View Full Version : Fewer or less...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7591905.stm
This isn't difficult... but Tesco feel they've corrected their poor use of English, but haven't exactly gone head over heals to educate people what is the correct use.
Does anyone else wonder why people can't communicate any more?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7591905.stm
This isn't difficult... but Tesco feel they've corrected their poor use of English, but haven't exactly gone head over heals to educate people what is the correct use.
Does anyone else wonder why people can't communicate any more?
Waitrose stores have correct signs.
Jester666
01-09-08, 02:08 PM
Text speak has killed the correct use of English. Reading some of the posts on here I do wonder if English Grammar is still taught in school today.
Most of the badly worded posts could quite easily be corrected simply by using the spell checker.
dizzyblonde
01-09-08, 02:09 PM
pah, so the supermarkets are getting in on educating us too now.
Well this English language student can understand what fewer or less means.
It certainly won't educate the ignorant few that stand with a overflowing trolley, in that particualr queue....because they can't be bothered to lift their heads up to read.
Perhaps if the governent were more inclined to revert back to old fashioned education instead of nannying teenagers into doing pastoral studies like hairdressing and such, the supermarkets wouldn't be stepping in!
oooph rant over
the_lone_wolf
01-09-08, 02:12 PM
Does anyone else wonder why people can't communicate any more?
**grunts**
SoulKiss
01-09-08, 02:15 PM
Best one I saw recently was useing "close" for "clothes".
Even after my recent rant we are still getting "What x" rather than "Which x" threads.
MODS - time to correct threads methinks :)
Jester666
01-09-08, 02:15 PM
pah, so the supermarkets are getting in on educating us too now.
Well this English language student can understand what fewer or less means.
It certainly won't educate the ignorant few that stand with a overflowing trolley, in that particualr queue....because they can't be bothered to lift their heads up to read.
Perhaps if the governent were more inclined to revert back to old fashioned education instead of nannying teenagers into doing pastoral studies like hairdressing and such, the supermarkets wouldn't be stepping in!
oooph rant over
:lol: Sorry Dizzy but it was just too easy!! :lol:
Jester666
01-09-08, 02:16 PM
Best one I saw recently was useing "close" for "clothes".
Even after my recent rant we are still getting "What x" rather than "Which x" threads.
MODS - time to correct threads methinks :)
And another!! But then you are Scottish!! :lol:
dizzyblonde
01-09-08, 02:17 PM
:lol: Sorry Dizzy but it was just too easy!! :lol:
Lol...ya got me;-) the art of typing fast whilst ranting, is not my best ability.:rolleyes:
chris8886
01-09-08, 02:19 PM
Text speak has killed the correct use of English. Reading some of the posts on here I do wonder if English Grammar is still taught in school today.
Most of the badly worded posts could quite easily be corrected simply by using the spell checker.
i didn't even realise there was a spellchecker on here!!
i didn't even realise there was a spellchecker on here!!
IE spell is used, and Firefox has an inbuilt spell checker. However, it's entirely understandable you were unaware of it if just viewing the resulting posts...
Jester666
01-09-08, 02:35 PM
The spellcheck button is the tick with ABC above it. On the right hand side of the reply box. :rolleyes:
chris8886
01-09-08, 02:36 PM
The spellcheck button is the tick with ABC above it. On the right hand side of the reply box. :rolleyes:
ah yes, so it is. never noticed it there before. doesn't mean i'm gonna use it though :p
Jester666
01-09-08, 02:37 PM
It does not correct your lack of capital letters then? :rolleyes::lol:
10 items or fewer, 10 items or less. Does it really matter? They are both easy to understand but tens of thousands of pounds will be spent changing these signs that could be put to much better use.
And spelling / grammar on the forum - why worry about it? Some like to take the time to check their posts and others write things quickly and drop letters / misspell (accidentally or on purpose). I really don't mind so long as I can understand someone's post.
Life's too short.
Cheers,
Matt
SoulKiss
01-09-08, 02:45 PM
10 items or fewer, 10 items or less. Does it really matter? They are both easy to understand but tens of thousands of pounds will be spent changing these signs that could be put to much better use.
And spelling / grammar on the forum - why worry about it? Some like to take the time to check their posts and others write things quickly and drop letters / misspell (accidentally or on purpose). I really don't mind so long as I can understand someone's post.
Life's too short.
Cheers,
Matt
Its this slovenly attitude that causes all the little issues to become big problems.
Slippery Slopes and all that.
Its this slovenly attitude that causes all the little issues to become big problems.
Slippery Slopes and all that.
No, it's people making mountains out of molehills that turns silly little things in to big problems. :takeabow:
Less, or fewer... if you can't tell which one to use, then you're already some way down a slipery slope. It's about simple communication skills, and the correct use of language.
I'll always forgive typos, they're a fact of modern life. But some things are just annoying. My top 5 are:
1. It's and its - there is a difference.
2. They're, there and their - work it out!
3. Excessive notations: .......... and !!!!!!!!! and ????????? for example.
4. an ellipsis (...) is a recognised character. It is not a test of the repeat rate of your keyboard...........................
5. The apostrophe. It's just a little thing, it's not complicated, learn to use it, please.
Oh... and keeping on the theme of motorcycling: break and brake... I hope it's a long time before I have to break my motorcycle, but it brakes every day.
It does not correct your lack of capital letters then? :rolleyes::lol:
You took the words right out of my mouth :smt044
But some posts take so much longer for everyone else to read that the time saved by the person typing. Myt, I have seen used for might :roll:
Less, or fewer... if you can't tell which one to use, then you're already some way down a slipery slope. It's about simple communication skills, and the correct use of language.
Devils advocate mode on :smt077
Language evolves. The way we write now is not the same as it was last century, or the century before that, etc. Look at the language used by Shakespeare. Language / spelling / word use / sentence structure that is considered to be correct now is not the same as it was then.
There will always be people (such as the Plain English Society) who try to hold on to what they believe to be correct at the time; and there will always be new ways of communicating developing. Correct use of grammar is important to some, whilst simply getting a message across quickly is important to others.
You could say that people are developing language and the written word to be more efficient, 'so u cn rite a msg qukly wth 1/2 the letrs'.
The bottom line for me is that whether the sign in Tesco's reads '10 items or less', '10 items or fewer' or 'Up to 10 items', I know I can't get in that queue with my full weekly shop. :mrgreen:
Cheers,
Matt
Yawn, soory anover correct use of Englundish fred!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yawn, soory anover correct use of Englundish fred!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quite ironic seeing as I'm posting in it, but my thoughts exactly! :p
SoulKiss
01-09-08, 03:49 PM
Quite ironic seeing as I'm posting in it, but my thoughts exactly! :p
Maybe its because while its boring to see these threads over and over again, its even more boring and annoying to see the same poor standards of communication over and over.
Tesco would have been equally right to have put " <= 10 Items" on a sign, but who, due to poor education would have got that sign, many people would see that as meaning "go to the checkout on the left".
Communication IS important, if you cannot be bothered to at least try and communicate what you want to say accurately, then why should a reader be accurate in their response?
Spelling and grammar are important to me and whilst I try to get things I correct I may occasionally make mistakes. However, I also accept that some things aren't written correctly but I don't let it worry me. Like I said, life's too short.
If one can accept that it's not as important to some people then one can have less stress in one's life. And that's important IMO. :cool:
As reported by the BBC regarding the Mansion fire & 3 bodies found. The following was posted on the Daughter's social networking site
Friends of hers have been leaving messages on her page.
One friend, Chloe, wrote: "I can't belive that one of the bodys was your mam. RIP Jill Foster. I hope that the other body isnt your dad.
"An I hope they dont find any mor an your just havin a week somewer with your dad or sumink."
Another friend, Danielle, referred to Kirstie's horses - Scrumpy Jack, Breezy and Bramble - which were found dead in the outbuildings of the mansion.
She wrote: "I miss you soo much. My thorts are with you 24/7 and there are some points in the day i just wanna break down and cry.
"Life feels weird without you. Please be okay, otherwise I dunno wat ill doo. RIP Jill and Jack and Breezy and Bramble."
Her friend George wrote: "Plz b ok kirstie. We r all thinkin bowt u."
Another friend called Lucy added: "Forever in our hearts, once there forever in our lives." Kirstie's head teacher at Ellesmere College Brendan Wignall said it would be "inappropriate to comment" at the moment.
Brendan Wignall should be hanging his head in shame. I notice the BBC couldn't be bothered adding all the sic's :roll:
chris8886
01-09-08, 04:40 PM
It does not correct your lack of capital letters then? :rolleyes::lol:
that is just me being lazy. i'm not a great typer and find it annoying looking for the shift key and then the letter i want. that's why i love 'word' etc, that do it for you :rolleyes:
Jester666
01-09-08, 04:43 PM
That do what for you? :rolleyes:
Warthog
02-09-08, 02:02 PM
Urgh, Tesco really do need to get things right you know, as that is probably where 90% of the population do most of their reading sadly.
that is just me being lazy. i'm not a great typer and find it annoying looking for the shift key and then the letter i want. that's why i love 'word' etc, that do it for you :rolleyes:
This is something I may be able to help with, have a quick look to the far left of your keyboard. The shift key is the one with the upward facing arrow. OK now the cool bit is it doesn't actually move whatever other button you use it in conjunction with. So it is no harder than looking for the letter you wanted anyway.:smt040
HTH
Jambo
Luckypants
02-09-08, 02:48 PM
Well I think a lot of the poor grammar and even worse spelling is due to the fact that schools no longer emphasise the use of correct English. It is like not losing marks in an exam for poor spelling and grammar - while you may have the facts correct, being able to articulate these facts is part and parcel of education. How would a scientist be able to explain a complicated new theory without clear language?
Alpinestarhero
02-09-08, 04:34 PM
How would a scientist be able to explain a complicated new theory without clear language?
He'd plot a great big graph and then derive an equaion from it.
Woooo
Well I think a lot of the poor grammar and even worse spelling is due to the fact that schools no longer emphasise the use of correct English. It is like not losing marks in an exam for poor spelling and grammar - while you may have the facts correct, being able to articulate these facts is part and parcel of education. How would a scientist be able to explain a complicated new theory without clear language?
So for example the stuff I posted above that was posted on the girl's facebook (as an example of school kids) Would they receive any marks for writing in that style. I can understand the reason for txt spk but how can you write bodys on the internet & bodies in your exam work :smt102
your thorts please :D
He'd plot a great big graph and then derive an equaion from it.
Woooo
A what? :lol:
Alpinestarhero
02-09-08, 07:00 PM
So for example the stuff I posted above that was posted on the girl's facebook (as an example of school kids) Would they receive any marks for writing in that style. I can understand the reason for txt spk but how can you write bodys on the internet & bodies in your exam work :smt102
your thorts please :D
A what? :lol:
I fink you is correct blud innit, cos if we all goes about writin' tings like we speaks dem, then no-one noes what anyone is on about, innit blud
I do try and keep my writing as clear and concise as possible, so everyone knows what I'm on about. I get a bit lazy when it isn't so important, but certainly if I'm posting advice or something serious, then I'll be as clear as I can.
Matt
SoulKiss
02-09-08, 07:03 PM
I fink you is correct blud innit, cos if we all goes about writin' tings like we speaks dem, then no-one noes what anyone is on about, innit blud
I do try and keep my writing as clear and concise as possible, so everyone knows what I'm on about. I get a bit lazy when it isn't so important, but certainly if I'm posting advice or something serious, then I'll be as clear as I can.
Matt
Word !!
Alpinestarhero
02-09-08, 07:13 PM
Word !!
Scene :cool:
Or is it Seen?
oh dear, my slang vocabulary is terribly crap.
northwind
02-09-08, 10:46 PM
I went on a business writing course at work a few weeks back, and the lecturer was a grammar nazi. This was one of his examples, fewer vs less. I almost made him cry...
"Less is for volume. Fewer is for amount. Let me give an example, if you were asking for some mashed potatoes with lumps in, you could ask for fewer lumps, you could not ask for fewer mashed potatoes. Remember this next time you're in Tesco"
"Ah, but when you're in Tesco you can buy instant mashed potatoes, and they come in little shards like coral- so you can get fewer mashed potatoes"
Well, I laughed.
. I get a bit lazy when it isn't so important,
Matt
wow, That's exactly my point - thanks for making it clearer for me :D I fully agree with getting lazy when it doesn't matter, but how can the kids switch so much that they can accept thorts, but know it's wrong when it does matter :smt102
northwind
02-09-08, 11:04 PM
But seriously... The english language is needlessly overcomplicated, and also contains a huge number of corruptions which have become acceptable. English, like all living languages, changes over time.
Shan't, for instance, is an accepted corruption simply because it's been around for so long, but it's essentially just very old txt spk. In fact any apostrophe'd two word contraction is a corruption in much the same way- it's a case of running words together to make them faster to say and write, sound familiar 2 ne1? When these contractions were first entering common usage they were considered a sign of poor education and lack of manners.
There comes a point once nobody understands a rule, and nobody obeys the rule, that it's no longer an effective rule. Personally, I think fewer and less is one of these situations, language is just a tool used to convey meaning and in this case it does the job perfectly. If we attempt to freeze the language in place, it stops being a tool and becomes a cage, and instead of thinking about the meaning we worry about the presentation of the meaning.
Unfortunately it's one of those matter of degrees situations. Personally I always think that if I don't notice an error, it's not important, and if I do notice an error then it should be corrected. So does everyone else, and that's the problem. Just like anyone faster than you on the road is a maniac and anyone slower is a snail.
Having said that, when I rule the world saying "More unique" will be punishable by death.
lukemillar
03-09-08, 06:36 AM
Having said that, when I rule the world saying "More unique" will be punishable by death.
It's like the hairdresser around the corner from where I work that advertises:
"Specialising in all styles"
:)
I couldn't give a monkeys uncle what the signs say in Tesco & as far as i'm concerned they could remove them completely because the to55ers that are always in front of me obviously never or can't read them because they have at least 15 items in their bloody baskets anyway.
Maybe they should make everyone who shops with a basket remove their shoes & tell them that when they run out of toes to count on to go to the checkout.
SoulKiss
03-09-08, 08:04 AM
I couldn't give a monkeys uncle what the signs say in Tesco & as far as i'm concerned they could remove them completely because the to55ers that are always in front of me obviously never or can't read them because they have at least 15 items in their bloody baskets anyway.
Maybe they should make everyone who shops with a basket remove their shoes & tell them that when they run out of toes to count on to go to the checkout.
We are dealing with the literacy thing now.
Numeracy will come later :)
Besides most of those kinds of people CAN count to 15 on both hands :) - and not neccesarily because they cant count.....
Errm, to go back to the beginning, in Oz, we had a supermarket advertising "cheaper" prices. The retort of course was, "I don't want to buy a price, no matter how cheap". They changed it to lower prices for a while but brought back "cheaper" as the "lower" sounded poncy to the average punter.
But seriously... The english language is needlessly overcomplicated, and also contains a huge number of corruptions which have become acceptable. English, like all living languages, changes over time.
Shan't, for instance, is an accepted corruption simply because it's been around for so long, but it's essentially just very old txt spk. In fact any apostrophe'd two word contraction is a corruption in much the same way- it's a case of running words together to make them faster to say and write, sound familiar 2 ne1? When these contractions were first entering common usage they were considered a sign of poor education and lack of manners.
There comes a point once nobody understands a rule, and nobody obeys the rule, that it's no longer an effective rule. Personally, I think fewer and less is one of these situations, language is just a tool used to convey meaning and in this case it does the job perfectly. If we attempt to freeze the language in place, it stops being a tool and becomes a cage, and instead of thinking about the meaning we worry about the presentation of the meaning.
Unfortunately it's one of those matter of degrees situations. Personally I always think that if I don't notice an error, it's not important, and if I do notice an error then it should be corrected. So does everyone else, and that's the problem. Just like anyone faster than you on the road is a maniac and anyone slower is a snail.
Dis is wot I sed in post 22, but u sed it better, innit.
Having said that, when I rule the world saying "More unique" will be punishable by death.
Me wishes I sed dis bit 2, cuz me lykes it.
:mrgreen:
northwind
04-09-08, 01:35 PM
I haz 1337 wurdz
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