Spend, Spend, Spend!!!

[Rich]

So come on then who else is going to celebrate the VAT cut and spend some cash.. :rolleyes:

What aload of tosh, do they not live in the real world these MP's. What they give with one hand they take with the other. Ok lower VAT but then to increase Fuel tax :(, alcohol and cig's (don't smoke myself) and claim they are doing us a favour do they think we are stupid.

The only people to gain from this is people claiming child benefits and OAP's claiming pensions gaining £60 which is fine but what about the rest of us. Any saving we get will go straight back to Brown through fuel tax ect.

They aren't giving anything away and in the long run this VAT cut will make us all worse off :rant:

[zsv650]

yep derr brains.

[neillfergie]

the only way to put more money in everyone's pocket is to reduce income tax for middle earners (20k-60k) so normal people who don't qualify for tax benefits/breaks, incapacity benefits, oap benefits actually have more money in their banks each month and then the can spend it on other things!!!



more chance of winning the lottery though.

[Wideboy]

more is needed than that, there needs to be a big kick to get people spending but this wont happen as everyone is penny pinching

[Rich]

yep derr brains.

Thanks for you input, but sounds like an insult!! :smt108

[zsv650]

the only way to put more money in everyone's pocket is to reduce income tax for middle earners (20k-60k) so normal people who don't qualify for tax benefits/breaks, incapacity benefits, oap benefits actually have more money in their banks each month and then the can spend it on other things!!!



more chance of winning the lottery though.
oh yeah cheers screw the people on lower incomes very nice:(

[zsv650]

Thanks for you input, but sounds like an insult!! :smt108
hahaha not you bud government:D

[Rich]

hahaha not you bud government:D

:D oh ignor me then, insult them all you want!!

[zsv650]

:D oh ignor me then, insult them all you want!!
as if i'd call you derr brains;)

[Wideboy]

hows work for you uber, suppose your not really badly effected as you do repairs?

[dizzyblonde]

oh they were so generous, i think I'll go out and spend it straight away.....




.....on pennie chews:rolleyes: cause thats all it amounts up to really isn't it:confused:

[Gene genie]

tax cut being a spending incentive. call me old fashioned but aint that attitude one of the reasons why were in this pickle to begin with. the consumer spending money he cant afford.
COME ON BROWN WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!!!!!!!!

[Rich]

hows work for you uber, suppose your not really badly effected as you do repairs?

Very busy, we're actually employing people at the moment while others are making redundant. We have a couple of big housing association contracts which helps keep us a float. We do alsorts from brand new systems, repairs, fault finding, solid fuel to commercial work..

I'm kept busy installing gas, oil and solid fuel systems. Luckily theres not too many installers on the firm compared to service engineers so my jobs safe for now. This time of year goes crazy for us, in summer i'm normally home by 3:30-4:00,, i'm lucky if im home by 6 now.. :(

Hows yours going Wideboy???

[Wideboy]

Hows yours going Wideboy???

crap lol

only 3 left in my gang, picked up past 3 week so have been working few nights travelling about covering all the people that have been let go, been told there wont be any more lay offs as there is only 3 joiners left on the firm, but im not holding my breath

not looking forward to march cause we're going to get mental with some new builds and its going to be busy as hell

[Rich]

crap lol

only 3 left in my gang, picked up past 3 week so have been working few nights travelling about covering all the people that have been let go, been told there wont be any more lay offs as there is only 3 joiners left on the firm, but im not holding my breath

not looking forward to march cause we're going to get mental with some new builds and its going to be busy as hell

You'd have thought it would have been more helpful to bail out companies like yours aswell as the banks. Given some money relief you could have paid the buggers back when things were good again. Instead they bail them out we still lose jobs and no ones better off. I'm not that clever and i can see that. Glad your still in the job, i wouldn't fancy being made redundant at this moment in time.

[Wideboy]

You'd have thought it would have been more helpful to bail out companies like yours aswell as the banks. Given some money relief you could have paid the buggers back when things were good again. Instead they bail them out we still lose jobs and no ones better off. I'm not that clever and i can see that. Glad your still in the job, i wouldn't fancy being made redundant at this moment in time.


yeah always seems like they have a plan to please the masses but it never solves anything, lowering VAT rates means f all and if it comes to f all then how are people going to spend

if someones job is under the spot light they're not going to go out spending there money are they, even if they have it, they're going to be stashing as much of it as they can away like i have been

[Biker Biggles]

tax cut being a spending incentive. call me old fashioned but aint that attitude one of the reasons why were in this pickle to begin with. the consumer spending money he cant afford.
COME ON BROWN WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!!!!!!!!

Got it in one mate.We have been borrowing money we cant afford to spend on consumer goods made abroad by foriegn interests for decades.Theres the root of the problem and the only solution any of our useless leaders can suggest is more of the same.I despair.

[Frank]

I saw all tyhis coming yrs ago so started to save for it.
Put 10 grand in ISA and OEIC 5 yrs ago and watched it go up to 14 grand.
WoHoo









Got my statement yesterday...£10800



WTF


makes you wonder if it is worth saving.

[Gene genie]

Got it in one mate.We have been borrowing money we cant afford to spend on consumer goods made abroad by foriegn interests for decades.Theres the root of the problem and the only solution any of our useless leaders can suggest is more of the same.I despair.
your right, it just baffles me.:smt102 i'm sure were both not that old but i recall the economy used to rely savings, now it seems to be debt.](*,)

[Biker Biggles]

Whats OEIC???
I did similar.Paid off a large chunk of mortgage,and dosh in ISA.I didnt predict the date,or the banking stuff,but the overall crash was so obvious a result of an unsustainable economy it had to happen.It never ceases to amaze me that our great leaders,and the self appointed "experts" that we allow to influence us failed us so dismally,but we still allow them to lord it over us like it was all our fault.

[Gene genie]

Whats OEIC???
I did similar.Paid off a large chunk of mortgage,and dosh in ISA.I didnt predict the date,or the banking stuff,but the overall crash was so obvious a result of an unsustainable economy it had to happen.It never ceases to amaze me that our great leaders,and the self appointed "experts" that we allow to influence us failed us so dismally,but we still allow them to lord it over us like it was all our fault.
and its up to the taxpayer to constantly bail them out!!!!!!

[yorkie_chris]

Got it in one mate.We have been borrowing money we cant afford to spend on consumer goods made abroad by foriegn interests for decades.Theres the root of the problem and the only solution any of our useless leaders can suggest is more of the same.I despair.

My thoughts almost exactly.

In Halifax, council have built a roof over a road with 3 cafes, a cobblers and a place which will rent you a suit. At vast expense. Lining the pockets of some local contractor. Pi$$ed all money up against wall and hoping more of same will help?!? Wtf?

I keep likening government to a bunch of commies, and it seems they have the same grasp of finance.

[Gene genie]

we all need to get together on this and show them once and for all.

[dizzyblonde]

My thoughts almost exactly.

In Halifax, council have built a roof over a road with 3 cafes, a cobblers and a place which will rent you a suit. At vast expense. Lining the pockets of some local contractor. Pi$$ed all money up against wall and hoping more of same will help?!? Wtf?

I keep likening government to a bunch of commies, and it seems they have the same grasp of finance.

aye you forgot the crappy old ladies shoe shop, the second hand CD place and the 2 quid blokes haircut place!! Don't forget its a super glass roof, its not just any roof you know....oh and it leaks:smt120
...mind you its the best place for all the locals to drown their sorrows with a bottle of white lightening in a brown paper bag, and stay dry in this dismal climate...in a dismal town!
HX is so naff they can't attract large retailers here, because the council charge such high rents. All they seem to be able to attract is an abundance of mobile phone and charity shops:rolleyes:

So guess what...I don't think I'll be spending much of the tax decrease in our town

[Gene genie]

2 quid blokes haircut place!!
wheres this dizzy, a bit pricey mind but hey i'm worth it.

[Frank]

Id have lost less money blowing it on a new car

[Gene genie]

Id have lost less money blowing it on a new car
i'm just about to and no you wouldn't.

[northwind]

Right, so. Hands up everyone in this thread who'd be screaming blue murder if they'd ADDED 2.5% to VAT, at any time in the last decade. Everyone. Righto. But they take it off, and it's irrelevant :confused:

[missyburd]

HX is so naff they can't attract large retailers here, because the council charge such high rents. All they seem to be able to attract is an abundance of mobile phone and charity shops:rolleyes:


Woah woah woah, they've got a Wilkinsons AND a 99p shop, what more dya want! :rolleyes: honestly....


Oh and that 2nd-hand CD place wasn't all that bad when I used to go in there, used to buy em off ya, sorted!

sorry derail, you're right about the glass roof, waste of money, bah, grumble grumble... :-D

[yorkie_chris]

Northy, it's the fact that they think it's going to help matters. It seems to me they are chasing a fundamental flaw and trying to carry on the trend which has got us all into this $hit in the first place.

Whatever, they've taken 2.5% off, they'll add 3 in other areas. If not now then later.

[SV-net]

Im gonna let the Mrs go spend on the joint credit card again this weekend. Grab those bargains now lady but you go alone whilst I get the bike out. It makes my motorcycling expensive but we are both happy with the deal. haha.

[dizzyblonde]

Its those in the middle that seem to be forgotten about. A reductiion in VAT or what ever its done isn't going to encourage anyone to spend, any more or any less than they do now. The damage has been done.
The intended help for those on low incomes like myself, on certain tax creds etc, are supposed to benefit? I probably doubt I'll notice.
THose that earn a fortune anyways, have already got shed loads of the stuff under the mattress and in the bank, so they won't notice
But what about those in the middle...have they forgot them? WHat do they get? Bullies special prize?

[Baph]

Right, so. Hands up everyone in this thread who'd be screaming blue murder if they'd ADDED 2.5% to VAT, at any time in the last decade. Everyone. Righto. But they take it off, and it's irrelevant :confused:
I wouldn't really give a damn if VAT increased by 2.5%. Most necessities I buy are just that, necessities, and as such, don't fall under the highest VAT rate anyhow.

Give me 2.5% higher VAT & 4% lower fuel duty & I'd be happy. :)

[SV-net]

+1 Baph

[Baph]

Its those in the middle that seem to be forgotten about. A reductiion in VAT or what ever its done isn't going to encourage anyone to spend, any more or any less than they do now. The damage has been done.
The intended help for those on low incomes like myself, on certain tax creds etc, are supposed to benefit? I probably doubt I'll notice.
THose that earn a fortune anyways, have already got shed loads of the stuff under the mattress and in the bank, so they won't notice
But what about those in the middle...have they forgot them? WHat do they get? Bullies special prize?
Nothing to do with the reason behind the VAT cut really.

The UK is in danger of a serious deflation. Typically in a deflation people don't buy becuase they're forever holding out for tomorrow, when prices will be cheaper than the day before. The problem feeds itself.

The VAT rate cut is to allow them to later show the figures as improving (even though they actually haven't), thus making the masses believe the crisis is almost over, and making them more happy to spend (later, not now).

It's a long ball statistics game. They're just fiddling the statistics before the data is even collected.

[northwind]

UK consumer lending isn't what got us into this position at all though, at least not directly. It's an awful lot more complex than that. It's a symptom rather than a cause IMO.

I think Vince Cable was spot on, he had a good day- the plans that they just rolled out are basically good plans, and could work, but there's no real plan B. But... The thing is, the scale of this crisis is such that if the bailouts and interventions and plans don't work, then there's not really any plan B that could be effective, because our economy's so interweaved internally and externally. My main worry isn't that they succeed or fail, it's that they just barely succeed or fail allowing the old system to creak on with the same rot in the middle, with the real economy still totally dependant on the imaginary one and with the real value of an asset still less important than the perceived value. At the end of the day, THAT's what got us into this position. And that's a systemic, international problem.

[northwind]

Nothing to do with the reason behind the VAT cut really.

The UK is in danger of a serious deflation. Typically in a deflation people don't buy becuase they're forever holding out for tomorrow, when prices will be cheaper than the day before. The problem feeds itself.

The VAT rate cut is to allow them to later show the figures as improving (even though they actually haven't), thus making the masses believe the crisis is almost over, and making them more happy to spend (later, not now).

It's a long ball statistics game. They're just fiddling the statistics before the data is even collected.

Good post. Yes. it's the only game to play with the rules we have just now I reckon.

[Baph]

the real economy still totally dependant on the imaginary one and with the real value of an asset still less important than the perceived value. At the end of the day, THAT's what got us into this position. And that's a systemic, international problem.

+1. It's people not understanding the basic value of Sterling that got us into this mess.

But underhanded 'gifts' whilst clearly taking more money off people won't solve the situation. Thats clear to any *ick, Tom or Harry. :)

[dizzyblonde]

They may as well be playing tiddlywinks with the nations brass coppers

...its a suck it and see

[yorkie_chris]

Surely the only value of any asset is what someone is willing to pay for it.

Saw the same thing a couple of years ago wiring up "luxury apartments" they were built cheaper than council flats, the greedy sods were trying to charge £100k + for these 'orrible boxes built out of $hit. Suprise suprise most are still for sale.

[the_runt69]

They may as well be playing tiddlywinks with the nations brass coppers

...its a suck it and see

Theyre setting upthe next Govenment with a load of debt so taxes will have to rise to pay for it all. They expect to lose so will blame the higher taxes on the next government as if they had nothi ng to do with it. Typical Labour tactics, Maggie got away with with it as she told the truth at the beginning, hope Cameron can do the same.

[Baph]

Surely the only value of any asset is what someone is willing to pay for it.


Therein lies the problem. Desire. If people perceive something to be worth the price on the sticker, and desire the item enough, then it's bought (if they have the cash with/without borrowing).

If you don't want the item, you don't buy it however much it costs. If you perceive it's value to be less than the sticker price, you barter or shop elsewhere - consumers driving prices down by simple business rules (supply vs demand).

[Rog]

The worlds whole economy is based on debt and this would generally work if you could only borrow money without interest but with a fee. The problem comes when banks create money. This happens all the time at about a 9-1 ratio so for every 1,000 dollars lended out you can create 100,000 dollars in imaginary money. The problem comes from the fact that the created money, i.e all this imaginary money and its interest will always escalate away from the amount of real wealth. So to balance this system you have to have massive crashes (reccesions, deppressions) to wipe out the debt to start again. The problem is the higher you go the harder the fall.

The government know this and despite their best efforts we will hit hard times. I suppose what they are trying to do is prevent us from hitting our face on every step on the way down.

Anyone who believes that another government would have handled it better is fooling themselves as this fall was inevitable.

Watch this linky. It's extremely interesting but also bloody scary.


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279

[northwind]

Surely the only value of any asset is what someone is willing to pay for it.


The value of an asset is what it can do- what value it can add- not the price tag on it. The cliche about everything being worth whatever someone will pay for it was never true. Simple analogy- if I offer you a pound for your SV, will you sell it? It must be only worth a pound because that's the only offer on the table.

Better analogy- what's a mechanic's toolkit worth? The 2nd hand value? Or the value-added when he uses it to build something?

[northwind]

This happens all the time at about a 9-1 ratio so for every 1,000 dollars lended out you can create 100,000 dollars in imaginary money.

Uh, that's not a 9-1 ratio, it's a 100-1 ratio ;)

[Rog]

It explains it better in the video link but every time you put money in the bank the bank create money of it and that includes already created money.

[northwind]

(looks into Money As Debt film)

It's got a basis in fact- fractional reserve banking is how all our banking systems work, it's just the basic concept that banks don't have to have reserves equal to their exposures. It's nothing new or shocking, if you've seen It's A Wonderful Life then you know everything of interest this film has to say, it seems. But you can't think it's an impartial essay on the banking systems, surely? It's not quite Loose Change for Banking, but it's not a million miles off.

[Sid Squid]

Right, so. Hands up everyone in this thread who'd be screaming blue murder if they'd ADDED 2.5% to VAT, at any time in the last decade. Everyone. Righto. But they take it off, and it's irrelevant :confused:
You may have a point - painfully making things worse in the current situation would be something we'd all rightfully criticise.

But this cut is irrelevant, an expensive, (for us, don't forget), piece of crass window dressing, which will do nothing to stimulate spending but will cost a lot in revenue.

What worries me is where our money has gone, far too much of our borrowing has come from overseas, we're mortgaged to oblivion, the government won't slim down the mechanism of state so little of our tax money is servicing those payments, and now Brown gambles more borrowed money. Money we will have to pay back.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

We're going to go through a few years of pain, but lets not forget that this follows 20 years of massive growth, so we need some perspective here.

As for the government, well, 'New' Labour have shown they're still very much Old Labour. More fool the electorate for not kicking them out sooner.

[metalmonkey]

Northy, it's the fact that they think it's going to help matters. It seems to me they are chasing a fundamental flaw and trying to carry on the trend which has got us all into this $hit in the first place.

Whatever, they've taken 2.5% off, they'll add 3 in other areas. If not now then later.

Yup Chris is right, I don't who read the entire thing on what they have done?

National insurance will go up for everyone at 0.5%, while tax increase on booze, fags, and fuel. So bascicaly when have all been screwed. I don't see how less VAT for a few months will make differnce at all.

Labour have screwed up again surpised:rolleyes:

[timwilky]

Sorry but a 2.5% reduction in VAT is going to make sod all difference in my decisions to spend or not. I make my choice on need, affordability and ability to pay.

If they want to make people feel wealthier, cut income tax by raising personal allowance to something people can live on.

[missyburd]

None of it makes any difference to me, more's the pity. I just wish they'd make milk and cheese cheaper :rolleyes:

[Baph]

I just wish they'd make milk and cheese cheaper :rolleyes:
Neither of which you actually have to pay VAT for. :D

[missyburd]

Neither of which you actually have to pay VAT for. :D

lmao. See I'm special :D They should still make it cheaper though!

[Demonz]

Less 2% VAT so around £300 saving per annum I work it out to?

[Biker Biggles]

Maybe they should abolish employers national insurance contributions so as to make keeping staff on the payrole cheaper???
After all its rising unemployment that causes most house reposessions and snuffs out most demand.Thats before we consider the increased welfare payments and health implications.

Also,if we are going to go down this route of borrowing billions lets at least make sure it gets spent on British industry creating British jobs,or infrastructure projects that will assist British industry to be competitive in the future.
I fear this will not happen,and we will see money thrown at anything causing an increase in spending on imported consumer goods,exactly the problem we need to solve.

[Sosha]

"to put money in peoples pockets so they have more to spend..."

If they wanted to help out those feeling the pinch why not raise the lower tax band. Reduce VAT? So you go into a supermarket to be met by 31.4757p instead of 32p (or whatever...)

Great if you want to buy a car, roof/ home cinema/ speedboat/ something really expensive though. So. Those with money to spend get a bonus, those without get tempted into further debt.

Good job.

[Sudoxe]

"to put money in peoples pockets so they have more to spend..."

If they wanted to help out those feeling the pinch why not raise the lower tax band. Reduce VAT? So you go into a supermarket to be met by 31.4757p instead of 32p (or whatever...)

Great if you want to buy a car, roof/ home cinema/ speedboat/ something really expensive though. So. Those with money to spend get a bonus, those without get tempted into further debt.

Good job.

Bugger, i knew i shouldn't of ordered the new speed boat with the home cinema system in to go with the new Bentley....oh wait...time to wake up again...back down the mine. :sad::smt024

[Viney]

Well, the parts for the Triple ar going to be chaper, so it will save your a fortune ;)

[Rog]

(looks into Money As Debt film)

It's got a basis in fact- fractional reserve banking is how all our banking systems work, it's just the basic concept that banks don't have to have reserves equal to their exposures. It's nothing new or shocking, if you've seen It's A Wonderful Life then you know everything of interest this film has to say, it seems. But you can't think it's an impartial essay on the banking systems, surely? It's not quite Loose Change for Banking, but it's not a million miles off.

Your quite right Northwind I wasnt suggesting that the film has it down but it does give incite to those that dont know how our banking system works and why the system has intrinsicly built into it boom and bust. Put simple a finite system cannot have infinite growth no matter how slow.

Labours greatest mistake was not what they are doing now but trying to convince people that the days of boom and bust were gone.

As for anyone that wishes the Tories were back in, may I remind you of the 91,92 crash in which they did bugger all except put there fingers in their ears and pretend it wasnt happening. As a conseqeunce britian was one of the worst countries hit by the reccession in the world!!!

Be careful what you wish for.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

As a conseqeunce britian was one of the worst countries hit by the reccession in the world!!!

Maybe, but how well placed were the Tories to deal with the crisis then? Not as well as the current government.

The current government was handed the country with a strong economy giving them huge tax takes. Did they save for the hard times during the good? No. In fact not only did they squander everything they were raking in, they borrowed sh*t loads and blew that for good measure too. Then they took everyones pensions and ****ed those up the wall as well.

I find it so galling that, should you get caught pinching something like a £10 DVD from a shop, you'll end up with a criminal record effectively ending a professional career should you have one. Steal billions from the people you're supposed to be working for however, and you get a promotion!

What Brown does now shouldn't matter a jot. He's bankrupt the country and if justice was served, he'd be shot in parliment square for all to see.

Quite frankly though, we as an electorate have voted that idiot in 3 times now, so we've not gotten any less than we deserve.