View Full Version : Spineless
gettin2dizzy
12-02-09, 04:41 PM
I can't believe we're not allowing this bloke in to the country. ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7885918.stm?lss )
Even more bizarre is that you can be prosecuted in Holland for saying anything critical about Islam. A religion which couldn't be more critical about anyone who's a 'kaffar', or non-believer.
Politicians are so frickin' spineless.
gettin2dizzy
12-02-09, 05:02 PM
If you google 'fitna' you'll get the movie that caused the controversy.
_drummer_
12-02-09, 05:02 PM
Granted some of the quotes in Fitna may be metaphorical or taken out of context but there is (what seems a not minute but smallish) minority it reflects, & may depict some truth for some of these. Although I strongly disagree with some of his opinions I think if it'd been up to me I'd have let him in & had a discussion.
We should never be afraid of freedom of speech.
although we let the **** with the hook in
Bluepete
12-02-09, 05:06 PM
This was discussed on the Jremy Vine show on Radio 2. I wish freedom of speech meant just that! Yes, he may be controversial, but I would rather hear his argument than have the Gov't tell me I can't.
Pete
gettin2dizzy
12-02-09, 05:09 PM
He's not allowed in for being anti-islamic.
Has no one noticed that Islam is Anti-everything-but Islam?!
Just goes to show, blowing people up works. Now everyone is too scared they might offend the delicate sensibilities of these terrorist groups.
dizzyblonde
12-02-09, 05:15 PM
He's not allowed in for being anti-islamic.
Has no one noticed that Islam is Anti-everything-but Islam?!
ooooooo you can't say things like that;) you'll get the thought police going
Bluepete
12-02-09, 05:15 PM
We had a talk from a Muslim Inspector a few weeks ago at work. It was very interesting in that, from his point of view, and that of Muslims in general, the Qur'an teaches a peacfull approach to life. His view was that "extremists" were mis-interpreting the Qur'an to meet their own ideals.
The Muslim Council of Britain (http://www.mcb.org.uk/article_detail.php?article=announcement-656) are clear on that point. Islam is a peacefull belief system, not just a religion, more a way of life.
SoulKiss
12-02-09, 05:16 PM
Upside is that I had never heard of his film Fitna (http://torrents.thepiratebay.org/4102648/Fitna_the_Movie__Geert_Wilders_____film_about_the_ Quran_%28English.4102648.TPB.torrent).
Should be watching it sometime tonight :)
Mr Speirs
12-02-09, 05:16 PM
Would be good if the BBC could actually spell the Qur'an wouldn't it?
Biker Biggles
12-02-09, 05:18 PM
Its probably the case that if no one had stopped him coming over for his film show no one else would have noticed and there would have been no controversy.
Nothing like the oxygen of publicity.
And yes if it comes to it I too believe that freedom of speech is paramount,whoever it upsets.
gettin2dizzy
12-02-09, 05:20 PM
Would be good if the BBC could actually spell the Qur'an wouldn't it?
It would be good if the Muslims themselves could choose a single spelling!
We had a talk from a Muslim Inspector a few weeks ago at work. It was very interesting in that, from his point of view, and that of Muslims in general, the Qur'an teaches a peacfull approach to life. His view was that "extremists" were mis-interpreting the Qur'an to meet their own ideals.
The Muslim Council of Britain (http://www.mcb.org.uk/article_detail.php?article=announcement-656) are clear on that point. Islam is a peacefull belief system, not just a religion, more a way of life.
They would say that...
Maybe they should try reading it. As much as there's room for interpretation, it's very clear in passages.
I youtubed 'fitna' to see what this is about. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ9Y5CHRPlM
I think he should be allowed toput his point across. People can make of it what they want.
Mr Speirs
12-02-09, 05:32 PM
[quote=gettin2dizzy;1782560]It would be good if the Muslims themselves could choose a single spelling!
[quote]
They have its spelt Qur'an. :)
Maybe they should try reading it. As much as there's room for interpretation, it's very clear in passages.
You should try the bible - that is quite clear in places too! Eye for an eye?
Religious books are hideously outdated fictional accounts of something which may or may not have happened. May as well lead you life on Diceman....
You should try the bible - that is quite clear in places too! Eye for an eye?
....
i dont think there is anything in the bible about god being a peadaphile though
Bluepete
12-02-09, 06:12 PM
i dont think there is anything in the bible about god being a peadaphile though
Where's that from then?
i dont think there is anything in the bible about god being a peadaphile though
Wouldn't know - but paedophile is a term not applied in them days. If they had passed puberty then they were a woman. Careful not to judge something on the morals of today - but if it is being held up as a beacon to live your life by......
northwind
12-02-09, 08:56 PM
although we let the **** with the hook in
Yes we did, in 1979. Then he achieved british citizenship in 1984. Hardly the same thing. And then, we deported him. He wouldn't have been allowed in today with his history, under current laws, but that's not the situation at all is it. Blame Margaret Thatcher if you like, she was PM when he entered the country and when he got his british citizenship ;)
On the other hand, we did refuse entry to Louis Farrakhan, and Yusuf alquaradi, so it's just absolute nonsense to suggest that muslims are treated differently.
I've not seen the film but he built his career on trading on fear and prejudice, and claims to be a libertarian while clamping down on other people's personal freedom, and cries out at offences against his freedom of speech while actively repressing other people's, so I'm going to make the kneejerk conclusion that he's a worthless s**tehawk.
I'm not afraid of free speech like some but the fact is he's getting the exact same treatment that other preachers of hate, whether it's against judaism or animal viviseciton or homosexuality, have already been getting, and I didn't see anyone complaining when Jerry Vlazak was refused entry, or a big post about how spineless we were to ban Farrakhan... I think some people just approve more of anti-islamic sentiment tbh.
SoulKiss
12-02-09, 11:07 PM
Having just watched Fitna in its entirety I came to some conclusions
1) I have to get a copy of the Qur'an frp, a trusted source. Then see if what he quotes exists in the text.
I believe that it will - I dont think he is THAT stupid to deliberately misquote, but there may be mitigating context around the parts he chose.
2) He picked the images to go with the quotes beautifully, but so well that it made me feel that I was being manipulated.
northwind
13-02-09, 12:16 AM
Always about context made... And also translation of course. islamicity has one online translation.
The screen grab everyone uses is the plane about to hit the tower, with surah 8 verse 60 beside it. Here it is in context, which shows the full meaning to be completely different from the general call to arms and to spread terror that he suggests it is.
"58. If thou fearest treachery from any group, throw back (their covenant) to them, (so as to be) on equal terms: for Allah loveth not the treacherous.
59. Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly): they will never frustrate (them).
60. Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.
61. But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah. for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things)."
He's used it because of the reference to striking terror, but of course that's not what it actually says- instead it's "Make ready your strength to make them afraid (ie, sabre rattle) but don't fight them if they incline towards peace". If anything, it's a message against attacks like 9/11, not for.
I like to say, when people quote the verse of the sword or something like the passage above, that it's like saying "We shall fight them on the beaches" was justification for the mods and rockers at brighton :mrgreen:
Sorry but the guy is a slug... He is currently being sued over here as some of the images are not of terrorists as claimed, but of a Dutch rapper. (I am not sure if he has corrected this yet but...)
I love free speech as much as the next man, but that is not what Wilders is about. He is pure and simple anti anything that is not Dutch, the same as the extremists are anti everything but. And the guy with the hook? Wilders was calling for him to be banned from NL just as he himself is banned from the UK now. That sounds fairly equal treatment to me :)
The really stupid thing is that he was allowed in the country a few weeks ago, but when it got some publicity he was banned form coming into the country...
dizzyblonde
13-02-09, 09:53 AM
Whilst watching the beeb on the red sofa this morning I watched a pair that they brought on to discuss this matter, one was some sort of Mp lady, and the other a muslim man from some sort of council or another. I was surprised to hear that both of them were in agreement that they should have let the guy in. The muslim man said theres a line of refusing someone 'for having violent intentions' snd everyone is entitled to free speech, he made it clear that this guy should not be put in the same category as Farrakhan, he went on to say, sure there are people within communities that will be offended by what is in the film, etc, but theres plenty more that will not.
Its actually the first time I can recall the beeb getting a muslim representative on that has been more positive about this sort of situation, that hasn't gone mouthing off that its disgusting etc etc. The female MP said that she didn't agree with censorship, but she found offense in the film too. A much better debate I feel.
grh1904
13-02-09, 01:26 PM
I haven't yet seen the film, but whenever there is a debate about freedom of speech I am reminded of the words of Voltaire:
'I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.'
I consider myself to be reasonably intelligent, able to think and act of my own free will, able to make judgements and decisions based upon the facts presented and that I am considerate towards the needs/beliefs of others.
It does frustrate me to think that the government think that I am incapable of the above and need "protect" me by refusing entry to someone into this country.
If I don't like what I'm hearing I'll walk away/switch channels/tune to a different frequency.................................
Warthog
13-02-09, 02:16 PM
[quote=gettin2dizzy;1782560]It would be good if the Muslims themselves could choose a single spelling!
[quote]
They have its spelt Qur'an. :)
Not to be pedantic, but the Qur'an is actually spelt by muslims in arabic writing! Plus the Qur'an is untranslatable, so technically no way that we spell it in English is really correct, its not a patch on the real arabic version :)
SoulKiss
13-02-09, 02:21 PM
I haven't yet seen the film, but whenever there is a debate about freedom of speech I am reminded of the words of Voltaire:
'I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.'
I consider myself to be reasonably intelligent, able to think and act of my own free will, able to make judgements and decisions based upon the facts presented and that I am considerate towards the needs/beliefs of others.
It does frustrate me to think that the government think that I am incapable of the above and need "protect" me by refusing entry to someone into this country.
If I don't like what I'm hearing I'll walk away/switch channels/tune to a different frequency.................................
See I agree with you on this.
The guy that got refused entry however IS a manipulative bigot, if he was British he would be in the BNP, so I guess that makes him NNP or something similar.
Knob-ends like that SHOULD be banned from leaving their own country.
Yes I have concerns about the way that the UK seems to be forced to change due to pressure from people not born here, or the amount I seem to be spending to keep people who have never paid into our Social Security system in a lifestyle I find myself envying, especially when they bypassed at least one other country before making an asylum claim.....
However those are specific cases I can point to - not just some religion based Bogeyman.
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