Your views on immigration

[Magnum]

I think this could be an interesting discussion with the growing immigration in the country and the varied, but mostly negative press regarding it.

I returned from a four day trip to Istanbul last night and i have found that my views on immigration have completely changed. I have only been as far as France and Spain before and they arn't very different countries from the UK. My views on Immigration were that it should be pretty much completely cut back on and that it shouldnt be so easy for the immigrants, because they "sponge off the state".
But after my visit to Turkey i can understand why people do immigrate and i believe fully that anyone in certain situations would do exactly the same thing, and immigrate. Istanbul is a very mixed city that doesn't seem to be funded properly, with shanty towns next to hi-rise apartments, 5 year old children begging in the streets and blind people scraping a living selling tissues.
If i was in the situation where i was living in such poor conditions, i would do the absolute best thing for my family and try to make a living elsewhere perhaps starting a business in England, or even working in an unqualified job on minimum wage because this would be the best for them.
In my college there are a fair few non british students mainly from eastern Europe and Asian countries, and i think it is a good thing that they are earning the qualifications for a decent job in the future.
I do however think that the immigrants should be self sufficient and be able to get a job straight away and not live on benefits. I disagree completely with any illegal work and immigration, because this hinders the chances of legitimate immigrants and English people getting jobs.

What do you think about the current immigration?

I don't want this thread to get closed, so try and stop any comments from becoming offensive or derogatory.

[ogden]

I am so not subscribing to this topic.

If you think you're going to get a rational discussion about it on here, you're barking.

[yorkie_chris]

Too easy to get benefits, so Brits don't want jobs that aren't cushty, so immigrants take up the slack

[Luckypants]

I think the level of your understanding is underlined by your using the terms UK and England interchangeably....

I'm out of this one

[bluninja]

I have no problem with immigration provided that there is the infrastructure in place to support the increase in population (Doctors, hospitals, schools, housing, social services etc). However I do object to paying council tax for translating leaflets into 20 different languages and paying for interpreter services.

Provided people are paying their taxes and social, I don't care if they are supporting family members in other countries...it's their choice of what to do with their money.

Whilst it's easy to see the benefits (and downside) of immigration in this country, consider the issues it creates for the country they have left......doctors, nurses, teachers, skilled workers....leaving for better pay.....how do these countries cope with the skills drain and the impact on the population. These are the very people that some coutries need to grow socially and economically...and yet we have qualified doctors working as taxi drivers here as they earn more money.

[ThEGr33k]

Problem is that you get them coming and getting quals and taking our jobs. Not what the country need right now, or ever really.

That about getting a job streight away when they come to the contry is crap, a lot of brits cant get jobs, so why should the immigrants? Thats terrable for the ecconomy.

Over all too much is a bad thing, and to be honest there has been too much for too long.

[Viney]

Plain and simple, we should have a robust immigration policy and stick to it, much like the US and AUS.

We are the soft touch of europe and people know it. There are too many loopholes that allow distant family members to come here and get what they want. Too many do gooders out there that say, 'ooo, we cant throw them out, what about thier human rights..blah blah blah' etc etc.

Im all for a multi cultral UK as i think its adds interest to a country, but there are limits. I also think that anyone that enters the UK and applies for asylum, or citizenship should have to blend into the UK and accept what the UK's culture and not try to impose thier own cluture on the Uk and change it if you know what i mean. I feel (And i maybe wrong) that if we where applying for aslyum in many of the contries that the people come form, we would have to adapt to thier way of life/cultures etc.

I dont see any reason why the UK can not be multi cultral, there just needs to be a steadfast policy in place and one that has implications if the person does not comply, or conform, they are out! The person(s) should be solvant, and not allowed any form of benefits/housing for at least 5 Years of full working, and i dont think they should be granted British citizenship for at least 10 years. Thsi would stop the Marrige for passports scam that happens.

[the_lone_wolf]

reckon i can pre-empt this one by invoking godwins law before it's required...

**unsubscribes**

[Speedy Claire]

It is not just a case of people emigrating (not immigrating!) once here they start dishing out their demands which our Government is stupid enough to comply with.

I used to have sympathy for immigrants but having run an asylum seekers health clinic for over a year and having to tolerate abuse ranging from verbal to a fist in my face I no longer have the same views. I would say that maybe one out of ten immigrants attending the clinic had an actual health problem... the rest would be after (sorry demanding) anything from more channels on their Sky TV to a better mobile phone to a new central heating system.

The demographic area in which I work has a vast number of houses set aside for our asylum seekers.... once in this country they demand a good standard of housing. They are then automatically given furniture, money, clothing, tv, bedding etc etc. In my experience I have encountered a large number of these families who will sell the TV`s, childrens bedding, even rip the central heating boiler off the wall and insist its been stolen and they need these items replacing! we have huge number of UK citizens who are homeless and can`t get decent housing yet these immigrants can.

I`m sorry but it`s all wrong... I don`t consider myself to be a racist but it angers me that these people can come into our country and start making their demands. Our government grants all of their demands and then insists that we have, for example, signs in our health centres in foreign languages for their benefit, our Social Services literature is now printed in different languages. I was asked to carry out a nursing assessment on a lady who didn`t speak English... my PCT had to fund an interpretor to assist me in the assessment!

Again I`m not racist but ffs charity begins at home and if you are going to come and live in our country then at the very least learn to speak English!

[yorkie_chris]

It does amaze me how peoples opinions on immigration, tolerance, integration etc. change so dramatically after walking through Bradford.

[bluninja]

It does amaze me how peoples opinions on immigration, tolerance, integration etc. change so dramatically after walking through Bradford.

Those that survive :smt051

[MiniMatt]

My old boss was born in the UK. His parents weren't. His parents had come here, seeking asylum from Uganda in the 60s. They were penniless, they required significant state assistance and the state also educated and supported their children.

One of their kids, with the benefit of all this free education and support eventually started a very successful business. In which he kept many "Brits", myself included, gainfully employed. Had this country turned it's back on asylum seekers back in the 60s we'd have lost out on a good bit of business and a good deal of employment opportunities 40 years later. Look at the long term view, not just the short.

Does this negative view of immigration only apply to people "coming over here"? What about UK people emmigrating out? Many people on this very forum regularly state that they are looking to get out of the UK to emmigrate some place else.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

My old boss was born in the UK. His parents weren't. His parents had come here, seeking asylum from Uganda in the 60s. They were penniless, they required significant state assistance and the state also educated and supported their children.

One of their kids, with the benefit of all this free education and support eventually started a very successful business. In which he kept many "Brits", myself included, gainfully employed. Had this country turned it's back on asylum seekers back in the 60s we'd have lost out on a good bit of business and a good deal of employment opportunities 40 years later. Look at the long term view, not just the short.

Does this negative view of immigration only apply to people "coming over here"? What about UK people emmigrating out? Many people on this very forum regularly state that they are looking to get out of the UK to emmigrate some place else.

Or indeed, why do the BNP supporting chavesque type think it's ok for them to sponge off the state.

Clearly it's not wise to have a policy in place that lets anyone come over for a free ride while contributing nothing, but there's a happy medium that needs to be reached.

I posted this in another thread today, but I think it sums things up quite nicely. http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1549&Itemid=59

[Speedy Claire]

Does this negative view of immigration only apply to people "coming over here"? What about UK people emmigrating out? Many people on this very forum regularly state that they are looking to get out of the UK to emmigrate some place else.


I could be wrong but it was my understanding (from having considered emigration to Canada some years ago) that in order to be accepted you have to have a sponsor to house you and a job to go to, as well as that you and your family members have to be in good health. I would therefore imagine that anyone from here emigrating to ie. Canada, Australia, New Zealand would not be claiming state benefits or free housing out there?

[dizzyblonde]

However I do object to paying council tax for translating leaflets into 20 different languages and paying for interpreter services.

.

This is the same view as my german gran. She came over here when she married my grandad after WW2. she said back then if you didn't speak the lingo, you didn't get a job...simple as that, and certainly wouldn;t get such things as council services, doctors etc translated for her....it was tough poop. She gets very very annoyed at all these people who can't speak a word, expect everyone to translate to their language for them....and possibly plead ignorance when its in their benefit. She does believe in ''when in Rome'' and I can completely understand her point of view. She really gets on the soap box when it comes to working and paying taxes. Shes worked every day of her working life and paid into society and fully integrated into our country as shoule be expected. Try arguing with an 81 yr old german...your going to lose.
I have worked alongside many many different nationalities over the years at 'willy wonkas'. The type of work attracts migrants. They range from Poles to Afghans to folk from Chad. On the whole these people are very hardworking and wonderful to work with, but along with that you get those that you have to virtually sign language with to get them to do anything...they don't last very long, and to be fair, I really don't have the time in my job to try and tell someone how to do a job if they can;t understand what I'm saying.
I don't have an arguement with a multi cultural society as long as they 'do as the romans do' when its within reason. However with the level of unemployment on the rise with the current climate, I really rhink that there should be a halt on the level of immigration for the minute to give those already here a chance....be it true brit or an immigrant here legally

[Jester666]

It does amaze me how peoples opinions on immigration, tolerance, integration etc. change so dramatically after walking through Bradford.

[edit mode]Substitute Bradford for East Ham[/edit mode]

I could walk up Upton Lane for half an hour and not hear any English being spoken!

My views; Enough is enough, shut the border and don't let anymore in. And anyone who is here without the correct visa/papers etc, stick them on the next plane out of here.

It'll never happen though.

*Dons fire retardant suit in readiness for the flames* :lol:

[hovis]

this seems about right

"On current demographic trends, we, the native British people, will be an ethnic minority in our own country within sixty years.

To ensure that this does not happen, and that the British people retain their homeland and identity, we call for an immediate halt to all further immigration, the immediate deportation of criminal and illegal immigrants, and the introduction of a system of voluntary resettlement whereby those immigrants who are legally here will be afforded the opportunity to return to their lands of ethnic origin assisted by a generous financial incentives both for individuals and for the countries in question.

We will abolish the ‘positive discrimination’ schemes that have made white Britons second-class citizens. We will also clamp down on the flood of ‘asylum seekers’, all of whom are either bogus or can find refuge much nearer their home countries."

[Jester666]

Were's that from Hovis?

[yorkie_chris]

BNP manifesto?

[Jester666]

Can't be. There's some big words in there! :lol:

[Dangerous Dave]

We should all have the same immigration standards, it is a lot easier getting into the UK than it is for us to get into many other countries.

[dizzyblonde]

Were's that from Hovis?

Enoch Powells 'rivers of blood' speech????

[sv-robo]

this seems about right

we, the native British people, will be an ethnic minority in our own country within sixty years.



."
Yep,sounds about right....but don't wanna get into this,some people on here are to easily offended[-(

[hovis]

BNP manifesto?

yes

[Stu]

We should all have the same immigration standards, it is a lot easier getting into the UK than it is for us to get into many other countries.
you all do realise on here that there are far more British nationals working abroad than foreign national sliving in the UK?
Like Tim in Belguim

[Ed]

Hovis, you're Welsh. When what is now Britain was attached to continental Europe, there were nomadic tribes. We are all a huge mix. Me, I'm half Irish (Irish mother from Co Mayo).

This is such a difficult subject. I think immigration is a good thing, in general. It brings talent, it brings diversity, it brings people who are happy to change wee-ridden sheets and clear up sick of elderly people in residential homes because care home owners can't get British people (of whatever colour) to do it. I act for some Filipinos who do precisely this. They are allowed to work, but they are not allowed access to public funds - and they don't want public help, they are proud and respectable, they aren't here on the scrounge.

Part of the problem is that successive governments keep changing the law, it's really difficult to work out someone's immigration entitlement now. But also I do think we have allowed in too many people, people who aren't deserving of our hospitality and people who bring nothing to add to what we have.

[Dangerous Dave]

you all do realise on here that there are far more British nationals working abroad than foreign national sliving in the UK?
Like Tim in Belguim
Yes, but we have to offer certain skills or trades to work in non-EU countries unlike the majority of non-EU immigrants appearing on the UK borders.

I don't mind the ones which genuinely come here looking for a job or a new start in life, fair play to them, but there are a fair few who have none of these ambitions.

[Speedy Claire]

This is such a difficult subject. I think immigration is a good thing, in general. It brings talent, it brings diversity, it brings people who are happy to change wee-ridden sheets and clear up sick of elderly people in residential homes because care home owners can't get British people (of whatever colour) to do it.

I agree with most of what you`re saying Ed but would dispute the above. My experience is that Care Home owners will employ immigrants because it costs a hell of a lot less to pay a Fillipino nurse or carer than it does a British one. There`s plenty of people in Liverpool who would work in a care home could they get the job!

I worked for 6 years as a Sister in a BUPA Care Home. I actually really enjoyed the work but BUPA decided to start employing Fillipino nurses. They only employed qualified Fillipino nurses and funded their flights over here. They gave them a bed in the care home for the first 6 weeks after which they had to find their own accommodation. They paid these Fillipino nurses care assistant wages even tho they were working as a registered nurse thus saving BUPA at least £6 per hour for each nurse.

There were all sorts of difficulties ie. communication problems but I found the main difficulty was that these nurses had no knowledge of basic nursing care. They didn`t know how to bathe someone or feed someone let alone deal with incontinence. In the Phillipines the medical care is paid for by the family`s so the family`s do as much as possible ie. hygiene, bringing food in and feeding loved ones where necessary to keep the cost of the hospital stay to a minimum. As a result of this these nurses didn`t have a clue. After 6 months of this I left stating my reason for leaving was that BUPA were not acting in their patients best interests. After leaving I also wrote an article for the Nursing Times stating my concerns and a few months later I was pleased to hear that BUPA were no longer employing Fillipino nurses.

They are now, however employing a lot of Polish workers and I can only hope that they at least know how to wash a bum and relieve pressure areas!

[Ed]

Claire, that's disgraceful:(

[yorkie_chris]

My mother is also a nurse and it does seem that being totally useless is not limited to nurses from abroad, she no longer works for NHS but every time she goes into a hospital for whatever reason she comes away pretty disgusted at the state of it.

[ThEGr33k]

Immigration is acceptable when they integrate and become British. BUT when they come over here and start a mini extension of their last country they imo arnt welcome. They are the ones that cause issues. Why are they here if they cant speak our language? Bah. :smt104

[600+]

As an immigrant I feel so welcome going through this thread :D

Carry on though, it's eye opening!!

[Woz]

you all do realise on here that there are far more British nationals working abroad than foreign national sliving in the UK?
Like Tim in Belguim


But are there as many British Nationals skiving abroad as there are Foreign Nationals skiving In Britain?

[ThEGr33k]

As an immigrant I feel so welcome going through this thread :D

Carry on though, it's eye opening!!

You work? You speak English? You are one with the culture (not trying to change it to your home countries)? You pay tax like the rest of us fools? if the answer is yes then all's cool. :)

[madness]

I've not read all the posts. All I want to say is that you can't blame people for wanting a better quality of life. If foreigners can get that here they will keep coming.

[Speedy Claire]

I've not read all the posts. All I want to say is that you can't blame people for wanting a better quality of life. If foreigners can get that here they will keep coming.

Exactly... but most of those that i`ve come across whilst staffing the Asylum Seekers Health Clinic can`t speak English. The better way of life to them means living in a house provided by the local councils despite the fact we have an increased number of homeless Brits and for others it`s years and years of waiting on a council housing list to get the 3/4 bedroomed accommodation that these immigrants are being given within a week of arriving in the country. They can`t work so they claim state benefits for themselves and their families and they make their demands which our government stupidly and in my opinion wrongly supports. It`s insane!!!!

[ArtyLady]

[...] Our government grants all of their demands and then insists that we have, for example, signs in our health centres in foreign languages for their benefit, our Social Services literature is now printed in different languages. I was asked to carry out a nursing assessment on a lady who didn`t speak English... my PCT had to fund an interpretor to assist me in the assessment!

Again I`m not racist but ffs charity begins at home and if you are going to come and live in our country then at the very least learn to speak English!

This is extremely irritating to hear - my daughter who is profoundly deaf only ever once managed to get an BSL interpreter at a Doctor's appointment and that was after getting some intervention from Patient Liason Service! Up until then the Surgery just made excuse after excuse :mad:

[Magnum]

As for the comments about immigrants wanting to change this country to suit their own needs, this isn't really them asking for it or asking for change, it's the liberal government deciding what is politically correct and what we should do to accomodate them. One example is the three little pigs song being banned from primary schools. This was never a request from the muslims.

However i did watch a horizon episode where that huge mosque in London was found to be teaching extremist views, and how "homosexuals should be thrown from the highest point". I think that's disgusting.

[Speedy Claire]

This is extremely irritating to hear - my daughter who is profoundly deaf only ever once managed to get an BSL interpreter at a Doctor's appointment and that was after getting some intervention from Patient Liason Service! Up until then the Surgery just made excuse after excuse :mad:


This kind of thing makes me even more angry!!! I read this article in the British Medical Journal and thought great something is being done

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/337/oct20_1/a2164?ijkey=kOY7u4zGw3eElds&keytype=ref

This scheme is offered to all GP`s free of charge before July 2009 so why aren`t they accepting it???

[Balky001]

Immigration isn't a problem if it is of mutual benefit or at least not to the detriment of the country taking migrants in. As Ed mentioned, there can be loads of real benefits which are often forgotten, but as soon as it starts affecting peoples lifestyles and jobs or creating splits in communities then something should change, stronger laws to protect the interest of people living here. Intergration whilst keeping own identities is so important. As the original post infers, we are lucky in many ways living here already, that was just luck, but can you blame people for seeking a better way of life, of course not. Just a bit of comprise and intergration is needed.

[ArtyLady]

This kind of thing makes me even more angry!!! I read this article in the British Medical Journal and thought great something is being done

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/337/oct20_1/a2164?ijkey=kOY7u4zGw3eElds&keytype=ref

This scheme is offered to all GP`s free of charge before July 2009 so why aren`t they accepting it???

Thanks Claire that is really interesting! I will keep that link.

I don't know for certain but I wonder if the reason they are not using it is that individual GPs have to pay eventually - atm RAD supplies Interpreters and AFAIK I think the local PCT pays the bill. I shall of course be fowarding that link to her GP surgery :mrgreen:

As there is such a shortage I looked into to becoming a qualified BSL interpreter - years of complex training and very costly too! I'd be at retirement age before I qualified :rolleyes:

[northwind]

Personally... I reckon that most of the problems we call "immigrant problems" aren't really immigrant problems. Speedyclaire points up the unfairness of immigrants sometimes getting access to services that needy natives don't, which is bang out of order- but that's not an immigrant issue, that's a social policy issue. And there's no reason at all we should be choosing between helping one group of people or helping another- instead of saying "Why do these immigrants get better than british people, let's take it away from them", what's so hard about saying "lets give the british people more"? Even now, we can afford it. The first reaction is always to drag people down to the same level instead of hauling other people up.

Likewise, "stealing our jobs"- the NHS in most of the country is completely dependant on importing labour... NOT an immigrant problem. But, where it goes wrong is that instead of training people to fill the roles, we import people to fill the roles, because it fills the hole now- but you end up using a temporary fix forever, and never filling the hole yourself.

Up until the downturn started, the FMB were *****ing bricks about the prospect of polish builders being lured somewhere else- again, overdependance on immigrants. Which is OK today, since the job needs done today not in 2 years when someone finishes their apprentice, but it gives you a permanent skill gap.

But again, not an immigrant problem, they're not creating the skills and labour gaps, they're just making it possible for us to not fix them properly.

And of course there's the social problems of immigrant communities... Ghettoisation and cultural seperatism really are a problem, everyone knows this, even multiculturalists like me. Just look at ex-pat communities in spain or turkey, they're all mental. Or northern irish protestants in scotland, where you see the classic polarisation of belief and intolerance. Or british oil workers in saudi. They all have more or less the same problems as pakistanis in bradford frexample. And they're big problems.

But... There are ways of dealing with it. Diversity is IMO, on the whole, a good thing, you get a broader cultural pool, a wider scope of opinion and culture and art and restaurants- I like curry- and innovation and approach. But diversity and seperatism and balkanism are all very close together, and it's hard to get it right. And it's hard to respect difference without being ruled by difference, and we don't get that right enough either. But that doesn't mean you give up, and throw the baby out with the bathwater.

The bottom line is that up til now, immigration's been financially good for us. This caused a bit of upset last time I said it, but immigration doesn't cost us a penny, it's a net gain for the UK. I could give you figures from the government or Glover or the Economist or from Phillippe Legrain or similiar but naturally, skeptics would dismiss them so instead, i'll give you figures from Immigration Watch, who're a far-right, BNP-affiliated anti-immigration pressure group. Even THEY admit that Britain profits from immigration. When even the enemies of something admit it has benefits, then that's pretty much case proven.

But that doesn't mean there's not problems, I just don't think they're ever insurmountable "immigrant problems", they're smaller individual problems which can be tackled, if we want. Treating it like a huge unsolvable issue, or trying to solve UK citizens' issues by punishing other people, is IMO not helpful or productive.

Anyway. I'm a known argumentative internet addict, and I don't want to get drawn into the same arguments AGAIN :mrgreen: So, the question is "what are your views on migration", there they are. It brings benefits we can use and problems we can fix.

[Speedy Claire]

I don't know for certain but I wonder if the reason they are not using it is that individual GPs have to pay eventually - atm RAD supplies Interpreters and AFAIK I think the local PCT pays the bill. I shall of course be fowarding that link to her GP surgery :mrgreen:

As there is such a shortage I looked into to becoming a qualified BSL interpreter - years of complex training and very costly too! I'd be at retirement age before I qualified :rolleyes:


Firstly good on you for wanting to take an active role and become an interpreter. Secondly yes the PCT should and will be expected to fund the cost of a BSL interpreter. Under the Disability Discrimination Act NHS Trusts are required to demonstrate that they are actively supporting The Disability Equality Duty (DED) the DED covers the full range of what public sector organisations do – including services that are delivered to the public.

It basically means that our NHS trusts and local PCT`s are required by law to ensure that disabled people do not come across discrimination when, for example, using a service.

It took 2 months and a lot of manpower to find an interpreter for my lady requiring an assessment. The reason it took so long is that her particular chinese dialect was an extremely old and rarely used dialect. However the PCT found one.... I would put it to your PCT that if one PCT could take 2 months to find this interpreter and fund the costs in order to carry out a thorough and precise assessment on a lady with communication problems then you expect and demand that they fund the cost of a BSL interpreter and if you don`t gain satisfaction that you will be making a complaint citing the Disability Discrimination Act.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Just look at ex-pat communities in spain or turkey, they're all mental.

Yep. I'm just disappointed that noone seems to have read the Daily Mash article I posted :(

[ArtyLady]

Firstly good on you for wanting to take an active role and become an interpreter. Secondly yes the PCT should and will be expected to fund the cost of a BSL interpreter. Under the Disability Discrimination Act NHS Trusts are required to demonstrate that they are actively supporting The Disability Equality Duty (DED) the DED covers the full range of what public sector organisations do – including services that are delivered to the public.

It basically means that our NHS trusts and local PCT`s are required by law to ensure that disabled people do not come across discrimination when, for example, using a service.

It took 2 months and a lot of manpower to find an interpreter for my lady requiring an assessment. The reason it took so long is that her particular chinese dialect was an extremely old and rarely used dialect. However the PCT found one.... I would put it to your PCT that if one PCT could take 2 months to find this interpreter and fund the costs in order to carry out a thorough and precise assessment on a lady with communication problems then you expect and demand that they fund the cost of a BSL interpreter and if you don`t gain satisfaction that you will be making a complaint citing the Disability Discrimination Act.

Hi Claire, I wont be doing it because the job involves a lot of countrywide travel which I cannot do due to my health, and also I could never afford the training which is extensive and expensive. (Im already doing an OU degree)

You have to jump through hoops to get what you are entitled to and I ran out of steam years ago (she is 23) but I plod on and gradually get things sorted - (we're practically on first name terms with our MP ;) ) - if only I could get back pay for the hours I've put in I'd be a wealthy woman ;)