What if: You're on the tube & a policemarks man thinks you're a terrorist? Catch 22... [Archive] - Page 2 - SV650.org

tinpants

19-12-08, 10:45 AM

The terrorist act needs to be abolished - it causes more hassle than its worth to everyday UK citizens.

You have just GOT to be f*cking kidding me with that statement? Surely you don't REALLY think that? Or do you? Please tell me you don't think that.

Right then. There has been a lot of worthy discussion about the rights and wrongs of the Jean-Charles de Menezes case on here. Some of it complete bollox and some of it outright conjecture. The bottom line is that the Metropolitan Police were acting on the Intelligence received, the officers on the front line were doing their job. End of. Can you imagine the furore if they had decided to let him on the train and he had blown himself up? Its a hypothetical I know but its something that has to be thought about. I think that, in this case especially, the Police were in a "no-win " situation. Damned if they do, damned if they don't. Very few people on here are qualified to point fingers at the likes of DangerousDave and say " ooh you're in the Special Forces. You shouldn't do this or that and you certainly can't speak about this."
He's out there putting HIS life on the line for YOU, protecting this country and carrying out his sworn duty. That may sound a little jingoistic for some of the Guardianistas in Org-land and perhaps a little gung-ho. I for one whole-heartedly support Dave and his colleagues for doing a difficult job in not very nice circumstances. I've been there and done it myself. I know exactly what its like. Belfast and South Armagh in the late '80s and early '90s was NOT a fun place to be. Dave, hats off to you mate.

I suppose the nett result is that we're all human. Humans make mistakes. Unfortuneatly this mistake resulted in the death of an innocent party. Had he not run away, he would more than likely be alive today.

Kinvig

19-12-08, 10:57 AM

Calm down.

Right then. There has been a lot of worthy discussion about the rights and wrongs of the Jean-Charles de Menezes case on here. Some of it complete bollox and some of it outright conjecture.

You can't just say that without giving us examples - please do!!!

The bottom line is that the Metropolitan Police were acting on the Intelligence received, the officers on the front line were doing their job. End of. Can you imagine the furore if they had decided to let him on the train and he had blown himself up? Its a hypothetical I know but its something that has to be thought about.

The OP was to put you in the position of being on the tube with a police gun being pointed at you. What do you do? Previous police behavious tells us that they're going to shoot you no matter what you do. So what would you do - accept being wrongly killed or attempt to defend yourself/fight back/kill or be killed?!

I think that, in this case especially, the Police were in a "no-win " situation.

Menezes too.

MiniMatt

19-12-08, 10:59 AM

The terrorist act needs to be abolished - it causes more hassle than its worth to everyday UK citizens.

...

Make people responsible for their actions, no excuses about upbringing, deprivation etc and let the rest of us get on with our lives

Agreed, or substantially re-written. The criteria for detention is far too broad, the definition of terrorist vague and open to political manipulation.

But if you're not with us, you're against us. This bevy of draconian laws was all drafted post 9/11 in a climate of fear fostered and propogated by Western governments the world over who outwardly demonise third world dictatorships and totalitarian regimes whilst moving their own apparatus of government substantially toward that direction.

This next bit, I appreciate I'm reading a whole lot into your final sentence that may or may not be there - your final sentence suggests that your impression of where this has all come from is an overly liberal wooly agenda where people hug hoodies and let them off their errant behaviour because nobody loved them as a child.
I'd argue that the political machine is succesfully once more pulling the wool over your eyes - they got the draconian legislation through in the first place by fostering a climate of fear, pulling the "if you're not with us you're against us" line and "if you've nothing to hide you've nothing to fear". They now continue to maintain or strengthen an authoritarian grip by pointing the finger of blame at the wooly liberals - ergo we need even more draconian laws to protect us from this silly liberal notion of freedom.

I realise I've insulted your intelligence there somewhat SK - don't want to cause offence and as I say, I may have completely misread your post.

Yet In this thread alone you take every opertunity to let everyone know what you do and what you are aparantly a member of ;)

I'd drop it to be honest Kazbee :D On nearly every other internet forum you'd be completely right, near as damn it every other forum on the net has some bloke (normally either 12 year olds or socially retarded thirty somethings) claiming to be a ninja, a black belt (invariably followed by threats of "I'll beat you up in real life..."), a spaceman, a top gun pilot, a special forces operative or a spy. Most of these retards are fairly easily spotted after a few posts, they get over excited, keep ramping up their experiences, invariably begin to contradict earlier lies. This forum is suprisingly mature and remarkably free of such idiots, though we doubtless have a few pass through from time to time.

It's quite possible that DD is bluffing, and to be honest we'll probably never know. But then only a handful of people on this site have actually seen my SV, I keep telling everyone I've got one but no-one really knows for sure. DD, if he is bluffing has been remarkably consistent in his lie for some considerable time; his posts remain eloquent and insightful with reasonable grammer and spelling - something normal "I'm a ninja in real life" forumtards can never pull off for long. To be completely honest, it doesn't really make any difference to me or any of us if he is or he isn't, you never rely on the information given to you by some bloke on the internet; all I care about is that I can have a decent conversation with DD and most everybody here, we sure as hell don't agree on all things but we can still have an adult discussion. I don't really know who he is, he doesn't really know who I am - hell I could be his boss, a spotty 12 year old in Mississippi, or some wooly liberal called Matt in Cheltenham - it doesn't really matter so long as we can have a good natter :D

hovis

19-12-08, 11:04 AM

the Police were in a "no-win " situation. Damned if they do, damned if they don't. .

Menezes too.

not realy........... if he did not run away, he would probably still be alive,

neillfergie

19-12-08, 11:12 AM

Its important to remember that the officers who actually shot him were acting on intelligence given to them on the positive ID. The had little or no time to make a decision on whether or not to shoot. They would not have made this decision lightly. I'm assuming they identified themselves whilst perusing him into the station and he ran from them.

its a real tragedy someone innocent died in this case but had he been a suicide bomber the police would be hailed as heroes for preventing an explosion.

It was one of those fluke one in a million chances that he looked like a suicide bomber and acted like one that day.

Ps. as far as armed "trigger happy" police go I've lived in N Ireland all my life and the police are all armed with a handgun or somtimes a larger weapon. I have got used to seeing army units moving around armed with rifles and i have never seen one fire a shot or heard of someone shot by police. The guns are the absolute last line of defence / attack but i think its important to give them that option if it can be used in a responsible way.

remember "guns dont kill people, rappers do" GLC

Kinvig

19-12-08, 11:13 AM

not realy........... if he did not run away, he would probably still be alive,

He didn't run away! He was on the tube & they bear hugged him then shot him.

SoulKiss

19-12-08, 11:14 AM

You have just GOT to be f*cking kidding me with that statement? Surely you don't REALLY think that? Or do you? Please tell me you don't think that.

Right then. There has been a lot of worthy discussion about the rights and wrongs of the Jean-Charles de Menezes case on here. Some of it complete bollox and some of it outright conjecture. The bottom line is that the Metropolitan Police were acting on the Intelligence received, the officers on the front line were doing their job. End of. Can you imagine the furore if they had decided to let him on the train and he had blown himself up? Its a hypothetical I know but its something that has to be thought about. I think that, in this case especially, the Police were in a "no-win " situation. Damned if they do, damned if they don't. Very few people on here are qualified to point fingers at the likes of DangerousDave and say " ooh you're in the Special Forces. You shouldn't do this or that and you certainly can't speak about this."
He's out there putting HIS life on the line for YOU, protecting this country and carrying out his sworn duty. That may sound a little jingoistic for some of the Guardianistas in Org-land and perhaps a little gung-ho. I for one whole-heartedly support Dave and his colleagues for doing a difficult job in not very nice circumstances. I've been there and done it myself. I know exactly what its like. Belfast and South Armagh in the late '80s and early '90s was NOT a fun place to be. Dave, hats off to you mate.

I suppose the nett result is that we're all human. Humans make mistakes. Unfortuneatly this mistake resulted in the death of an innocent party. Had he not run away, he would more than likely be alive today.

You completely misunderstood my post.

Our freedom and liberty are restricted due to the Terrorist act on a daily basis - TSM was stopped on his bike on his way home from the Soho meet one night under it, less than half a Km from my house I would add.

There is too much power in the statment "We thought you were a terrorist".

Without the act, De Menezes would have been a criminal suspect, regarded to be an extreme danger to himself and others, and deadly force should be used.

I am sure that those powers exsisted during "The IRA years".

Remember those - when a bunch of terrorists that we actually knew the names and presumably the addresses of, sat over a small amount of water and plotted to blow up targets in the UK, the Bishopsgate bomb went off within half a mile of where I sit now, and then there was the shoplifting (well they lifted the Arndale Center about a foot off the ground).

No Terrorism act then and we felt as safe as we do now.

jimmy__riddle

19-12-08, 11:14 AM

if i was in their position and i was told by someone superior to me that the person i was following was positively ID'd as a terrorist, and they ran away then i would shoot them as well

SoulKiss

19-12-08, 11:17 AM

He didn't run away! He was on the tube & they bear hugged him then shot him.

TBH if you were hugged on the tube in public by Bear, you would want to be shot...... :smt051

fizzwheel

19-12-08, 11:20 AM

The OP was to put you in the position of being on the tube with a police gun being pointed at you. What do you do?

I'd do what I was told. I'm f*cked if I am arguing or debating the matter at hand when I have a gun being pointed at me.

Perhaps I'm over simplfying the situation though...

Kate Moss

19-12-08, 11:21 AM

I'd do what I was told. I'm f*cked if I am arguing or debating the matter at hand when I have a gun being pointed at me.

Perhaps I'm over simplfying the situation though...

+1

Flamin_Squirrel

19-12-08, 11:25 AM

You have just GOT to be f*cking kidding me with that statement? Surely you don't REALLY think that? Or do you? Please tell me you don't think that.

End of. Can you imagine the furore if they had decided to let him on the train and he had blown himself up?

Had he not run away, he would more than likely be alive today.

SK is absolutely right, but given how ignorant you are I don't expect you to undestand why.

](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)

They DID let him on the train. And a bus before that!

](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)

He DIDN'T run away

](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)

if i was in their position and i was told by someone superior to me that the person i was following was positively ID'd as a terrorist, and they ran away then i would shoot them as well

](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)

Again, he DIDN'T run away. F*cking hell, I'm amazed after all the details of this event have come out that so many people have no clue what they're talking about.

fizzwheel

19-12-08, 11:27 AM

I'm amazed after all the details of this event have come out that so many people have no clue what they're talking about.

But thats half the point as well isnt it, theres been so much hoo hah in the media about it, the actual facts of alot of this have been lost on most of us, because they havent been reported properly.

Is there a linky you can post up that does have the facts of what happened in it. I've been purposely staying out of this thread, because of the fact I dont know what I'm talking about :D :p

ArtyLady

19-12-08, 11:28 AM

Havent had time to read all the posts on this thread, but, my younger brother (18) was faced with this exact situation about 3 weeks ago at crewe train station, he was running for a train that he was late for and he was carrying his backpack (full of college work), 2 policemen steped out infront of him grabbed both of his arms and said he was being detained under section ?? of the terrorist act. He was then questioned as to what was in his backpack and asked why he was running towards a train. Anyway after searching his backpack they let him on his way, and because of this he missed the train that he was running for. Thank god the police officers were unarmed

My god that is so wrong! so you cant run for a feckin train now :confused: wtf! the poor lad - hope he isnt too scarred by it - I know I would be.

Makes me scared to step out of the door :(

Kate Moss

19-12-08, 11:29 AM

Kinvig

19-12-08, 11:30 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7764882.stm

hovis

19-12-08, 11:33 AM

shoot him, shoot him, hes a terrorist

but how do you know hes a terrorist

cos, he looks like one

;)

MiniMatt

19-12-08, 11:35 AM

not realy........... if he did not run away, he would probably still be alive,

I'm assuming they identified themselves whilst perusing him into the station and he ran from them.

if i was in their position and i was told by someone superior to me that the person i was following was positively ID'd as a terrorist, and they ran away then i would shoot them as well

Linkies to follow - there is a difference between repeating information stated immediately after the event and not reading any of the follow up and repeatedly stating things you now know to be untrue. Not everyone in my naughty list above falls into the second category.

At the risk of going over old ground several times over I would like to point out at this time that EVERY SINGLE ONE of the various inquiries into Stockwell has concluded that there was NOTHING Menezes could have done differently that day that would have prevented him from getting shot.

I take issue with the usual suspects who continue to imply that he must have done something wrong and probably deserved it in some way.

Linkies:
Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Charles_de_Menezes
Stockwell One http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/08_11_07_stockwell1.pdf
Stockwell Two http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/02_08_07_ipcc_stockwell.pdf
Coroner's inquest http://www.stockwellinquest.org.uk/

ArtyLady

19-12-08, 11:37 AM

He didn't run away! He was on the tube & they bear hugged him then shot him.

And that's what the people who'd been on the tube at the time said to the TV reporters on the day too! I remember watching it!

jimmy__riddle

19-12-08, 11:41 AM

ok, i will edit my statement

if i was in their position and i was told by someone superior to me that the person i was following was positively ID'd as a terrorist, and they acted in a way i deemed a threat then i would shoot them as well

yorkie_chris

19-12-08, 11:42 AM

You have just GOT to be f*cking kidding me with that statement? Surely you don't REALLY think that? Or do you? Please tell me you don't think that.

As far as I'm aware, even before the noble labour party brought it the terrorism act, it was still fairly frowned upon in law to detonate oneself in a public place.

hovis

19-12-08, 11:44 AM

As far as I'm aware, even before the noble labour party brought it the terrorism act, it was still fairly frowned upon in law to detonate oneself in a public place.:smt043

yorkie_chris

19-12-08, 11:45 AM

Even if he was running, why the f##k would a terrorist run for a train? I know the government give the nappyheads more credit than they should so as to increase their own power, but come on, I'm sure even the simplest of jihad-ists can tell the fecking time!

Flamin_Squirrel

19-12-08, 11:45 AM

Il prob get beaten for saying this but - why do people (org members) get so worked up? I don't understand why people can't have thier opinion without be- littling other members or raising their own blood pressure!!!

Personally, I get wound up because many of those opinions, sometimes strong, are based on totally inacurate information. When you consider that those that frequent this forum are likely better educated than average and are still that poorly informed, it doesnt bode well for the rest of the population. I find that rather depressing.

Caddy2000

19-12-08, 11:48 AM

See, thats why we should take the guns off the police and return to the days when they shouted "Stop, or I'll have to shout Stop again!"

Sounds like the way I'm forced to manage my sub-contractor! "if you're late again I'll be very unhappy!"

And here is your answer....

No apology needed, thank you for jumping in.

and here is your answer...

Since my return to work I have been actively deployed twice, if I am not training I am over seeing actions we are involved in overseas. I am not a runt, I am a Senior NCO with fifteen years service and experience in this unit. I am proud to serve in this unit, I am proud to serve in the armed forces, but that does not make me any better than any one of you. I may do some things that others may dream off, I am sure you all do the same.

Call me a liar, call me what you want, but I will remember it. I am here following two major road accidents which nearly killed me. I am here to pass on my info/experience about the SV and any other bikes. I never came here looking for friends, although I have found many in my time here.

I have nothing more to say about the original post, too many newspaper experts. Any issues feel free to PM.

That and you put Rohypnol on your phoneset!

SoulKiss

19-12-08, 11:49 AM

As far as I'm aware, even before the noble labour party brought it the terrorism act, it was still fairly frowned upon in law to detonate oneself in a public place.

I see that finally, someone gets my point.......

Flamin_Squirrel

19-12-08, 11:49 AM

As far as I'm aware, even before the noble labour party brought it the terrorism act, it was still fairly frowned upon in law to detonate oneself in a public place.

Indeed. And it was certainly the case until fairly recently (don't know if it's still true) that the anti-terror law has been used and abused by the government to arrest and subvert dessenters, not once to arrest an actual terrorist.

Kate Moss

19-12-08, 11:51 AM

Personally, I get wound up because many of those opinions, sometimes strong, are based on totally inacurate information. When you consider that those that frequent this forum are likely better educated than average and are still that poorly informed, it doesnt bode well for the rest of the population. I find that rather depressing.

Or perhaps their perceptions of events just differ from your own.

I don't think you can judge the rest of the population by the level of education on this forum so would avoid getting your self depressed about it!

Poorley informed they may be, but that is their view. Surely allowences can be made if this is the case. Perhaps helping them consider all the facts may change their view and I am sure people appreciate others opinions when they aren't being flamed for their own.

xx

yorkie_chris

19-12-08, 11:56 AM

Indeed. And it was certainly the case until fairly recently (don't know if it's still true) that the anti-terror law has been used and abused by the government to arrest and subvert dessenters, not once to arrest an actual terrorist.

But that was the whole point in the first place. It doesn't take a genius to note that these silly nappyheads are not a serious threat to our nation.

Kinvig

19-12-08, 12:02 PM

Poorley informed they may be, but that is their view

Nope. So many people on here have said that Menezes ran away from police. That's one of the myths that the police put out in the early aftermath. The tabloids picked up on it & peddled that lie. People have been spponfed the view that he ran, it's in-part his fault.

It's the view of the tabloid editor of the papers they read, but it's not their view.

Kate Moss

19-12-08, 12:12 PM

Nope. So many people on here have said that Menezes ran away from police. That's one of the myths that the police put out in the early aftermath. The tabloids picked up on it & peddled that lie. People have been spponfed the view that he ran, it's in-part his fault.

It's the view of the tabloid editor of the papers they read, but it's not their view.

Then the reader has chosen to agree with view of the reporter

Caddy2000

19-12-08, 12:12 PM

Quick question about the running away, who's faster?

You or Mr 9mm? (or whatever caliber you want to add)

I'm pretty sure that I cannot outrun a .22 air rifle pellet let alone something travelling faster than the speed of sound.....

This thread is slightly annoying me because I have a friend who is an armed copper in Essex, he's also ex 1 para (slag them off if you like, don't care). It's very interesting to speak to him about holding the same gun (G36) in two different jobs.
God knows what happened on that train - we will never know fully, but that does not matter. I am not going to judge them, I was not there, I could not do their job let alone DD's! I shoot and know how to 'snipe', but I shoot rabbbits and pigeons! They don't know that I'm there. I still cannot comprehend lining up my sights on someone and squeezing off a round knowing that at the same time I could be killed by this person because they are a suicide bomber. Or being the person who has to make that decision; relying on data collected by a third person.

There are far too many 'what if's' that I don't even know about, and until I get into that position (god forbid) I will not comment or pass judgement.

We learn off our mistakes, but please no witch hunts! We are all human = falable

Luckypants

19-12-08, 12:14 PM

It's the view of the tabloid editor of the papers they read, but it's not their view.

but where else do we get our information except from news sources that have been written by someone else with an opinion?

Short of interviewing all the witnesses ourselves we have to go by what we read / hear, all of which will be coloured the author's opinion. The only thing to do is weigh up all the information given to us and form our own opinion - which we do, it just not happen to match yours.

Kinvig

19-12-08, 12:21 PM

but where else do we get our information except from news sources that have been written by someone else with an opinion?

Short of interviewing all the witnesses ourselves we have to go by what we read / hear, all of which will be coloured the author's opinion. The only thing to do is weigh up all the information given to us and form our own opinion - which we do, it just not happen to match yours.

Well, I personally will read multiple information sources. And watch on TV, BBC news, Channel 4 news & when I want to rant at the woefully dumbed-down & inadequate news ITV.

I stopped reading the tabloids when those 2 girls in Soham went missing because it turned into some hysterical, media inspired frenzy. (A bit like that Diana mourning spectacle).

The media is keen to twist our emotions and view points in order to sell more papers. Never let the truth get in the way of a good story etc.

Flamin_Squirrel

19-12-08, 12:35 PM

Kate Moss

19-12-08, 12:46 PM

As long as you believe in your opinion, thats all that matters!

MiniMatt

19-12-08, 12:56 PM

People aren't forming views on reporters opinions, they basing them on incorrect factual information. Big difference.

Indeed, and that's the large proportion of my frustration too. There's a whole seperate argument about the totalitarian direction I believe we're headed but that is an argument about opinion and opinions can differ.

There is now NOBODY saying Menezes ran from the police, jumped a barrier, wore clothing suspiciously bulky or any of that. The police aren't saying that, even tabloid journalists aren't saying that, none of the inquests said that.

The only people saying that are forum posters on this and doubtless countless other forums. There is a substantial difference between opinion and fact, and whilst I'd agree that most people, myself included tend to believe their opinion is closer to fact than it really is, in the Menezes case it's undeniable fact. There is CCTV, there are pictures of his body, there is firm undeniable evidence.

I vehomently disagree with some people's opinions for sure, but when people contradict undeniable facts and claim "well, it's my opinion so I'm entitled to hold it and peddle it to others" then I do get grumpy. It would be akin to me telling everyone that David Cameron blows goats, in spite of no evidence to back this up, and in spite of video evidence proving that David Cameron was not blowing goats at the time I claim he did - and then going on to broadcast this "fact" of mine to the world with the defence that "it's my opinion ergo I'm entitled to it (you are) and I'm entitled to peddle this to everyone else (you are not)".

Kate Moss

19-12-08, 01:06 PM

Some big words in there matey!!!

jimmy__riddle

19-12-08, 01:58 PM

Indeed, and that's the large proportion of my frustration too. There's a whole seperate argument about the totalitarian direction I believe we're headed but that is an argument about opinion and opinions can differ.

There is now NOBODY saying Menezes ran from the police, jumped a barrier, wore clothing suspiciously bulky or any of that. The police aren't saying that, even tabloid journalists aren't saying that, none of the inquests said that.

The only people saying that are forum posters on this and doubtless countless other forums. There is a substantial difference between opinion and fact, and whilst I'd agree that most people, myself included tend to believe their opinion is closer to fact than it really is, in the Menezes case it's undeniable fact. There is CCTV, there are pictures of his body, there is firm undeniable evidence.

I vehomently disagree with some people's opinions for sure, but when people contradict undeniable facts and claim "well, it's my opinion so I'm entitled to hold it and peddle it to others" then I do get grumpy. It would be akin to me telling everyone that David Cameron blows goats, in spite of no evidence to back this up, and in spite of video evidence proving that David Cameron was not blowing goats at the time I claim he did - and then going on to broadcast this "fact" of mine to the world with the defence that "it's my opinion ergo I'm entitled to it (you are) and I'm entitled to peddle this to everyone else (you are not)".

i think its difficult to tell what peoples opinions are from reading posts on here, sometimes keyboard chat isnt that clear.

Myself and most likely some others are not trying to peddle false claims, just using proposed happenings as examples to prove a point. Yes, it is shown now that he didnt run, i dont think anyone is going to argue that because it is known to be true.

yorkie_chris

19-12-08, 02:34 PM

This would escalate out of control, do you really want to see the armed forces on the streets of town/villages/cities?

I know lots of folk who carried pistols legally, usually M1911 derivatives, and the few times (that I know about) they were drawn for anything but target practice at the range nothing unpleasant happened.

Now you've only got the highly trained :rolleyes: armed response with guns, and all the criminals. All gun control does is take guns away from people who are not inclined to break the law.

yorkie_chris

19-12-08, 02:35 PM

But none of those are big enough to hide trolls under... and they still lurk in between busses and under protocols....

Stig

19-12-08, 02:35 PM

Keep on topic or the thread will be deleted. My finger is getting tired on the delete post button. Many thanks.

Dangerous Dave

19-12-08, 02:37 PM

Mods: Delete if you feel it is necessary.

In an attempt to move on from the recent derail this is the original post, this is what this thread should be about and there is also a poll for this thread too....

The Menezes thing got me thinking....

What if you're getting the tube one day, you probably run for the tube as you're always late.

A copper puts his gun in your face. He may or may not say, "armed police", it won't matter by that time he's got his orders and he'll be hyped up on adrenilin.

So, the question - what do you do?

If you do nothing, then you're dead right? You've been positively id'd, you're on a tube, he's got to save innocent civilians.

Or, you do something. Likely, they're definitely going to shoot you now as you must be a terrorist - you're fighting back. Your only hope is to overpower him & get as far away as you can and hope that when they calm down it can all be sorted out.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.....

If anyone wishes to discuss the recent derail and slander please PM me, leave this thread out of it.

yorkie_chris

19-12-08, 02:41 PM

OK, so if you are a terrorist, you have say a couple of kg of home-brewed HE mixed with ball bearings strapped around you, electric detonator + timer. Why would you run for a train?

In fact, running anywhere and deliberately attracting attention to yourself is about the least terrorist-like thing to do.. So why in an earlier post did the genius coppers see this as suspicious?

Dangerous Dave

19-12-08, 02:48 PM

Why would you run for a train?
I wouldn't, if you caught the later train you would still get to your destination and to be honest anytime during the day in London will have mass casualties.

fizzwheel

19-12-08, 02:49 PM

OK, so if you are a terrorist, you have say a couple of kg of home-brewed HE mixed with ball bearings strapped around you, electric detonator + timer. Why would you run for a train?

because if you dont get on that train and detonate your bomb, you mess up a sequence of timed events designed to cause maximum chaos.

So you've got held up in traffic or the train you took to enable you to catch the train you are running for is runnig late so you get to the station late. You're passionate about your cause and you dont want to let down your organisation so you run to get on the train...

plowsie

19-12-08, 02:50 PM

My first post was a point to the thread I thought...

I was once in a police raid in a pub. Hands in the air then behind the head, on knees then face down to the floor and don't move unless instructed. Simple. I speak English.

My actual point from this, maybe the guy didn't understand (language barrier), panicked and seemed to not comply with what the armed officers wanted him to do.

Misconstrued with ignoring, or not complying.

yorkie_chris

19-12-08, 02:50 PM

Exactly, so why is it seen as suspicious? Also with the quality of home brewed explosives, especially the quality these folk seem to be able to achieve, rattling it around is the last thing you want to do!

yorkie_chris

19-12-08, 02:51 PM

because if you dont get on that train and detonate your bomb, you mess up a sequence of timed events designed to cause maximum chaos.

So you've got held up in traffic or the train you took to enable you to catch the train you are running for is runnig late so you get to the station late. You're passionate about your cause and you dont want to let down your organisation so you run to get on the train...

Or maybe you're just late for work? Which is more likely?

fizzwheel

19-12-08, 02:53 PM

Or maybe you're just late for work? Which is more likely?

Late for work obviously, the big issue here is when did running become "a susipcious activity" isnt it.

yorkie_chris

19-12-08, 02:57 PM

Dangerous Dave

19-12-08, 03:05 PM

The Terrorism Act is just a blanket that the government can throw over whatever they like. You are right running isn't suspicious, look how many people run to/in a train station.

MiniMatt

19-12-08, 03:27 PM

Exactly, because it's a tactical blunder. It's like looking for spies... go find someone who's exactly average :-P

Terrorism is only used as the governments bogeyman because it's easy. They're black, they don't like us, they speak another language, go to a different church. FEAR THEM and take an ID card...

Look at IRA, they were more of a threat, seriously equipped by the soviets, motivated but not suicidal. But there was less of a big-brother agenda... so the more serious threat - wasn't a threat :-P

Oh. My. God.

I agree with YC.

I'd shoot myself now if I wasn't a proponent of gun control :D

In addition to the very strong IRA argument, there was a time, about 65 years ago, when a group hundreds of thousands strong, all very competent bomb makers and highly motivated rained down thousands of tons of high explosive on the cities all across the country on a daily basis. And civilisation didn't end.

Today we have a bunch of loonies, most of whom fail spectacularly to set fire to a car full of petrol, who somehow figure that the combination of petrol, matches, and nails will magic themselves into some weapon of mass destruction rather than just a pop and a pretty bonfire; and yes, occasionally some amongst this loony bunch will rise above the average or just get spectacularly "lucky" and succeed in killing the Western Infidels.... by blowing themselves up... hence the most succesful, intelligent and lucky suicide bomber seen for some time is now no longer a threat.

yorkie_chris

19-12-08, 03:30 PM

Many more are even successful in suicide bombing, actually master creating an explosive, just haven't got the hang of controlling WHEN the detonation occurs.

The flour-bomb attempt was laughed at quite a bit, but if you know a bit you can see that in a confined space something like that would be incredibly destructive.

Lets face it though, people with enough intelligence for basic chemistry must be a good 40 IQ points above that required to want to blow yourself to bits.

neillfergie

19-12-08, 04:29 PM

MiniMatt

19-12-08, 05:29 PM

Not sure if i deserve to be on a naughty list Minimatt? :(

i did say i was assuming they would have identified themselves as armed police prior to chasing him???

either way you cut it if any of us were in the same position we probably would / should have made the same decision based on the info to hand . . . which in retrospect was the wrong one.

Don't worry about it too much, I won't make you stand in the naughty corner :D

But they didn't actually chase him. At any stage. Ever. And the final inquest concluded that they only identified themselves as Police AFTER they shot him. At which point he didn't move but wasn't massively cooperative.

northwind

19-12-08, 07:22 PM

As long as you believe in your opinion, thats all that matters!

No offence but do you believe this, really? Opinion is more important than truth? Any adult knows people can have different opinions and that there's room for more than one in a lot of cases, but also, anyone who wants to have a sensible conversation has to accept that some things are true, and some things aren't, and an opinion based on things that aren't true is worthless.

I dunno, it seems like a lot of people now think it's rude to correct people who're wrong, but that it's absolutely fine to talk complete uninformed rubbish. Is that what we've come to?

northwind

19-12-08, 07:25 PM

As far as I'm aware, even before the noble labour party brought it the terrorism act, it was still fairly frowned upon in law to detonate oneself in a public place.

Except in Chipping Sodbury, where an archaic law from the middle ages allows welshmen to detonate themselves every harvest moon.

jimmy__riddle

19-12-08, 07:38 PM

I dunno, it seems like a lot of people now think it's rude to correct people who're wrong, but that it's absolutely fine to talk complete uninformed rubbish. Is that what we've come to?

This has always been the case, its called religion

tinpants

19-12-08, 11:01 PM

You completely misunderstood my post.

Our freedom and liberty are restricted due to the Terrorist act on a daily basis - TSM was stopped on his bike on his way home from the Soho meet one night under it, less than half a Km from my house I would add.

There is too much power in the statment "We thought you were a terrorist".

Without the act, De Menezes would have been a criminal suspect, regarded to be an extreme danger to himself and others, and deadly force should be used.

I am sure that those powers exsisted during "The IRA years".

Remember those - when a bunch of terrorists that we actually knew the names and presumably the addresses of, sat over a small amount of water and plotted to blow up targets in the UK, the Bishopsgate bomb went off within half a mile of where I sit now, and then there was the shoplifting (well they lifted the Arndale Center about a foot off the ground).

No Terrorism act then and we felt as safe as we do now.

Fair comment. I hadn't thought about it from that point of view.

Oh and BTW Flaming Squirrel, just because I don't happen to agree with your opinion it doesn't a) make me ignorant, and b) give you the right to abuse me on an open forum. You got a point to make? Make it in private, ie by PM. On another note, you weren't there on the day, neither was I, or anyone else so how the feck do you know what was or wasn't said prior to the shooting? Simple. You don't. There has been so many different versions of this event that not many people DO know. And before you ask, no, I haven't read the links that have been posted. (I can't get them to open)

Flamin_Squirrel

20-12-08, 02:15 AM

Oh and BTW Flaming Squirrel, just because I don't happen to agree with your opinion it doesn't a) make me ignorant, and b) give you the right to abuse me on an open forum. You got a point to make? Make it in private, ie by PM. On another note, you weren't there on the day, neither was I, or anyone else so how the feck do you know what was or wasn't said prior to the shooting? Simple. You don't. There has been so many different versions of this event that not many people DO know. And before you ask, no, I haven't read the links that have been posted. (I can't get them to open)

You stated a series of facts that were incorrect, and based your opinion on them. If that isn't ignorance what else would you call it?

northwind

20-12-08, 02:21 AM

This has always been the case, its called religion

Nah, it's not the same though, faith is belief without proof, but the majority of religions have never been proven wrong. Big step between belief without solid facts, and belief despite solid facts. Not everything comes down to black and white after all, but some things do.

On another note, you weren't there on the day, neither was I, or anyone else so how the feck do you know what was or wasn't said prior to the shooting? Simple. You don't. There has been so many different versions of this event that not many people DO know

If you can get access to the inquest report it should clear this up for you, the actual eyewitnesses offer no doubt at all, and they WERE there. The doubt, false information etc came from other sources. The only people who claim differently are the officers on the ground, who to be blunt were proven to be lying by the video evidence (they also claimed that he was challenged outside the station, which simply didn't happen). So they've been shown to be unreliable, and have a reason to lie, while the other eyewitnesses have no reason to collude. And remember that they first gave their stories before it was known that de menezes was innocent.

northwind

20-12-08, 02:33 AM

(ps, don't want to speak for the Squirrel, but ignorance is a term with two uses, specific and general. When it's specific, it's just a statement not really a criticism, ie "Northwind is ignorant about football". Which he is. But when it's general, ie "Northwind is ignorant" it takes on a completely different, sometimes very offensive meaning. I'm pretty sure he means it specifically with relation to the facts of the case here. it's a word I don't use much now because it's so easy to cause offence with it.

yorkie_chris

20-12-08, 04:16 AM

You got a point to make? Make it in private, ie by PM.

Why? You've laid an opinion on the table, defend it reasonably or STFU.

Stig

20-12-08, 09:11 AM

I refer you back to this post only a couple of pages back.

Keep on topic or the thread will be deleted. My finger is getting tired on the delete post button. Many thanks.

Argue the topic as much as you like. Keep your thoughts about each other off the thread.

neillfergie

20-12-08, 09:58 AM

I pity the fool who goes off topic!
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j30/kimtassstic/MrT15.jpg

tinpants

20-12-08, 02:43 PM

Why? You've laid an opinion on the table, defend it reasonably or STFU.

Yadda, yadda. Whatever.

The point I was trying to make is that I based my original post on the information that I had read about the case in the paper. It probably wasn't as up to date as other info, but there you go. Also, I was trying to keep personal comments out of the thread, re: BigApe's suggestion. FS made a personal opinion of me based on, well, nothing really. As I said before, just because my opinion doesn't comply with someone elses doesn't necessarily make me ignorant. Northy's post deals with this quite nicely.

yorkie_chris

20-12-08, 02:52 PM

Bellerophon:
Surely the whole point of such a debate is to put your opinion out, and support it. You suggested discussion by PM. Were you meaning discussing the personal stuff, or discussing the matter at hand? Anyway, it appears I should not post after 3am, especially if I've been to the pub!

If the personal stuff then aye leave it out, I did not mean offence, just to hear your reasons for holding the opinion you do. It now seems clear you were basing your opinion on information in the paper, depending which article that could well make you "ignorant of the facts," that doesn't make you an ignorant person.

Here's another opinion question, what is your opinion on the terrorism act? You appeared to defend it hotly earlier in this thread.