if you disengage the clutch again it needs to re-engage or slip, although you don't feel the effect while your moving.


When you down shift does your clutch feel lighter when the throttle is shut? Because of the weigh mine works when you down shift with closed throttle the clutch becomes feather lite... well compaired to normal.

greek: so everything about the falco is heavy?;)

Well when you have a pair of dust bin size pistons pounding away you need a strong clutch to transfer the push... guess little engines are good to use little clutches :p

How much do you weigh Mr Wolf?

perhaps in order to provide the effect required for supermoto racing the design has to be slightly different to the one used on a road bike? somehow i doubt people wouldn't switch from one design to another if it was able to provide the exact same effect without the slightly odd pulling away feel. the whole point of a slipper clutch on a road bike is to prevent the rear wheel sliding or locking when you downshift, on a supermoto it's designed to take a 5th to 1st run of changes with the clutch in then slide the rear wheel perfectly when the rider dumps the clutch lever, although the principle of operation is the same the purposes are diametrically opposite...

Hmmph damn was going to show you this (http://www.sv650.org/) review of the falco, which used to be there... But basically one of the riders was playing about with the falco and bacing it into the corners supermoto style, said the slipper clutch was great and he had no issue doing it.

[the_lone_wolf]

When you down shift does your clutch feel lighter when the throttle is shut? Because of the weigh mine works when you down shift with closed throttle the clutch becomes feather lite... well compaired to normal.

yep, feels the same

Well when you have a pair of dust bin size pistons pounding away you need a strong clutch to transfer the push... guess little engines are good to use little clutches :p

when your bike doesn't weigh more than a fully fueled elephant you don't need dustbin sized pistons, heavy drivetrain components etc etc, just one of the many advantages to a light bike;)

How much do you weigh Mr Wolf?

now you're just getting personal:p

no idea tbh, about 11st but i haven't stood on a pair of scales in ages, i'm far too manly:D - if you're trying to compare both our bike+rider weights you're still much heavier;)

Hmmph damn was going to show you this (http://www.sv650.org/) review of the falco, which used to be there... But basically one of the riders was playing about with the falco and bacing it into the corners supermoto style, said the slipper clutch was great and he had no issue doing it.

i never said a road bike couldn't do it, i just said the adjustments could be different for different intended uses, a good enough rider can back any bike into a corner with a regular clutch

...

[ThEGr33k]

Ha ha wasnt ment to be personal, just wondering.

BTW you do have one Dustbin sized piston :) hehe

[the_lone_wolf]

Ha ha wasnt ment to be personal, just wondering.

BTW you do have one Dustbin sized piston :) hehe
don't remind me, the thing is 100mm across and it flys up and down at my nuts thousands of times every minute:eek:

[yorkie_chris]

The SMR looks more fun than the falco anyway.

[the_lone_wolf]

The SMR looks more fun than the falco anyway.

that's because it is;)

[ThEGr33k]

The SMR looks more fun than the falco anyway.

Whats the point in looking more fun :rolleyes:

I have too much fun on the falco hence the 9500 miles in 6 months... Guess if these little bikes are so good man id hate to know the cost of running for me. :(

[muffles]

Maybe you dont notice Muffles because your engine is smoother with its many small pistons?

Many hands make light work ;)

[yorkie_chris]

Nah no falco-bashing meant there greek. Been looking at the likes of TLS and speed triple, but something like that which would be more fun than terrifying to slide around has lots of appeal. Problem is it'd be useless for trips further afield!

What's it like on NSL roads?

[ThEGr33k]

Nah no falco-bashing meant there greek. Been looking at the likes of TLS and speed triple, but something like that which would be more fun than terrifying to slide around has lots of appeal. Problem is it'd be useless for trips further afield!

What's it like on NSL roads?

Mine on National speed limit roads?

[yorkie_chris]

Nah I'm on about the KTM, I know what yours is like on open roads.

[ThEGr33k]

Nah I'm on about the KTM, I know what yours is like on open roads.

You do? :cool: You should hear it now... :smt040

TBH if you want a bike like the SV but with more go you want to look at TLs, SV1000 (though that aint that similar) Falco, Firestorm Sprint ST or maybe VFR. Unless you want naked...

[yorkie_chris]

Dunno what I want really. I don't like faired bikes with clipons, if I got the TL it'd end up with proper bars on it.

[ThEGr33k]

Dunno what I want really. I don't like faired bikes with clipons, if I got the TL it'd end up with proper bars on it.

Jeez there is a Falco with 15K miles for £2300!!! Do this to it and WOW! :cool:



Or this...

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=87584&stc=1&d=1215812962

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=87585&stc=1&d=1215812977



MUCH nicer than a tuono :twisted:

[yorkie_chris]

Nah. I don't like the tuono either, that and that's over budget.

Have seen daytona 595s for 1200 quid or thereabouts, and I'd end up making money on the naked conversion by selling panels.

[Dangerous Dave]

TBH if you want a bike like the SV but with more go you want to look at TLs, SV1000 (though that aint that similar) Falco, Firestorm...
Nah... you bore the engine out, a little less power and a lot less weight than the above!

[yorkie_chris]

Er... 1200 quid on a 120bhp ish bike... or nearly £4k just in engine internals on the SV. Seems daft to me as I don't have a kind soul to build my engines for me :-P

[the_lone_wolf]

What's it like on NSL roads?

if you really want to it'll pull hard well past the ton, but it's no fun, over 85 or so the front wheel starts to get light and the steering geometry can bring on bar shake at the hint of a bump, plus the wind protection is non-existent. for what's basically a racing engine it's very tough, but holding it flat out in top isn't what it was designed for and you won't do it much good in the long run

having said that you'll have far more fun at 0-80mph than you can on any sportsbike;)

[yorkie_chris]

We should probably have a seperate SM thread ... that sounds so wrong :-P

What's it worth then? Seen a couple of CRF450's and the like for under a grand, thought about road converting a CR500, but not enough engine braking for slidey stupidity.

[the_lone_wolf]

What's it worth then? Seen a couple of CRF450's and the like for under a grand, thought about road converting a CR500, but not enough engine braking for slidey stupidity.
mine owes me about £5k - but there's only a handful of road legal 560SMRs out there and finding one up for sale is pretty rare

There's the usual bunch of Honda/Yamaha 450s that make good motos, KTM also do the 450/525 EXC/SMR which are basically the same engine with smaller/larger bores/strokes than the 560, both have the same frame, swingarm etc etc except the EXC comes with all the road legal kit and 21/18" knobblies whereas the SMR comes with nothing except a numberboard and a spark only electrical system. Aprilia do the SXV450/550 and they're pretty mental performance wise (70bhp+) but fragile and expensive. KTM also do the 625/660/690 SMC which is a nice road going motard and comes road legal.

At the end of the day i looked at most of them and went for the racing four stroke KTM because it's light, powerful and reliable, if i did it again i might be tempted to get a 525EXC and convert it rather than road register a race bike, but it was a learning experience:cool:

you can probably expect to pay between £2500 and £4k for one, depending on age and condition obviously, £2.5k will probably need a bit of TLC, £4k will get you a minter