the right to die

[keithd]

on sky ch 243 now

a man has travelled to Switzerland so he can die in a dignified way. he suffers(ed) from motor neurone disease and wishes to not put his loved ones thru anymore pain andsuffering. just caught sky news report showing him taking a lethal dose of barbituates which induces coma then death 30 minutes later. I gotta admit the moment he finished drinking the drugs then his wife telling him she loved him was fcking emotional!!

is it right tho? orgers discuss if you will

[Speedy Claire]

I didn`t see the film and for me I suppose it`s a bit hypocritical to say it but yes I do support assisted suicide. I always thought that as a nurse my goal would be to preserve life at all costs but since working in palliative care my outlook has changed.

If I`m nursing somebody with cancer I can control most symptoms that my patient may encounter as part of the "dying process" ie. pain, nausea, agitation but diseases such as Huntingtons Chorea or Motor Neurone are a different matter altogether. I`ve never witnessed such suffering! and to me the worst part of it is that the patient is mentally alert and as such fully aware of what is going on. If you take Motor Neurone for example it is such an awful death.... the patient will basically drown on their own saliva and that is such a terrible thing to have to both endure and witness.

You commented on how emotional the moment was when his wife told him how much she loved him.... I see that all the time in my job and I`m priviledged to be there and be part of that but it breaks my heart.

I believe everybody has the right to die with dignity and for that reason I support assisted suicide as long as the person is fully aware of what they are consenting to and is mentally able to make the decision and has the agreement of his/her family. No person should have to endure terminal suffering that is unremitting, unbearable, or prolonged. When the burdens of life outweigh the benefits because of uncontrollable pain, severe psychological suffering, loss of dignity, or loss of quality of life as judged by the patient, and when the circumstances are not remediable, the dying person should be able to ask for and receive help in assisted suicide.

[DarrenSV650S]

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k164/DarrenStewartTait/Suicide_Booth.jpg

[CoolGirl]

....
I believe everybody has the right to die with dignity and for that reason I support assisted suicide as long as the person is fully aware of what they are consenting to and is mentally able to make the decision and has the agreement of his/her family. No person should have to endure terminal suffering that is unremitting, unbearable, or prolonged. When the burdens of life outweigh the benefits because of uncontrollable pain, severe psychological suffering, loss of dignity, or loss of quality of life as judged by the patient, and when the circumstances are not remediable, the dying person should be able to ask for and receive help in assisted suicide.

+1

it's perfectly acceptable for people to have their pets put down in order to bring an end to their suffering. So why all the fuss when a human chooses the same route for themselves? I hope I never end up dehabilitated and suffering, but if I did I'd like to be able to go quickly and with dignity. For those left behind - I'd die one way or another, it would just be a bit sooner and probably in a less distressing way.

[Ed]

I didn't watch the programme. I didn't want to, I didn't want to see somebody die. I watched my father's and my father in law's last moments, and that was quite enough. In both cases they died of cancer. Their suffering was hideous. I so wanted them to die to end it all but then at the same time I didn't.

The decision made by Mr Ewart was intensely personal and harrowing. The law is in a terrible state of confusion. Assisting a suicide is an offence, yet the Director of Public Prosecutions personally took the decision not to prosecute the parents in the last high-profile case. I think that that is right. Prosecutions should happen only if there is some other motive.

I believe that an individual should be able to decide when to die. But people choosing to end their own lives should think very carefully about the effects on others - we have debated this on here and many have suffered terribly because someone they love has taken this action.

I have told my wife that I don't wish to be resuscitated if there is no hope of something approaching a normal life. I wouldn't want to be a burden on anyone and I would want her to be able to move on.

[Neeja]

Personally, I'm pro-suicide in all cases, not just in the case of terminally ill people. If people find their life genuinely too hard to bear, then I think they have a right to anything that may alleviate this.

And yes, I'm fully aware of the consequences to the family of a suicide-victim, as the mother of one of my close friends killed herself a few years back, and I had to watch the family go through the suffering that it brought. It still doesn't change my stance.

[ArtyLady]

I absolutely believe in the right to end your own life rather than die a painful, distressing, tortuous, undignified death. I also understand why the lad who was paralysed in the rugby accident, chose to end his life.

We dont let animals go through it so why should we treat ourselves any differently? :(

[fizzwheel]

I believe everybody has the right to die with dignity and for that reason I support assisted suicide as long as the person is fully aware of what they are consenting to and is mentally able to make the decision and has the agreement of his/her family.

I was going to write something, but you summed up how I feel.

I really dont see what the problem is with assisted suicide, we should be supporting these people and their families, not making them feel like criminals...

[CoolGirl]

Personally, I'm pro-suicide in all cases, not just in the case of terminally ill people. If people find their life genuinely too hard to bear, then I think they have a right to anything that may alleviate this.

And yes, I'm fully aware of the consequences to the family of a suicide-victim, as the mother of one of my close friends killed herself a few years back, and I had to watch the family go through the suffering that it brought. It still doesn't change my stance.

I think the issue being disucssed here, though, is the availability of choice for the individual in relation to significantly declined health where death is an inevitability. It doesn't help to compare the two as they are very different matters.

[keithd]

I'm wondering whether I asked the right question... I dont expect much of a debate as to whether assisted suicide should be legalised, more of a stimulating question would be whether its voyeuristic and the documentary is in bad taste and undignified...

[northwind]

If it was just entertainment, that's bad taste. If it gets people thinking, that's not a bad thing... Or so I reckon.

This is going to be a bigger thing in the future as well, because our ability to keep people alive is still getting better but that often just means we keep them on the edge of death for longer. It's not life that's sacred, it's living. Keeping people alive despite what they want, in terrible conditions, that's not respecting life at all.

I hate the basic contradiction with slow degenerative diseases- that you can take your own life early, when you still have the ability to do so, but once you're no longer capable (or free) to do so, you're trapped in the worsening situation- you can only deal with it yourself at a stage too early, and then it's too late.

I know it's not quite the same issue, but the UK already has advance directives/living wills, which a person can use to dictate future medical treatment- how does that overlap with right to die issues? For instance, could you instruct that you don't want to be fed if you suffer X disability? That'd doom you to a fairly nasty death but would it hold up? Or is that not considered medical care?

[Jayneflakes]

I am a firm believer in the right to die. I had major surgery in 2006 and due to family problems only my sister cared. For those brief moments when I was bleeding to death, it was in her power to allow or refuse me a blood transfusion.

Fortunately I did not need one, but according to my sister and the Nurse holding the failed stitches together, I was adamant that I was fine and wanted to go out! Maybe Assisted Suicide is something that needs careful thought, planning and several signatures before commencing!

I would hate to be any more of a burden on my sister and partner than I have been and for me to know that when the pain gets too awful I could in theory stop it for good, I would be tempted.

If stories like this can be covered by journalists who show respect and dignity, then it gets the facts out into circulation and gets people like us talking. Surely that is a good thing, although I doubt that every one in the world is as well educated and articulate as a member of the Org.

Good topic to discuss in my opinion.

For this reason Keith D for President!

[madness]

I think that at some stage we've all thought about what we would personally do in a similar situation. I personally would not want to live like that and therefore support assisted suicide. But it needs to be legalised and controlled. As for making a documentary? I didn't see it so I can't comment on whether it was bad taste entertainment or not. It is a subject that needs debate in this country and anything that starts the debate must be seen as good.

[K]

I didn't see the programme either, but from your relating of it Mr D, and the following discussion here - I think it was a good thing to have been made.
If done in a sympathetic manner that highlights an important issue which is often clouded by misinformation, emotion and contradictory legal issues - surely it can only be a good thing to broadcast...

... that said it is also something that could so easily be sensationalised or derogatised (is that even a word? Well - it is now). By the sounds of it, this was neither of those so top marks to the producers.

[Viney]

I didnt see the programme, but read a bit about it. Should you be able to get help ending your life, Yes i do. Should it have been on TV? Difficult one. Its an issue that needs bringing to the forum, but is slightly voyeristic, but we all have remote controls. Also we see thousands of peole 'die' in films, is it any different to that in the eyes of TV land?

[Foey]

I support assisted suicide as long as the person is fully aware of what they are consenting to and is mentally able to make the decision and has the agreement of his/her family.

Sorry but i disagree with having to have the agreement of the family, why should your family have the right to stop you putting an end to a miserable or painfull existence, they are not in agony, you are, as much as they may not want to be some people can be selfish in those sort of circumstances & can get blinkered into only seeing a life alone & they want to hold on to the last breath of a loved one instead of doing the kind thing for them, it should be up to the patient alone to make the decision, ok by all means this should be with the consent of at least two doctors to keep it all legal.
Looking at it from the relatives side also, i wouldn't want to consent to a loved one comitting voluntary suicide & then finding out i received a big payout in their will, it would always be in my mind that others fingers were pointing at me.


On the subject of should it have been on TV, why not, obviously the patient had given his consent & any family he had must have consented also, i assume the TV sensors had passed the programme & as has been said before we all have TV remotes to change channels if we wish & the TV books would have given a description of the content of the programme in the listing, this subject has already cropped up in on of the TV soaps anyway, i think it was holby city, one of the doctors & his wife went abroad so that she could die, yes it is possibly a touchy subject to screen but i know if it was any of my family i would want them to have the right to die with dignity.

[Alpinestarhero]

Is it right that one should have the right to end their life? Yes. Granted, there are things to take into consideration; is that person emotionaly stable enough to make a well-informed desicion (i.e. they are not upset and just wish to kill themselves, but they have spent many months ill, only getting worse, and have had time to explore options of prolonging their life only to find nothing is working)?

I know that if I was facing a life of being in a vegative state, I would not want to live. I would pay £3k to go abroad and die under my own terms, by my own hand, rather than let my body degrade before me and consume all that I ever was.

A death on my own terms, that's what I want. I struggle with the issue's of death - why it has to happen, all that. But I know that one day my time will come, and I hope that I'll go peacefully in my sleep.

As for the program, I didnt watch it, but I read an article in the Independant newspaper yesterday; it was very moving; I hope my friends didnt catch me wiping away my tears. That guy was brave you know, and so is his wife for helping him out like that. Thats true love, what they had (and still have) right there.

Matt

[Speedy Claire]

Sorry but i disagree with having to have the agreement of the family, why should your family have the right to stop you putting an end to a miserable or painfull existence, they are not in agony, you are, as much as they may not want to be some people can be selfish in those sort of circumstances & can get blinkered into only seeing a life alone & they want to hold on to the last breath of a loved one instead of doing the kind thing for them, it should be up to the patient alone to make the decision, ok by all means this should be with the consent of at least two doctors to keep it all legal.
Looking at it from the relatives side also, i wouldn't want to consent to a loved one comitting voluntary suicide & then finding out i received a big payout in their will, it would always be in my mind that others fingers were pointing at me.


On the subject of should it have been on TV, why not, obviously the patient had given his consent & any family he had must have consented also, i assume the TV sensors had passed the programme & as has been said before we all have TV remotes to change channels if we wish & the TV books would have given a description of the content of the programme in the listing, this subject has already cropped up in on of the TV soaps anyway, i think it was holby city, one of the doctors & his wife went abroad so that she could die, yes it is possibly a touchy subject to screen but i know if it was any of my family i would want them to have the right to die with dignity.

The reason I feel that family consent would be best is because of the "after affects". A persons decision to end their life in this manner could leave the family experiencing guilt and could also cause them to question whether they did the right thing. By discussing it openly with the family prior to the act itself then I`d hope that the family would understand the rationale behind the persons decision to end their life and would hopefully alleviate any guilt or indecision that might be felt.

Also the family are going to need to support each other following the assisted suicide as it comes to the attention of the media. The family would all have to be in agreement with the act itself and show a "united front to the media.

In the case of assisted suicide then I would imagine that in most cases the persons partner or possibly several family members would be present at the time of death. The person should be allowed to die peacefully and with dignity knowing that the family members present are all in agreement with the chosen action. I think basically I`ve witnessed so many situations where families disagree and "fall out" with each other as a relatives final moments draw near. I`ve seen family members actually fighting each other because some want their loved ones suffering (or what they perceive as suffering) to stop and other family members want to keep them there for as long as possible. I`ve had to remove drugs from a patients home as relatives have threatened to administer huge doses of morphine etc. once I have left and I haven`t been able to risk that happening.

As for whether last nights film should have have been screened I have mixed feelings. I know that it was filmed by an award winning film maker and i`m sure that he would have portrayed Mr Ewerts death in a sensitive and compassionate manner. However I do feel that death is private and personal and not the subject for public viewing but I understand Mr Ewerts reasons for wanting his death to be screened. His wife said that her husband wanted viewers to understand that assisted suicide allowed him to die comfortably rather than enduring a long, drawn out and painful demise. The fact that it has been screened will also give viewers an insight into how assisted suicide would work if it is legalised in this country.

[Baph]

So why all the fuss when a human chooses the same route for themselves?

Personally, I'm pro-suicide in all cases, not just in the case of terminally ill people. If people find their life genuinely too hard to bear, then I think they have a right to anything that may alleviate this.

And yes, I'm fully aware of the consequences to the family of a suicide-victim, as the mother of one of my close friends killed herself a few years back, and I had to watch the family go through the suffering that it brought. It still doesn't change my stance.

I strongly disagree with all of the above. Having just put someone in the back of an ambulance due to paracetamol overdose, my feelings on the subject are quite raw.

I think the issue being disucssed here, though, is the availability of choice for the individual in relation to significantly declined health where death is an inevitability. It doesn't help to compare the two as they are very different matters.
+1 to most of that. Should someone be in extreme physical pain, and suffer a life worse than they could have because of that pain, they IMO, they should be free to choose to end that life. If they're just emotional, it's the chickens way out of not dealing with issues.

Is it right that one should have the right to end their life? Yes. Granted, there are things to take into consideration; is that person emotionaly stable enough to make a well-informed desicion (i.e. they are not upset and just wish to kill themselves, but they have spent many months ill, only getting worse, and have had time to explore options of prolonging their life only to find nothing is working)?


+1. Hence the anger.

[Odin]

I'm wondering whether I asked the right question... I dont expect much of a debate as to whether assisted suicide should be legalised, more of a stimulating question would be whether its voyeuristic and the documentary is in bad taste and undignified...


If you are a responsibly adult then it’s your choice to end your life. Ideally this is something that can be well planned so everyone gets the support and everything is paid for etc prior to the act. I don’t think it should be on the NHS though. I am sure it could be done at a similar cost as a funeral.

As for it being shown on TV....well it can’t be worse than and any ‘celebrity factor dancing island’ b*****s that on normally.

[Alpinestarhero]

I strongly disagree with all of the above. Having just put someone in the back of an ambulance due to paracetamol overdose, my feelings on the subject are quite raw.

I can understand this Baph; the subject of assisted suicide is a bit difficult for me aswell, given my cousin took his own life in what I feel was a bit of a "heat of the moment" thing. That was wrong, and I can't forgive for that, because other than his momentary feelings of general "feck the world", he was healthy, intelligent, able to work, everything. A complete waste of life.

Yet the guy on the program who chose to end his life did so after careful thought, much consultation with his wife, and I suspect with the swiss clinic. His illness was going to render him useless anyway (sorry to put it like that, but thats the gist of it I guess), which is no way to live. He may have ended up (will have eneded up) in a vegetive state, unable to move, unable to do anything for himself. And all the while, he could be laying there completly sound in mind, just thinking "god, end my life now".

Has anyone seen the metallica video for the song "one"? the guy ends up nodding in morse code to end his life after he lost all his limbs, he had no life left to live.

[keithd]

after seeing the 5 minute news clip i then turned over and caught the majority of the documentary itself...and whilst i was still saddened at the final few moments of the mans life, his wife saying "goodbye darling, i love you, have a peaceful journey and i'll see you again sometime..." got me as much the 2nd time as the 1st, i was almost pleased for the wife at the end. mr ewart was in so much pain, he was suffering terribly, he knew he was a massive burden to his wife and wanted her to be free as much as he wanted to be free of the burden of pain. i'm without doubt certain he did the right thing for him and his wife.

it was still horrible to watch however, i felt a certain degree of discomfort and intrusion as this most private of moments. i applaud their strength in their suffering and dignity shown on the programme, and hope that one day people do not have to travel to Switzerland to be assisted in dying "their way"

[Baph]

Yet the guy on the program who chose to end his life did so after careful thought, much consultation with his wife, and I suspect with the swiss clinic. His illness was going to render him useless anyway (sorry to put it like that, but thats the gist of it I guess), which is no way to live. He may have ended up (will have eneded up) in a vegetive state, unable to move, unable to do anything for himself. And all the while, he could be laying there completly sound in mind, just thinking "god, end my life now".


That, IMO, is completely understandable, and should be acceptable in this country. The other version, I have no sympathy for.

Suicide (when it's not caused by immense physical pain & suffering to the person wishing to die and all around them) is nothing short of selfish. Paracetamol also isn't the prettiest of ways to go either.

[Speedy Claire]

That, IMO, is completely understandable, and should be acceptable in this country. The other version, I have no sympathy for.

Suicide (when it's not caused by immense physical pain & suffering to the person wishing to die and all around them) is nothing short of selfish. Paracetamol also isn't the prettiest of ways to go either.


Agree with you Baph but I think we need to clarify that we`re talking about "assisted suicide" here as opposed to suicide per se.

Assisted suicide when typically someone suffering from an incurable illness or chronic intense pain intentionally kills him/herself with the help of another individual.

[RichT]

I didn't watch the documentary as I wasn't in at the time. I plan to catch it tonight on iPlayer.

My mum's partner has MND (they have been together for years but have never married) and the reality is, although tough, it is their decision. I agree with it only in the case of terminal illness where there is nothing left to try.

[madness]

If they're just emotional, it's the chickens way out of not dealing with issues.

I agree that the right to take your own life needs to be highly controlled and should not be granted to people who are not thinking clearly, but I disagree with the above comment intensely. I don't think that suicide is 'the chickens way out'. I'm not sure that the people you are refering to really want to succeed. I can personally remember sitting staring at a bottle of painkillers thoughts of the consequences running through my mind. Luckily the bottle ended up being smashed against the wall. If it was the chickens way out, I don't think that I would be here now and as happy and content as I am.

[Dangerous Dave]

I believe everybody has the right to die with dignity and for that reason I support assisted suicide as long as the person is fully aware of what they are consenting to and is mentally able to make the decision and has the agreement of his/her family. No person should have to endure terminal suffering that is unremitting, unbearable, or prolonged. When the burdens of life outweigh the benefits because of uncontrollable pain, severe psychological suffering, loss of dignity, or loss of quality of life as judged by the patient, and when the circumstances are not remediable, the dying person should be able to ask for and receive help in assisted suicide.
+ 1

[missyburd]

and to me the worst part of it is that the patient is mentally alert and as such fully aware of what is going on.
+1. This is by far the worst state to be in. My mother works with disabled people in a residential home with people as young as me. She talks about the residents and it's so upsetting, I don't know how she copes with it. Fully grown men who can't move anything but an eye or finger, those that cannot speak or make any sort of communication apart from blinking etc. and yet they're perfectly capable in mind just not body.

How many times must these people have that thought running through their heads, why am I doing this, what's the point? My mother coordinates activities (as well as caring for them) to keep them "occupied" and as far as I'm concerned she has the most important job in that place. And that's why she stays despite her getting paid a pittance for what she does, she is making that vital difference. It's such a difficult job and I respect her so much for doing it, she's very dedicated.

I've not asked her about the assisted suicide situation, I'm not sure how she'd see it being a devout Christian. I personally believe it is a person's right to say when and how they go, when in the situations mentioned above anyway. People have many risk-taking hobbies, even biking is considered one, and it is then that they are putting themselves in situations which essentially they cannot control, things can go wrong. So why the fuss about actually having some control over ending it?

I know that if I was facing a life of being in a vegative state, I would not want to live.

Exactly YC's view. In that situation however it would have to be in agreement with the family as they are the ones who essentially have to make the decision and if they don't like the idea then they won't make that decision.

[Stig]

My personal opinion is assisted suicide being illegal is wrong. Surely this is the most fundamental right of any given person if they wish to live or not. If they are not in a position to end their life themselves, then they should granted the assistance they need.

I think it was a brave move and the right move to show the film. It has brought the topic right out into the open. Hopefully it will now make a difference and gain support to have the current law over turned.

[Alpinestarhero]

Suicide (when it's not caused by immense physical pain & suffering to the person wishing to die and all around them) is nothing short of selfish. Paracetamol also isn't the prettiest of ways to go either.

I agree. My cousin hung himself, i beleive, so I suspect his death wasn't as ugly as that of a drug overdose.

Although try telling that to my nan, she found him. He was supposed to be going up to her house, he even rang her 20 mins previous to ask if she would be in so he didnt have to make a wasted trip

think i better go cool off.

[Alpinestarhero]

Exactly YC's view. In that situation however it would have to be in agreement with the family as they are the ones who essentially have to make the decision and if they don't like the idea then they won't make that decision.

I hope Maria will take control if anything were to happen; she knows exactly how I want to be treated in the event of me being in a vegetive state (and the same goes if I die, she knows I'm happy to give up all my organs and also my brain to medical research). I'm not sure my family know my wishes.

[yorkie_chris]

Fully grown men who can't move anything but an eye or finger,

That would be plenty for me, just be a dear and point the gun at my head for me would you.

[Ruffy]

The reason I feel that family consent would be best is because of the "after affects". A person's decision to end their life in this manner could leave the family experiencing guilt and could also cause them to question whether they did the right thing. By discussing it openly with the family prior to the act itself then I`d hope that the family would understand the rationale behind the persons decision to end their life and would hopefully alleviate any guilt or indecision that might be felt.

Unfortunately, some people will never understand. This is especially true with mental illness, rather than physical degeneration.

It must remain the individual's right to choose. IMHO, consent should not be required, but it is better if the remaining family is aware. It is the shock of losing someone suddenly that causes the worse grief. When you get time to consider how you are going to carry on, it is easier (but never easy) to deal with the actual loss.

Also the family are going to need to support each other following the assisted suicide as it comes to the attention of the media. The family would all have to be in agreement with the act itself and show a "united front to the media.
I think part of the point is that this shouldn't be such a big deal. There should be no need for media attention.

...I think basically I`ve witnessed so many situations where families disagree and "fall out" with each other as a relatives final moments draw near. I`ve seen family members actually fighting each other because some want their loved ones suffering (or what they perceive as suffering) to stop and other family members want to keep them there for as long as possible. ...
I think this reinforces my point above about getting consent.

I have some personal experience of this: I lost my dad suddenly (heart related) when I was 25, I lost my mum at 30 after a long illness (cancer). I now miss my dad more because I never had the chance to say goodbye. Even though my mum's final deterioration was quite quick, I remain convinced it may have been better to plan the end, rather than randomly wait for the inevitable conclusion without any measure of hope or certainty.

In my time, I have also had the misfortune to wake one night to find a loved one shaking, cradling an overdose quantity of their regular medicine, trying to figure out whether it would be better to go (depression, partly caused by the after effects of surgery that has left a physical infirmity, painful but now essentially static). On that occassion, I persuaded her against it but there are still many ongoing issues and, in dealing with those, we have both openly confessed that we sometimes wonder whether it would have been better if I'd slept through. Maybe there are circumstances where the best answer for those still alive might be to be left behind without the person but without the memories of the suffering?

I am pro assisted suicide, in principle. I believe there are circumstances where it is justifiable. Death will come to us all, eventually, so why can't we have some scope to influence when and how that might be?

Wow, this is unusually public for me, and not easy. If you have read this far, thank you. Like any important issue, please take time to think about it for yourselves.

[missyburd]

Wow, this is unusually public for me, and not easy. If you have read this far, thank you. Like any important issue, please take time to think about it for yourselves.

Thankyou for sharing, a moving read. Very sorry for your loss, never easy.

[slark01]

Yes it was.
Erm as for assisted suicide...it's difficult to agree but I understand that there are people who are suffering needlessly, so in the whole I would have to say "yes".

[Ed]

Ruffy - you've got guts mate, I am so moved by your openness and honesty.

[Speedy Claire]

Thankyou for sharing, a moving read. Very sorry for your loss, never easy.

+ 1 :grouphug:

[phil24_7]

I believe my life is my own to do with as I choose, even end it. It's my choice, nobody elses. That goes for every other individual on this earth.

I can't see the problem with the cases recently either as both cases happened outside of the UK (I think, though please correct me if I'm wrong) so no crime was committed in the UK. How can the CPS/police etc even bring a case to court??

[Ruffy]

Firstly, thanks to those who have responded so kindly to my post. Even though some time has passed since the events in question, your words of support are comforting. I just hope my views on the OP question didn't get lost in the personal stuff.I can't see the problem with the cases recently either as both cases happened outside of the UK (I think, though please correct me if I'm wrong) so no crime was committed in the UK. How can the CPS/police etc even bring a case to court??
I think it's probably something to do with helping to make arrangements whilst in the country. The intent whilst here is probably enough to fall foul of the current laws. Thankfully some common sense seems to be prevailing in the authorities.

[phil24_7]

But no crime was committed in the destination country! I can't honestly see how the UK legal system can come down on people who have committed NO crime in THIS country!

It is not illegal to intend to help someone to commit suicide as far as I am aware?!?!

I f**king hate this country's poor excuse for a legal system/government/parliment.

It is legal to smoke cannabis and pay for sex in Amsterdam so is it illegal for someone in this country to arrange a stag do to Amsterdam with the intent of doing these things???? I would hazard a guess that this would get thrown out of court if it ever got that far, so how is the suicide thing any different?

The mind boggles!

[Flamin_Squirrel]

But no crime was committed in the destination country! I can't honestly see how the UK legal system can come down on people who have committed NO crime in THIS country!

It is not illegal to intend to help someone to commit suicide as far as I am aware?!?!

I f**king hate this country's poor excuse for a legal system/government/parliment.

It is legal to smoke cannabis and pay for sex in Amsterdam so is it illegal for someone in this country to arrange a stag do to Amsterdam with the intent of doing these things???? I would hazard a guess that this would get thrown out of court if it ever got that far, so how is the suicide thing any different?

The mind boggles!

A crime WAS committed here. The law states you can't assist people to commit suicide, including helping them go abroad to do it. You may not agree with it, but that doesn't make it a poor law. There are laws against going abroad to have sex with children too, is that a poor excuse for a law as well?

[gettin2dizzy]

Voyeurism by the TV producers of course. But the person involved had nothing to gain from this, so obviously thought this a worthy cause.

Perhaps they saw this as an opportunity to bring this law-issue to the public attention (which it has), as we have a Government so incompetent, they look to the Daily Mail to make their policies.

I think you should be able to end your life if you so wish. After all, it's all within our grasp by way of train lines, cliffs and other pretty nasty ways to go. Why not give people some dignity in their last hours.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

I think you should be able to end your life if you so wish. After all, it's all within our grasp by way of train lines, cliffs and other pretty nasty ways to go. Why not give people some dignity in their last hours.

You could do those things if you were able bodied. For the people at the centre of this argument, their method of checking out would best be described as going over a cliff, but having someone push them as they can't do it themselves. This is why, rightly or wrongly, caution is being exercised.

[gettin2dizzy]

I think that to allow it, you need very strict guidelines, and someone competent to actually make the call. It's sad that these people in pain have to go through months of battling in court.

However, for the likes of MS sufferers; is it worth keeping them alive in case a new form of treatment comes out? (which it has...)

Tough call..

[Flamin_Squirrel]

I think that to allow it, you need very strict guidelines, and someone competent to actually make the call. It's sad that these people in pain have to go through months of battling in court.

However, for the likes of MS sufferers; is it worth keeping them alive in case a new form of treatment comes out? (which it has...)

Tough call..

As in many cases, and this is no exception, we're looking for the least worst solution. That's often the best you can hope for, especially with political policy.

Something that I find profoundly irritating is when we actually manage to find a good compromise, some idiot brings up a rare case where things didn't work out and proclaims it's an indictment of the whole system. Just look at the vigilante thread...

[phil24_7]

A crime WAS committed here. The law states you can't assist people to commit suicide, including helping them go abroad to do it. You may not agree with it, but that doesn't make it a poor law. There are laws against going abroad to have sex with children too, is that a poor excuse for a law as well?

Just saying, how can it be a crime to help someone go to a different country to NOT commit a crime??? Seems senile to me!

Is it not illegal to have sex with children in the majority of the world? (if not all? I'm not up on world laws) Or is it illegal for you to travel to Sweden and have sex with a 15 year old whom you met, where the age of consent is 15? (again, I'm not up on world laws)

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Just saying, how can it be a crime to help someone go to a different country to NOT commit a crime??? Seems senile to me!

](*,)

Because if we didn't we may as well have the same law as Holland etc and allow assisted suicide, because you could just go there to do it and there would be no consequences. I don't know how to explain it in any simpler terms.

[phil24_7]

You don't seem to get my point. It is perfectly legal to sleep with wh0res and smoke weed in Holland, which is why thousands of Brits go there each year. THIS IS NOT ILLEGAL. So why is it illegal to the help somebody travel to Switzerland??

[Flamin_Squirrel]

You don't seem to get my point. It is perfectly legal to sleep with wh0res and smoke weed in Holland, which is why thousands of Brits go there each year. THIS IS NOT ILLEGAL. So why is it illegal to the help somebody travel to Switzerland??

I do get your point, you just don't seem to understand mine.

An analogy for assisted suicide involving week isn't to go abroad to smoke drugs there, it's to smuggle them back to smoke them here.

[phil24_7]

No, cuz both of those things involve committing a crime in this country! The suicide is in another country that allows people to travel there to die!

[phil24_7]

I understand the fact that this country deems it to be illegal, I just don't understand how that can be true, as the country where the act takes place does not consider it to be illegal.

When on foreign soil, we are controlled and governed by their laws, not our own.

[gettin2dizzy]

I understand the fact that this country deems it to be illegal, I just don't understand how that can be true, as the country where the act takes place does not consider it to be illegal.

When on foreign soil, we are controlled and governed by their laws, not our own.
Yes, but by assisting the person to get to the suicide clinic; you are assisting their suicide.

[phil24_7]

I get that but realistically, they are just helping that person get to a destination, what that person does when there is their business!

[phil24_7]

Assisting their suicide is giving them the drugs, or tying the noose, not helping them travel!!

Just my 2p!

Gonna let it go now as this has driveled on for ten or so posts!!

[gettin2dizzy]

I get that but realistically, they are just helping that person get to a destination, what that person does when there is their business!
You can't have it both ways. You can't expect the courts to rule one way when they see a connection, and ignore the connection in another.
It's the law that sucks.

[phil24_7]

That's my point! The law is next to useless!