View Full Version : Router / ISP / ADSL Advice
fizzwheel
05-11-08, 03:23 PM
Righto a geek I might be but comms and networking is not my bag...
Our ADSL at home has stopped working, I've raised a call with my ISP and they are blaming the router at my end.
I've done some digging through the router logs and I'm getting "CHAP Authentication Failed" Which I think is my user name and or password being rejected or not authenticating properly.
My router logs look like this :
Sun, 2002-09-08 13:25:19 - Administrator login successful - IP:192.168.0.2
Sun, 2002-09-08 13:25:48 - Initialize LCP.
Sun, 2002-09-08 13:26:04 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Sun, 2002-09-08 13:26:07 - CHAP authentication failed
Sun, 2002-09-08 13:26:07 - LCP down.
Also on the router diagnostics its showing
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e344/fizzwheel/router.jpg
Its a netgear D834G I've hard reset it and entered all my details in again and I've done a firmware upgrade on it as well.
I'm reasonably convinced the problem is with my ISP but they're blaming it on the router at my end.
I've also been talking with a colleague with a similar problem and we live 1/2 mile from each other so we're on the same exchange so I'm wandering if thats co-incidence or a symptom. I've also been told it might be noise on the line ? The ISP are saying they've checked the and its showing no faults.
wyrdness
05-11-08, 03:27 PM
I get this occasionally. I suspect that it's the exchange, but it sounds as if your ISP is fobbing you off. Can you speak to someone there who actually has a clue and isn't just a call centre monkey?
fizzwheel
05-11-08, 03:31 PM
Can you speak to someone there who actually has a clue and isn't just a call centre monkey?
Call centre monkeys who dont understand what I'm talking about and I've lost the will to live with it... I'm about to send our account manager a snotagram and I want to make sure I've got my facts right first :D
wyrdness
05-11-08, 03:37 PM
Call centre monkeys who dont understand what I'm talking about and I've lost the will to live with it... I'm about to send our account manager a snotagram and I want to make sure I've got my facts right first :D
Assuming that you did put your username & password in correctly, then the problem sounds as if it's at their end, not yours.
fizzwheel
05-11-08, 03:39 PM
It was working and then it stopped last tuesday and hasnt come back on since. I hadnt touched the router or made any changes prior to it stopping working.
What happened to the router they supplied, if they did, can't you cross check it with that one?
fizzwheel
05-11-08, 03:42 PM
No can do. Its a corporate contract and we dont get supplied with routers by the ISP.
i take it you work from home and your boss supplies your adsl?
if that's the case have you asked your boss if he has paid your bill lately?
but if the screen shot above is correct then you are connected.... giving this is true then i would be looking at the network card in your computer.... make sure that no one has set the card to static address or if they have they have done it properly.
only other thing is that someone has been playing in your router and changed your username and password... doubble check the u/p.
fizzwheel
05-11-08, 04:11 PM
i take it you work from home and your boss supplies your adsl
if that's the case have you asked your boss if he has paid your bill lately?
yes and the bill has been paid.
but if the screen shot above is correct then you are connected.... giving this is true then i would be looking at the network card in your computer.... make sure that no one has set the card to static address or if they have they have done it properly.
only other thing is that someone has been playing in your router and changed your username and password... doubble check the u/p.
Its running over the wireless adaptor in my laptop. The laptop gets an IP from the router and I can ping the router over the wirelss from my laptop. All is set to dynamically assigned IP's.
I've reset the username and password and have even been provided with another set of credentials from my ISP to try and use and those fail with the same "CHAP Authentication Failed" error message.
As I said above, it was working I went to the loo and came back and it had stopped and nobody has touched the settings.
SuzukiNess
05-11-08, 04:16 PM
I'm no IT expert but i had a similar problem with what the service provider was saying was problem my end and i believed it was theirs... 36 days later (i was ready to commit murder at this point!) i eventually got thru to a human who did not live in India and who could do more than read off a screen to fix the problem.... no problems on the line. no router problem . login details etc etc were correct. It took him two days to eventually find out my line had been crossed with a line that had no broadband and whilst they were checking my line and it was working it just wasnt the right line connecting me...
(if this does not make sense or relevant to the post refer first few words of sentence again :rolleyes:
are yo running zonealarm ... if so it might have updated/defaulted to a loopback address...
the other thing that can happen is that the remote access has been left on in your router and the u/p has been left to default .. this would let people in to mess with the router settings...
other than that if you have updated the firmware in your router then the wireless authentication has gone to pot. and you need to set up your wireless card/router in the laptop to talk to each other again.
fizzwheel
05-11-08, 04:27 PM
are yo running zonealarm ... if so it might have updated/defaulted to a loopback address...
No not running zone alarm
the other thing that can happen is that the remote access has been left on in your router and the u/p has been left to default .. this would let people in to mess with the router settings...
Nope user name and passowrd have been changed from the default settings.
other than that if you have updated the firmware in your router then the wireless authentication has gone to pot. and you need to set up your wireless card/router in the laptop to talk to each other again.
I can ping the routers LAN IP via the wireless connectino from my laptop.
Wireless comms between the laptop and the router work fine. Its the router to the outside world that doesnt work.
You have eliminated the wireless connection on the route with physical cabled connection have you and tested again?
not trying to be cheeky ... but how are you able to post if your internet connection is down?
another thing to try is connecting the laptop with a cat5 cable and see if it works...
fizzwheel
05-11-08, 04:35 PM
You have eliminated the wireless connection on the route with physical cabled connection have you and tested again?
I dont see what doing that woudl solve. Its not the wireless thats not working.
wyrdness
05-11-08, 04:38 PM
another thing to try is connecting the laptop with a cat5 cable and see if it works...
You don't appear to understand the problem. It's the PPP CHAP authentication on the ADSL line that's not working.
fizzwheel
05-11-08, 04:38 PM
not trying to be cheeky ... but how are you able to post if your internet connection is down?
Because I'm in the office and not at home.
another thing to try is connecting the laptop with a cat5 cable and see if it works...
I dont see whats thats going to solve its not the wireless thats not working.
I dont see what doing that woudl solve. Its not the wireless thats not working.
Nope you right... Sorry.
The Challenge Handshake Authentication Protocol (CHAP) verifies the identity of the peer by means of a three-way handshake. These are the general steps performed in CHAP:
After the LCP (Link Control Protocol) phase is complete, and CHAP is negotiated between both devices, the authenticator sends a challenge message to the peer.
The peer responds with a value calculated through a one-way hash function (Message Digest 5 (MD5)).
The authenticator checks the response against its own calculation of the expected hash value. If the values match, the authentication is successful. Otherwise, the connection is terminated.
This authentication method depends on a "secret" known only to the authenticator and the peer. The secret is not sent over the link. Although the authentication is only one-way, you can negotiate CHAP in both directions, with the help of the same secret set for mutual authentication.
This would explain why when you went to the loo it disconnected, as it continues to authenticate. So I would challenge your ISP as it looks like the password or ID has expired, or your ISP is not accepting you ID even if is it valid.
There is rather alot of nice information on the cisco site (http://www.cisco.com/en/US/tech/tk713/tk507/technologies_tech_note09186a00800b4131.shtml) about it.
fizzwheel
05-11-08, 04:41 PM
This would explain why when you went to the loo it disconnected, as it continue to authenticate. So I would challenge your ISP as it looks like the password or ID has expired, or your ISP is not accepting you ID even it is it valid.
Thats what I told my ISP and they dont agree with me. They reckon its my router. I told them I believed the probem was with their end i.e. my account is the problem and they are now ignoring my emails. I escalated it to my account manger who told me the tech guys say theres nothing wrong and now I'm going round in circles.
only because you can ping the ip addy it does not mean that you have an out side world connection.
for the card to talk to the routers outside world it needs authentication... if the wireless router/card settings are not set up properly then it will not let you see the outside world.
If they are blaming the router (which doesnt sound like the problem and I agree with all thats been said) why dont you try a different one just to humour them? Then when you have the same problem you might get a bit further? Borrow one from a friendly colleague or something?
:smt102
Thats what I told my ISP and they dont agree with me. They reckon its my router. I told them I believed the probem was with their end i.e. my account is the problem and they are now ignoring my emails. I escalated it to my account manger who told me the tech guys say theres nothing wrong and now I'm going round in circles.
I would say if they are ignoring you then your company needs to take it up with them, do you know anything about the support contract they have. Would you be able to get them to get a engineer out to you to look at it? After all your account might be fine, but it doesn't mean some guy hasn't been in the exchange and fiddling to get something else to work and bumped you off.
fizzwheel
05-11-08, 04:50 PM
I would say if they are ignoring you then your company needs to take it up with them, do you know anything about the support contract they have. Would you be able to get them to get a engineer out to you to look at it? After all your account might be fine, but it doesn't mean some guy hasn't been in the exchange and fiddling to get something else to work and bumped you off.
I've raised it with my account manager and all she says is that "the techie guys say theres nothing wrong". I have a work colleague how lives 1/2 mile up the road who is on the same exchange who is having the same problem, so I think the problem is with the local exchange, but my ISP wont even entertain the fact theres a fault.
Skip - I would try another router. But they havent even suggested I do so, all I'm getting is the standard helpdesk fob off of "theres no fault"
fizzwheel
05-11-08, 04:53 PM
only because you can ping the ip addy it does not mean that you have an out side world connection.
for the card to talk to the routers outside world it needs authentication... if the wireless router/card settings are not set up properly then it will not let you see the outside world.
I know all of that.
The problem I'm trying to fix is that my router wont talk to my ISP. Not that my laptop wont talk to my router. If my router wont talk to the outside world my laptops not going to either regardless of how its connected to the router.
Skip - I would try another router. But they havent even suggested I do so, all I'm getting is the standard helpdesk fob off of "theres no fault"
You did say this though ;)
Our ADSL at home has stopped working, I've raised a call with my ISP and they are blaming the router at my end.
Other than that I dont know what else you can do - its not a pleasant situation to be in :( Keep on at that account manager is all I can suggest? :smt072
fizzwheel
05-11-08, 05:01 PM
they havent gone through any diagnostics at all. Nope theres no fault its your router and I got that from the Account Manger the techie that was looking at it hasnt even bothered to reply to the emails I sent her. They're just ignoring me which makes me think that there is a problem its just they dont know about it.
I'm pretty convinced its not the router. I've just sent the account manager the logs off my router so see what happens next.
A colleague of mine had a similar fault and it took the 3 months to solve it.
Fizz,
Your problem (and your friend's problem) sound very like mine recently. In my case, the line was sync'ing at random speeds (do you really have a 3Mbit line? How far are you from the exchange?), but never completing CHAP authentication, so whilst the DSL line was up, there was no data throughput.
Do you know if your exchange has been ADSL2/21CN enabled in the past, or if this work is due soon (21CN more likely than ADSL2 these days). Use this site to find out: http://www.samknows.com/broadband/search.php
Anyhow, our problem was that there were bunbled pairs from the pole to the house, which gives RS errors but nothing else (geek talk for peculiar problems). The solution was 2 BT engineers with ladders & wire. ;) If your exchange is being upgrade, or was recently, it may be that the enginners have put bundled pairs on a couple of lines - not that uncommon as it means you can migrate lines without lack of service.
At the end of the day though, take the face plate off your BT socket, plug your router (and phones) into the test socket on the back, and demand that the problem be resolved with your ISP. You'll be read the riot act about 400 times, stating that BT will charge you £160+ sould the fault be your equipment, but it's not that so I wouldn't worry about it.
If it turns out that you do have the same problem as me, give the engineer your friends phone number & he'll probably be able to sort that out at the same time.
MiniMatt
05-11-08, 05:20 PM
Google is my kung fu, and it is strong: http://forum1.netgear.com/showthread.php?t=8087
To my mind the DSL looks to sync up fine it's the PPP part that's failing. Typically incorrect password but as that's been checked and rechecked it could be the ISP account department playing games. The router could be failing to talk CHAP properly - the ISP *may* allow PAP authentication as well - it could be worth setting that instead, this option will probably be on your router web interface someplace near where you set the chap, and it's the same deal hostname + password (typically the password gets ignored though, depending on ISP).
I doubt it's line noise to be honest, if you can find a signal to noise ratio page, on a cisco device it'd be "sh dsl int atm0" but I can't drive netgears :D Basically look for words like attenuation and signal to noise. Upstream and downstream SNR will be different but if downstream SNR is above 10db it should be fine (it'll probably be fine down to 6db to be honest). If it's low then you might need to have the line limited to 2mb or 1mb downstream to improve the SNR.
Other option, there's a BT test account you used to be able to use, that would authenticate at BT (assuming you've got a BT local loop and it hasn't been unbundled) and whilst you won't get access to the internet proper it'll confirm whether DSL and authentication is working or not and possibly allow you to lay the prob firmly at the ISPs door.
fizzwheel
05-11-08, 05:21 PM
Cheers Baph I'll give that a try. Service isnt provided by BT anyway... so I dont have that to worry about :D
Google is my kung fu, and it is strong...
I doubt it's line noise to be honest, if you can find a signal to noise ratio page, on a cisco device it'd be "sh dsl int atm0" but I can't drive netgears :D Basically look for words like attenuation and signal to noise. Upstream and downstream SNR will be different but if downstream SNR is above 10db it should be fine (it'll probably be fine down to 6db to be honest). If it's low then you might need to have the line limited to 2mb or 1mb downstream to improve the SNR.
Your google isn't that strong. :) You can have line issues & still have no noise problems. Also, ADSL2 will happily work down as low as 4dB.
Lowering attenuation (and therefore line speed) is a damn ugly hack to work around line problems. I personally wouldn't settle for that.
Fizz, given your previous post, ignore my PM then, unless the line is BT's (doesn't matter who you pay the bill to, if it uses copper pair & not fibre etc, then it's BTs line). :)
Service isnt provided by BT anyway... so I dont have that to worry about :D
If it's not unbundled then you do - it will cost your provider to raise a ticket with BT if nothing is found to be wrong with the line so they are reticent to do so (in my experience). Surely your provider will be able to see the attempted authentication at their end and get a more verbose message?
Sounds like a fib regarding trying a different router is in order....
MiniMatt
05-11-08, 05:55 PM
Your google isn't that strong. :) You can have line issues & still have no noise problems. Also, ADSL2 will happily work down as low as 4dB.
Lowering attenuation (and therefore line speed) is a damn ugly hack to work around line problems. I personally wouldn't settle for that.
Fizz, given your previous post, ignore my PM then, unless the line is BT's (doesn't matter who you pay the bill to, if it uses copper pair & not fibre etc, then it's BTs line). :)
Fair point :D Nah, your thinking does look better. Although I fear lowering attenuation often is the only recourse, as ugly as it is, because BT tend to turn round and say "we only guarantee voice quality, not data". 6db/4db, meh, you say tomato, I say potato :D
fizzwheel
05-11-08, 06:26 PM
Sounds like a fib regarding trying a different router is in order....
One step ahead of you, tried that already, still they dont want to know...
Well if you have tried another router what they blaming it on then?
Well if you have tried another router what they blaming it on then?
Probably the fault of "You say theres a problem, there's no errors on my screen. Computer says no!"
Sadly lots of ISPs do that. Even when we call them from work to say we have an engineer on site & there's no voltage down the line!
Gene genie
05-11-08, 07:53 PM
ah now, this aint a woodworking thread is it? sorry my mistake.
fizzwheel
05-11-08, 08:18 PM
Probably the fault of "You say theres a problem, there's no errors on my screen. Computer says no!"
Thats exactly what the problem is, I'm just getting a "it must be your router problem" and then they just ignore my repeated attempts to plant the seed in their heads that its not.
I've worked on helpdesks I know when I'm being fobbed off.
I dont mind that they dont know whats broken, its just the bare faced refusual to even admit that they might have a fault at their end.
I dont mind that they dont know whats broken, its just the bare faced refusual to even admit that they might have a fault at their end.
Ah, but therein lies the problem. Most ISPs are nothing more then glorified virtual ISPs.
There may well not be a fault at their end. It may be in the transparent layer between you & them. You just need someone that knows how to use the diagnostic tools that they have to hand.
Whoosh testing should show some pecuilar results, but I had to talk my ISP 'technician' through how to read the XML output of a whoosh test to get them to see what I was talking about.
Ask for a porting code so that you can change provider (even if you can't). See what "Customer Retention" make of it. ;-)
fizzwheel
05-11-08, 08:47 PM
Ask for a porting code so that you can change provider (even if you can't). See what "Customer Retention" make of it. ;-)
Which is what I've done as I need to be able to dial in from home to do my job and I cant. So I've asked for my MAC code so I can change provider.
the account managers response was "even if he changes provider its still not going to work because his router is at fault"
the account managers response was "even if he changes provider its still not going to work because his router is at fault"
Next time you get that response, please use the following:
"You may be right, but chances are I'll move to an ISP with technical staff that know what they're doing, so the problem will be resolved eventually."
BTW, have they run through any config/test steps with you for the router? If not, I'd be following up on that formal complaint method I told you about.
fizzwheel
05-11-08, 08:57 PM
BTW, have they run through any config/test steps with you for the router? If not, I'd be following up on that formal complaint method I told you about.
Nope nothing at all. Havent even asked for router logs or suggested anything at all that I might try to try and fix it.
Just the stock
"we've tested the line there no fault, we can send an engineer to site but if he doesnt find anything wrong you'll get charged for it"
No its OK Baph I shant waste anymore breath on this lot, if they dont want my or my companies business I'll go somewhere that does.
I make a point of following through on complaints like that, but that's probably because I have to deal with this type of incompetence at work.
Strangley, my complaints at work carry a lot more weight. :lol:
fizzwheel
05-11-08, 09:03 PM
I make a point of following through on complaints like that, but that's probably because I have to deal with this type of incompetence at work.
As do I. I just cannot be bothered, they obviously have no idea of what "Customer Service" means and we have alot of corporate ADSL accounts with this company and I'm not the only one who's ADSL doesnt work at the moment and none of us are getting our problems fixed.
I'd complain if I thought it was going to get me anywhere. Sadly I dont think it will so I'll take my business elsewhere...
Who are they? Name and shame. I would have got the engineer out and when they DO find the issue with your line, then it would be in thier face and a nasty letter to thier MD.
wyrdness
06-11-08, 09:51 AM
Who are they? Name and shame. I would have got the engineer out and when they DO find the issue with your line, then it would be in thier face and a nasty letter to thier MD.
+1 I'd have got them to send an engineer out, being pretty confident that the problem is at the exchange. Then sent a nasty letter and then switched provider to someone with a clue.
fizzwheel
06-11-08, 10:00 AM
I will name and shame once I've got my ADSL transfered over.
Its not a highstreet ISP its a corporate one so hopefully none of you lot will have come across the bunch of muppetts..
I have not had time to read all the posts, so I appologise if this has already been said...
I had an identical experience with the same router and same ISP (your with Tiscali, right?).
Anyway If this is correct, check your username and password to see if they have any capital letters in them, if they do then replace them with none capital letters and reset the router. If this fixes the problem let me know and I will explain some more.
fizzwheel
06-11-08, 10:38 AM
I had an identical experience with the same router and same ISP (your with Tiscali, right?).
Nope not with Tiscali.
I've tried two completely different sets of login credentials, supplied by the ISP and neither work.
timwilky
06-11-08, 12:36 PM
I have to admit I was defeated by my step mothers ADSL connection.
I had typed the exactly as she read them from her note she made when she signed up. Nothing worked. She got onto BT who confirmed her credentials. In desperation I got them to talk to me.
Her problem was every time she read the credentials out for me to type. she said the letter o as in "Oh" and not the number 0 as in "Zero".
Back to your thread. Does you router have any enhanced diags to enable you debug the CHAP dialogue. I know in the past I have fought chap on ISDN lines with ACC routers etc and the enhanced diags enabled me to see the real cause was a radius server fault
Back to your thread. Does you router have any enhanced diags to enable you debug the CHAP dialogue. I know in the past I have fought chap on ISDN lines with ACC routers etc and the enhanced diags enabled me to see the real cause was a radius server fault
+1 on that. I think the router model number is higher up in the thread, I'll have a dig around when I've got more time.
It was the "xdsl info expand=enabled" command on mine that showed the fault to me. :)
fizzwheel
06-11-08, 02:57 PM
its a Netgear D834GV3
I dont think it has the advanced diagnostics on it though...
fizzwheel
07-11-08, 12:51 PM
I sent a rather terse email to the account manager yesterday, with a copy of the router logs and screen shot as per my first post on this thread.
I've had a mail back saying that they've done testing and reset my password. I put the details in still didnt work. I've factory reset my router and my ADSL is back on line now.
I've factory reset my router and my ADSL is back on line now.
Ah, the old "When in doubt, reboot..."
Unlikely that anything has changed really, and the problem may well reappear. But at least the connection works whilst you're awaiting the MAC code. :)
Just as an aside, one of the 3rd line support engineers got a right rollocking not long ago, his suggested fix for DB errors was "reboot the box 7 times, that'll fix it" :lol:
Just as an aside, one of the 3rd line support engineers got a right rollocking not long ago, his suggested fix for DB errors was "reboot the box 7 times, that'll fix it" :lol:
Surely 8 times would be a more permanent fix? :confused:
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