Is it legal to ride without mirrors?

[-Ralph-]

As per the title really......?

[speedplay]

yup

[madness]

I think it's legal if the bike was not supplied with mirrors fitted as standard.

[-Ralph-]

I think it's legal if the bike was not supplied with mirrors fitted as standard.

I know for sure that you need mirrors fitted for an MOT if fitted as standard, but don't know if that applies to removing them (or in my case having them smashed off in an accident) and then riding.

[speedplay]

Theres some stupid ruling about mirrors.
Its not illegal not to have them fitted but they are needed for an mot:rolleyes:
Same as you dont need indicators as long as you dont carry a pillion...
...where do they dream up this cr@p ?

[-Ralph-]

Same as you dont need indicators as long as you dont carry a pillion...
...where do they dream up this cr@p ?

What? No kidding about cr@p. What bloody difference does a pillion make? They could signal for you! Did you read that somewhere authoritative or could it be an old wifes tale?

[speedplay]

What? No kidding about cr@p. What bloody difference does a pillion make? They could signal for you! Did you read that somewhere authoritative or could it be an old wifes tale?

I was pulled while out with a bunch of guys green laning by a couple of traffic coppers.
All of us were on road legal enduros but they stopped us because "they looked like motocrossers"

They went through the ins and outs of our bikes checking frame numbers ect.

One of the guys had taken off his indicators the night before as he'd ripped out the wiring on a hedgecrossing (long story) but the police said it was ok as he had no pillion pegs.
Thinking it was a load of boll***s I sent an email to the dvla asking about mirrors and if you had to have indicators ect and they replied that mirrors were to be fitted for an mot but not a legal requirement and if you intend to carry a pillion you have to have indicators fitted if they are a standard feature.

But on the mirrors, if you are offroading/greenlaning then bin them as they will only get ripped off but if your on the road, I wouldnt ride without them.

[the_lone_wolf]

Same as you dont need indicators as long as you dont carry a pillion...

vehicle has to be incapable of carrying a pillion and be designed primarily for use off road by either it's ground clearance or suspension...

i've yet to have to explain to johnny law how the pirelli semi-slick on the back of the KTM counts as "off road" but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it...

[dizzyblonde]

Its like you can get away with a bicycle bell for your MOT instead of a horn....I **** you not!

Im Indoors has taken bikes with no mirrors to be MOT'd, it depends on the tester for the OP. If you have got the holes there for a mirror, then you should have at least one, if you've blanked em off, then occsaionally you can get away with none. The SRX has only one mirror on it, and it passed its last mot, but then it passed with no back brake either!

[the_lone_wolf]

Its like you can get away with a bicycle bell for your MOT instead of a horn....I **** you not!

actually no, horn must be a continuous tone

[-Ralph-]

I was pulled while out with a bunch of guys green laning by a couple of traffic coppers.
All of us were on road legal enduros but they stopped us because "they looked like motocrossers"

They went through the ins and outs of our bikes checking frame numbers ect.

One of the guys had taken off his indicators the night before as he'd ripped out the wiring on a hedgecrossing (long story) but the police said it was ok as he had no pillion pegs.
Thinking it was a load of boll***s I sent an email to the dvla asking about mirrors and if you had to have indicators ect and they replied that mirrors were to be fitted for an mot but not a legal requirement and if you intend to carry a pillion you have to have indicators fitted if they are a standard feature.

But on the mirrors, if you are offroading/greenlaning then bin them as they will only get ripped off but if your on the road, I wouldnt ride without them.

Excellent thanks... I won't be riding without them by choice (well I could choose not to ride), but I'm awaiting delivery of a new set and now I know it's legal, I'm doing a rideout next Sunday whether the mirrors have arrived or not. Of course if they do arrive in time they'll be fitted.

[dizzyblonde]

actually no, horn must be a continuous tone

Actually yes! Im Indoors wa present when a friend MOT'd his Harley after he'd had an off, and the horn was knackered, so he put a bicycle bell on it..it passed

I don't recommend folk try it though ;-)

[Milky Bar Kid]

Hey,

I can guarentee you, it is illegal to ride without mirrors. You are required to have an offside mirror on any mechanically propelled vehicle.

[the_lone_wolf]

Actually yes! Im Indoors wa present when a friend MOT'd his Harley after he'd had an off, and the horn was knackered, so he put a bicycle bell on it..it passed

then your tester is bent, hope VOSA don't send a undercover inspector round...;)

http://www.motuk.co.uk/mcmanual_170.htm

[dizzyblonde]

then your tester is bent, hope VOSA don't send a undercover inspector round...;)

http://www.motuk.co.uk/mcmanual_170.htm


nope, not at all, definetely not:rolleyes:. Hes failed the Raptor on a proper safety issue, stiff suspension. .. and so he should have too. We didn't realise about it, but it was put right and passed the second time.

Although saying that I don't think it was our usual mot centre that did the Harley actually, that was probably up in Hull

[speedplay]

Hey,

I can guarentee you, it is illegal to ride without mirrors. You are required to have an offside mirror on any mechanically propelled vehicle.

4 wheeled vehicle according to the dvla.
Their reasoning was that you can see both side when you are sat on the bike.

[yorkie_chris]

vehicle has to be incapable of carrying a pillion and be designed primarily for use off road by either it's ground clearance or suspension...

i've yet to have to explain to johnny law how the pirelli semi-slick on the back of the KTM counts as "off road" but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it...

Point out the "designed primarily for" bit?

[the_lone_wolf]

nope, not at all, definetely not:rolleyes:. Hes failed the Raptor on a proper safety issue, stiff suspension. ..

and having a push bike bell isn't a safety issue?:confused:

i can see it now, overtaking a truck when it starts to drift into you, you sound your horn:

***ringa a ding ding***


"why can't he hear me" you think to yourself, right before you go under the wheels:mrgreen:

[STRAMASHER]

Can't tell you if its legal or not Ralph but it is not good for your mental health, cutting about with no mirrors even if it is just temporary. Fascist Bully Boys In Blue will seem drawn to you. Weird.;)

Especially if you are "keen".;)


...and we know you are!:mrgreen:

[Ceri JC]

and having a push bike bell isn't a safety issue?:confused:

i can see it now, overtaking a truck when it starts to drift into you, you sound your horn:

***ringa a ding ding***


"why can't he hear me" you think to yourself, right before you go under the wheels:mrgreen:

This'd be good too:
"A motor bicycle first used before 1 August 1973 may be fitted with a bulb
horn."

Imagine having one of those clown car type squeezy horns on your bike. :rolleyes:

[-Ralph-]

Especially if you are "keen".;)


...and we know you are!:mrgreen:

Moi...? :smt059

[ThEGr33k]

This'd be good too:
"A motor bicycle first used before 1 August 1973 may be fitted with a bulb
horn."

Imagine having one of those clown car type squeezy horns on your bike. :rolleyes:

Beaten to it... They are ace, you can get them from Halfords I know. I been thinking about getting one for the push bike as they sound ace! And are pretty loud!! :twisted:

[Dave20046]

Its like you can get away with a bicycle bell for your MOT instead of a horn....I **** you not!

Im Indoors has taken bikes with no mirrors to be MOT'd, it depends on the tester for the OP. If you have got the holes there for a mirror, then you should have at least one, if you've blanked em off, then occsaionally you can get away with none. The SRX has only one mirror on it, and it passed its last mot, but then it passed with no back brake either!
Yep we've done a bike and couldn't be arsed to wire a horn in so put one of them arooga horn things on where you squeeze the rubber bulb...bulb horn?

You can ride without the mirrors fine.

[Luckypants]

http://www.motuk.co.uk/mcmanual_170.htm

Interesting that the manual linked to above does not mention mirrors anywhere.

[vardypeeps]

Its like you can get away with a bicycle bell for your MOT instead of a horn....I **** you not!

Im Indoors has taken bikes with no mirrors to be MOT'd, it depends on the tester for the OP. If you have got the holes there for a mirror, then you should have at least one, if you've blanked em off, then occsaionally you can get away with none. The SRX has only one mirror on it, and it passed its last mot, but then it passed with no back brake either!

Did you take it to Grizzleys? lol

[carty]

Hey,

I can guarentee you, it is illegal to ride without mirrors. You are required to have an offside mirror on any mechanically propelled vehicle.

There's conflicting views throughout the thread. I think you can ride without mirrors and so do several others but the Milky Bar Kid, as per above, seems quite adamant you can't. Where you getting your info from dude?

When my GSXR was in the process of being rebuilt a couple of weeks ago, I took it up to a guy to fit some bits for me. I rode from Birmingham to Cannock with no mirrors (therefore no front indicators cos they're built in), no front fairing or headlight either. And no speedo. I was going up the motorway like a granny cos I had no idea how fast I was going - I just stayed in the inside lane at lorry speed. A couple of police cars trundled past without even looking at me.

I dare say if I'd been stopped I'd have got a talking to; and I really don't know the legality of it but I wasn't doing anything dangerous in my eyes - in fact I was safer than usual cos I was going slower!

Most modern mirrors are rubbish anyway so I can't see how you can be punished for not having them - I never make manoeuvring decisions based purely on what I can see in my mirrors.

[STRAMASHER]

When my GSXR was in the process of being rebuilt a couple of weeks ago, I took it up to a guy to fit some bits for me. I rode from Birmingham to Cannock with no mirrors (therefore no front indicators cos they're built in), no front fairing or headlight either. And no speedo. I was going up the motorway like a granny cos I had no idea how fast I was going - I just stayed in the inside lane at lorry speed. A couple of police cars trundled past without even looking at me.

I dare say if I'd been stopped I'd have got a talking to; and I really don't know the legality of it but I wasn't doing anything dangerous in my eyes - in fact I was safer than usual cos I was going slower!

.

Did similar on my Firestorm (just the diddy light gaffa'd on to the clocks.) I got stopped. Wee plate, cans , bit fast. All my work mates trundle past me while i'm giving it the petted lip in the back of the cop car, after our day long tour of Scotland. Explain to the nice man that we are in fact on strike so we all had decided to "go a run" (before the show of hands:p......other folk turned up in Pringles with their golf clubs outside!) Producer for license and insurance and a coupla words of sympathy. As I said nice man.:)

[saintnick]

I can be definitive on this one.

It is legal to ride without mirrors, and an MOT certificate can be issued without them, contrary to popular belief. Takes a little time to get used to riding with no mirrors but is perfectly possible. I'm not keen on anything that clutters up a bike so I go for small bar end jobs.

If mirrors are fitted for an MOT they must be in working order.......thats it.

[dizzyblonde]

Did you take it to Grizzleys? lol

not the Harley, the owners not from round here.

[SoulKiss]

I can be definitive on this one.

It is legal to ride without mirrors, and an MOT certificate can be issued without them, contrary to popular belief. Takes a little time to get used to riding with no mirrors but is perfectly possible. I'm not keen on anything that clutters up a bike so I go for small bar end jobs.

If mirrors are fitted for an MOT they must be in working order.......thats it.

Its ferkin suicidal in London tho..............

[-Ralph-]

The mirrors have arrived! I'm off to put them on the bike :cheers:

I'd still like to put down the challenge for anyone who can prove their view either way though :twisted: a link to a page on an official website, DVLA, highway code, DFT, etc would settle the debate.

[Lozzo]

Hey,

I can guarentee you, it is illegal to ride without mirrors. You are required to have an offside mirror on any mechanically propelled vehicle.

Not so. Mirrors most definitely aren't a part of the MOT and every time I've been pulled up on my CBR600 - which is at least once every time I've taken it on the road - I've had my bike thoroughly checked over and the police officers concerned have never questioned it.

There may be some obscure Construction and Use regulation, but I've never found it.

[Lozzo]

Interesting that the manual linked to above does not mention mirrors anywhere.

That would be because mirrors do not form a part of the MOT test. Ifg they aren't fitted to a motorcycle they don't have to be checked for security. I'm pretty sure that unlike a car's mirors you can have a cracked one fitted and still pass the test.

[Luckypants]

That would be because mirrors do not form a part of the MOT test. Ifg they aren't fitted to a motorcycle they don't have to be checked for security. I'm pretty sure that unlike a car's mirors you can have a cracked one fitted and still pass the test.

That was how I read that. :-D So no need to put mirrors back on the DRZ for MOT, now do I need to bother re-fitting the indicators?

[the_lone_wolf]

That was how I read that. :-D So no need to put mirrors back on the DRZ for MOT, now do I need to bother re-fitting the indicators?

DRZE = plastic subframe, tall suspenders and knobblky tyres = rider only and designed for off road use

therefore, no indicators required:cool:

[Supervox]

Its ferkin suicidal in London tho..............


Really ?

I can honestly say that I've NEVER had an incident or even a close shave due to my lack of mirrors.

If your observations are sufficient then mirrors become redundant - and has been previously stated most modern mirrors are so bad anyway (actually the ones on my SV weren't that bad) that I would'nt trust them as much as my own eyesight.

[SoulKiss]

Really ?

I can honestly say that I've NEVER had an incident or even a close shave due to my lack of mirrors.

If your observations are sufficient then mirrors become redundant - and has been previously stated most modern mirrors are so bad anyway (actually the ones on my SV weren't that bad) that I would'nt trust them as much as my own eyesight.

Its usually the only way you get notification of a cyclist hurtling past at warp speed just as the lights are changing.

So I guess that murderous rather than suicidal is the correct term

[Ceri JC]

Reckon you'd get away with claiming track use is "off road" so something designed primarily as a track bike would be exempt from the indicator requirement?

[Stig]

I don't have mirrors on the SV. I put one on for the MOT and then take it off again.

[-Ralph-]

Really ?

I can honestly say that I've NEVER had an incident or even a close shave due to my lack of mirrors.

If your observations are sufficient then mirrors become redundant - and has been previously stated most modern mirrors are so bad anyway (actually the ones on my SV weren't that bad) that I would'nt trust them as much as my own eyesight.

I use my mirrors all the time to see what's behind me or for minor adjustments in road position.

For any bigger change of direction or position they are a second level of security, same is true in the car. My eyes flick over my mirror on the way round as I turn my head to check my shoulder. The looking over the shoulder is the important bit and the quick glance in the mirror as my head turns is belt and braces.

[peterco]

(b) Mirrorsoptional fitment but if fitted on motorcycles first used on or after 1 October 1978 - must be approved to EC Directive* 71/127, 79/795, 80/780, 85/205, 86/562, 88/321,Chapter 4 of Directive 97/24 or to ECE Regulation 46.01;

http://www.vca.gov.uk/additional/files/vehicle-type-approval/vehicle-type-approval-for-motorcycles/vca039.pdf

[-Ralph-]

(b) Mirrorsoptional fitment but if fitted on motorcycles first used on or after 1 October 1978 - must be approved to EC Directive* 71/127, 79/795, 80/780, 85/205, 86/562, 88/321,Chapter 4 of Directive 97/24 or to ECE Regulation 46.01;

http://www.vca.gov.uk/additional/files/vehicle-type-approval/vehicle-type-approval-for-motorcycles/vca039.pdf




This is for a manufacturer to get vehicle type approval in order to have a vehicle deemed roadworthy when new by virtue of the design having already been approved, so each new vehicle doesn't need a further SVA test.

It does tell us that a motorbike doesn't have to have mirrors when new, so it must be legal to ride said motorbike without mirrors. But what it doesn't tell us definatively is if your bike had mirrors when new is it legal to remove them and ride without.

I think we know the answer, but I'm being purposely pedantic as I find it amazing that we can't find this written in law anywhere.

[G]

I tried riding without mirrors between session at silverstone when going to fill up.....was a horrible feeling.

[Dicky Ticker]

All us old gits rode motorbikes without mirrors or indicators relying on hand signals and looking over your shoulder during your riding test

Even if you have mirrors if they are not adjusted properly you would be as well not having them.

[Stig]

All us old gits rode motorbikes without mirrors or indicators relying on hand signals and looking over your shoulder

Indeed. It just takes a little getting used to. I personally actually think it safer to be taking a physical look behind rather than a glance in the mirror. I only tend to use mirrors as a way of looking directly behind to make sure the person following me is still there.

[Dave20046]

Some still do. I've ridden without them a few times and found it annoying. It's not really any less safe because you still have to rely on your shoulder checks as normal but you can't build up a picture of what's behind you.

[Ceri JC]

On a related note, I've always wondered what the police's view would be if they were following you on blue lights and because of not having mirrors, you failed to notice that they were there. Would they have a case for saying it was DWDC as you should always be aware of other traffic around you?

[Dave20046]

On a related note, I've always wondered what the police's view would be if they were following you on blue lights and because of not having mirrors, you failed to notice that they were there. Would they have a case for saying it was DWDC as you should always be aware of other traffic around you?
Why would you not?!
You would pull in lol.
On a slightly relevant note to your post, do emergency services mind if you follow them when they clear the traffic?

[the_lone_wolf]

On a related note, I've always wondered what the police's view would be if they were following you on blue lights and because of not having mirrors, you failed to notice that they were there. Would they have a case for saying it was DWDC as you should always be aware of other traffic around you?

never had trouble hearing an ambulance siren whilst on my KTM, even with the akra pipe...

[Ceri JC]

Why would you not?!

If you didn't hear them: occassionally you'll see blue lights w/o sirens, you might not have reason to do a proper over the shoulder observation (rather than blindspot check) for some time so could miss their presence. If they were chasing someone else, I can't imagine much would come of it, but if they were attempting to pull you and you were oblivious to them, I can't imagine it'd endear them to you when they finally did get you to pull over! :)

NB: I have ridden without mirrors in the past and don't think it's particularly dangerous, but my fear of not seeing blue lights is the main reason why I don't do it more regularly.

You would pull in lol.
On a slightly relevant note to your post, do emergency services mind if you follow them when they clear the traffic?

No, they absolutley hate it.

[custard]

No, they absolutley hate it.

not to mention it is bloody dangerous!

[Dave20046]

It'd be very hard not to hear them, and like you say I wouldn't try it anyway as when they do finally pull you they'll check your bike inside out.


Oops, I'd never do it on a car (bit dangerous) I know it's illegal just wondered what they thought.

[Ceri JC]

It'd be very hard not to hear them, and like you say I wouldn't try it anyway as when they do finally pull you they'll check your bike inside out..

Perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly:
I wasn't proposing you use not having mirrors as an excuse for not seeing them (and presumably trying to get away!), nor was I suggesting you can't hear sirens (even with a loud zorst and earplugs, you can still hear them when they're near). I meant situations where an emergency vehicle was only running blue lights (no sirens), which happens quite regularly (late at night, for example) and you were genuinely unaware of their presence because you didn't have mirrors.

[Dave20046]

Perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly:
I wasn't proposing you use not having mirrors as an excuse for not seeing them (and presumably trying to get away!), nor was I suggesting you can't hear sirens (even with a loud zorst and earplugs, you can still hear them when they're near). I meant situations where an emergency vehicle was only running blue lights (no sirens), which happens quite regularly (late at night, for example) and you were genuinely unaware of their presence because you didn't have mirrors.
ohhhhh sorry. In that case if it's genuine I'm sure they'll recognise that umm and arr as to whether it's legal call a colleague and ask him to (heaven forbid) read the law on the matter and then send you on your way.

[ophic]

Perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly:
I wasn't proposing you use not having mirrors as an excuse for not seeing them (and presumably trying to get away!), nor was I suggesting you can't hear sirens (even with a loud zorst and earplugs, you can still hear them when they're near). I meant situations where an emergency vehicle was only running blue lights (no sirens), which happens quite regularly (late at night, for example) and you were genuinely unaware of their presence because you didn't have mirrors.
Still wouldn't happen. The blue flashing lights are very bright and light up everything surrounding in blue. You don't have to be looking at them. If you can't see that then you're probably the one they're coming for.

[Stig]

Hmmm.

I have held up a police car with flashing lights ablaze on the motorway myself. I was errr busting for a wee wee and was totally uninterested in anything behind me and only concerned where and when the hell the next junction was going to arrive. It was at night. I saw no lights infront of me to indicate anything at all was behind me. Not until the police car was nearly parked on my rear wheel. Only then did I see the white flashing of his alternating main beam lights in front of me. I still saw no flashing blue or red.

I pulled over and the police car sped by with the passenger police officer shaking his head with a frown. I just looked across and then went back to thinking about where the hell the next junction was.

[Sosha]

Hmmm.

I have held up a police car with flashing lights ablaze on the motorway myself. I was errr busting for a wee wee and was totally uninterested in anything behind me and only concerned where and when the hell the next junction was going to arrive. It was at night. I saw no lights infront of me to indicate anything at all was behind me. Not until the police car was nearly parked on my rear wheel. Only then did I see the white flashing of his alternating main beam lights in front of me. I still saw no flashing blue or red.

I pulled over and the police car sped by with the passenger police officer shaking his head with a frown. I just looked across and then went back to thinking about where the hell the next junction was.

That's why God invented the hard shoulder...

[charris]

As far as I know you can ride without mirrors on a bike, but if you have mirrors they have to be in working order.

[Lozzo]

Its usually the only way you get notification of a cyclist hurtling past at warp speed just as the lights are changing.

So I guess that murderous rather than suicidal is the correct term

If they bother you, catch them up and then kick them off.

When I get into London's West End I normally pull the mirrors on my road bike in so they don't get whacked when I'm filtering.

[Lozzo]

On a related note, I've always wondered what the police's view would be if they were following you on blue lights and because of not having mirrors, you failed to notice that they were there. Would they have a case for saying it was DWDC as you should always be aware of other traffic around you?


Simply explain in an Italian accent "butta, what'sa behind doesn'ta matter"

[Lozzo]

That's why God invented the hard shoulder...

It's really funny watching a girl trying to have a squat and wobble behind the armco when she's still dressed in leathers and helmet

[Stig]

That's why God invented the hard shoulder...

That's not what the highway code or the police say. :wink:

[Frank]

I know whats behind me.
Ive just gone past them

[Sean_C]

After riding with crap bar end mirrors, I'd rather have no mirrors than crap mirrors.

[-Ralph-]

Simply explain in an Italian accent "butta, what'sa behind doesn'ta matter"

I went with an Italian mate at uni to buy a VW Golf, first thing he did on pulling out the garage was rip off the rear view mirror, and thats almost exactly what he said when he saw the expression on my face.

[-Ralph-]

It's really funny watching a girl trying to have a squat and wobble behind the armco when she's still dressed in leathers and helmet

Flashing high beam at them and beeping the horn is even funnier :twisted:

[joshmac]

Perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly:
I wasn't proposing you use not having mirrors as an excuse for not seeing them (and presumably trying to get away!), nor was I suggesting you can't hear sirens (even with a loud zorst and earplugs, you can still hear them when they're near). I meant situations where an emergency vehicle was only running blue lights (no sirens), which happens quite regularly (late at night, for example) and you were genuinely unaware of their presence because you didn't have mirrors.
Surely they'd blip the sirens at you if you were holding them up, no? :confused:

[Lozzo]

Flashing high beam at them and beeping the horn is even funnier :twisted:

I remember my ex-wife trying to do just that when we were on a long trip once. I pulled into the hard shoulder and she hopped over the barrier, next thing I know there's a long scream as she rolled down the hill through thorn bushes with her knickers and jeans round her ankles still doing her business as she went.

I swear I had never laughed so much in my life

[metalmonkey]

Surely they'd blip the sirens at you if you were holding them up, no? :confused:

Yes thats what da bull horn is for. I don't know about many other folks, on the bike I don't use my mirrors a great deal, I can do shoulder checks for blind spot. I want to see what in front of me, I do glance into them once in a while.

When I drive I use all the mirrors all the time, I like to know what around me. I do what works me, which may not work others.