Another terrorist attack

[gettin2dizzy]

I'm getting sick to death with these now. How long can we pretend that Islam has nothing to do with it?

The Koran states that they can't live alongside the rest of us, so we can only expect this futile battle of religious ideology to continue.
Surely we're beyond the point of believing in such tripe.

[Moffatt666]

Not to drag this down further, but Islam came into existence long after Judaism and Christianity using translated texts from both but has decided that all other religions (including the other Judo-Christians) must be destroyed along with their followers and all non-believers are 'infidel' DESPITE BELIEVING IN THE SAME GOD!
[/rant]

[Dangerous Dave]

Only a small percentage of terrorist attacks are actually proven to have anything to do with religion. I am not a religious person so I am not defending anyone, I think it is all a load of twoddle but that is my personal opinion and I have a right to feel this way.

Don't believe everything you hear or read in the news.

[Biker Biggles]

Very true.
Religion is often the pretext but not the real reason for all manner of politics,terrorist or not.
More often it is about control of land and resources.In fact its always about that.

[Dangerous Dave]

More often it is about control of land and resources.
Aye, I was operating in * during a so called religious war and I can tell you for a fact there was something else more precious to be had.

[gettin2dizzy]

If the conflict is about resources, why are the targets people?

A war fighting for territory is performed with a completely different strategy.

This is just their jihad.

[yorkie_chris]

You get extremist points of veiw in lots of places. You want another crusade? Take everyones mind off the economy :-P

What really annoys me is the current government, these towelhead muppets are apparently trying to change our way of life ... so rather than just ignoring them, they use it as an excuse for more liberty-robbing laws and ideas. Gah.

Anyway. Religion, money, politics are all just routes to power for the ambitious.

[Dangerous Dave]

If the conflict is about resources, why are the targets people?

A war fighting for territory is performed with a completely different strategy.

This is just their jihad.
Exactly which terror act are you talking about?

[gettin2dizzy]

What really annoys me is the current government, these towelhead muppets are apparently trying to change our way of life ... so rather than just ignoring them, they use it as an excuse for more liberty-robbing laws and ideas. Gah.

:lol:
Exactly which terror act are you talking about?
Any bombing of a building, car, street or any hostage situation. They're not acts of violence looking at gaining land. They're simply unforgiving terrorist acts in the name of their space-god.

[yorkie_chris]

Actually most of it stems back to Isreal-Palestine conflict, which is actually a conflict over land... notably the land stolen by Isreal. The whole "kill the west" thing comes from USA supporting Isreal. So yes it is mostly over land.

[Dangerous Dave]

Actually most of it stems back to Isreal-Palestine conflict, which is actually a conflict over land... notably the land stolen by Isreal. The whole "kill the west" thing comes from USA supporting Isreal. So yes it is mostly over land.
+ 1, we have also been supporting one side too.

Look at Afghan, we supplied weapons for them to fight the Russians and gave promises to help rebuild there country, what did we do when the Russians packed up and went home? We abandoned them! How would Britain of coped if the Americans abandoned us after WWII, and how would we have felt?

They're simply unforgiving terrorist acts in the name of their space-god.
They are not doing it for there so called god, the religious mix up everyone seems to get is the fact they are asking there god to forgive them.

[yorkie_chris]

Well they got freebie weapons thrown in. And an extremist government set up for them... f##king bright move that one CIA...

[Dangerous Dave]

Well they got freebie weapons thrown in. And an extremist government set up for them... f##king bright move that one CIA...
Not to mention British training... :(

[gettin2dizzy]

But even with Palestine; it's a thin veil (or should that be burkha...) for what is really men brainwashed with religious intolerance.

It's a shame we can't distance ourselves from the orchestrator that is Saudi.

[zsv650]

israel palestine is a newer conflict the whole problem goes back hundreds of years all utterly pointless using religion as an excuse for mindless violence.

[yorkie_chris]

Nah you're talking b0llocks there.

If Jews came round your house and chucked you out, would you or would you not be moderately f##ked off?

[Dangerous Dave]

Nah you're talking b0llocks there.
Sorry got lost, who is?

[yorkie_chris]

G2D

[gettin2dizzy]

Nah you're talking b0llocks there.

If Jews came round your house and chucked you out, would you or would you not be moderately f##ked off?That's a century-old conflict.
I'm talking about the current barrage of young Islamic men making martyrs of themselves elsewhere.

Besides, in Palestine they withdrew about 3 years ago, and it's only Hamas who have escalated the situation again.

[yorkie_chris]

Withdrawn from 1967 positions maybe, doesn't solve the problems from long before that.

Anyway on that score I don't know, maybe brainwashed by the old guard of PLO type preachers?

It's not like they're a serious force anyway, and it's only our governments quest for power that makes us think they're worth worrying about.

[Biker Biggles]

Who withdrew from Palestine?Last time I looked Israel was still very much there,and taking up most of it.

These conflicts are about haves and have nots.We in the West tend to be the haves,and Third World "terrorists" (often Muslim but not always)tend to be the have nots.They are looking to take what we have (rightly or wrongly)and we try to defend it(rightly or wrongly)Twas ever thus and always will be.
Religion is a useful tool for galvanising people with similar interests into action and providing a sort of simple rationale for what they are doing.Far better to be doing Gods work than just murdering people you dont know eh?
Again twas ever thus.

[Davido]

Kill the rag heads.

They kicked my dog.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

I think I'm with G2D on this one. Seems to me that if all the international Islamic terrorist nut jobs came from Palestine where it could be argued they have genuine grievances perhaps it would be understandable. But the worst of them come from Pakistan.

[454697819]

we need a big **** of army with some big **** of guns and an no **** attitude...


oh.. didnt we try that?

[Dangerous Dave]

oh.. didnt we try that?
Don't get me started about the pathetic leadership and command of Afghan.

[gettin2dizzy]

I don't condone any action in the Palestine conflict. But that's old news, and entirely separate from the nonsensical martyrdom prevalent elsewhere.

Pakistan has so far managed to keep it's image pretty clean of the whole affair. Yet the Islamic extremists are nearly always trained there, and eventually flee there, whilst funded by the Saudis.

I often wonder how it would affect the Taliban's funding if we legalised and controlled marijuana and heroin. It'd take the majority of their income away in an instant!

[Davido]

PIRATE DVDs FUND TERRORISM!

FACT!

[yorkie_chris]

Don't get me started about the pathetic leadership and command of Afghan.

Seems like a pretty stupid place to fight over. Especially considering the Afghans historic penchant for combat.

[stewie]

Funny how when a bunch of hindu,s massacre a load of muslims it hardly makes the news but when its the other way round.....

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Funny how when a bunch of hindu,s massacre a load of muslims it hardly makes the news but when its the other way round.....

It wasn't the other way around - Muslims were massacring westerners.

[stewie]

It wasn't the other way around - Muslims were massacring westerners.
What I meant was, if muslims are killed, well who cares, but if its someone else, well that matters, see we,ve got guys on here who are muslims, but we,ve here before I reckon I suppose.

[madness]

What we need to remember is that western countries - Britain, USA, France, Belgium, Holland etc, etc, have essentially invaded other countries, killed, tortured, stole etc, etc. You can't blame third world countries for hating the west. Also in the past the christian religion has hunted and murdered non conformists.
There are a lot of evil people in the world and I think that many of them do use religion and politics to justify their evil acts.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

What I meant was, if muslims are killed, well who cares, but if its someone else, well that matters, see we,ve got guys on here who are muslims, but we,ve here before I reckon I suppose.

I know what you meant, but you're missing the point.

A bunch of violent lunatics deliberately targeted and killed people from the UK and US. Saying 'well this only got any media time because the perpetrators were muslim', is ridiculous. If they were Hindu, this would have had just as much air time.

[600+]

can we pls not confuse Jews (people believing in Judaism) with Israelis!!

I'll leave you to continue your debate

[stewie]

I know what you meant, but you're missing the point.

A bunch of violent lunatics deliberately targeted and killed people from the UK and US. Saying 'well this only got any media time because the perpetrators were muslim', is ridiculous. If they were Hindu, this would have had just as much air time.
Yeah I know what you,re saying but I honestly dont beleive they actively went after westerners, I think they were pakistani,s who went after Indians and killed whoever they could, whoever got in the way really, sad thing of course was the fact that possibly quite a few innocent muslims, jews, christians etc.. died because of there actions, thats the sad part.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Yeah I know what you,re saying but I honestly dont beleive they actively went after westerners, I think they were pakistani,s who went after Indians and killed whoever they could, whoever got in the way really, sad thing of course was the fact that possibly quite a few innocent muslims, jews, christians etc.. died because of there actions, thats the sad part.

I heard on the radio they were specifically targeting UK and US citizens.

[yorkie_chris]

It makes strategic sense if you want to hurt india though, what better way to reduce income from tourism than to slaughter tourists. Killing indians to make whatever political statement is all well and good but lets face it there are a lot of indians.

[stewie]

I heard on the radio they were specifically targeting UK and US citizens.
Tbh Ive heard it myself, but with a death toll now reaching 195 I would bet that the vast majority were just ordinary people going about there buisness. It,ll happen again of course, could be germany next time or new zealand, mass murderers are mass murderers whatever you call em.

[Dangerous Dave]

I heard on the radio they were specifically targeting UK and US citizens.
:smt092 How many people here work in the intelligence services, are in the armed forces and serviced in confrontations of this manor, or are you all listening to the news and believing every word?

Stop focusing on unconfirmed reports about the terrorist incident in India, targets went into the buildings and opened fire on everybody. The did not aim for UK or US packages specifically, if they did the foreign death toll would be a lot lower and the package death toll would be a lot higher given the amount in those locations! One person out of hundreds who have escaped said they were looking for western tourists, one person! If you look into the while India incident you will notice they are not actually holding hostages, people have barricaded themselves in to rooms and the are inaccessible from the targets and the Commandos.

It makes strategic sense if you want to hurt india though, what better way to reduce income from tourism than to slaughter tourists.
It is working isn't it, flights and holiday packages have been cancelled and foreign nationals are fleeing the country.

What we need to remember is that western countries - Britain, USA, France, Belgium, Holland etc, etc, have essentially invaded other countries, killed, tortured, stole etc, etc. You can't blame third world countries for hating the west.
The west has used and abused everybody, we only have an interest in what serves us and when that is gone we walk away.

Seems like a pretty stupid place to fight over. Especially considering the Afghans historic penchant for combat.
Afghan is a war we will never win, the primary aim is to remove the Taliban from power and yet we make no advancements and gain no new ground for any tactical advantage. It has been like this for years now. We have no position of safety, this is something the Taliban have.

[yorkie_chris]

And they've been fighting all comers for the last few hundred years, and they're pretty well holed up in the mountains, and they have no particular objectives other than to make a nuisance of themselves untill the occupying power can no longer project force or loses interest.

Bad idea fighting there.

[Kinvig]

other religions (including the other Judo-Christians) must be destroyed along with their followers and all non-believers are 'infidel'
[/rant]

In the 70's/80s etc the media led us all to believe that the russians thought westerners were all decadent, imperialist swines etc.

Now the media has us believnig that muslims think we're infidels.


I know a few muslims & they're good people. They don't go around shouting, "burn the evil westerner!". I would have noticed.

Still, it sells papers. Brain wash me, tell me what to think. And what my opinions are.

[Kinvig]

What we need to remember is that western countries - Britain, USA, France, Belgium, Holland etc, etc, have essentially invaded other countries, killed, tortured, stole etc, etc. You can't blame third world countries for hating the west. Also in the past the christian religion has hunted and murdered non conformists.
There are a lot of evil people in the world and I think that many of them do use religion and politics to justify their evil acts.


+1

[Dangerous Dave]

And they've been fighting all comers for the last few hundred years, and they're pretty well holed up in the mountains, and they have no particular objectives other than to make a nuisance of themselves untill the occupying power can no longer project force or loses interest.

Bad idea fighting there.
Spot on, and having done the cave runs I can tell you it is the scariest thing I have ever had to do. No room to use your rifle....

[yorkie_chris]

In the 70's/80s etc the media led us all to believe that the russians thought westerners were all decadent, imperialist swines etc.

Because that's what the soviets were telling their subjects. Who knows what they actually thought.

[Kinvig]

I heard on the radio they were specifically targeting UK and US citizens.

"One Briton, Andreas Liveras, was also killed. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7757031.stm

Your media lied to you again!

[SV-net]

What if they had blown up all the banks call centres we would be at a complet standstill here now!

I dont want to lower this too far but what a situation where you deliberately turn your guns on innocent unarmed everyday folk. What excuse is there that could possibly start to justify this activity. NONE.

[yorkie_chris]

What if they had blown up all the banks call centres we would be at a complet standstill here now!

Nah f##k off I'd be well impressed if the nobends would stop ringing me trying to sell me stuff. Slaughter away.

[Dangerous Dave]

I dont want to lower this too far but what a situation where you deliberately turn your guns on innocent unarmed everyday folk. What excuse is there that could possibly start to justify this activity. NONE.
Britain it self had done it for years, look at the former British Empire which we didn't get by being nice. We robbed them of their assets and then abandoned them, an eye for an eye maybe?

The religious confusion comes from the press, terrorists pray and ask their god to forgive them and bless them, there god doesn't tell them to do it.

[gettin2dizzy]

The religious confusion comes from the press, terrorists pray and ask their god to forgive them and bless them, there god doesn't tell them to do it.
Both christian and islamic scriptures mention their respective 'holy wars'.

Remember the crusades?

[stewie]

Both christian and islamic scriptures mention their respective 'holy wars'.

Remember the crusades?
I remember seeing something about the crusades on the discovery channel a while ago, seems our christian forebears thought it acceptable to eat non christian babies if supplies were running low whilst on the crusades, and this was taken fron accounts by the crusaders themselves, the west has raped and pillaged countries of their resouces for years and we wonder why they hate us ?

[zsv650]

I remember seeing something about the crusades on the discovery channel a while ago, seems our christian forebears thought it acceptable to eat non christian babies if supplies were running low whilst on the crusades, and this was taken fron accounts by the crusaders themselves, the west has raped and pillaged countries of their resouces for years and we wonder why they hate us ?
thats very one sided they wernt exactly angels themselves:confused:

[stewie]

thats very one sided they wernt exactly angels themselves:confused:
Fair point, all Im suggesting is that we are getting a little of what we dished out.

[zsv650]

Fair point, all Im suggesting is that we are getting a little of what we dished out.
hunderds of years ago and we didnt start it then.

[gettin2dizzy]

I remember seeing something about the crusades on the discovery channel a while ago, seems our christian forebears thought it acceptable to eat non christian babies if supplies were running low whilst on the crusades, and this was taken fron accounts by the crusaders themselves, the west has raped and pillaged countries of their resouces for years and we wonder why they hate us ?
The west? Have a look where the crusades were ;)

It's another desert religion

[stewie]

The west? Have a look where the crusades were ;)

It's another desert religion
wasnt it us invading the holy land ? isnt christianity originally an eastern religion ?

[zsv650]

wasnt it us invading the holy land ? isnt christianity originally an eastern religion ?
nope it was once home to all religions then one thought it had right more than anyone and took it then it started :(

[stewie]

nope it was once home to all religions then one thought it had right more than anyone and took it then it started :(
Well Im an agnostic atheist anyway so Ill give you that one ;)

[zsv650]

i dont believe in religion just stories people take to seriously but thats a different story.

[gettin2dizzy]

i dont believe in religion just stories people take to seriously but thats a different story.
Or punctuation evidently ;)

[zsv650]

Or punctuation evidently ;)
my built in spellcheckers of for it's yearly service at the mo :smt019:D

[jimmy__riddle]

I remember seeing something about the crusades on the discovery channel a while ago, seems our christian forebears thought it acceptable to eat non christian babies if supplies were running low whilst on the crusades, and this was taken fron accounts by the crusaders themselves, the west has raped and pillaged countries of their resouces for years and we wonder why they hate us ?

not really an excuse for terrorism though.

Im pretty sure theres lots of people who have survived their homes being destroyed and burnt to the ground etc in WW2, but I dont see many of them suicide bombing berlin.

[slark01]

There is NO excuse for terrorism!
The people who do it are either mentally unstable or just love violence and mayhem.
Religion is irrelevent as everyone can see that terrorism has nothing to do with it.
The Qua 'ran can be interpreted in many ways, and is basically a guide on how to live your life nothing more.
Muslims are not the only people that have fanatics. There are plenty of christians, hindu's etc, that are fanatical enough to kill.

[Baph]

What if they had blown up all the banks call centres we would be at a complet standstill here now!

Now that I'd probably help fund... JOKE! Sheesh!

I dont want to lower this too far but what a situation where you deliberately turn your guns on innocent unarmed everyday folk. What excuse is there that could possibly start to justify this activity. NONE.
Greed.
I remember seeing something about the crusades on the discovery channel a while ago, seems our christian forebears thought it acceptable to eat non christian babies if supplies were running low whilst on the crusades, and this was taken fron accounts by the crusaders themselves, the west has raped and pillaged countries of their resouces for years and we wonder why they hate us ?

wasnt it us invading the holy land ? isnt christianity originally an eastern religion ?

nope it was once home to all religions then one thought it had right more than anyone and took it then it started :(

The Crusades, was about land. First & foremost. The Crusaders themselves were nothing more than mercenaries (very good ones at that). Initially, the King of France wanted a secure route to send money back & forth to the "holy land" - this is where the Crusaders came in.

Eventually, the King of France decided that they were too greedy, so branded them "religious heretics" and outlawed them. Religion used for persecution. Hmm.

Anyhow, back to the topic...

I'm with Dangerous Dave. As soon as I heard this on the news, my sole thought was "I'm glad they haven't tried to pretend this is Al Qu'eda directly, not their M.O." But I suppose if you say they were "Muslim terrorists" the mind of the average person will assume Al Qu'eda.

Shame about the deaths, but it's more about internal politics than anything else. I'd be surprised to see this type of attack in another country.

[Davido]

Or punctuation evidently ;)

You missed a full stop.

[stewie]

not really an excuse for terrorism though.

Im pretty sure theres lots of people who have survived their homes being destroyed and burnt to the ground etc in WW2, but I dont see many of them suicide bombing berlin.
Yeah, of course its not an excuse for terrorism,but people who carrry out these attacks work on a different set of moral standards than the rest of us and will use any excuse as way of inflicting pain and misery.

[northwind]

Not to drag this down further, but Islam came into existence long after Judaism and Christianity using translated texts from both but has decided that all other religions (including the other Judo-Christians) must be destroyed along with their followers and all non-believers are 'infidel' DESPITE BELIEVING IN THE SAME GOD!
[/rant]

First part is right. Rest is complete nonsense. The Qur'an specifically states that Jews and Christians (and Zoroastrians) are "People of the Book" and not to be considered enemies. From this point of view Islam's actually quite a liberal religion, there's huge acceptance of the religions that have gone before them. Christians and Jews (among others) who live their lives devoutly get the same treatment in the afterlife as muslims, no other religion does that as far as I'm aware. Christianity on the other hand says "You shall have no other gods before me".

(the reason is basically, marketing. Islam came on the scene in a melting pot of cultures where other religions were already strong, so it could only thrive by accomodating them...)

A wee example for you of how this stuff gets misinterpreted and twisted. One of the most famous quotes that you see from the Qur'an, used to suggest that Islam is an intolerant religion, is "And slay them wherever ye find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out" (them being all infidels, and usualyl implied to also mean all christians)

But here's the full quote:

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors. And slay them wherever ye find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith. But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevails justice and faith in God; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression"

Little bit different. "God Loves not transgressors" "oppression is worse than slaugher", "If they fight you, slay them" "if they cease, let there be no hostility".

Not going to say it's just the west that misquotes and twists the Qur'an of course, all the tricks and misquotes we use get used just the same by today's jihadist revisionists.

[gettin2dizzy]

Feel free to teach this to some muslims then.

Imams are teaching hate every day in the UK. It's widely known about, yet no one does anything about it.

[stewie]

Feel free to teach this to some muslims then.

Imams are teaching hate every day in the UK. It's widely known about, yet no one does anything about it.
thats a bit of over exaggeration dont you think ?

[northwind]

Yup, and yet of the almost 2 million muslims in the UK, not very many are extremists. So what does that tell you?

As for this particular outrage, only an idiot thinks you can boil India vs Pakistan down to Muslim vs Everyone Else. It'd be like saying that an Irish terrorists was only bombing the mainland because they're a catholic and they hate everyone else.

[gettin2dizzy]

thats a bit of over exaggeration dont you think ?
Not really. When the 'extremists' are known within the Islamic communities it is up to them to contact the authorities. Until the islamic public take part in bringing down the loons, then they have a part to play in their ideals. People have brought to light the massive hate-preaching going on in specific mosques across the country, yet it's not being tackled for fear of offence.
Yup, and yet of the almost 2 million muslims in the UK, not very many are extremists. So what does that tell you?

As for this particular outrage, only an idiot thinks you can boil India vs Pakistan down to Muslim vs Everyone Else. It'd be like saying that an Irish terrorists was only bombing the mainland because they're a catholic and they hate everyone else.
No. But you'd be an 'idiot' not to associate the recent spate of terrorist attacks with Islam.

The Irish accepted that in order to stop the violence, the public had a part to play. Irish men stopped in airports, searched in the street; all invasive procedures. But it was accepted as part of the peace process. There was no discriminative or racial card being played by them at all.

To even suggest that the whole Islamic community is trying to help solve this situation is absurd.

[slark01]

Just like fanatics some people just don't want to listen!

[northwind]

To even suggest that the whole Islamic community is trying to help solve this situation is absurd.

Yes, and so is implying that I said anything of the sort :rolleyes: And the irish didn't happily accept police actions either, despite what you're saying here.

You can't dissasociate the religious/political/cultural divide of Pakistan and India from Islam, or from Hinduism for that matter. But you can't blame it all on Islam, as much as you might like to.

[Dangerous Dave]

Remember the crusades?
I am not religious, it is all a load of BS voodoo in my eyes but one thing I know for sure is the Crusades was not a war of religion.

Feel free to teach this to some muslims then.

Imams are teaching hate every day in the UK. It's widely known about, yet no one does anything about it.
Maybe, but the teachings are coming from a person not from the religion. The next time I am called to an incident I'll give you a call, you can go in and interview the targets before we go in if you like.

There is NO excuse for terrorism!
+ 1, and Britain will will do its best to stop it happening on our soil again. As a warning, we will fight fire with fire!

Just like fanatics some people just don't want to listen!
+ 1

I have to go to work now, please do contiune the conversation and maybe somone will actually find a religious act of terrorism because so far none have been down to the guidance of religion.

[gettin2dizzy]

maybe somone will actually find a religious act of terrorism because so far none have been down to the guidance of religion.
Do you really think Islam has no input whatsoever in these terror actions?



Imagine some Eastern-Europeans started flooding in to the UK, with a form of Nazism as their religion. They start their own enclosed communities, shunning any tolerance of anyone who doesn't agree with their beliefs and have an outright refusal to cooperate with British law.
Their sermons consist of hate-preaching against the non believers and the British; only furthering this by sending their sons to hate-camps in their homeland where they get trained to kill civilians.
Genital mutilation is rife, and their women expected to be neither seen nor heard, whilst enslaved to older men from their communes in their home country.

Would we tolerate any of this? Or would we set up a place in parliament for them, provide massive fiscal support throwing grants their way, and allow them to spread their word as they wished? Would we accept their beliefs, then house and clothe them?

Are we just afraid of being branded racist to confront the huge problem of our home-grown Islamic terrorists?

Or maybe it's only people like myself, who find it mind boggling that people can still have either racist or sexist views; who are willing to speak out, for fear of being branded racist.

Yes, the majority of muslims want a peaceful life. But what stops us from addressing the aggressive fundamentalist sects?

[yorkie_chris]

Yes, the majority of muslims want a peaceful life. But what stops us from addressing the aggressive fundamentalist sects?

The problem isn't religion, it's hand-wringing liberals with no spine.

Simple phrase of "oh, you don't like it ... well f##k off then" which will never be spoken by a politician as doing the right thing costs votes.

[gettin2dizzy]

The problem isn't religion, it's hand-wringing liberals with no spine.

Simple phrase of "oh, you don't like it ... well f##k off then" which will never be spoken by a politician as doing the right thing costs votes.
Yeah, exactly. Yet they're happy to send in counter terrorism officers to search a mans house, and lock him up for 9 hours simply because he exposed their failures.

Utterly spineless.

[pencil shavings]

Right, Im not Muslim, but Im going to have to stand up for the MAJORITY of non-violent, peaceful Muslims.

About to start massive simplifications

The Quran (not Koran, thats a persons name) is a book that is fundamnetaly different to the Bible and the Torah and any other book that has ever been writen. This is becasue it is the word of God directly as prophosised by Mahammed, not a collection of stories, those are recorded in the Sharia.

The probelm with this is that God, as in all monolithic religions, has many faces. This includes tolerance and intolerance, violence and peace, promotion and repression of interlectual discovery etc. This is over come by Christianty by have an old testiment (an eye for an eye) which was then replaced by the new testiment (turn the other cheak)

Islam does not have this luxuary and the result is the Quran is unclear, there are even passages in it that state that they are unclear, if they wanted to be clear, God would have made them clear. Therefore there will always be conflict within Islam (you can see this by the Sunni/ Shiite split over)

Ok, on to terrorism. Firstly Jihad. Who knows what it meens? Holy War? no, im afriad that is wrong. It translates to strugle.
there are two forms of Jihad, one Greater Jihad, the other minor Jihad. The Greater Jihad refers to the internal struggle that takes place within the soul of every Muslim, and it is infact a duty of every Muslim. This strugle is overcoming personal demons of lust, hate, gread etc in order to lead a moral and virtuious life. So you can see it is ilogical to expect Muslims not to practice this greater Jihad.
The Minor Jihad on the other hand is the violent defence of the faith, and the only time that war is permisable under Islam. However, it is explictly stated that when conducting a minor jihad you cannot harm women or children or non-combantants as well as inflicting damage on the infrastructre. In other parts of the Quarn it again explicitly states that suiside is forbiden.

THEREFORE it stands to reason that a suicide bomber cannot be acting on behalf of Islam.

Next I would like to touch on Fundamentalism, which has since the 9/11 attacks, has taken on a derogatory slant. It simply is an umbrella term for the inplimentation of the law according to Islam, and a return to fundamental Islam. This doesnt meen killing everyone that isnt Muslim. Islamism is another term that is overlapping with fundamentalism and is simply the political movement of Islam. I could go into alot more detail here about how Islam and politics are inseparable, but I wont, as Im sure most people have stoped reading now.

Finally, I read somewhere on the thread that terroism is inherently wrong, or somthing along those lines.

I would like to raise my hand and stand up for terroism. Hear me out before you judge.

Cast your mind back a few years, South Africa, aparthid, and the ANC. The ANC was an illegal and terrorist organisation, they were denied political legality by the South African government. They were ILLEGAL therefore they could not partake in any democratic process (much in the same way that the Muslim Brotherhood is banned from partaking is Egypts 'democratic' elections. Is this topic genuinly interest you, have a read about the history of the MB, it is from them where this contempory Islamic fundamentalism stemed from in 1939 IIRC)
Because of thier illegal status, they had to resort to other tactics to attempt to overthow the rasist and oppressive South African government. Nelson Mandela was the founder and leader of the ANCs terrorist wing. I am currently writing my disertation on this topic and would be more than willing to engage in a proper debate with anyone about the chance the ANC had of gaining power without the use of terrorism, which I think is practically none, therefore, in this case, terrorism was vital and necessary in the overthrow of a rasist and oppresive regime.

therefore it is not sencible to denounce terrorism, which is fundamentaly just a tactic of battle/war.


All I can say to sumerise is if you want to have an informed opinion, please do some reading and not take everything from the media. I know this is a media artical, but it highlights the issue so please read it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/nov/14/syria-iraq-daily-mail

thank you for reading if you did, im now off to watch MOTD and will face the storm when I return! ;)

[northwind]

Imagine some Eastern-Europeans started flooding in to the UK, with a form of Nazism as their religion. They start their own enclosed communities, shunning any tolerance of anyone who doesn't agree with their beliefs and have an outright refusal to cooperate with British law.
Their sermons consist of hate-preaching against the non believers and the British; only furthering this by sending their sons to hate-camps in their homeland where they get trained to kill civilians.
Genital mutilation is rife, and their women expected to be neither seen nor heard, whilst enslaved to older men from their communes in their home country.

Would we tolerate any of this? Or would we set up a place in parliament for them, provide massive fiscal support throwing grants their way, and allow them to spread their word as they wished? Would we accept their beliefs, then house and clothe them?

Are we just afraid of being branded racist to confront the huge problem of our home-grown Islamic terrorists?


If you actually think that's in any way a useful analogue for british islam, there's no point in continuing to discuss this.

[yorkie_chris]

See I enjoyed reading that post, I found it informative, interesting and carries the tone that if you wanted to you could back it up by reference to some respected academic or historical source... and then you go and spoil it all by linking to a guardian article :-P

[Flamin_Squirrel]

See I enjoyed reading that post, I found it informative, interesting and carries the tone that if you wanted to you could back it up by reference to some respected academic or historical source... and then you go and spoil it all by linking to a guardian article :-P

Eheh, so true!

If you actually think that's in any way a useful analogue for british islam, there's no point in continuing to discuss this.

Because those things should be viewed as cultural factors, not religious ones, I guess? Makes sense.

[gettin2dizzy]

Right, Im not Muslim, but Im going to have to stand up for the MAJORITY of non-violent, peaceful Muslims.

About to start massive simplifications

The Quran (not Koran, thats a persons name) is a book that is fundamnetaly different to the Bible and the Torah and any other book that has ever been writen. This is becasue it is the word of God directly as prophosised by Mahammed, not a collection of stories, those are recorded in the Sharia.

The probelm with this is that God, as in all monolithic religions, has many faces. This includes tolerance and intolerance, violence and peace, promotion and repression of interlectual discovery etc. This is over come by Christianty by have an old testiment (an eye for an eye) which was then replaced by the new testiment (turn the other cheak)

Islam does not have this luxuary and the result is the Quran is unclear, there are even passages in it that state that they are unclear, if they wanted to be clear, God would have made them clear. Therefore there will always be conflict within Islam (you can see this by the Sunni/ Shiite split over)

Ok, on to terrorism. Firstly Jihad. Who knows what it meens? Holy War? no, im afriad that is wrong. It translates to strugle.
there are two forms of Jihad, one Greater Jihad, the other minor Jihad. The Greater Jihad refers to the internal struggle that takes place within the soul of every Muslim, and it is infact a duty of every Muslim. This strugle is overcoming personal demons of lust, hate, gread etc in order to lead a moral and virtuious life. So you can see it is ilogical to expect Muslims not to practice this greater Jihad.
The Minor Jihad on the other hand is the violent defence of the faith, and the only time that war is permisable under Islam. However, it is explictly stated that when conducting a minor jihad you cannot harm women or children or non-combantants as well as inflicting damage on the infrastructre. In other parts of the Quarn it again explicitly states that suiside is forbiden.

THEREFORE it stands to reason that a suicide bomber cannot be acting on behalf of Islam.

Next I would like to touch on Fundamentalism, which has since the 9/11 attacks, has taken on a derogatory slant. It simply is an umbrella term for the inplimentation of the law according to Islam, and a return to fundamental Islam. This doesnt meen killing everyone that isnt Muslim. Islamism is another term that is overlapping with fundamentalism and is simply the political movement of Islam. I could go into alot more detail here about how Islam and politics are inseparable, but I wont, as Im sure most people have stoped reading now.

Good points there :thumbsup: But whilst I write incriminating Islam, don't assume that by association I see Christianity as innocent. As far as it goes; the first testament is about as brutal as a book can get (before any Christian asks me where I get my morals from; I ask them to please read their beloved scriptures first before commenting).

You argue that the Islamic terrorists are not performing their acts of terrorism in the name of Islam; why are they killing people in the name of Allah then?

Even the latest attack has been tracked down to links with Al-Qaeda already. Surprise surprise, with Saudi money.


Finally, I read somewhere on the thread that terroism is inherently wrong, or somthing along those lines.

I would like to raise my hand and stand up for terroism. Hear me out before you judge.

Cast your mind back a few years, South Africa, aparthid, and the ANC. The ANC was an illegal and terrorist organisation, they were denied political legality by the South African government. They were ILLEGAL therefore they could not partake in any democratic process (much in the same way that the Muslim Brotherhood is banned from partaking is Egypts 'democratic' elections. Is this topic genuinly interest you, have a read about the history of the MB, it is from them where this contempory Islamic fundamentalism stemed from in 1939 IIRC)
Because of thier illegal status, they had to resort to other tactics to attempt to overthow the rasist and oppressive South African government. Nelson Mandela was the founder and leader of the ANCs terrorist wing. I am currently writing my disertation on this topic and would be more than willing to engage in a proper debate with anyone about the chance the ANC had of gaining power without the use of terrorism, which I think is practically none, therefore, in this case, terrorism was vital and necessary in the overthrow of a rasist and oppresive regime.

therefore it is not sencible to denounce terrorism, which is fundamentaly just a tactic of battle/war.


All I can say to sumerise is if you want to have an informed opinion, please do some reading and not take everything from the media. I know this is a media artical, but it highlights the issue so please read it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/nov/14/syria-iraq-daily-mail

thank you for reading if you did, im now off to watch MOTD and will face the storm when I return! ;)

Regardless of Mandela (I don't condone a lot of his actions either); how do the actions of killing innocent people going about their days, going to raise any kind of respect for their cause? One reason Islam has such a tarnished imagine is precisely because of these extremists fighting this ridiculous, bloodthirsty battle.


If you actually think that's in any way a useful analogue for british islam, there's no point in continuing to discuss this.

Good argument.

[Baph]

Maybe, but the teachings are coming from a person not from the religion.
That right there folks, is the point. Read it carefully, twice if you must.

Religion is used as the excuse, when I can't think of a single battle actually fought for religious reasons. Due to the ambiguity in every religion I can think of, the teachings that are used, are the interpretation of someone, someone whom has twisted the religious texts to fit their own ends.


Do you really think Islam has no input whatsoever in these terror actions?

Islam itself, I believe, has no input whatsoever. Some people calling themselves "muslims" are the ones orchestrating the terror attacks.


Because of thier illegal status, they had to resort to other tactics to attempt to overthow the rasist and oppressive South African government. Nelson Mandela was the founder and leader of the ANCs terrorist wing. I am currently writing my disertation on this topic and would be more than willing to engage in a proper debate with anyone about the chance the ANC had of gaining power without the use of terrorism, which I think is practically none, therefore, in this case, terrorism was vital and necessary in the overthrow of a rasist and oppresive regime.


As a good friend of mine will have you believe, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter! But then, he's biased, as he was a freedom fighter in Brazil, aged 8. :shock:

[yorkie_chris]

See now south africa is even hungrier and poorer than before... good move.

[Baph]

You argue that the Islamic terrorists are not performing their acts of terrorism in the name of Islam; why are they killing people in the name of Allah then?

Even the latest attack has been tracked down to links with Al-Qaeda already. Surprise surprise, with Saudi money.


Again with blaming Islam. No, they do it in the name of what they believe to be Islam. Much in the same way Christians act because that's how they believe the bible says to act.

It's not because either book says so, it's because they've been told to by someone else that's read the book!

As for Al-Qaeda financing the attack - that wouldn't surprise me in the least. They shell out a little money & take non of the risk. It'll be chalked down to them anyway, so they might as well give a hand.

[gettin2dizzy]

Again with blaming Islam. No, they do it in the name of what they believe to be Islam. Much in the same way Christians act because that's how they believe the bible says to act.

It's not because either book says so, it's because they've been told to by someone else that's read the book!

As for Al-Qaeda financing the attack - that wouldn't surprise me in the least. They shell out a little money & take non of the risk. It'll be chalked down to them anyway, so they might as well give a hand.
I'm not questioning Islam as a whole (in this thread at least). I'm questioning why choose to ignore the extremists on our home turf. It's impossible to ignore Islam as a factor in the rise of these brutal idiots.

Religion has always been one man's interpretation of a fairy tale.

[slark01]

Religion has always been one man's interpretation of a fairy tale.
LOL, actually agree with that one!

[Baph]

I'm not questioning Islam as a whole (in this thread at least). I'm questioning why choose to ignore the extremists on our home turf.

EU Regulations. ;) Can't "persecute" people of a certain colour as we're part of the EU now.

Anyone gets stopped in the street & forced into a search (of any nature), and they'd be screaming a breech of human rights. Sad fact.

[northwind]

Good argument.

The only argument possible, when your own is so absurd. The example you put up was either irrelevant (if you don't believe it's an analogue for british islam) or completely wrong (if you do believe it's an analogue for british islam). Either way, it's not a basis for a discussion.

[gettin2dizzy]

The only argument possible, when your own is so absurd. The example you put up was either irrelevant (if you don't believe it's an analogue for british islam) or completely wrong (if you do believe it's an analogue for british islam). Either way, it's not a basis for a discussion.
Maybe not as a representative model for every Muslim in Britain. But you can't deny that doesn't exist in Britain today. Women are treated worse than animals, and Imams preach hate towards the UK.

[slark01]

It is true that some people say that they have interpreted the Qu'ran in such a way that woman are classed as basically slaves, there are however many more who have not and see their wives and children as equals. Again it has come down to the individual and not the religion!

[northwind]

Anyone gets stopped in the street & forced into a search (of any nature), and they'd be screaming a breech of human rights. Sad fact.

Random stop and search has always been used as a tool for harrassment, that's why it was never legal in scotland. "Suspects matching your description" was pretty much code for "We don't like blacks" for years. Has it actually been outlawed? Not before time if it has but as far as I can tell the terrorism act 2000 still applies.

[pencil shavings]

See now south africa is even hungrier and poorer than before... good move.

unfortunatly true. This opens up the a whole new debate though, is it better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a fool satisfied? (if you forgive the poor use of the phrase)

That right there folks, is the point. Read it carefully, twice if you must.

Religion is used as the excuse


As a good friend of mine will have you believe, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter! But then, he's biased, as he was a freedom fighter in Brazil, aged 8. :shock:

Exactly the point I forgot to make in my origional post. Religion is not the greatest casuse of war, it is the greatest excuse for war.

Good points there :thumbsup: But whilst I write incriminating Islam, don't assume that by association I see Christianity as innocent. As far as it goes; the first testament is about as brutal as a book can get (before any Christian asks me where I get my morals from; I ask them to please read their beloved scriptures first before commenting).

You argue that the Islamic terrorists are not performing their acts of terrorism in the name of Islam; why are they killing people in the name of Allah then?



In responce to your 1st point, yes I totally agree the bible is a violent and graphic book. But the whole point of the new testiment is that is over rides the old testiment. So, while the old testiment promotes violence, it is over ruled by the new testiment which doest. I tried to make this point in my origional post, prehaps I didnt make it clearly enough?

In responce to the 2nd point, I dont really see what you meen. Islam is the religion that believes in God (Allah is God in Arabic). so if you are a Muslim, your actions should be to the glorfication of Allah. If you contradict Allahs teaching as recited by the prophet mohammed, you are not acting in the name of Islam, or in the name of your God, Allah.
So anyone conducting indiscriminate killing in the name of Islam of Allah is not acting in their name, merly using it as a guise to hide behind. Sadam Hussein is a perfect example of this, using Islam to further his political power following the Iranian Islamic revolution in 1979. Ironically the first use of Islam by Sadam Hussein was to stad up to the radical revolutionary Isalm that was threating the stablity of the region. This was suported by many states, notably Arabic states that prefered their corrupt version of the Islamic state (which is define in great detail by the Quran) including Saudi Arabia. Ironically he then sighted Jihad against the Iranians in 1990 for the start of the Gulf War, once again achieveing a popular suport amongst his Arab neighbours, which largly went ignored in the west.

See I enjoyed reading that post, I found it informative, interesting and carries the tone that if you wanted to you could back it up by reference to some respected academic or historical source... and then you go and spoil it all by linking to a guardian article :-P

Thank you. and you are correct, I have just finished writing an essay on the topic of the threat of Islamic fundamentalism to regional and internation security and have a big pile of books next to me. some of which (notably the post 9/11 publications) have such a bias against fundamentalism and even go as far to deny the existance of moderate islamic fundamentalism.

the gardian link was just a quick example of not to trust what the media say, ironic I know, but thought it was a useful link.

[northwind]

Maybe not as a representative model for every Muslim in Britain. But you can't deny that doesn't exist in Britain today. Women are treated worse than animals, and Imams preach hate towards the UK.

Of course I don't deny it, for a minority- but your example wasn't for the minority, was it?

[yorkie_chris]

Here's my take on it. All pigs eating out of the same trough.

[gettin2dizzy]

Of course I don't deny it, for a minority- but your example wasn't for the minority, was it?
It was, yes. This whole thread has been about the radical fundamentalist muslims.

As for how far those examples stretch?
Far deeper than any of us care to believe.

[northwind]

Here's my take on it. All pigs eating out of the same trough.

Can't argue with that. Though i've got a soft spot for buddhists, they're fairly cool ;) The old 8-fold path is a good model for life I reckon.

[northwind]

It was, yes.

No it wasn't- because of this: "Or would we set up a place in parliament for them, provide massive fiscal support throwing grants their way, and allow them to spread their word as they wished? Would we accept their beliefs, then house and clothe them?"

These are all things provided for all muslims, not for a minority, and certainly not specifically for the minority you claim you were speaking of. You also spoke about "enclosed communtities", so tarring entire muslim communities with the extremist brush. So, you're not just speaking of the minority are you? Or if you were, you were stating that you believe the majority should be treated differently because of the actions of the minority.

[gettin2dizzy]

No it wasn't- because of this: "Or would we set up a place in parliament for them, provide massive fiscal support throwing grants their way, and allow them to spread their word as they wished? Would we accept their beliefs, then house and clothe them?"

These are all things provided for all muslims, not for a minority, and certainly not specifically for the minority you claim you were speaking of. You also spoke about "enclosed communtities", so tarring entire muslim communities with the extremist brush. So, you're not just speaking of the minority are you? Or if you were, you were stating that you believe the majority should be treated differently because of the actions of the minority.
As long as the Muslim community continue to show a lack of responsibility from the extremists, then yes they should be tarred with the same brush. Multiculturalism can be great; but it requires integration and mutual respect from both parties.

[Baph]

As long as the Muslim community continue to show a lack of responsibility from the extremists, then yes they should be tarred with the same brush.

The same could be argued for Christian's. How would the authorities go about establishing who was Christian and who wasn't based purely on sight?

Actually, how should the authorities go about deciding who is Muslim & who isn't, based purely on sight? I'd love to hear a fool-proof way.

EDIT: I'm atheist BTW.

[pencil shavings]

As long as the Muslim community continue to show a lack of responsibility from the extremists, then yes they should be tarred with the same brush. Multiculturalism can be great; but it requires integration and mutual respect from both parties.

Muslims have from day one, well lets say since 9/11, spoken out against the use of terrorism because it is almost always going to be un-Islamic in nature. you just dont hear about it because it dosent make good news.
above and beyond that its like asking for me to acept responciblity for your actions just because we both have a britsih passport. dosent really have any locaical or philosophical merit IMO.