i cried last night

[Dappa D]

as mr newsreader went through the details of baby p's injuries, with my son sat on my lap, i sobbed, ive not cried for a long time...

http://www.itv.com/News/Articles/Inquiry-into-babys-death-urged-647659718.html

dont want to bring the org down, it just struck a chord, RIP Baby P xxx

[lily]

I saw that on Breakfast this morning before i left the house, has been one of the only times i have had to turn over the TV channel in the morning as the report was making my feel sick.

[_drummer_]

that's really really sad :(

[Dangerous Dave]

Poor little fella, very sad and shocking. I personally think the parents/guardians should be put through the same trauma, and maybe a little for the social services which failed the poor fella several times.

RIP little'n

[Viney]

You know what, i know that social services have a hard job, but really, sometimes it makes my blood boil with stuff like this. 60 visits ffs!! there shoudl be a limit of 2 maximum, any more and the kid is taken away full stop. Some people should not be allowed to breed. As for the low life scum, and thats whey to good, he should be tortured to death over a 5 year period, and agin, thats to good for them.

Poor kid, poor poor kid.

[shonadoll]

I agree. How in gods name, are social services doing their job if they don't realise a baby is being starved and beaten, with a broken spine. There's too much pc-ness going on - people can get away with treating their kids like this in the year 2008, it's beyond belief.

Those social workers should lose their jobs too.

[cuffy]

It's ****ing scum like that which deserve to be tortured then hung.

Some people just aren't fit to be parents, they should be vetted, made to sit exams, cross checked by the ol' bill and psycho-analysed.
If they fail on any of the above then castrate/steralise them.
Radical but hey, it'll clean up the future. :D

[Mogs]

Once in gaol, these people will be protected on a separate wing for their safety, when they are let out, early for sure, they will get a new identity. Long drop, short rope is what they deserve.

[Miss Alpinestarhero]

I agree. How in gods name, are social services doing their job if they don't realise a baby is being starved and beaten, with a broken spine. There's too much pc-ness going on - people can get away with treating their kids like this in the year 2008, it's beyond belief.

Those social workers should lose their jobs too.

Exactly. Too much pen pushing and fear of infringing peoples human rights..its stupid..! If people suspect abuse then they should act on it right away, not dither about. This reminds me of a similar case where a young girl died as a result of extreme abuse and neglect. I forget her name - it was a black girl...had quite a heavy presence in the news.

at least the poor child isn't suffering anymore :(

Maria

[Dappa D]

Exactly. Too much pen pushing and fear of infringing peoples human rights..its stupid..! If people suspect abuse then they should act on it right away, not dither about. This reminds me of a similar case where a young girl died as a result of extreme abuse and neglect. I forget her name - it was a black girl...had quite a heavy presence in the news.

at least the poor child isn't suffering anymore :(

Maria

its the same council/ social services..i forget the name too...cliumbe or something like that...im pretty sure on the news it said it was the same area

[Rai86]

The scary thing is that things like this, and worse are going on everyday and nobody knows about it. The police are too tied up with the red tape that the government are forcing them to stick to, so many of them cant do the jobs they signed up for...mainly beating the crap out of people who do these sick acts! I am certainly not pro violence but in some cases there is little else that can be done.

Lets hope, if nothing else this incident serves as wake up call to the government and services.

:-(

[Ed]

It's horrific. There were clear failings.

However, the job of a social worker is difficult and if we're not careful we will make it impossible. There's always a fine balance, here yes there are serious questions to be answered. But generally SWs try to keep families together. Look what happened at Orkney when social services went the other way. They're damned if they do and damned if they don't. Not an easy job and as stated the issues aren't always so clear cut.

If we victimise and stigmatise SWs, then nobody will want to do the job. Personally I think they do a terrifc role. Yes they make mistakes - as inthis case, serious ones - but overall they do a good job and I feel sad by the torrent of criticism.

[ArtyLady]

I dont get the lack of action from Social Services in this case - this was going on under their noses, how on earth could they not see what was happening? :mad: RIP that poor little soul, I cried too, my grandson is a similar age.

Then on the flip side of the coin there was the family that had 3 kids (IIRC) taken away because one of them had brittle bone disease - and they jumped very quickly to the conclusion that the mother had caused the injuries - she kept telling them there was a history of it in the family - by the time they had been cleared their kids had been adopted and it couldn't be reversed.

When are these professionals who get paid a lot of tax payers money going to get it right? :confused:

[Luckypants]

I forget her name - it was a black girl...had quite a heavy presence in the news.

Sorry Maria, not having a go at you, but using this as an example.

This is part of the problem, as a society we forget all too quickly the lessons from previous cases, forget the names, the faces and suffering of the poor children subjected to this level of cruelty.

It is all very well us expressing our disgust on this forum, at work, down the pub but what good does it do? In a week or two this case will be out of the news and 'forgotten'. We should write to the head of social services concerned, our MPs, this 'Minister for Children' (FFS!), the Home Secretary, the newspapers etc etc. We cannot DO anything about it ourselves except be vigilant, but we can make sure that the people who CAN DO something about it know that WE expect them to do something about it.

I'm sure that those in power know this, but their think tank / focus group led policy making process does not agree. This is because these processes are dominated by the PC brigade who in all honesty are nice people who live in nice places and do not have to meet this horror on a personal level (I may be wrong, but I do believe this). Therefore, lets inundate them with communications from regular, normal folks who expect people who perpetrate such acts to be caught, stopped and punished severely.

So do something and not forget this time. [-o<

[neillfergie]

Its a tragic story, and as is so often the case, so preventable with hindsight. Its worth remembering though that these sick individuals have been found guilty and are being granted anonymity so i guess they may have more children? . . a scary thought.

For those who think more stringent guidelines are in order though see if you can guess which famous person said this . . . .

"How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think."

Anyone???

[Dappa D]

It's horrific. There were clear failings.

However, the job of a social worker is difficult and if we're not careful we will make it impossible. There's always a fine balance, here yes there are serious questions to be answered. But generally SWs try to keep families together. Look what happened at Orkney when social services went the other way. They're damned if they do and damned if they don't. Not an easy job and as stated the issues aren't always so clear cut.

If we victimise and stigmatise SWs, then nobody will want to do the job. Personally I think they do a terrifc role. Yes they make mistakes - as inthis case, serious ones - but overall they do a good job and I feel sad by the torrent of criticism.

agreed

[ArtyLady]

But if they had made 60 visits (I think it was?) and the mother had been arrested twice how on earth could they miss what was going on?

[Luckypants]

"How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think."

Adolf Hitler.

This is why we need to let those in power that we DO think.

[missyburd]

Heard about this on the radio this morning, shocked me then. Similar case to that one that was mentioned not so long ago about the baby with a broken spine, wtf possesses these people. Obviously some high degree of evil but so totally inhuman its unimaginable. It goes completely against nature and as said in the other thread, why should these people not have to suffer the same fate as the one inflicted upon their victims.

If the scum walk free in the next 5 years then my thoughts that this country is just becoming a laughing stock will be confirmed. I'm thinking we'd do a far better job governing it ourselves. These type of cases just keep on coming out, and those are just the ones revealed by the press, there are no doubt 1000s of cases going on that everyone is unaware of, not exactly a problem if the social workers walk about with their eyes closed like the ones mentioned is this case clearly effin' do. :(

RIP little lad, you're misery is over.

[DanAbnormal]

That's the sadest thing I've ever read. I would give anything for 10 minutes with those responsible but more to bring that poor child back and give it a good loving home and family. So very sad.

[Rai86]

Its a tragic story, and as is so often the case, so preventable with hindsight. Its worth remembering though that these sick individuals have been found guilty and are being granted anonymity so i guess they may have more children? . . a scary thought.

For those who think more stringent guidelines are in order though see if you can guess which famous person said this . . . .

"How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think."

Anyone???

Hitler

Scary how true that is in our society. Like it has been said, we could sit here at our PC's complaining until the cows come home, but nothing will change because nothing is aimed in the right direction

[Dappa D]

But if they had made 60 visits (I think it was?) and the mother had been arrested twice how on earth could they miss what was going on?

yes this would go down as a mahoosive error....very strange....also the baby was taken to the doctors (by the childminder - the woman who kept informing sw's about the parents) 2 days before he died

they think when the child was taken to the docs he already had a broken spine, but the doctor didnt examine the child because the child was irritable...wtf?..im irritable now with a broken elbow and my mrs waiting on me hand and foot...how is a baby who is unable to communicate his pain properly gonna feel when its being picked up..put in a car seat? pram? etc....with a broken spine.....bloody irritable id say

there was a mass of errors in this case, i cant think about it too much...i can feel my blood boiling....on the whole docs and social services do a good job.

[shonadoll]

Exactly. Too much pen pushing and fear of infringing peoples human rights..its stupid..! If people suspect abuse then they should act on it right away, not dither about. This reminds me of a similar case where a young girl died as a result of extreme abuse and neglect. I forget her name - it was a black girl...had quite a heavy presence in the news.

at least the poor child isn't suffering anymore :(

Maria

It was Veronica Climbie I think.

[madness]

Social services! We here about their failure to act soon enough all the time.

I work with a guy who'se fighting a court case to get his son away from his alcoholic, drug dealing, abusive ex.

And the social services won't do a thing despite him supplying lots of evidence.

Either they are chronically overworked or the just don't give a s**t

[Dappa D]

It was Veronica Climbie I think.

thats the one, there is a trust/charity in her name to attempt to stop this sort of thing

[missyburd]

on the whole docs and social services do a good job.
+1 that has to be remembered here. Always easy to tar everyone with the same brush.

Any social workers on here, please don't get offended (much) by comments made (unless they're really out of order in which case, stick as many harmful smileys up as possible, here are a few examples :smt071:smt070:smt068:smt067:smt097:smt065 :smt021 :smt062)

;)

[Dappa D]

Social services! We here about their failure to act soon enough all the time.

I work with a guy who'se fighting a court case to get his son away from his alcoholic, drug dealing, abusive ex.

And the social services won't do a thing despite him supplying lots of evidence.

Either they are chronically overworked or the just don't give a s**t

personally i think they must care to go into that line of work in the first place...

when i was five socail services helped put me, my brother and my mum into a womens refuge, safe house, whatever u wanna call it, thats the only dealings ive had with them, and they done a good job, im pretty sure had they not have i would not have a mother right now. try not to tar them all with the same brush.

[yorkie_chris]

Poor little fella, very sad and shocking. I personally think the parents/guardians should be put through the same trauma, and maybe a little for the social services which failed the poor fella several times.

RIP little'n

+1

#waits for minimatt to turn up to tell us why we shouldn't spark blowtorch up#

[neillfergie]

You're both correct it was Hitler. The point though is a simple one, if we shake our heads in disgust nothing will ever change as we are becoming more and more apathetic with each passing year.

The government will trundle on unless we actually make it known that things need to change in our society. We are spiralling downwards into chaos in the UK and this is driving some people to move towards a more extreme viewpoint on how to deal with it.

After yesterday reminding us of the horrors of the first and second world wars (and other ones since) where millions died to secure our freedom it sad to see how some people decide to use their freedom, however, we must never forget that its impossible to legislate to stop abuse, it will come from education and opportunity.

Branding people as scumbags and marginalizing them will only make things worse in this country. We have leaned from similar cases in history.


Ps. im sorry if im derailing this thread slightly but its important that we direct our frustrations in the correct ways to make any difference.

[Luckypants]

It was Veronica Climbie I think.

thats the one, there is a trust/charity in her name to attempt to stop this sort of thing

Victoria Climbie if that is who was meant. See how easily we forget?

[Dangerous Dave]

It's ****ing scum like that which deserve to be tortured then hung.
I offer my services.....

[Luckypants]

You're both correct it was Hitler. The point though is a simple one, if we shake our heads in disgust nothing will ever change as we are becoming more and more apathetic with each passing year.

The government will trundle on unless we actually make it known that things need to change in our society. We are spiralling downwards into chaos in the UK and this is driving some people to move towards a more extreme viewpoint on how to deal with it.

After yesterday reminding us of the horrors of the first and second world wars (and other ones since) where millions died to secure our freedom it sad to see how some people decide to use their freedom, however, we must never forget that its impossible to legislate to stop abuse, it will come from education and opportunity.

Branding people as scumbags and marginalizing them will only make things worse in this country. We have leaned from similar cases in history.


Ps. im sorry if im derailing this thread slightly but its important that we direct our frustrations in the correct ways to make any difference.

I agree that we need to take action to make sure those in government / power realise we 'the people' do care and do think. Hence my post urging people to write to those in power.

However, branding these child torturers as scumbags and margilising them is the very least they deserve. Long drop, short rope gets my vote for this type of crime. (I also like YC's blow-torch idea, but then we stoop to their level)

[krhall]

it makes me f*cking sick that someone/anyone can do anything like this to a child - kill the B&stards in return...............

[timwilky]

I can only echo the sentiments of every one else here. It is a tragedy that this happened. There have obviously been failing by a number of different organisations and there will have to be yet another point & blame inquiry.

Everyone is quick to point the finger. It should have never happened. But it did.

We hear the horror that it was not prevented despite 60 visits. But we do not know the substance of the visits. We do not know what support/assistance the parents were offered. We do not know what plans social services et al had in place. We do not know what was required to trigger a visit, to escalate into care orders etc.

Of course there will be wringing of hands, changes to policy and some poor scapegoat being disciplined. I for one would hope that things do change, that social services become an organisation that puts the vulnerable first and gives up protecting their own ****. That will only ever happen when we stop blaming and start learning.

[yorkie_chris]

Not even in return, revenge is fairly pointless. It's just cheapest way.

[yorkie_chris]

That will only ever happen when we stop blaming and start learning.

Come on Tim be reasonable... How many no-win no-fee briefs would that attitude put out of work...

[missyburd]

Apparently social workers involved have been given written warnings but probably won't lose their jobs. There might be a public enquiry though.

[yorkie_chris]

Otherwise known as frantically-looking-for-a-scapegoat

[Ceri JC]

I sort of agree with Tim. I have a friend who works in social services, and from what I can ascertain, things have to get horrific before they can take the kids away and even heavy suggestions that it's going to get horrific are not enough. I'd like to see more power granted to the social services in this respect and then once they had these powers, there would be vastly more culpability for failing to protect people in this type of situation.

[neillfergie]

I agree that we need to take action to make sure those in government / power realise we 'the people' do care and do think. Hence my post urging people to write to those in power.

However, branding these child torturers as scumbags and margilising them is the very least they deserve. Long drop, short rope gets my vote for this type of crime. (I also like YC's blow-torch idea, but then we stoop to their level)

Violence can't solve violence, I wish it was that simple.

Apathy can's solve it either though . . . .

wish the answer was simpler but it always comes back to the upbringing of those involved and more often than not the role models they had or have.

they have outlawed smacking kids these days but unless you are supernanny its difficult to discipline some kids without. I was quite unruly as a boy and was always pushing the boundary to see what i could get away with. Smacking to me meant i had overstepped it. Simple. Diddn't happen often but i learned.

Im proud to say i have personally never resorted to physical violence in any situation so it didn't make me a violent person.

Some children though have terrible upbringings and this moulds them into terrible adults and parents. This is the root cause, This is what needs adressed. Its too late to punish them after the act, normal people dont think "ill not beat that child up, i might get hung" they just dont think about it at all. . . .

[dirtydog]

I personally think the parents/guardians should be put through the same trauma, and maybe a little for the social services which failed the poor fella several times.

As for the low life scum, and thats whey to good, he should be tortured to death over a 5 year period, and agin, thats to good for them.

It's ****ing scum like that which deserve to be tortured then hung.

mainly beating the crap out of people who do these sick acts!

I would give anything for 10 minutes with those responsible


But would this not make us much the same as them?

[cuffy]

But would this not make us much the same as them?
No! Not in the slightest.
They would have a choice to defend themselves, where as a 18 month old child doesn't.

[Dangerous Dave]

But would this not make us much the same as them?
The parents/guardians are not defenceless toddlers; they are adults with the strength and power to do all these terrible things to a little boy. Why can the events not be turned?

This is my view, I understand that people may not agree with me, but I believe there is a limit to how far humanity can push itself.

[krhall]

But would this not make us much the same as them?


Who gives a toss - an eye for an eye and all that mate - these people do not deserve any human rights as IMO they are barely human.

I can only imagine that you are trying to play devils advocate here?

[neillfergie]

No! Not in the slightest.
They would have a choice to defend themselves, where as a 18 month old child doesn't.

Death is the solution to all problems. No man - no problem.
Joseph Stalin (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/j/josephstal388302.html)

[dirtydog]

No!
They would have a choice to defend themselves, where as a 18 month old child doesn't.


What people are saying is the torture should be their punishment.
In which case they would be restrained to some degree, be it physical restraints or the fact that they've taken a few severe beatings before hand.

[krhall]

Personally I don't for a moment see why you would let them defend theirselves? The child couldn't.

A slow and painful death would be fine by me.

[krhall]

"By the end, he was unrecognisable, his curly, golden locks shaved off, his cheeks hollow and his eyes dead to the world."

"He had more than 50 injuries or bruises - 15 of them to the mouth - and at one stage had been smeared with chocolate to hide the marks. In the 48 hours before he was found dead in his blood-spattered cot, a doctor failed to spot his broken spine."

I can see why you cried Dappa D, the above paragraphs choked me up too. Perhaps because I have a young son and can remember what he was like at 17 months, there is no way in this world I would have hurt him or let anyone else hurt him.

[dirtydog]

Who gives a toss - an eye for an eye and all that mate - these people do not deserve any human rights as IMO they are barely human.



Eye for an eye, so how far would you take that sentiment? I presume that's you and your daughter in your avatar? Hypothetical situation now (please don't take this personally)...
Some low life scum hurts/tortures/kills your daughter what do you do? Do you hurt/torture/kill them in return or do you wish to take the "eye for an eye" to the letter and hurt/torture/kill of one of their children?

[metalmonkey]

What really fuc** me off is that the people involved ie the coucil ect, these ppl are allowed to keep their jobs! What the hell.

At the very least they should be up on criminal charges, to me thats a totally failuire to even do their jobs that they very well paid to do. Its nothing short of negliat. You know if I did something like this, I would be locked up.

I have dealt with social services before, they were no help what so ever no one was intrested in helping this kid out, that had really sevre issues and left me and my others to deal with it.

All they did was pass the pass buck, they didn't give a shi* so I have a quite a lot of comptent when it comes to them, as they don't their job! In my experince.

I'm sure finger pointing will no follow, with an ineffective public enquiry ect...

As for the people that did this, what should be done with them? We don't have a death penatly in this country. The US still does, has that reduced violent crime?

Should we have a death peantly, so that in can be used for the most violent offenders? Or should we nice them and look for some pysic issuess?

[Tara]

Personally I don't for a moment see why you would let them defend theirselves? The child couldn't.

A slow and painful death would be fine by me.

gotta agree with this

and

you would've thought the council would've learnt something from the victoria Climbie case - the council should be held responsible too they have let at least two children down now.

[dirtydog]

Personally I don't for a moment see why you would let them defend theirselves? The child couldn't.

A slow and painful death would be fine by me.

I never said that they should be able to defend themselves my response was to this


They would have a choice to defend themselves, where as a 18 month old child doesn't.

[krhall]

I think it is safe to say that if one of my children were hurt in any way (I pray they are not), but should I find out who did it, then yes I would be prepared to kill.

......and no not to the letter why would I kill a child that had done no wrong.

[Dangerous Dave]

In which case they would be restrained to some degree, be it physical restraints or the fact that they've taken a few severe beatings before hand.
I'd give them the chance to fight back, let them see what that poor child could not do and they will see even more the true devastation they have caused.

It would help my anger management too....

[Alpinestarhero]

I saw it on the news this morning. I didn;t seem to take much notice...subconcious blanking out? I dunno.

But it is absolutly terrible :( when I look at my neice, I can't think why anyone would want to harm a defencless child :(

for some things, the death penalty should be brought back

[krhall]

I never said that they should be able to defend themselves my response was to this

I realised that - was just pointing out that Cuffy was wrong to give them an option to defend themselves.

All a bit irrelevant really as nothing will ever be done.

[dirtydog]

......and no not to the letter why would I kill a child that had done no wrong.


Ok so not completely "eye for an eye". but that person that you do kill would be someones child or someones parent

[missyburd]

Do we even know what if any sentances they got?

Doesn't matter, whatever sentence they "say" they've got, doubt its what they'll end up serving :rolleyes: :(

[Dangerous Dave]

you would've thought the council would've learnt something from the victoria Climbie case - the council should be held responsible too they have let at least two children down now.
...and also that social services only became involved in this little fellas life because he had attended hospital and the medical staff deemed it suspicious.

[yorkie_chris]

Tough. You wouldn't think twice about killing them if they were about to do that to a child, at least I hope any sane, reasonable person wouldn't. What else are you going to do? Let them back out into society after a couple of years like normally happens? Or keep them in prison for rest of their lives and cost everyone a fortune.

Give them a shovel, let them dig a nice comfy hole. total cost: wear and tear on spade, 2p, single shot of 5.56 44p. benefit to society, priceless.

[krhall]

The whole of society failed this kid IMO, we spend too much time being told what we are allowed to say, how we are allowed to act and how you are supposed to treat people.

Human Rights and Political Correctness is all total b*ll*cks, especially when we can't even stop a toddler with obvious signs of abuse from dyeing. I'm getting so worked up and angry about this it is untrue.

[krhall]

Tough. You wouldn't think twice about killing them if they were about to do that to a child, at least I hope any sane, reasonable person wouldn't. What else are you going to do? Let them back out into society after a couple of years like normally happens? Or keep them in prison for rest of their lives and cost everyone a fortune.

Give them a shovel, let them dig a nice comfy hole. total cost: wear and tear on spade, 2p, single shot of 5.56 44p. benefit to society, priceless.
:winner:

[skeetly]

ffs give the social workers a break. My wife is one.
There are thousands of kids in impossible situations with monsters hurting them.
The scale of it would shock you.
Me and the missus have wept round our kitchen table countless times.
It takes a kid to die spectacularly before they make the news.
Check it out; check out how many kids get killed by their parents every year, you'll have a fright. I'll not do it for you but I know its more than one a week.
Imagine how may are getting seriously hurt if thats how many die.
I bet we all know someone who is abusing their kids one way or another.
Theres so many that need looking out for some are going to slip the net; there's incompetents everywhere.
We cried an all........

[dirtydog]

I'm not saying I wouldn't like to beat seven shades out of them as what they did was so sick and disgusting. What i'm saying is would that be the (morally) right thing to do? If it was one of my kids then they would suffer greatly if I found them.

[Dangerous Dave]

single shot of 5.56 44p
Your getting ripped off there mate... ;)

[yorkie_chris]

Hey you posted that figure in another thread... I thought it was 13 or 14p :-P

In fact how much is 9x19? That's probably more suitable

[krhall]

Imagine how may are getting seriously hurt if thats how many die.

I bet we all know someone who is abusing their kids one way or another.


That's a horrific thought, I'm sure I don't know someone who is!

[krhall]

What i'm saying is would that be the (morally) right thing to do?

Morals don't come into this..........

[metalmonkey]

ffs give the social workers a break. My wife is one.
There are thousands of kids in impossible situations with monsters hurting them.
The scale of it would shock you.
Me and the missus have wept round our kitchen table countless times.
It takes a kid to die spectacularly before they make the news.
Check it out; check out how many kids get killed by their parents every year, you'll have a fright. I'll not do it for you but I know its more than one a week.
Imagine how may are getting seriously hurt if thats how many die.
I bet we all know someone who is abusing their kids one way or another.
Theres so many that need looking out for some are going to slip the net; there's incompetents everywhere.
We cried an all........

Yes I know, but its the fact these are in well paid resposiable jobs and they keep messing them up and kids die, for no other reason than these people can't do their jobs. If someone involved here had done their job right, then just maybe this kid may be alive today.

How many kids have to die, before something is done about this?

[Dangerous Dave]

Hey you posted that figure in another thread... I thought it was 13 or 14p :-P
According to the lastest budget figures it costs 37p.

[krhall]

According to the lastest budget figures it costs 37p.

Too expensive!

Buy a decent shovel for the "comfy bed" as suggested by YC then batter them to death with it. A far more sustainable solution, no need for furthe manufacturing costs etc. and certainly no more than one shovel every two years required.

[skeetly]

How many kids have to die, before something is done about this?
You think the vast majority of social workers aren't saying the same thing.

I just get fed up with the way people bandy 'social worker' like its a bad smell. Its unfair.

These tragedies occur because there are monsters among us.
And it aint the social workers.

[dizzyblonde]

For social services to miss one horrific child abus case in their area is bad enough, but when they do it a second time its bang out of order, especially when the press and public still remember the first child in their area to suffer. I can't understand how the hell they missed this. I also can't understand how a paediatrician can miss a child having a broken back. I said to YC last night, when you have a child they won't let you out of the hospital until the paediatrician has been round to check the baby over, and make sure it hasn't suffered any injuries in birth and also has had any defect whilst growing in the womb, so they are expert at finding out things like this...its disgusting that a child is left to suffer like this. Theres soemthing certainly amiss when 24hrs after the paediatrican examined babyP the poor thing died
Not only do I find it disgusting the child was let down by everyone there that should have protected it, but as someone who has lost babies I know how precious they are, so why do these people breed and be allowed to breed and bring children in the world that deserve a better life.
It sickened me yesterday lunch when I first saw the article, its sickeneing me now just thinking about how these animals could get away with sowmthing like this, especially not being caught til it was far too late, I hope they rot in hell

[krhall]

Well said dizzyblonde.

[Luckypants]

There are thousands of kids in impossible situations with monsters hurting them.
The scale of it would shock you.
Imagine how may are getting seriously hurt if thats how many die.
I bet we all know someone who is abusing their kids one way or another.


That's a horrific thought, I'm sure I don't know someone who is!

You probably do, but you just don't know that they are abusers. :( That is the really worrying part, the hidden abuse we don't see.

[krhall]

You probably do, but you just don't know that they are abusers. :( That is the really worrying part, the hidden abuse we don't see.

No way.........but I can see what you are saying.

[skeetly]

I hope no ones thinking I think this mess is acceptable!
It isn't. I'd drown the perpetrators in a bucket.
Whoever the specific social workers and doctor were need thier heads examining.
BUT its not social services per se.
It's incompetent/negligent social workers and an incompetent/negligent doctor in this instance.

A few years ago there was a huge rush of trainees for social work.
Most of em up and ran when they realised what they were asked to do.
Now they havent got enough. They are looking to bring people out of retirement.
Its a horrible job. People on the sharp end burn out regular.
It just makes my blood boil to hear people say 'social services' failed these kids when the vast majority of them are running round tryingt o do an impossible job and all ppl do is get out the burning crosses for every social worker whenever it goes wrong :(

[Luckypants]

No way.........but I can see what you are saying.

I hope you are right.

[cuffy]

You probably do, but you just don't know that they are abusers. :( That is the really worrying part, the hidden abuse we don't see.
It's not just physical or sexual abuse, it's also mental bullying that can cause problems.

[dirtydog]

BUT its not social services per se.
It's incompetent/negligent social workers and an incompetent/negligent doctor in this instance.

You are indeed correct and we shouldn't tar people with the same brush

[Ed]

...However, the job of a social worker is difficult and if we're not careful we will make it impossible. There's always a fine balance, here yes there are serious questions to be answered. But generally SWs try to keep families together. Look what happened at Orkney when social services went the other way. They're damned if they do and damned if they don't. Not an easy job and as stated the issues aren't always so clear cut.

If we victimise and stigmatise SWs, then nobody will want to do the job. Personally I think they do a terrifc role. Yes they make mistakes - as inthis case, serious ones - but overall they do a good job and I feel sad by the torrent of criticism.

...It just makes my blood boil to hear people say 'social services' failed these kids when the vast majority of them are running round tryingt o do an impossible job and all ppl do is get out the burning crosses for every social worker whenever it goes wrong :(

That's what I was trying to say. Everyone blames Community Services but in fact they are usually in a very difficult position. I fly a flag for them, they have a very difficult role.

[skeetly]

Sorry.
I just tend to get a tad defensive about it thats all.
I get to hear about it most evenings while my missus depressurises.
:-/

[missyburd]

+1 that has to be remembered here. Always easy to tar everyone with the same brush.

Any social workers on here, please don't get offended (much) by comments made (unless they're really out of order in which case, stick as many harmful smileys up as possible, here are a few examples :smt071:smt070:smt068:smt067:smt097:smt065 :smt021 :smt062)

;)

You are indeed correct and we shouldn't tar people with the same brush

snap.

[Messie]

I have a suggestion for all of you slagging off Social Workers and related caring professions...

you obviously believe you know better and can therefore do a better jo


So go and get f*ing qualified and do the job. The worls will clearly become a better place.








Ps or would it be more convenient, better paid whatever excuse you need to stay where you are behind a keyboard and right the world by digital strokes

[northwind]

We hear the horror that it was not prevented despite 60 visits. But we do not know the substance of the visits. We do not know what support/assistance the parents were offered. We do not know what plans social services et al had in place. We do not know what was required to trigger a visit, to escalate into care orders etc.

Just about nobody seemed to notice this, so I thought I'd post it again... "How can they have missed it?" is the question people keep asking, the fact is we have no idea, but we're judging anyway.

[Messie]

The 60+ visits were a total of all views by health/social/other caring services, not just one agency. Not that it makes it any better but if each of the contacts was with a different overworked hardpressed person in a different situation, when the mother was doing everything she could to cover it up, then it puts it into some kind of perspective. And no I'm not trying to excuse anyone of anything - just trying to put a wider perspective on things

On another note though, it is often said by those within the services that there is something rotten at the core of Harringey which makes it unlike any other area. I don't know how true this is, but I've heard it too often to dismiss it ( it's also where the Climbie case was)

[skeetly]

Aye wife was saying she'd heard similar.
Another view was that maybe its so bad out there that the people at the pointy end get sort of 'snow blind' to it all. Not good whatever it is....

[neio79]

Ps or would it be more convenient, better paid whatever excuse you need to stay where you are behind a keyboard and right the world by digital strokes

Would love to but i dont think my particular brand of social care would be very PC , and the Army may not like me moon lighting.

[Gene genie]

bring back CAPITAL PUNISHMENT and stuff the pc brigade.

[chakraist]

This is what the government measure ECM was meant to prevent after the first time with the little coloured girl. Obviously it hasn't worked.

[metalmonkey]

I have worked with kids since I was 18, both here and the US in that time built up quite a lot of experince.

I mean that child went to be looked at 60 times, nothing was done! That is what gets me this strikes me as people not doing their jobs for whatever reason there is no reasonable excuse for that at all. The fact the mother covered it up still doesn't make it okay. These people doing this job are meant to be there to protect people who can't protect themselves.

These people should held to account for this, along with the people in charge, no longer should any of this just be made to go away. Becasue quite clealy that hasn't worked.

I'm sure the vast majority of people feel the same as me. What is needed is less red tape and more time doing the job we all meant to be doing, no matter what job or profession we each do.

There have been changes made to the way child welfare has been approached in place now is "every child matters" which has changed the system a bit. It will be interesting to see if that improves anything, however that again is a different topic.

[krhall]

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l286/krhall_2006/untitled.jpg

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l286/krhall_2006/untitled2.jpg

I am shocked to the core and hear on the news this morning that another 3 year old and 3 month old have been killed.

Anything you PC lot want to add? Yeah yeah I know this is from the media, but assuming it is partially correct.......

[skeetly]

This is what the government measure ECM was meant to prevent after the first time with the little coloured girl. Obviously it hasn't worked.

Haringey is a tough place to do this job.
Huge cultural spread and a good part of it is seriously deprived.
40% understaffed. It appears they might have to sack everyone who is left to keep the hordes happy.
I'm sure there will be many many capable social workers (oh hang on theyre all useless so maybe not) who just cant wait to get in there and sort it all out.

Just remember you cant prove a negative.
Who knows how many kids would be hurt if they hadn't been removed.
Who knows how many kids would have been fine if they'd been left where they were.

Impossible choices. Sooner or later its going to be wrong.
Just to be as bigoted as some of you lot; ban parents I say; its always parents who kill kids murdered by their parents; they are all monsters.


edit.
Argh. Look I'm sorry. Its just not as simple as the papers make out.
:(

[krhall]

I'm not too sure anyone on here is being pompous and I for one haven't balmed anyone, although the reported facts do seem to point a massive failing on the part of every single person who has ever been involved with this kid, be that a social worker/hospital staff and so on........you cannot get away from the fact, that these type of injuries (again reported) cannot have gone unnoticed -can they?

[skeetly]

Its not clear, despite what the papers say, when all of the were caused.
Its absolutely unbelieveable the doctor didnt spot something was wrong.
Most of the SW I've spoken to cant believe no one spotted something was wrong.
BUT (at the risk of offending anyone from that area)
Its a rough old territory where this baby lived, the SW are dealing with people who are maybe not very educated, drug and alcohol problems etc.
The policy is to keep kids with their parents and try to help the parents to learn what good parenting is and not take the kids off them unless things get really bad.
Believe it or not taking the kids off their parents does NOT mean a happy ending for the kids as you would consider it for your own kids.
The poor little mites go into residential care with lots of other kids who have mostly come from atrocious back grounds and its not a 'normal' environment as you would see it. There are simply not enough foster parents nor adopters.
Thers a little mag you can get from a social services that would break your heart, its a catalogue of kids who need a home.

The SW are expected to start off friendly with the family and work towards re educating the parents to look after their kids and then at a magic moment decide its not working and then move into child protection and get the child removed. This requires LOTS of meetings with other agencies to actally decide if it can be done and a big operation with cops etc present as believe it or not parents have rights.

There are thousands of processes like this going on up and down the country right now. Human error just makes it a fact that sometimes it goes wrong.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Anything you PC lot want to add? Yeah yeah I know this is from the media, but assuming it is partially correct.......

PC lot? You have no clue do you. Get some perspective, this is ONE case out of what, tens of thousands of cases? What would you suggest, make it easier for the authorities to remove kids from their parents? Appart from the fact there's a good chance it wouldn't have helped in this case anyway, it'll inevitably result in a sharp increase in innocent people having their kids taken away.

And clearly you've not you stopped for a moment to consider what actually happens to many kids taken into care. Some will be lucky and be adopted by a loving family. But many will not, and the outlook for most kids in the care of the state is horrific. Vast numbers of kids in care will either become dependant on drugs, end up unemployed, homeless or in prison. Kids in care are in fact, by the very nature of their lack of proper up bringing, prime candidates for growing up to become abusive parents themselves.

This is precisely why you have to be abosolutely certain a child is at serious risk of harm before you even think about taking them away from their parents.

[Luckypants]

Appart from the fact there's a good chance it wouldn't have helped in this case anyway, ...

Not wanting to flame etc, but how do you justify that? Surely if the child was taken into care then the abuse would have stopped and her injuries treated? Wouldn't she be alive now? Ummm really don't see how it would not have helped.

[Ed]

I am shocked to the core and hear on the news this morning that another 3 year old and 3 month old have been killed.

Anything you PC lot want to add? Yeah yeah I know this is from the media, but assuming it is partially correct.......

*Sticks head over the parapet again*

See, here is the danger in prononcing guilt too soon.

It is now reported that the mother in manchester has been sectioned.

Puts a rather different complexion on things, no?

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Not wanting to flame etc, but how do you justify that? Surely if the child was taken into care then the abuse would have stopped and her injuries treated? Wouldn't she be alive now? Ummm really don't see how it would not have helped.

No no, read the previous sentance. Increased powers to remove the child wouldn't have helped because they already had the powers to do so, had they known what was happening to the child. For whatever reason they didn't realise what was happening, therefore I suspect that giving social services more power wouldn't have helped in this case.

[hovis]

bring back CAPITAL PUNISHMENT and stuff the pc brigade.


+1

and the social service people are just as bad for not reconising it sooner