Does jacking the back up work

[tonny006]

When ever i see adverts for shorter dog bones to jack the back up,they sap how it sharpen the front up and make it handle better.
Do racers use them and does it work or is it a sales ploy?

[yorkie_chris]

Yes they work.

It sharpens steering angle, reduces trail makes it easier to flick it about. Can overwhelm the weedy front end though unless you've got some more suitable springs in it.

[dizzyblonde]

or on the other hand, it jacks the back up and makes it steer too sharp into corners....not nice and IMO absolute shi!!te. Which is why i ripped the jack up kit off my black Sv when I bought it. If you want it to handle better invest in good tyres, good shock and good springs with oil to suit

[yorkie_chris]

It's personal preference, and the jack up kit alone doesn't make that much difference.

Bear in mind though it weights the front end. 2" difference in ride height might compress the front another inch, giving a MAJOR difference in handling.

[dizzyblonde]

Exactly with personal preference. Not everybody has two SVs to compare like I do

[plowsie]

GSX-R Front end, Raising dogbones and a 180/55 rear section. Bob's your uncle fanny's your aunt. That was absolutely perfect for me, got a nice quick flick when I needed it. The dogbones aren't the best place to start with upgrades for cornering, but hey, I'm doing that too if my current SV needs it, then putting the Busa shock in.

[plowsie]

It's personal preference, and the jack up kit alone doesn't make that much difference.

Bear in mind though it weights the front end. 2" difference in ride height might compress the front another inch, giving a MAJOR difference in handling.
Very true that.

[yorkie_chris]

Once again to reiterate: Sort the front spring rate out first!

[tonny006]

I've already got a gixer 1000 rear shoch ready to fit, I am going to buy some Avon Storms at the bike show.
How do i find out what rate front springs i need?

[dizzyblonde]

ahh well if your going to do the lot at once then you'll see the most benefit. If you still ain't happy then decide if a jack up kit is worth it...you don't say how tall you are, but that had a bearing on my decision to rip them off the bike too. I an't tiny, and my legs are as long as a 6ft bloke but it made for awkwardness at traffic lights etc

[tonny006]

ahh well if your going to do the lot at once then you'll see the most benefit. If you still ain't happy then decide if a jack up kit is worth it...you don't say how tall you are, but that had a bearing on my decision to rip them off the bike too. I an't tiny, and my legs are as long as a 6ft bloke but it made for awkwardness at traffic lights etc

Good point,I am 6'1 and about 15 1/2 stone.
I won't be doing the mods till next year because my son passed his test 2 months ago and he won't give the SV back until he gets a gixer 600.
Actually i am a lot happier he is learning on a SV

[dizzyblonde]

So you are round about the same height as the previous owner of my bike, he was 13 stone. I'm pretty sure that was the reason he had it on TBH, I know a few peeps that are tall like yourself that jack em up cause they feel like they riding a monkey bike without!

[SoulKiss]

or on the other hand, it jacks the back up and makes it steer too sharp into corners....not nice and IMO absolute shi!!te. Which is why i ripped the jack up kit off my black Sv when I bought it. If you want it to handle better invest in good tyres, good shock and good springs with oil to suit

Ask my mate Brendan about this (who incidently has a red curvy that he's neve ridden and actually has signed up for here but has never logged on)

He borrowed a mates bike while on a visit home to NZ.

His mate had put the wrong rear shock on (confusion over part numbers) which jacked the back up .

Which is why when he hit the stone on the road the tankslapper ocurred.

Which is why he flew back to the UK with 2 broken wrists.

And why his SV is still in his cousins garage and he has never ridden it (ok so it slightly more complicated than that - licensing issues with regards to the transfer of an NZ license).

So basically, dont mess with the bikes geometry unless you REALLY know what you are doing - and even then think about it again before you dol....

[Dangerous Dave]

Do racers use them and does it work or is it a sales ploy?
Yeap, it works. I wouldn't advise you jack the rear up without first adding new springs and oil to suit your weight into the front forks. It will help quicken up the steering, there will also be a bit more weight on the front end too. Whether you like it or not is a personal preference, we all ride differently and what you may like others may not.

I have the rear jacked up and the front dropped a little on both my SV's.

[tonny006]

Yeap, it works. I wouldn't advise you jack the rear up without first adding new springs and oil to suit your weight into the front forks. It will help quicken up the steering, there will also be a bit more weight on the front end too. Whether you like it or not is a personal preference, we all ride differently and what you may like others may not.

I have the rear jacked up and the front dropped a little on both my SV's.

Where do i find what front springs i need

[dizzyblonde]

So basically, dont mess with the bikes geometry unless you REALLY know what you are doing - and even then think about it again before you dol....


just to add, don't buy off ebay either. The dog bones are made of cheese off there!! get them from someone reputable
Funnily enough the ones that came off mine had JHS stamped on them, they still looked like they were made of cheapo cheese ally.

[tonny006]

just to add, don't buy off ebay either. The dog bones are made of cheese off there!! get them from someone reputable
Funnily enough the ones that came off mine had JHS stamped on them, they still looked like they were made of cheapo cheese ally.


I'm glad you told me that as that was where i was looking.

[Dangerous Dave]

Where do i find what front springs i need
Speak to Hagon (http://www.hagon-shocks.co.uk/main1st.htm)

get them from someone reputable
+ 1, try either JHS Racing (http://www.jhsracing.co.uk/) or CJ Accessories (http://www.cjaccessories.co.uk/home.php?cat=250) (they are also on Ebay). I have never had a bad experience from any of these two suppliers.

[dizzyblonde]

Speak to Hagon (http://www.hagon-shocks.co.uk/main1st.htm)


.

I prefer Hagon. One of mine has hagon throughout. The other has Ohlins springs, and for me personally I don't get on with them( but that could be down to the stock shock going carp so I'll see when its replaced). The Hagon has had the thumbs up ever since the lots been on the bike

[Dangerous Dave]

Aye, never heard a bad word about Hagon.

[boo86]

When ever i see adverts for shorter dog bones to jack the back up,they sap how it sharpen the front up and make it handle better.
Do racers use them and does it work or is it a sales ploy?

I've got the back up and the front down. It ran lovely with rensports but when I changed to Michelin races it was too much so I'm thinking of putting the front back to stock, It's about 5mm down at the moment.
Different tyres make a big differnece.

[johnnyrod]

I've got JHS shorter dogbones and also the rear Ohlins at full extension (added it afterwards, and front end is sorted though not dropped the yokes), thought I'd give it a try and if it tried to kill me I'd back it off. It's borderline unstable but you can change direction mid-corner by swilling tea around in your mouth. No steering damper, and no tankslappers so far, been a few years now.

[vardypeeps]

I think that Bandit Mania do Jack-up kits for SV's
I got one for the Bandit 600 from there and they gave me free fork spacers to stiffen the front abit more.

I ABSOLUTLY LOVED that bike after that mod but then I crashed it into a sheep. Damn

[St0rmer66]

I would change the shock first, the GSXR one is probably longer anyway. I found changing to a ZX10R shock that it turned in sharper (but not too much, just enough). Setting up the preload correctly also made a big difference and I have the rebound and compression set slightly on the harder side of comfortable. Front springs were replaced with Hagon progressives and slightly thicker fork oil (10w). If you put too thick oil in then it will be like having iron bars for forks.

[boo86]

I would change the shock first, the GSXR one is probably longer anyway. I found changing to a ZX10R shock that it turned in sharper (but not too much, just enough). Setting up the preload correctly also made a big difference and I have the rebound and compression set slightly on the harder side of comfortable. Front springs were replaced with Hagon progressives and slightly thicker fork oil (10w). If you put too thick oil in then it will be like having iron bars for forks.

In the forks I run 20 weight, home made ali spacers and 0.9nm / mm forks and it's spot on. It's a race bike though and never leaves the track.

[St0rmer66]

In the forks I run 20 weight, home made ali spacers and 0.9nm / mm forks and it's spot on. It's a race bike though and never leaves the track.
On a smooth surface it's fine having such stiff forks, but I only use my bike on the road :) .

[northwind]

That's a bit of a daft comment, spring rate is dependant on rider and bike weight so that might not be a stiff rate for him at all.

I run mine very tall at the back and a bit short at the front, and love it, it turns ridiculously fast and easily. But I wouldn't ask this of it with standard suspension, the standard stuff isn't too hot and so the relaxed standard geometry helps take the pressure off it a bit. As many people have said it's purely personal taste, and it's not too expensive or difficult to do so at worst you can redo it.

[yorkie_chris]

Remember, jacking the back up will also weight the front more, so jacking back up with standard forks isn't too good an idea

[johnnyrod]

Northy I think by stiff they weren't being that specific about spring rate alone. I think that combo would be too much for real B roads though

[yorkie_chris]

Even if you're 20 stone?

[stuballs]

I agree with everyone else. You absolutely have to have sorted suspension before you jack up the rear. And a steering damper would be a good idea. I raised the rear on my old carbed R6 and it was sweet but it needed a steering damper as it makes the front too twitchy.

[yorkie_chris]

The SV doesn't, I had SRAD750 shock at a couple of inches over stock, SRAD600 forks shorter than stock... and no tankslappers. Odd bit of a wiggle but nothing to need a damper for.

[Viney]

Personaly, my bike has its back jacked up, the girlfirends doesnt. I cant tell the difference at all!

Unless you start chucking lots of money at the bike (Cartridege forks, decent rear shock) i believe that there is no point in it at all.

[yorkie_chris]

Nah you don't have to spend much to get that :-P

[Dangerous Dave]

steering damper would be a good idea.
The SV doesn't need a steering damper.

[johnnyrod]

20 stone comment - yeah okay smartarse.

I found in stock form mine was hard to keep on a tight line out of a bend, so speeding up the steering does help a lot, plus the better control mid-corner

[SoulKiss]

The SV doesn't need a steering damper.

Not even if you jack the back up and dont adjust the front to compensate?

I DO agree with you that as stock an SV doesn't need one - but make the front too twitchy and might a damper not be a good idea?

Mind you I found the SV to steer just fine without the back end changed.

[Dangerous Dave]

Not even if you jack the back up and dont adjust the front to compensate?
You shouldn't consider jacking the back up without looking into upgrading the front forks first, I mentioned this in a previous post.

I have GSXR750SRAD forks, dropped 5mm, and the rear jacked up with shorter linkages with the Ohlins at its maximum length. Never had any issues, even when the 750 forks hadn't been sorted.

Steering dampers mask a poor chassis and suspension set-up, it is not a cure.

[yorkie_chris]

Mine would have a bit of a wiggle, but that was when I had the compression set way too hard at the back. That was with less aggressive geometry than daves (ohlins is a bit longer than the SRAD750 shock when ride height is set at top!)

The little wiggle was nothing to worry about, quite fun actually.

Odd that you could drop the yokes 5mm though, I had to have them flush to avoid the mudguard and radiator making friends at full compression. 750 forks must be a bit longer.

[Dangerous Dave]

Odd that you could drop the yokes 5mm though, I had to have them flush to avoid the mudguard and radiator making friends at full compression. 750 forks must be a bit longer.
They still do, well they just touch each other at full compression which I am not to worried about.

[stuballs]

Steering dampers mask a poor chassis and suspension set-up, it is not a cure.

Not sure that i agree with that. I think when you take the geometry beyond a certain point on any bike that a steering damper is a benefit. I've no experience of this with th sv though so i guess it must be really soft as standard if you can do all that and it not feel twitchy. But that takes us off topic a bit :)

[Dangerous Dave]

Not sure that i agree with that. I think when you take the geometry beyond a certain point on any bike that a steering damper is a benefit.
Many race teams actually run with the damper at the minimum setting, the damper is there to turned up when they cannot get the chassis set-up correctly. For example in the 2007 BSB season Haslam ran his damper on a low setting, Kiyonari's was actually disconnected, on a bike which had a fantastic chassis and a steep steering angle.

I've no experience of this with th sv though so i guess it must be really soft as standard if you can do all that and it not feel twitchy.
The SV has a great chassis, only let down by the front and rear suspension.

[stuballs]

I stand in awe of your superior knowledge!

I had planned on sorting my curvy's suspension out over winter. Hagon springs, thicker roil, replacement shock (ZX6R, GXSR or similar - still reseacrching). I wasn't going to jack up until I could afford a damper but now I think I'll do it and see what happens.

[Dangerous Dave]

I stand in awe of your superior knowledge!
Just experience, been playing with SV's since 1999 and many other models before and after.

ZX6R, GXSR or similar - still reseacrching
I personally am not a fan of the swaps, yes it is an improvement over stock but the shock was not designed and even set-up for an SV. A proper SV designed race shock is another huge step over a swapped shock.

A Hagon or the cheaper Ohlins (for a Pointy) is a good upgrade at a lower cost.

[stuballs]

I don't want to hijack this thread so I might post separately when the times comes. But quite simpy I can't afford a purpose built race shock so I either swap for another bike's unit or leave it as standard. Figured another bike's unit would be better if I give it the proper thought.

Cheers

[Dangerous Dave]

I don't want to hijack this thread so I might post separately when the times comes.
Use this thead...

http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=119062

[DarrenChay]

i've just bought replacement dog bones to raise the rear end, for cosmetic purposes really (the sv is long and low anyway, but even more so with my fat ass perched on it!)

Does anyone have any before and after photos of jacking their bike up?, as given what i've read here, i might not do it yet unless its actually visibly noticeable.

D

[yorkie_chris]

I personally am not a fan of the swaps, yes it is an improvement over stock but the shock was not designed and even set-up for an SV. A proper SV designed race shock is another huge step over a swapped shock.

Maybe so, but nowhere near the improvement-per-£

[johnnyrod]

Darren, it's only an inch or so really. If it's looks you're after then "invest" in a different bit of plastic for the back end. You won't like it when it rains though. Have you got the preload and spring weight right, if you're somewhat corpulent?

[zadar]

Steering dampers mask a poor chassis and suspension set-up, it is not a cure.
funny,most better handling bikes have them stock from factory :)

[Ceri JC]

funny,most better handling bikes have them stock from factory :)

Is it not possible that part of the reason these (generally higher cost) higher spec machines have them is that it makes them look "trick" and closer to race spec machines, which in turn sells more bikes? Perhaps an analogy would be a slipper clutch- they're becoming ever more prevalent on the latest sports bikes, yet it's questionable how necessary they are for most road riders. What proportion of their appeal (for most riders, I know you're a bit different ;)) comes from the practical use of it, versus the bragging rights?

As to the SV needing one, I've only had one tank slapper (by which I mean the bars slamming from full lock to full lock, with enough force to dent the lock stops) on the SV and that was when my front wheel hit a deer. I've had the bars "wag" cornering over bumps at speed, but improving the suspension has all but eliminated this. I have seen some people confuse bars wagging with tank slappers, been overly worried about it and "fixed" the problem by buying a steering damper before properly sorting the suspension out. I think this is what DD is talking about.

[zadar]

no,it is not to look trick.it is safety part.
regardless how you ride or how you set your suspension you can run in situation where damper helps.and that is reason it is on bike.
saying it masks bad suspension set up makes no sense.you set up suspension for what you use bike.there is no one set up that works for all riders and all uses.
and it does not have to do anything with set up.many times rider itself makes tank slapper.

[stuballs]

tbh my main reason for fitting a damper to my bikes is the extra stability and "safety cushion" they give you when stunting. Ever landed the front wheel slightly off centre after a high speed mono? The steeper the front forks the worse it is if you mess up the landing. same for stoppies (though steering rake makes no difference).

As for modern bikes having trick equipment as standard I suspect it's a combination of marketing and being able to use the trick bits in superstock (they can't fit a slipper clutch if it's not standard equipment)

I'd say we're not well and truly off topic! Sorry

[Dangerous Dave]

funny,most better handling bikes have them stock from factory :)
The Honda Fireblade had the MotoGP evolution one fitted for years, and yet Honda will tell you it doesn't need a damper and along with the fact that the race teams didn't use it was proof enough.

[Dangerous Dave]

saying it masks bad suspension set up makes no sense.you set up suspension for what you use bike.there is no one set up that works for all riders and all uses.
Answered you own point there, the fact is a mass produced bike cannot be set up to suit every rider from the factory.

[DarrenChay]

"Somewhat corpulent" Tactfully put!

Preload is set 1 from top (although I understand jacking the back up increases preload slightly for any given setting?)
Fork springs will need doing, particularly after reading up more on here, as i'm around 18st so even more weight over the front end.
I originally thought the requirement for sorting the front end wouldnt matter so much to me, as I dont exactly take the bike to anything approaching its limits (cos i'm still carp!)

I think I'll leave the replacement dog bones off for now, untill I fit some uprated fork springs.

Darren, it's only an inch or so really. If it's looks you're after then "invest" in a different bit of plastic for the back end. You won't like it when it rains though. Have you got the preload and spring weight right, if you're somewhat corpulent?

[dizzyblonde]

As to the SV needing one, I've only had one tank slapper (by which I mean the bars slamming from full lock to full lock, with enough force to dent the lock stops) on the SV and that was when my front wheel hit a deer. I've had the bars "wag" cornering over bumps at speed, but improving the suspension has all but eliminated this. I have seen some people confuse bars wagging with tank slappers, been overly worried about it and "fixed" the problem by buying a steering damper before properly sorting the suspension out. I think this is what DD is talking about.

haha i think we must be the only ones to know what a full tank slapper on an SV feels like....:smt115I urge everybody to hit a deer...lol
In that I mean, its a rarety to get a tank slap on an SV and you have to do something pretty spectacular to get one.

Steering damper needed on an SV? what a crock o dogs.....:rolleyes:

[zadar]

the fact is a mass produced bike cannot be set up to suit every rider from the factory.
exactly.and when I set up bike to suit me it needs damper.
there is nothing wrong with my suspension set up :)

[northwind]

haha i think we must be the only ones to know what a full tank slapper on an SV feels like....:smt115I urge everybody to hit a deer...lol
In that I mean, its a rarety to get a tank slap on an SV and you have to do something pretty spectacular to get one.

Steering damper needed on an SV? what a crock o dogs.....:rolleyes:

I lock-to-locked mine once. But it took an AWFUL lot of incomeptence when "setting up" my rear shock :mrgreen: So much rebound damping that it packed down massively over a load of bumps then started kicking the front instead of soaking them up. Scarier than actually crashing, that. Luckily it turned out that the perfect response was to freeze in terror and do nothing.

Stock SVs certainly don't need a damper. That's an easy question. Other SVs, not so easy. Depends on build and use. Like, if you rode only at Knockhill, which is now fantastically smooth, then that'd let you away with a lot more than if you rode only at East Fortune, which is like a potato field with a skin of tarmac over it...