View Full Version : Free hacker McKinnon.
Do you think he should be trialled here or the UK?
Now I know we will never really know what he was doing in those system, either looking for secret government data about UFO's or as the US government seems to put it trying to damage there systems, or even if the damage to there system was something else and Mckinnon was a good scape goat for there failings. The only thing I see is that he's been threatened with the death penalty by some officals and is looking at 70 years in prison. All to me seeming extreme...
How do you feel about it.
A link to the current story... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7831481.stm)
how do i free about it? not sure what that means..
yeah death or 70 years in jail is a bit harsh, but he's got to be punished for what he did. he broke the law, he's no uber geek hero to be put on a pedastal and admired for what he did.
hang him.
to be honest i couldnt care less
he broke the law, he's no uber geek hero to be put on a pedastal and admired for what he did.
+1.
There are far more critical/important systems to gain access to than he did. There are also far better ways to be destructive, if that is your aim.
I've had similar discussions with .Orgers in the past.
He wasn't cautious in his actions, in fact, he was down right lazy, and he got caught. IMO, he should be an example to every kid out there - watch your rear or you will get caught.
That doesn't mean I think he should get the death penalty or 70 years in prison (like I said, there's more critical systems that he could of attempted access into, and there's better ways to cause distruction/panic), but penalised/punished nontheless.
If extradition can gurantee a maximum sentence, fine, send him to the US & let them pay for the trial, otherwise, try him here where cyber-terrorism (which whilst being what he will be tried for, isn't what he was doing) isn't quite as heavily punished.
joshmac
16-01-09, 11:29 AM
Thought this was a thread about me for a sec! :lol:
I have nothing constructive to add so I'll leave :mrgreen:
Dappa D
16-01-09, 11:39 AM
wasnt aware of this story so read the link, title made me think of F1, mikka hackinnon (sp?)
70yrs or death...trial him here me thinks
ArtyLady
16-01-09, 11:41 AM
Whatever ever happened to the doctrine of the trial taking place where the crime was commited? He has now been diagnosed with an autistic spectrum condition - that should form part of his defence. I accept that he did very wrong - but no one got hurt and he should be dealt with appropriately and his condition taken into full consideration, and, more appropriately - here on home soil.
Ceri JC
16-01-09, 11:57 AM
Whatever ever happened to the doctrine of the trial taking place where the crime was commited? He has now been diagnosed with an autistic spectrum condition - that should form part of his defence. I accept that he did very wrong - but no one got hurt and he should be dealt with appropriately and his condition taken into full consideration, and, more appropriately - here on home soil.
The yanks will argue that is exactly why he should be extradited; the "breaking in" occurred where the servers are, in America, not in the PC in this chap's bedroom.
Initially when I heard about this story I felt sorry for the chap and thought that as usual, the yanks were being a bit heavy handed and a slap on the wrist and court-ordered ban on using a computer with internet access would suffice. Gradually though, I've come to decide I don't feel particularly strongly one way or the other; the yanks almost certainly will impose an over the top sentence for what he did, but some sort of sentence is probably in order. If someone's mental deficiancies prevent them from being responsible for what they do on a computer, they shouldn't be allowed on one unsupervised, IMO. What if instead of being on a computer, this chap had been in a car and some mental health problems he had caused him to ram you off your bike? Would you still there was any justification as this as a defence?
As to this chap's uber-geek status, like Baph says, the ones who get caught aren't the great hackers: If you get caught, you're either stupid, lazy or greedy (or a combination thereof).
Whatever ever happened to the doctrine of the trial taking place where the crime was commited?
In the computing world, things are different. I can sit in my office, and make any one of millions of computers think I'm sat infront of them typing. All by the power of remote control. Evidence could suggest I was in Australia, when I have an alibi clearly showing I was in work on Anglesey.
For this reason, cyber crimes are treated as being committed wherever the server is located. This is why copyright violations via peer to peer shut down the server, because of local copyright laws where the server is located, not the people using it.
He has now been diagnosed with an autistic spectrum condition - that should form part of his defence. I accept that he did very wrong - but no one got hurt and he should be dealt with appropriately and his condition taken into full consideration, and, more appropriately - here on home soil.
There's no reason his disability couldn't be taken into consideration if her were trialled in the US.
If trialled in the UK, he's still looking at a maximum of a life sentence anyway, thanks to anti-terrorist laws combined with cyber laws.
Dave20046
16-01-09, 12:04 PM
He should be trialled here. I don't think he's even worthy of a custodial sentence to be honest. If I was the US government I'd be employing him!!!!
He should be trialled here. I don't think he's even worthy of a custodial sentence to be honest. If I was the US government I'd be employing him!!!!
No, seriously, you wouldn't.
The systems he gained access to aren't all that secure, and he set alarm bells ringing when he did it. He's not that smart.
Before anyone disputes me & repeats the media claim of the "biggest US military attack of all time" - I'll tell you what he accessed. 97 desktop machines (no servers) belonging to US military. These were spread across 7 bases, and he had access to 3 NASA servers which are solely responsible for data storage.
timwilky
16-01-09, 12:13 PM
I am very concerned that they are stating this guy has Asperger's syndrome yet has had a girlfriend for 4 years. from my limited knowledge/experience of the condition, I would have thought most Asperger's do not have the ability to form an emotional bond to a 3rd party and many do not understand that others may have feelings etc.. Yes they do tend to be obsessive. I am also led to believe that most people are capable of portraying traits that could under some circumstances be described as classic indicators of Aspergers.
I therefore wonder if the recent diagnosis of this guy is just a ploy and shame on him if it turns out to be. It is a little understood condition and generally it is only the family/friends of those who get an insight into it.
What we do not know is how much damage his trawl through the US systems did. They should have a duty to maintain their security and have obviously been lapse in enabling a hack. But at the same time computer misuse has been a criminal offence for long enough for all to know you do not break into anothers computer
What we do not know is how much damage his trawl through the US systems did.
Whilst that information isn't easily available within the public domain, he actually didn't do any damage whatsoever. his aim was simply information gathering.
There is some potential that he disrupted legitimate use of some desktop machines, but that's about it.
His claims are frankly absurb. The main reason he's being persued instead of laughed at is that he has publiscied how he got access. Using a perl script to loop around IP address attempting login with default accounts.
No, seriously, you wouldn't.
The systems he gained access to aren't all that secure, and he set alarm bells ringing when he did it. He's not that smart.
Before anyone disputes me & repeats the media claim of the "biggest US military attack of all time" - I'll tell you what he accessed. 97 desktop machines (no servers) belonging to US military. These were spread across 7 bases, and he had access to 3 NASA servers which are solely responsible for data storage.
This is what gets me, they are saying hang him almost, and in some comments I read they even went as far as to blame him for some of the response failings from Sept 11th. Yet all he did was access some storage servers and a few desktops, with tricks you could probably learn on the internet easy.
It all just seems like diversionary and scape goat tactics to me, as in reality I don't think he's that good a hacker.
dizzyblonde
16-01-09, 12:55 PM
His mother was on the TV yesterday, and she said that someone in a similar situation was tried over here...so why send this guy to the states if they could it over here for the other person. Not only that but why decide after a few years that 6 months community service isn't enough, and decide to go in for the kill over there all of a sudden. They thought that it had been forgotten about for some time, so they thought he'd in theory got away with it. His mother isn;t campaigning for him to get off, just have a trial over here
ArtyLady
16-01-09, 01:05 PM
I am very concerned that they are stating this guy has Asperger's syndrome yet has had a girlfriend for 4 years. from my limited knowledge/experience of the condition, I would have thought most Asperger's do not have the ability to form an emotional bond to a 3rd party and many do not understand that others may have feelings etc.. Yes they do tend to be obsessive. I am also led to believe that most people are capable of portraying traits that could under some circumstances be described as classic indicators of Aspergers. [...]
Perhaps this (http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=127&a=2221) will make you reconsider your concerns?
I've been told I have all the signs of Asperger's... Never felt the need to get checked either way.
im more concered about what to have for tea
im more concered about what to have for tea
rice, peas and some reggae reggae sauce :thumbsup:
Sid Squid
16-01-09, 01:37 PM
I am very concerned that they are stating this guy has Asperger's syndrome yet has had a girlfriend for 4 years. from my limited knowledge/experience of the condition, I would have thought most Asperger's do not have the ability to form an emotional bond to a 3rd party and many do not understand that others may have feelings etc.. Yes they do tend to be obsessive. I am also led to believe that most people are capable of portraying traits that could under some circumstances be described as classic indicators of Aspergers.
I therefore wonder if the recent diagnosis of this guy is just a ploy and shame on him if it turns out to be. It is a little understood condition and generally it is only the family/friends of those who get an insight into it.
What we do not know is how much damage his trawl through the US systems did. They should have a duty to maintain their security and have obviously been lapse in enabling a hack. But at the same time computer misuse has been a criminal offence for long enough for all to know you do not break into anothers computer
Not so, there is a lady who is a member of this very forum who has a boyfriend with Aspergers, he is also a member of a uniform profession.
gettin2dizzy
16-01-09, 02:10 PM
What he did wasn't a crime at the time, and he did no damage.
Let him go.
Don't send him over for sure; it's not like the Americans ever send ANYONE over here when we ask.
What he did wasn't a crime at the time, and he did no damage.
Yes it was, The Computer Misuse Act was established in 1990, making it illegal to access, or attempt to access another computer without permission. Even holding account details for which you have no right to, and not accessing the account(s) is (and was back then) illegal.
Ceri JC
16-01-09, 02:34 PM
Yes it was, The Computer Misuse Act was established in 1990, making it illegal to access, or attempt to access another computer without permission.
+1.
timwilky
16-01-09, 02:55 PM
Perhaps this (http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=127&a=2221) will make you reconsider your concerns?
Interesting read. My knowledge of Asperger is through very good friends whose son has the condition. We have seen first hand his problems and how he appears to be detached from all. They had hoped when he was younger that he would somehow meet a young lady who understood his conditions and could break through to him. However he is now 24 years old and despite having some reasonable GCSEs and a succession of training places/residential course etc is now a loner, unwilling to engage with his parents and spends his life riding the country on trains.
OK this is off topic,so back on. To get a diagnosis so late in life still smacks to me of someone trying to use the system to avoid the judicial process and if so it is to the detriment of all with a genuine diagnosis
Dicky Ticker
16-01-09, 02:56 PM
I DIDN'T DO IT I TELL YOU so now lets discuss who should loose there license for speeding
To be honest I think the US Government is pathetic in the fact they have exposed their vulnerability and now making such a big issue out of it.You can bet his legal expenses contesting extradition are where our taxes are going
SoulKiss
16-01-09, 03:09 PM
Yes it was, The Computer Misuse Act was established in 1990, making it illegal to access, or attempt to access another computer without permission. Even holding account details for which you have no right to, and not accessing the account(s) is (and was back then) illegal.
So what you are saying is that if a Router is considered part of a computer network, but typing the following wordpair
admin:password
I have committed an offence because I know the logins to a high percentage of the nations ADSL routers?
So if I carry a Cisco Rollover cable, a Laptop and a Paperclip it counts as "going equipped"?
If I was the US government I'd be employing him!!!!
+1
Ceri JC
16-01-09, 03:34 PM
So what you are saying is that if a Router is considered part of a computer network, but typing the following wordpair
admin:password
I assume you're being facetious, but no, you haven't committed an offence by doing this. ;)
I have committed an offence because I know the logins to a high percentage of the nations ADSL routers?
So if I carry a Cisco Rollover cable, a Laptop and a Paperclip it counts as "going equipped"?
Carrying it doesn't mean anything. If you used even just the paperclip, you would, within the letter of the law, be in breach of section 3 of the computer misuse act:
3. Unauthorised modification of computer material.
With regard to the initial question. Given the requirement of the act that in order to be guilty;
"[you] know at the time when he causes the computer to perform the function that [accessing the computer is prohibited]."
If he'd not been foolish enough to brag about accessing it publicly, and could prove he had a fair degree of Aspergers, he'd probably have been able to get a more support to fight the extradition on the grounds he'd broken no crime here. As it is, he knows he shouldn't of been on there, so had it been here, he'd of broken the law here too. As I've said, I think the yanks will be disproportionately harsh in their sentencing, but anyone who thinks they will actually use the death sentence on him is bat***k insane. I think even without the yanks' typical throwing their weight around to get an extradition, there'd be a high chance he'd be extradited.
On a related note, Aspergers has been recently found to be an exaggerated form of "male thought" tendencies (thinking in a way typical of males), rather than anything fundamentally radically different from how 'normal' men think. Normal men just do it in more moderation and have a greater degree of "female thought" (empathic, social, etc.). It has also been recognised as having a huge gradient of how it effects people, from so minor that even mental health professionals can't agree whether or not the person has it, through to people who are almost Solipistic in their perception of the world. So saying person x has Aspergers and hence is comparable to this particular chap isn't very accurate IMO.
startrek.steve
16-01-09, 03:34 PM
The US government is just being typical in its attitude, Ive come across it time and time again in industry and Education...
not how can we fix it.........
WHO CAN WE BLAME FOR IT!!!
Steve
So what you are saying is that if a Router is considered part of a computer network, but typing the following wordpair
admin:password
I have committed an offence because I know the logins to a high percentage of the nations ADSL routers?
The wordpair in itself isn't illegal, knowing manufacturers/models and how to distinguish them over the network or physically in front of you, and sharing that knowledge, by the letter of the law, is an offence. If you know the information and do not share it, then how can anyone prove you know it?
The wordpair itself is used for far more than just routers, as you well know. :p
ArtyLady
16-01-09, 03:47 PM
I DIDN'T DO IT I TELL YOU so now lets discuss who should loose there license for speeding
To be honest I think the US Government is pathetic in the fact they have exposed their vulnerability and now making such a big issue out of it.You can bet his legal expenses contesting extradition are where our taxes are going
teehee I was waiting for you to appear ;) :mrgreen:
SoulKiss
16-01-09, 03:52 PM
The wordpair in itself isn't illegal, knowing manufacturers/models and how to distinguish them over the network or physically in front of you, and sharing that knowledge, by the letter of the law, is an offence. If you know the information and do not share it, then how can anyone prove you know it?
The wordpair itself is used for far more than just routers, as you well know. :p
So knowing that if my Laptop see an SSID of Netgear on an unsecured WiFi link that password (or 1234) used with that username would cause me trouble, but as long as I dont know that I am fine.
Good to know.
And if they cant do you with "going equipped" why is it illegal to carry knives?
Ceri JC
16-01-09, 03:56 PM
The wordpair in itself isn't illegal, knowing manufacturers/models and how to distinguish them over the network or physically in front of you, and sharing that knowledge, by the letter of the law, is an offence. If you know the information and do not share it, then how can anyone prove you know it?
The wordpair itself is used for far more than just routers, as you well know. :p
I think I have to disagree with you there: Whilst section 2 of the act makes provision for helping other people, "to facilitate the commission of such an offence (whether by himself or by any other person);" they require you too to actively be involved in breaking section one (Unauthorised access to computer material) themselves.
For example, if I broke into a computer, enabled TS and gave you the connection details, I could be charged for anything you subsequently did with that access. If in the course of my job I discovered an exploit to allow you to access a particular model/patch level Cisco router, which I was in charge of administering and publicised this exploit in the hope it would work as a catalyst to get Cisco to produce a patch sooner and you then used this knowledge to break in, I'd not be responsible.
When it's just information you're providing, apart from a narrow range of exceptions, it is very hard to prove:
a) You had to break section one of the computer misuse act to come by this
AND
b) You made this available with the intent that others would use it to breach the computer misuse act.
If there's reasonable doubt on either of those, you're in the clear. Hence why, unless I'm mistaken, there is as yet no case law for those making hacking tutorials etc. available being prosecuted for "aiding" those who go on to break in using them.
admin:password
How did you get me online banking pin.
Ceri JC
16-01-09, 04:02 PM
So knowing that if my Laptop see an SSID of Netgear on an unsecured WiFi link that password (or 1234) used with that username would cause me trouble, but as long as I dont know that I am fine.
Good to know.
See my answer to Baph. I do not believe knowing, nor publicly making available, this information is in any way in breach of the computer misuse act. I formally studied this with a Distinction at Masters level, BTW. :)
And if they cant do you with "going equipped" why is it illegal to carry knives?
Perhaps, because knife crime isn't within the scope of the computer misuse act? :D
Seriously though, I don't think it was strictly illegal to carry a knife, so long as you had a plausible reason to do so. I hope not. I've gone into a police station with a knife on my belt and I carry one on my bike. :confused:
ArtyLady
16-01-09, 04:03 PM
Interesting read. My knowledge of Asperger is through very good friends whose son has the condition. We have seen first hand his problems and how he appears to be detached from all. They had hoped when he was younger that he would somehow meet a young lady who understood his conditions and could break through to him. However he is now 24 years old and despite having some reasonable GCSEs and a succession of training places/residential course etc is now a loner, unwilling to engage with his parents and spends his life riding the country on trains.
OK this is off topic,so back on. To get a diagnosis so late in life still smacks to me of someone trying to use the system to avoid the judicial process and if so it is to the detriment of all with a genuine diagnosis
Im not an expert in Aspergers/autism but I dont think it's a one size fits all condition; my daughter's friend at school was not diagnosed until she was 15, and wouldnt have been diagnosed even now if her mother hadn't fought tooth and nail for 10 years, done a degree in Special Needs Children's Education (or something similar) on the way to enlighten herself, in order to confront the specialists and get the diagnosis properly carried out. Hats off to her - she was right all along.
It could be that this chaps mother was not been as tenacious as my friend above, and he would have easily slipped through the net.
Ive been there myself and fought for a diagnosis for my child -
it took 5 years to get anywhere and even then it was the wrong diagnosis!!! it took another 4 years to get a correct diagnosis (I was pretty tenacious too!)
...
3(1)a. A person is guilty of an offence if he does any act in a way which causes the unauthorized modification of the contents of any computer; and
b. at the time when he does so the act he has the requisite intent and the requisite knowledge.
I acknowledge it's very difficult to prove, but, as in your example, should someone ask how to break into a system, and you in return give them a copy of the 'hackers bible' etc, then by the letter of the law, it's an offence.
In that example, you did something falling into the bracket of "any act" (providing information), you enabled your friend to learn the knowledge required, and your friend had the requisite intent.
I know of one person charged under that section, for passing on information regarding coke vending machines!! But that was only because he went & told everyone in school how to do it, so the prosecution had plenty of witnesses. :lol:
The crime was against servers in the USA, that's where he should be tried.
ArtyLady
16-01-09, 04:25 PM
The crime was against servers in the USA, that's where he should be tried.
So I dont get that - the man was in this country when he committed the crime, so that is where he should be tried.
Ceri JC
16-01-09, 04:29 PM
I acknowledge it's very difficult to prove, but, as in your example, should someone ask how to break into a system, and you in return give them a copy of the 'hackers bible' etc, then by the letter of the law, it's an offence.
I agree, in my own example I said if you know they're going to use it to break the act, then yes you're guilty too. If you didn't know they were going to, you aren't. Hence soulkiss' example of a username/password wasn't in itself, illegal. There are dozens of legitimate reasons for knowing the default username/password for a particular model of router; only yesterday a mate emailed me the default superuser account for a model of wireless router I have. He has no reason to believe I want to use this to break into my neighbours wireless box*, he believes I need it to get my xbox 360 onto Live.
In that example, you did something falling into the bracket of "any act" (providing information), you enabled your friend to learn the knowledge required, and your friend had the requisite intent.
...but did you know he had the requisite intent? What if you're a mechanic and you need to teach an apprentice to slim jim a car as part of their training?
I know of one person charged under that section, for passing on information regarding coke vending machines!! But that was only because he went & told everyone in school how to do it, so the prosecution had plenty of witnesses. :lol:
He he, silly boy, he should of kept that one to himself. Funny you should mention coke machines; I know of a chap who did something similar in the Bahamas. :)
*I don't.
Funny you should mention coke machines; I know of a chap who did something similar in the Bahamas. :)
I now help maintain the damn things. Coca-cola in their infinite wisdom still insist on using a 3.5mm jack plug & 2 modems so that the monetary systems can talk to the actuators. :lol:
The old tricks still work, even on the newer digital machines. Though a word to the wise, the newer machines also have a webcam built in.
Anyhow, that's a fair way off topic now. :lol:
gettin2dizzy
16-01-09, 05:20 PM
Why should we extradite him? The US have never extradited one of its own citizens, and they're only hanging him out to dry because they've got egg on their face. Just because the US had made a blundering error, they shouldn't be able to lock a man up for so long in spite.
they shouldn't be able to lock a man up for so long in spite.
Again, the maximum prison sentence in the US for cyber-terrorism is exactly the same as it is in the UK. The only difference really is that in the US he could face the death penalty.
Like I said, if extradition could guarantee a maximum sentence (ie, anything but death), then let the US taxpayer pay to prosecute him.
It's worth mentioning that since he broke the law (and subsequently got caught), he's been on a curfew, had to sign in daily at his local police station, and had his passport etc revoked. Essentially bail conditions for the last 6 years.
Some would argue that in itself is a sentence, one without any trial whatsoever (other than him pleading guilty to the police).
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