Credit Crunch - Heating the home

[xXBADGERXx]

With the Credit Crunch making us all very aware of the cost of living I have been pondering the idea of getting rid of the gas fire . I am on the card system and have had the heating on for tiny amounts and it is gobbling it`s way through the money . I have even resorted to switching the boiler off when I am not needing hot water . My home has no real heating as such apart from a gas heater in the hallway and a 3 bar gas fire in the living room . The hallway heater keeps my home toasty and warm . I am giving serious thought to ripping out the Gas fire in March and installing a wood burner in there . Has anyone done this recently ?

I have seen that back boilers can be fitted to these as well and can even run central heating off them and hot water from a tank like the good/bad old days . Will one of these on it`s own be able to keep a 3 bedroomed ex local authority home warm ?

[yorkie_chris]

Depends on your current boiler set up.

For us to put stove in with a back boiler, it would have cost a lot as we would have had to install pressurised header tank. Payback time would have been many years.

We have wood burning stove, heat is free except for the odd liter of petrol for the chainsaw!

Basically, ask a plumber what you would need as there's more to it than just plumbing it straight in.

[dizzyblonde]

dunno about most of it, but I have an ex council house too. Red brick and was freezing when I bought it 8 yr ago without the central heating. I don't have it heated in the living room or kitchen(which I regret) theres limited room for rads in them. I was lucky enough to get one of these schemes that does cavity wall insulation and loft insulation for free! IMO its worth getting it looked at. Upstairs is so toasty warm because theres a 10 ft high carpet of loft insulation above it, downstairs ain't too bad without the rads, its very rare I need the gas fire on either. Its certainly less draughty with the cavity wall stuff.

[xXBADGERXx]

My house is Double Glazed , Loft insulated so much I dont even know where the rafters are and the cavity`s are insulated too . I have a gas boiler on my wall that heats on demand .

[yorkie_chris]

Stoves are excellent, if you get a decent one you can close draft off and it'll burn overnight to give a useful burst of heat in the morning.

[xXBADGERXx]

Well I get a big fat bonus in March and the plan is to cap off the Gas fire , remove it and the Dodgy 80`s fireplace behind it and see what I have got . I was thinking of getting one that would slot into my chimney ideally so all I had on show would be a glass panel and a nice fire to look at . I have read a little bit about them but you can`t beat some good old fashioned advice from the SVorganisms can ya :D

YC , I have read about some of these ones that can keep wood smouldering all day or night and then burn when required , that is correct yes ?

[yorkie_chris]

I could build you one like that, but it wouldn't be pretty :-P

Why you want just a panel? Get one that has all its surfaces in the room.

[xXBADGERXx]

Well I don`t live in a farmhouse do I :D so was thinking I would have a hidden one , only have a small living room and don`t want it jutting out into the middle of the room

[Luckypants]

Basically, ask a plumber what you would need as there's more to it than just plumbing it straight in.

Errr no, basically that's all that is required! Pressurised header tank means a fully pressurised system, why do you need that? This is a specialised solution and most woodburner solutions are defo not specialised! :D

Woodburners are low tech. Getting one with a boiler fitment is no problem. Getting an inset fire with boiler is no problem. Plumbing in to the CH/DHW system is (generally) no problem.

Badger I have a multi-fuel burner (wood or coal/peat) that runs my 4 bed house heating and hot water no problem. It is linked to a normal vented CH system with indirect DHW cylinder. You are most welcome to take a gander at the set up, feel the heat etc.

Final word about burning wood overnight with dampers closed. The wood needs to be VERY dry. Smouldering green (wet) wood will produce a lot of tar / creosote which will condense on your chimney lining and seep into the brick work joints. Eventually the tar build up will ignite when you have a good fire going, leading to a serious chimney fire that will burn into the mortar joints and cause structural damage to your house. Modern chimney liners make this less of a problem, but beware of what you are burning at low temps.

[yorkie_chris]

Mine's combi boiler, info was got from the stepdad talking to a plumber on a site somewhere

[Luckypants]

Mine's combi boiler, info was got from the stepdad talking to a plumber on a site somewhere

Explains need for pressurising, if you want to link combi and fire into same system.

[yorkie_chris]

Exactly, and apparently the back boilers use a bit of water. Though why they can't make a boiler without porous welds I don't know...

[missyburd]

I have even resorted to switching the boiler off when I am not needing hot water .


Just layer up man! Nice hot water bottle and a few thick jumpers, you'll be reyt :D

[Luckypants]

Exactly, and apparently the back boilers use a bit of water. Though why they can't make a boiler without porous welds I don't know...

Well mine don't appear to. I mean where would it go?

[yorkie_chris]

This is secondhand from some plumber I don't know.

I presume he meant the welds are slightly porous, which considering atmosphere inside stove wouldn't suprise me. This was the reason given for needing basically an automatic filling loop on the boiler. Apparently £1500 worth of parts (for a pressure switch and a solenoid valve... yeaahhh)

[Bibio]

another thing you can burn is newspaper. we used to have a coal fire in burntisland so we invested in one of those paper brick making things, but we used to add coal bits and wood chippings as well, because the paper bricks dont burn that good. its amazing how much newspaper you can get if you ask your neighbours. another great thing about open/real fires are that you can burn all your food waste so reducing the load on your rubbish bin. one more thing is to find out if you are in a smokless zone or not.. if you are you will have to use smokless fuel/coal.

ooohh 1 more thing... have you thought about an oil burner. as i think you get a discount on the oil as its for heating, i think its red deisel btw.

[yorkie_chris]

Nah don't worry about the smokeless bit, just burn smokeless during day. We've got away with burning anything for 5 years so they're not too hot on it...

[Luckypants]

ooohh 1 more thing... have you thought about an oil burner. as i think you get a discount on the oil as its for heating, i think its red deisel btw.

Heating oil gets no discount, just is not taxed to buggery like road fuel. Heating oil is about 45p/l inc VAT at 5%. It is not like red diesel, it is kerosene 28C, so more akin to jet fuel. I use oil for CH/DHW along with woodburner. Oil burning stoves are pretty rubbish, plus you have to make investment in oil storage / pipework for the oil.

[yorkie_chris]

Anyone got any idea what efficiency figures are like for oil boilers compared to gas?

[Luckypants]

for an oil boiler? About 50-60% when not well, 70-80% when well serviced and 90% plus when a condensing boiler fitted and running in condensing mode. Broadly similar efficiency to gas. However oil boilers tend to be more expensive to buy/install than gas and so would need to be factored into the cost comparisons.

Sorry for hijacking your thread badger!

[Bibio]

my mistake i ment to say paraffin.

all i know is it bloody stinks the house out... used to know a farmer who had one and he was a right tight arsed git...

[yorkie_chris]

for an oil boiler? About 50-60% when not well, 70-80% when well serviced and 90% plus when a condensing boiler fitted and running in condensing mode. Broadly similar efficiency to gas. However oil boilers tend to be more expensive to buy/install than gas and so would need to be factored into the cost comparisons.

Sorry for hijacking your thread badger!

So it comes down to a question of how much cheaper oil is per KJ, and how much the boiler and associated gubbins cost...


Bibio, what was the paper brick thing like? Very labour intensive or easy enough?

[Bibio]

Bibio, what was the paper brick thing like? Very labour intensive or easy enough?

a pain in the butt.... but it was worth it.. theoretically free fire bricks..

if you spend the effort making the bricks it can save a lot of money. there no good on there own they are ment as a supplement.

another good way of free fuel for your fire is get friendly with a joiner.. one of my mates had a problem getting rid of all the bits of excess wood after jobs. till i mentioned that i would have it... it cost him money to get rid of it at the local tip. i got it for free as long as i picked it up..

one bit of advise with wood from joiners ... get a cheep electric chop off saw/mitre saw it saves a lot of blisters.

[yorkie_chris]

Got a chainsaw, big axe and a chop saw. Oh and a big gorilla bar and hammer for pallets (also free). Lazy tw4t me.

[Bibio]

Got a chainsaw, big axe and a chop saw. Oh and a big gorilla bar and hammer for pallets (also free). you got the tools then :cheers:

Lazy tw4t me. paper bricks aint for you then :D



pallets are gooood ... but they are worth to much money up here now..

[Luckypants]

wood from joiners / pallets is good for wood burners cos it's generally seasoned for stability, which makes it dry and ideal for burning :D

[skeetly]

I'm connecting up an old much wenlock we rescued from a job years ago. Cant believe the price natural gas. Mine has doubled from this time last year :(
The idea is to stoke up the stove (which is in an old inglenook thing in the middle of the house) and just keep it burning so the central heating has a house already somewhat heated up when its programme kicks in.
Planning on using our own timber offcuts (builders see) and coal.
Word of warning about builders offcuts, tanalised timber and mdf is treated with a solution of nasties; you dont want to be breathing in any steam coming off it or getting into contact with the ashes. Steam coming off mdf may well have formaldehide, tanalised has arsenic. The ash from tanalised can be loaded with arsenic, chromium and copper suplphate. Google is your friend here, tanalised also known as cca. Unscrupulous bilders may well enjoy giving cca and mdf away as you supposed to get a special skip for it generally.
Pallets will be fine though :)

[timwilky]

Well I get a big fat bonus in March and the plan is to cap off the Gas fire , remove it and the Dodgy 80`s fireplace behind it and see what I have got . I was thinking of getting one that would slot into my chimney ideally so all I had on show would be a glass panel and a nice fire to look at . I have read a little bit about them but you can`t beat some good old fashioned advice from the SVorganisms can ya :D

YC , I have read about some of these ones that can keep wood smouldering all day or night and then burn when required , that is correct yes ?

The wife has spent my new bike money on such a fire, very nice it looks too.

Ours is a Gazco one and pumps out about 4KW and is supposed to be around 78% efficient as we just use the existing chimney. Better efficiency is available with a balanced flue. benefits also in that it has given use an extra two foot of room depth where the old hearth was

We have just had the cavity walls insulated, I am still sceptical as to whether we will noticably see any benifit. I was concerned about the blocking off of the air bricks. But my gas installer says the new fire does not need an air vent into the room.

However, I still reckon we could improve heating in my house if I could only get the wife/kids to shut bloody doors behind themselves and stop heating empty rooms.

At present gas fire is on full in the lounge, no one in and windows open in the bedrooms to "air" and every door open. guess where all that heat is going.

[Bluepete]

Newspaper fire brick maker (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Briquette-Recycling-Newspaper-eko-mania-E-M1001/dp/B000OOCMB2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=kitchen&qid=1226311604&sr=8-1)

We used to use one of these back in the early 80's on my parents wood burning stove. It takes ages for them to dry out, best stockpiling them over summer (if we ever get one again!) Takes a bit of effort, but what the hell!

[Luckypants]

Word of warning about builders offcuts, tanalised timber and mdf is treated with a solution of nasties; you dont want to be breathing in any steam coming off it or getting into contact with the ashes. Steam coming off mdf may well have formaldehide, tanalised has arsenic. The ash from tanalised can be loaded with arsenic, chromium and copper suplphate. Google is your friend here, tanalised also known as cca. Unscrupulous bilders may well enjoy giving cca and mdf away as you supposed to get a special skip for it generally.
Pallets will be fine though :)

Yea, I won't burn MDF but happy to burn tanalised timber as a wood burner is fully enclosed, so the nasties go out up the chimney. TBH most wood I get from joiners is internal use softwood and so is fine for use. Any tanalised wood tends to be old fence posts.

[Luckypants]

Ours is a Gazco one and pumps out about 4KW and is supposed to be around 78% efficient as we just use the existing chimney. Better efficiency is available with a balanced flue. benefits also in that it has given use an extra two foot of room depth where the old hearth was

Don't these run on GAS, not WOOD Tim? OP was asking about fitting a wood burner to replace a gas fire.

A wood burner will require air bricks or a separate air supply from the outside. (dependant on size)

[skeetly]

I'm not sure. I have a lot of this stuff I could burn.
We (as a business) are specifically warned by the h&s not to.
The air pollution and disposal of the ash is a greater hazard than the wood apparently.
I've had this information for a few years and remember doing a bit of googling at the time and finding this:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0CYP/is_6_109/ai_77276672/pg_1?tag=artBody;col1

The specific scary bit being:

'A 12-foot length of 2-by-6 lumber treated with CCA contains about an ounce of arsenic, most of which, when burned, is concentrated in the ash. A typical power pole contains about 40 pounds of arsenic.'

Its been banned in Europe for a few years for things like pub tables, kids playgrounds etc

[skeetly]

A wood burner will require air bricks or a separate air supply from the outside. (dependant on size)

5kw and over needs yer airbrick

[skeetly]

I have seen that back boilers can be fitted to these as well and can even run central heating off them and hot water from a tank like the good/bad old days . Will one of these on it`s own be able to keep a 3 bedroomed ex local authority home warm ?

It'll heat the water and the house when you are running the fire :)
It might not be cheaper unless you have access to cheap fuel for it.
To keep the water and rads hot will need a fair bit of fuel. Its all about efficiency see :) The ones enclosed in the wall like you mention are better for back boilers as the heat doesnt radiate into the room off the cast iron.

If you haven't got good insulation it would be cheaper to upgrade that first. We used to have heat loss calculating software that had draughts etc as 40% of possible heat loss ;)

So, cure the draughts first then put more insulation in and then see what happens to youre fuel bills :)

How things change, when I was a young 'un we used to love ripping out back boilers (from open fires) because they were nice heavy copper lumps and good for a bit of cash in the scrappy :)

[Luckypants]

I hear what you are saying about efficiency. A good woodburner / multifuel will compare well with other forms of heating for efficiency as long as the fire / boiler is not over specified so it runs at relatively low output, it needs to be burning well to be 'efficient' and so needs to be sized correctly. Many specific boiler model wood burners put most of the output into the heating system. for instance mine puts out 2.5Kw to the room and 7.5Kw to the heating.

The amount of wood needed to heat a house is quite substantial and needs a lot of refueling. Coal is better for long heating periods, as it has more energy in it. I use coal for when I'm in all day and wood for those 2 hour fires in spring / autumn to take the chill off the house.

If the woodburner/boiler is linked to a conventionally fired heating system, then the system timer can take care of periods when you are out. Mine is only set to come on in the mornings.

[skeetly]

Coal is better for long heating periods, as it has more energy in it. I use coal for when I'm in all day and wood for those 2 hour fires in spring / autumn to take the chill off the house.

If the woodburner/boiler is lined to a conventionally fired heating system, then the system timer can take care of periods when you are out. Mine only set to come on in the mornings.

I'd anticipated having to buy coal, quite looking forward to that reddy glow :)

I must admit I cant wait to see how it will work here. I have a fairly fresh boiler thats a bit clever and tries to 'preheat' the house if its really cold rather than letting the house cool down and then heat it right up again.
I let it work like this and we ended up using the same amount of gas despite having a newer more efficient boiler. House wasnt really any warmer though.

So now the gas prices have gone up I'm back to square one.
So I thougth if we had a log burner idleing away all the time it would help keep the chill off, get rid of all our timber offcuts (untreated) and be quite nice to look at :)

I also suffer with family members who wont close doors, air the house when the heating is on, dry clothes draped on radiators (therefore killing their efficiency) and so on................