View Full Version : SHARP helmet ratings
Well this has been discussed before, and there has been a recent thread going on another forum.
I've felt that the single "star" rating doesn't give much information as to how the helmet performed, and would like to see more of the detailed results. This was brought to the fore when the rating for my Schuberth S1 (the Pro version anyway) was announced as a mighty...............2 stars, practically the worst of anything.
I e-mailed Schuberth asking if they had any explanation and could they reassure me to buy another Schuberth. No reply kind of means a "no" in my book.
Anyway, another forum member posted this from someone who had visited the SHARP stand at the NEC, which in my view contains as much info as the entire SHARP site.
Update. I visited the Sharp stand at the NEC and talked to their chief test engineer while an article in this weeks comic covered similar ground.
Firstly the results. The two star Schuberth uses foam inserts of variable density. The inserts have to bear the full force of any impact individually and end up being overwhelmed, passing more of the shock into the helmet. Not good. One of the two star Schuberths was on display, looking very sorry for itself post test. Not all Schuberths are built this way, they have four star rated helmets that use a single insert. The two star Arai's use a single insert of variable depth. Arai believe that the side of a helmet takes less damage in a collision and use less foam around the ear area, making their helmets lighter and more comfortable. Government research shows that impacts are evenly distributed around the helmet in road crashes and make no allowance for this weak area, thus the low score for some Arai helmets.
I had all of my questions answered in a simple and straightforward manner, including the big one about low scores. The engineer confirmed what Arai claim- their helmets exceed legal safety requirements by a considerable margin. However, they have weak spots where a fifty pound thermoplastic lid will offer more protection. Put another way, if you take a hit to the temple or crown (both common on the racetrack) an Arai offers unparalled protection. Unfortunately, if you smack the side of your head an Arai wouldn't be your best choice and even more unfortunately the available data shows an even distribution of impacts in road accidents. The government take on all of this is simple- reduce road fatalities. The Sharp team believe that things are a little more complex, but think that a rating system can only improve safety. All their data is available to manufacturers, including detailed test results. More tellingly, the helmet manufacturers were consulted throughout the programmes set up.
Where next? The government has no plans to make Sharp a legal requirement. The team constantly review both the test process and research into accidents and fatalities. They are willing to change the tests if compelling new data appears to indicate they should. Existing tests, including the American Snell, don't compare in terms of helmet coverage and variety of impacts. The team welcome feedback from individuals as well as manufacturers. The engineer I spoke to was at pains to point out that there are things they don't test, such as comfort, fit, likelyhood of misting or noise and that a comfortable helmet can prevent you having an accident in the first place. At the same time he was convinced that these tests are the most comprehensive independant safety rating in the world.
It was suggested that as many people as possible should add a request for more info on the SHARP website, so if you're interested then please do. If we all ask, it might just happen.
If you do a bit more research you'll find that the SHARP people misinterpreted the data they were given regarding distribution of impacts on helmet shells. In effect they got their maths wrong when working out the percentages of impacts in certain areas.
I won't take the blindest bit of notice of their results until they rectify the test proceedure to fall in line with what the original crash statistics showed. In other words, they need to go and buy a new £3-99 calculator, redo their sums and then start retesting helmets in the correct areas.
Yes, indeed the more you look into it the worse it gets. Found this page http://www.carolenash.com/insidebikes/bike-news/more-sharp-helmet-tests.htm where it says
The latest round of test results have seen lids like the Marushin Tiger, which retails for around £100, receive a 5 star rating, whilst a Schuberth S1 Pro, which costs £400, is rated with just two stars.
insidebikes asked the Schuberth UK importer, Henry Rivers-Fletcher at Oxford Products to comment;
“This is difficult because it comes across as sour grapes, but we - along with other importers and manufacturers - have some problems with the SHARP testing regime. Basically they use a range of helmet forms, a kind of dummy metal head if you like, which they place the helmets on when doing impact tests.
Because the Schuberth S1 Pro in an L size, does NOT fit the SHARP L size head form, they place it onto an M sized form, and then boost the impact speeds by 10-15%. The reason that SHARP give for this is that the M sized head form is lighter than an L sized one, so they say that gives Schuberth some type of advantage. Obviously we disagree.
The Schuberth S1 Pro in an L is slightly smaller than the industry average, it also has extra sound insulation materials inside the shell, which is why an L sized metal head form will not fit. It will fit an M sized head form, but I don’t see how a perfect fit offers any real advantage.
We feel that adding an extra 10-15% on the impact speeds is just bad science, we want a level playing field when it comes to helmet testing.”
Now if those claims about the testing method are correct, then the whole thing is a fiasco.
It's someone's law that says once you open a can of worms, the only way to get all the worms back in is with a bigger can. This appears to be one of those cans.
northwind
10-12-08, 09:07 PM
Oh dear.
One thing I saw in one of the various mags, was that the stat work used to justify the all-round impact argument made no differentiation for impact severity. IE, a small chip on the side of the helmet was given the same significance as a massive dent in the forehead, since both show an impact. The suggestion was that the main impact points identified by Arai among others from their own research don't take any less impacts, but they take more major ones in initial impacts, while sides take more light knocks in subsequent impacts. If that's true- I don't know if it is- then it would seriously undermine the methodology.
Dangerous Dave
11-12-08, 12:10 PM
If you do a bit more research you'll find that the SHARP people misinterpreted the data they were given regarding distribution of impacts on helmet shells. In effect they got their maths wrong when working out the percentages of impacts in certain areas.
I won't take the blindest bit of notice of their results until they rectify the test proceedure to fall in line with what the original crash statistics showed. In other words, they need to go and buy a new £3-99 calculator, redo their sums and then start retesting helmets in the correct areas.
+ 1, the recent results are a load of rubbish and have already proven to be inaccurate. Now the people doing the SHARP tests are redoing it and learning where they went wrong.
SoulKiss
11-12-08, 12:20 PM
Well for a while now my brain/eyes have been pre-editing "SHARP helmet ratings" as "CARP helmet ratings"
All Chinese whispers and witch hunts. I certainly wouldn't buy a lid that scored less than 4.
yorkie_chris
11-12-08, 10:02 PM
Why not? The high performance lids are just as good, just in different ways. It's pot luck which one you need.
The decent helmet makers have put a lot of effort into making lids work, SHARP peoples have been about for about 25 minutes and don't know half as much. As evidenced by them going on dodgy statistics.
Why not? The high performance lids are just as good, just in different ways. It's pot luck which one you need.
The decent helmet makers have put a lot of effort into making lids work, SHARP peoples have been about for about 25 minutes and don't know half as much. As evidenced by them going on dodgy statistics.
Well i would actually, given that i really choose a lid on how good it looks! Just saying all this SHARP tabloid frenzy is just a load of nonsense, they were always onto a loser. They didnt give these large greedy corporates the good press they are accustomed to and so were thrown to the tabloid dogs and punished for it. All these stories about totally flawed testing methodologies and an entire department somehow missing an error in a calc - load of b@lls i reckon. Bike press is just the same as normal press - they need to fill pages and if there aint the news around to do it......
northwind
11-12-08, 10:59 PM
I don't think Arai are one of the biggest helmet manufacturers, though- that probably comes down to the re-branders, whose cheap lids often get good marks. Schuberth certainly aren't a big manufacturer.
yorkie_chris
11-12-08, 11:01 PM
Bike press is just the same as normal press - they need to fill pages and if there aint the news around to do it......
...MCN makes some up!
mister c
12-12-08, 09:08 AM
All Chinese whispers and witch hunts. I certainly wouldn't buy a lid that scored less than 4.
I wear Takeuchi helmets that score quite low in the tests. They are cheap, comfortable, & I also did my own impact test in January. I can catagorically state that it withstood a 50 - 60mph impact into a wooden fence & a couple of trees. I will continue to wear them as it saved my life.
Dangerous Dave
12-12-08, 10:30 AM
All these stories about totally flawed testing methodologies and an entire department somehow missing an error in a calc - load of b@lls i reckon. Bike press is just the same as normal press - they need to fill pages and if there aint the news around to do it......
MCN are famous for making things up, but the fact remains that SHARP admitted to misinterpreting the findings and other organisations (not manufacturers) have similar results which differ completely to SHARPs.
but the fact remains that SHARP admitted to misinterpreting the findings.
Do you have a linky?
All Chinese whispers and witch hunts. I certainly wouldn't buy a lid that scored less than 4.
You have a lot to learn.
I wear Takeuchi helmets that score quite low in the tests. They are cheap, comfortable, & I also did my own impact test in January. I can catagorically state that it withstood a 50 - 60mph impact into a wooden fence & a couple of trees. I will continue to wear them as it saved my life.
If you can't find a Takachi to replace any future helmets, but a Nitro or a G-Mac or a Syko or any one of a number of identical lids - they are all the same thing with different branding and graphics.
I was a Nitro rep for a few years, I know these things.
Btw, I won't put anything but an Arai on my head, but I do happen to think Nitros and their clones are the best value for money lids on the market.
MCN are famous for making things up, but the fact remains that SHARP admitted to misinterpreting the findings and other organisations (not manufacturers) have similar results which differ completely to SHARPs.
+1 - I've seen and read the official reports that concluded that SHARP got their precentage sums wrong and decreed that testing on the side of a helmet was a priority. SHARP have admitted as such and are revising all future tests.
In short, ignore anything SHARP have done to date as it's flawed.
Btw, I won't put anything but an Arai on my head.
Fer fecks sake DONT DROP IT ON ITS SIDE, the thing'd go off like a bomb!!!! Get the kids away from it now!
i wouldnt put a arai on my head if you paid me personally not from the sharp tests just the damn things are the worst fit for me possible it'll be a shark next as i think their pretty much the be all and end all in my head size just got to either wear this nitro out first or drop it.
AndyBrad
12-12-08, 11:30 PM
Well tbh we know that sharp have got off to a bad start and to eb fair they were destined to. Any new findings are allways treaded with suspision and righly so. Ok these guys have made a cockup but at least its a start. I mean this testing could and hopefully will help in getting people into better quality lids that may save lives. This can only be a good thing and for this reason alone i think we should be encouraging the sharp tests.
Personaly i would go for a named lid like aria or shoei these guys have been doing this for a few years so lets hope they know what they are doing. Although who really knows :)
Dangerous Dave
12-12-08, 11:34 PM
I mean this testing could and hopefully will help in getting people into better quality lids that may save lives. This can only be a good thing and for this reason alone i think we should be encouraging the sharp tests.
I agree, but I would not encourage anyone to buy based on the incorrect facts and figures of SHARP's last published findings.
i wouldnt put a arai on my head if you paid me personally not from the sharp tests just the damn things are the worst fit for me possible it'll be a shark next as i think their pretty much the be all and end all in my head size just got to either wear this nitro out first or drop it.
They don't suit everybody, but Arai have a number of different shaped inner liners now, so usually one from the range will suit your head shape. Luckily for me it's the more affordable Condor and Chaser that fit me perfectly, so I have one of each - Condor for road, Chaser for track.
yorkie_chris
13-12-08, 01:56 AM
i wouldnt put a arai on my head if you paid me personally not from the sharp tests just the damn things are the worst fit for me possible it'll be a shark next as i think their pretty much the be all and end all in my head size just got to either wear this nitro out first or drop it.
So they don't fit you. That doesn't make them a bad lid.
mister c
13-12-08, 08:27 AM
If you can't find a Takachi to replace any future helmets, but a Nitro or a G-Mac or a Syko or any one of a number of identical lids - they are all the same thing with different branding and graphics.
I was a Nitro rep for a few years, I know these things.
Btw, I won't put anything but an Arai on my head, but I do happen to think Nitros and their clones are the best value for money lids on the market.
Tried the G-Mac & wasn't impressed. I know it was cheap, but all of the inner just came away from the outer, so it was used as a football & then thrown in the bin :)
Tried the G-Mac & wasn't impressed. I know it was cheap, but all of the inner just came away from the outer, so it was used as a football & then thrown in the bin :)
They are exactly the same helmets as Nitros and Takachis. Made in the same factory in China for the same UK importer, just rebranded with different graphics and Takachi are sold through a different distributor. Nitro and G-Mac are actually sold by the same firm, simply so they can get more of their helmets on shelves in places where there are two shops close together who want a budget range of lids - one gets Nitro, the other gets G-Mac and there's no apparent conflict between the two shops.
There's no physical difference between all three makes aside from the names and colours.
Like I said, I used to work for Nitro/G-Mac as a sales rep, I know these things.
So they don't fit you. That doesn't make them a bad lid.
well it does for me :smt019 how come i dont struggle with the shark lids :-D
Dangerous Dave
13-12-08, 12:18 PM
well it does for me :smt019 how come i dont struggle with the shark lids :-D
Because the are a different shape!
well it does for me :smt019 how come i dont struggle with the shark lids :-D
You have a strange French shaped head.
HTH
You have a strange French shaped head.
HTH
oui oui jadore le francais :smt040:takeabow:
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