Honest views, please

[Ed]

NB nothing in this post is in respect of anyone on here.

Some time ago I started preparing some wills for a client and wife, personal friends. I then discoverd that their affairs were actually rather more complicated and that an IHT saving will was neded, so I drafted a revised will that inlcuded discretionary trusts.

I originally sent an estimate of £150 for both. Now, the costs rules are that as soon as I become aware that the bill will be higher I have to notify clients. In this case I didn't, don't know why - probably forgot.

Anyways, when it finished I sent an invoice for £300 for everything. I would normally charge £350 for a discretionary trust will. The £300 included the original, simpler drafts.

Client has cut up rough and challenged me. His rather blunt letter says that there was nothing complex about the wills and that they don't contain anything like a discretionary trust. Which made me wonder whether he had listened to a word I said or actually read the will before he signed it...

So. Admitted, I didn't send a revised estimate but I did do a lot more work of which he has had the benefit. Should I issue a credit note and a reduced invoice, or insist on payment of the £300 one? Bear in mind the personal friend aspect. Should I be offended? Is friend out of order? Should I accept that it's my fault cos I didn't follow the costs rules?

Please say it as you think, please be candid.

Ed

[Mr Speirs]

To be honest Ed I would accept that I made a mistake. I would expect to be notified if I was expecting a higher bill.

Say if you put your bike into the Garage asking for 1 new tyre. And they then decided you needed 2 and did the work without notifying you how would you feel?

That's what I read it as. Sorry if it isn't the answer you were looking for.

[BoltonSte]

TBH i's a difficult one as they are known and it's probably come as a surprise to them as a step up from 150.

If it were explained to me, I'd pay it, but sounds like they don't really listen, Me, I'd probably go through it again, saying how it took you X times longer than a normal will due to the complexity and stick to the 300, or even charging 250 as 'mates rates' as you say you didn't give them a heads up, which is probably what the gripe really is as it's a shock.

Get them to phone another solicitor asking for a discretionary trust will (or get prices yourself) and see what they think then.

Main thing is not to let a missunderstanding like this cause any real grief between you all.

[xXBADGERXx]

Take it on the Chin Ed and chalk it down to experience .

[shonadoll]

It's a bit snotty of him to write a letter like that if he's a mate - If I were him I'd maybe have mentioned when talking to you, and then you could have explained that it was still *mates rates*.

I'd chalk it up to experience and not try and do him a favour again, IMO.

[Baph]

The key word you kept saying, in my mind, was "friend."

Now, do you mean friend, or acquaintance?

If this person/couple really is a friend, then I'd personally sit down with them over a coffee (probably something stronger in my case), and have a chinwag about it. I'd probably end up settling somewhere in the middle, if they're friends, and costs incurred are covered, then I wouldn't care much for profits.

If they are an acquaintance, I'd play hardball, maybe giving a small discount (£50 ish?) by way of apology for the mistake. I'd also highlight what competitors sell the same service for.

[Thingus]

I know that the company i work for wouldn't accept an increase in cost if you didn't say so, but if you're talking about friends, then there's room for haggling.
+1 for Baph anyway.

[Shellywoozle]

Ed,

I would explain to him you made an error but as you are friends you will be happy to go half way to seeing him good and split the difference. If he is a friend he will respect the work you have done for him/her and go halfs seeing you have done him a favour.

He will be happy to utilise your services again and you will be happy to work for him.

At the end of the day times are hard for all, try this before giving in totally.

Good luck ! xx

[-Ralph-]

None of this is critisism or judgement Ed, it's just me being straight and honest with you, answering your question as I see it, based on the limited information you've given.

Looks liked you've fallen into a trap which I have a bit of experience with myself, mixing business with pleasure, now I just don't do it wherever there is money involved. If there's one thing that can cause friends and families to fall out it's those bloody little green notes!

I'll do favours, but if something needs so much work that it has to be chargeable I'll say it's not something I am able to or have time to do myself, but I can recommend a colleague who'll do it at a good price. Then you've still done a favour and got them a better price then they would have got out of the yellow pages, but protected what you have in your friendship.

What I'd have done in this circumstance would be a phone call before the bill went out to explain what went wrong and that you forgot to notify them, but you have actually done a lot of extra work and the bill would be £350 if they weren't a mate, but would you be able go half way on it at £250? A friend would recognise that you've put in the extra and are still saving them £100 compared to the bill from another solicitor and agree. If they didn't they are being a bit selfish and greedy and want to get extra for nothing, which you should never do with friends, so they are probably not that good a friend anyway.

As it is receiving the bill being double the estimate probably ****ed them off and hence the blunt letter back. But again if they were a true friend they wouldn't have wanted to risk loosing you as a friend and posted that letter, again they should have picked up the phone.

So what to do now depends upon how much you value the friendship.

Friends are there to be patient, stick by you and put up with sh!t and support you when theres an extenuating circumstance, so if for instance his mother just died, excuse his conduct, let him pay the £150 and move on.

If you think he wrote the blunt letter in haste and will now regret it, and recognise that maybe you shouldn't have surprised him with a £300 bill, phone, apologise, explain why it was £300 and see if he offers to pay it.

On the flip side though, if friends fall into the category of "who needs an enemy with a friend like you?", then charge him the £300 quid and cut ties. The family you don't choose can cause enough heartache, you don't need it from the friends that you do choose to spend your leisure time with.

[DMC]

Take it on the Chin Ed and chalk it down to experience .

+1

You accept that your friend/client should have been informed of any change in your costs, as far as they are concerned your gave them an estimate for £150 and that is what they expect to be charged.

Unfortunate, but not worth falling out over and loosing friends :(

Were you to pursue them for the £300 and they refused to pay, what could you do anyway? Probably not alot (contract etc), but your the expert in that field.

[Balky001]

Hi Ed,

I'd honestly put it down to experience. I would explain that actually it does contain a discretionary trust and admit it was something you could have mentioned at the time but forgot. I would also say for the sake of the friendship (who wants to lose friends over £150, well maybe your client!) and the fact you did make an error lets put this behind us (and also get future business so you can get money back 1 way or other if you want to). He may offer something towards it once calmed down.

Also as a business you don't need bad comments like 'I thought he was a mate and ripped me off, feel sorry for the customers he doesn't like etc' as obviosuly this is not true but people can be funny. Risk/reward, know your curve!.

[embee]

Whatever happens, from here on it sounds like they're not going to be "friends" anyway.

Like you and the others say, your mistake unfortunately. :smt102 Shame, but there you go.

I'd put money on you not doing the same thing again!

I do work for friends, but only the ones who trust me and I trust implicitly. Unfortunately you do very often end up charging well below what it ought to be, but I've always found I get paid back in other ways.

[Ed]

Thank you all for your comments. I tried not to let it show in my post but I am hopping mad.

My inclination is to take it on the chin because the time it takes to argue over £150 is simply too great and it obviously means a lot to him to 'win'. This bloke and his wife were very close to us some years ago - we used to babysit their then very young children, we even held daughter's birthday party here when her mother was ill, but as their kids have grown up we have rather drifted. We confronted this issue a few years ago but they said that as their kids were now teenagers and Sophie was (at the time) only 6, we couldn't expect teenagers to want to know. So we have drifted and we are not as close as we once were.

On the contractual side - if I refused to back down and they applied to the Solicitors Regulation Authority for a remuneration certificate (basically, an independent review of the file to determine is it worth the bill) I'd have no chance cos I didn't send a revised estimate.

What annoys me is that he knew I was doing a discretionary trust and knew it was a lot more work. Now it seems as though he hasn't even read the bloody thing. I think I will write a slightly hurt letter to say that as I didn't send a revised estimate they are entitled to insist that the bill is in accordance with the estimate, send a credit note for the original and issue a revised invoice for the lower amount, and see how much they send.

As for the friendship - well as stated it was drifting and now I feel utterly shafted.

[454697819]

No.. stick to your guns, regardless of Mates or Familly you provided a service which is costable, an estimate is that,

If I change something half way though and dont recieve an revised estimate I would still expect the final bill to change....

You cannot get something for nothing...and remeber profit is NOT a dirty word...

My dad faces this as a plumber, ppl not happy with the bills, he simply sticks to his guns, as rightly the equipment is his untill paid, so he has every right to go and remove the installation...

Is it possible for you to nullify your work and cancel the bill?

[Daimo]

Nopne of my "friends" would need to write a letter about it, as we are friends........

AS said, we'd sit down, discuss it and sort something out between us. I'd admit i'd ballsed up a little, my friends would understand and we'd sort something out.

Can't be much of a "friend" if he's writing you a sh1tty letter straight away. Wheres the matey phone call joking about why your bumming him :lol: ???

So ok, you' made a mistake, but it doesn't sound like a "friend" to me. Hence why you never do work for mates, as it always goes wrong, and as your friends, you kind expect more.

Legal side you should have covered, moral side, sorry but it doesn't read like a "mate" at all. Mates would understand a mistake, people who are only after something would write a nasty letter.

I'll let you decide which you feel you "friend" comes under. To me its no longer s friendship, there-for I would deal with it as I would any client.

You don't get anywhere in the legal world by "being nice." :lol: Least not all the ones I worked in.

[Speedy Claire]

I think you`ve made the right decision Ed...

In honesty if I was quoted £150 for something then received a bill for £300 I`d be wanting to know why. I think as someone has already said you have to accept you made a mistake and learn from it.

[Biker Biggles]

Thank you all for your comments. I tried not to let it show in my post but I am hopping mad.

My inclination is to take it on the chin because the time it takes to argue over £150 is simply too great and it obviously means a lot to him to 'win'. This bloke and his wife were very close to us some years ago - we used to babysit their then very young children, we even held daughter's birthday party here when her mother was ill, but as their kids have grown up we have rather drifted. We confronted this issue a few years ago but they said that as their kids were now teenagers and Sophie was (at the time) only 6, we couldn't expect teenagers to want to know. So we have drifted and we are not as close as we once were.

On the contractual side - if I refused to back down and they applied to the Solicitors Regulation Authority for a remuneration certificate (basically, an independent review of the file to determine is it worth the bill) I'd have no chance cos I didn't send a revised estimate.

What annoys me is that he knew I was doing a discretionary trust and knew it was a lot more work. Now it seems as though he hasn't even read the bloody thing. I think I will write a slightly hurt letter to say that as I didn't send a revised estimate they are entitled to insist that the bill is in accordance with the estimate, send a credit note for the original and issue a revised invoice for the lower amount, and see how much they send.

As for the friendship - well as stated it was drifting and now I feel utterly shafted.

Seems you already know this is the right thing to do.Put it down to experience and move on.

[454697819]

No no no

Ed provided an Estimate.. its just that...

There is nothing wrong with increasing your bill, unless its mine..

Cheers

Alex

[Stig]

I have not read anyone else's response as I don't want to be influenced on what anyone else has said.

You are stuck between a rock and a hard place. You made the error in the first instance as you did not notify them of the additional costs. You gave them a price and as far as they were concerned that was the price they would have to pay. I am not surprised they are contesting the charge you have given them.

If I were you I would feel obliged to take it on the chin and accept that I had made an error that has cost me. You are doing if for a friend and sometimes friendship is worth more than the money. I understand you are running a business and there are lost profit implications, but if the business can take the hit, I would agree with the friends to charge the original fee. I can't comment about the manner in which your friends have complained about what you have done though, I don't know them. It would be a wild guess and assumption to make a comment about that.

[Ed]

Alex - I am obliged under the costs rules to notify a client if the estimate becomes too low. No escape from that, the rules are there to give clarity in precisely this sort of situation. I am just so disappointed with these people, I didn't expect such a whining letter that complained so much, and that said 'there was no discretionary trust' - there is one, and it just goes to show that (a) he hasn't listened to a word I said and (b) he hasn't read the document. Next I'll have a complaint that it wasn't what he wanted.

I dunno. Perhaps I have no reason to complain, cos I didn't follow the rules and so I have only myself to blame. You try to run a business at a profit, provide employment for people, and then this sort of thing happens. It's just madness, I am making a whacking great loss on these wills as it is. Rightly or wrongly, it leaves me feeling very sore.

Edit - just read Ape's post. This is what I have done Simon. But do they value the friendship - such as it is - at more than £150?

Moral of the story is always be crystal clear and never be embarrassed to talk money.

Edit no 2. On a completely unrelated topic, I've just lost a resi conveyancing job. I quoted £425. Client agreed, then changed his mind cos he's found a firm in Derby that will do it for £250. I don't know how anyone can do the work at that price. Peanuts and monkeys I spose. I'm having a bad day.

[Mr Speirs]

Feel for you Ed. I really do. It must be hard to provide for your family and your employees and be sucsessful.

You said they don't value the friendship but maybe on the other hand they are thinking he is our friend why didn't he let us know the bill was going to be twice what he quoted? Just a thought.

Regards to your 2nd edit I see it all the time in my line of work, one company in particular quoting a price that no-one else can match. The fact is to quote these ridiculous prices they are shafting someone somewhere by doing it, cutting corners or simply not doing quality work so just take pride that you do your job properly and that the person willing to pay £425 will recieve quality work from a quality company and employer.

[454697819]

i see didnt know u were obliged to provide a new estimate...

Still.. sucks

[davepreston]

ed check ur pm

[Ed]

Thanks Dave am getting back to you:D

[G]

I think business is business.

In this instance I would say as unfortunate as it is you loose out.

That is like agreeing a price with a builder for £15000, then upon completion of the works saying its actually now £35000 without any prior notice.

Your in the legal business, I think even you know you dont really have a case (excuse the pun).

[Ed]

I think business is business.

In this instance I would say as unfortunate as it is you loose out.

That is like agreeing a price with a builder for £15000, then upon completion of the works saying its actually now £35000 without any prior notice.

Your in the legal business, I think even you know you dont really have a case (excuse the pun).

Er I didn't increase my fees by £20K, G.

I've sent the letter now, will report what they say.

[tinpants]

Alex - I am obliged under the costs rules to notify a client if the estimate becomes too low. No escape from that, the rules are there to give clarity in precisely this sort of situation. I am just so disappointed with these people, I didn't expect such a whining letter that complained so much, and that said 'there was no discretionary trust' - there is one, and it just goes to show that (a) he hasn't listened to a word I said and (b) he hasn't read the document. Next I'll have a complaint that it wasn't what he wanted.

I dunno. Perhaps I have no reason to complain, cos I didn't follow the rules and so I have only myself to blame. You try to run a business at a profit, provide employment for people, and then this sort of thing happens. It's just madness, I am making a whacking great loss on these wills as it is. Rightly or wrongly, it leaves me feeling very sore.

Edit - just read Ape's post. This is what I have done Simon. But do they value the friendship - such as it is - at more than £150?

Moral of the story is always be crystal clear and never be embarrassed to talk money.

Edit no 2. On a completely unrelated topic, I've just lost a resi conveyancing job. I quoted £425. Client agreed, then changed his mind cos he's found a firm in Derby that will do it for £250. I don't know how anyone can do the work at that price. Peanuts and monkeys I spose. I'm having a bad day.
Ed, I know what you mean. I was recently asked by the Headmaster at my kids' school to tender a price for sorting out the potholes and such in the school carpark. Fair enough, I thought, I'll keep the cost down as it was being met by the "Friends" of the school. I put in a price of just over a grand- a price that, might I just add, would leave me with about £60 profit. I've been told today that they have recieved two other prices, one was higher than mine (fair comment - the guy is trying to run a business) and one that was just over half my price. I just really can't see how it can be done. I shall be watching with great interest to see what sort of a job they do for that sort of money.

[Biker Biggles]

I bet your head had a visit from some guys in a beaten up old tipper who had some stuff "left over from a job round the corner":D

Did they have any dags with em?;)

[flymo]

If it were me Ed I think I would take the hit and chalk it up to experience as a few others have said.

[tinpants]

No. But they did say they'd fight me for a caravan.

[Biker Biggles]

Any wheels on it?

[tinpants]

Yeah, until they drove off!!!