First ever ride, was i in the wrong? (diagram included)

[Magnum]

I went on my first ride today on my own since my cbt and a little extra training. I've covered about 40 miles this morning, pretty much going where the road took me. I accidently went on to a dual carriageway, but this wasn't too much of a problem since the speed limit was 50 and 40 and only carried on for a few hundred yards before i could turn off at the next lights. (i wanted to build up my high speed confidence on single carriageways before i attempt dual carriageways)
I only messed up once at a crossroads junction where two cars in front of me were waiting in the middle of the road to turn right, and i held back although i was over the line next to the traffic lights. The lights changed back to red and i was the wrong side of the line although i was not in anyones way. Whoops - i guess everyone does it at some point and i took it in my stride.
Overall i enjoyed the ride, i was quite relaxed and confident for most of the ride and kept my speeds on the single carriagways at ones i was comfortable with, and did not at any point feel pressured by the idiot car drivers up my ar'se in a 30 zone when i was travelling dead on 30.

The problem i had was at a give way junction at a flat mini roundabout. The diagram below shows me at the bottom left slowing down to a near stop looking who i should give way for. I can see car 'A' on the left, who has to let me go. I can also see car 'C' who i would have to let go if he was in the position of car 'B' since he is indicating right. I assume since car 'B' is not indicating right, she will go straight ahead, so therefore i do not give way to a car going straight on. But she decides to turn right without indicating when i was at the point labelled 'Y', she was positioned at the point 'X' and had to slam on her brakes. It wasn't a near miss for me or her because we both saw eachother and i carried straight ahead shaking my head.
Heres the diagram:

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t25/Magnum0/giveway1.jpg


I was not in the wrong was i?

[fizzwheel]

Well to me I'd be inclined to say that you werent in the wrong, and as you didnt get knocked off theres a lesson to put down to experience, you're new to riding, your going to find alot of situations like this, dont worry its quite natural its a steep learning curve when you start out on the road.

I assume since car 'B' is not indicating right, she will go straight ahead

Assuming stuff is bad, but theres a fine line between assuing and sitting at a junction and never going anywhere because you are always thinking what if

Golden rules for motorcycling

1. treat everybody else like a complete moron
2. Always expect the unexpected
3. Always keep an escape route in mind

[vardypeeps]

No not at all! Drivers should signal their intentions with an indicator.
Same rules apply for mini roundabouts as large one's.
I think that was just the numpty driver situation.

If car 'C' was in 'B's position you would give way as it is turning right which you are aware of due to the indicator.

Just be carful and it might have been worth looking at the driver of car 'B' to get an idea of where they where heading as in position of hands on steering wheel and which way they where looking at the time.

[plowsie]

Assumption is the mother of all feck ups!

You were right, from what you could see, maybe she had a blown bulb though? You can't tell from your position. I'm not saying expect every car at a roundabout to go right, you'll get nowhere, just be aware.

[Magnum]

Yeah that's why i assumed. I couldn't just sit there untill every car had gone. What i've learnt though is that i could have looked at the position of the car more and the drivers hands on the wheel. I did keep my eye on her side of the road though, so i quickly knew her intentions when i was nearly accross.
If she had a blown bulb she should not be driving it on the road! (it's only not her fault if she didn't know)

[vardypeeps]

Plowsie is right regarding the blown bulb thing but the others should have still worked but faster?

I hate roundabouts!

[RichT]

I agree with Fizz... I don't think you were in the wrong and I'd put it down to experience. The car turning right should have signalled their intent, but you can't expect them to do that or even trust that's what they're going to do when they signal....

[Warthog]

I have had this before myself, it is not your fault at all. But the thing is, after a while you tend to get a sixth sense about these things, and now I seem to be able to tell when a car is going to turn despite indicating. Look for tiny hints like:

a) The car slowing down more than you would if you were going straight on.
b) Drivers hands going over the top of the steering wheel, indicating they are about to haul on it and turn.
c) Drivers head and eyes looking to their right.

So don't beat yourself up, it wasn't your fault, but you need to be hyper alert cos you are in a fragile position.

[hovis]

I assume since car 'B' is not indicating right, she will go straight ahead,

SOAP: Oh, you assume, do ya? What do they say about assumption being the brother of all ****-ups?

TOM: It's the mother of ****-ups, stupid!

SOAP: Well, excuse me, brother, mother or any other sucker, doesn't make any difference, they are still ****ing guns, and they still fire ****ing bullets!

.


also, bikes and cars dont always think they have to go around these type of roundabouts, weather its right or wrong is not the point, a car will always win.

[Magnum]

Thanks for the advice people, i'll keep an eye out for retards and look for less obvious signals.

[Dicky Ticker]

Never take somebody Else's indicators as gospel----only take it as a true intention when you see the wheel turn in the direction indicated.
People often forget to indicate and the self canceling doesn't always work.
NEVER take no indication at a roundabout as intention of going straight on,all traffic is going round to the right unless otherwise indicating
A vehicle should indicate at/from the junction before his intended exit on the roundabout but road position is often a better clue as to their intentions

YOU ARE INVISIBLE AND NOBODY CAN SEE YOU

[plowsie]

Blown bulb is a lazy thing, lots of people have them and sometimes don't know, cars usually are quite obvious when an indicator has blown cos they're ticker goes on and on very annoyingly. However, how many cars do you see driving with 1 headlight, I see at least one every night...

Best thing to do is expect the unexpected, and plan an escape.

I had a similar situation last night with a minicab van sorta thing, it was on a large roundabout in the middle lane, the lanes go all way round to where he wanted to go, I end up on outside line but faster than him en route to be going round outside of him, indicator on, 'I'm coming into your lane mate!', I'm to far across my lane IMO, and ultimately I know I'm in his blind spot straight away, a twist of the throttle and I'm and almost in front but enough for him to see me next to him, let alone, hear me.

I was in the wrong totally, but was able to get myself out of it safely.

EDIT: P.S. Love the diagram :)

[Ceri JC]

I had a v. similar experience when I was learning, except it was even worse; car b was was actually indicating like he'd take the first exit and even started to turn towards it. I committed to going, at which point he cancelled the signal and veered back onto the roundabout. I threw on the brakes and ended somehome sliding onto the tank and managing to rip my jeans and cut my leg on the RHS handlebar! Not your fault, but you could almost certainly of avoided it (and with a bit of experience you'll learn to avoid it). It'd also of been messy with the insurance if he'd hit you and you didn't have witnesses in your favour; even with witnesses I imagine you'd be looking at 50:50 blame in their eyes.

In my experience only about 50% of people on roundabouts indicate at all and only 25% indicate correctly. I adopt the IAM maxim; "all a flashing indicator tells you is that someone's indicator is working". It's just a hint as to what they might do next; nothing definate. Glad you escaped unharmed.

[Baph]

I haven't read the whole thread, only the OP.

An indicator tells you one thing, and one thing only. That the bulb works. The driver might of caught the stick & put the indicator on by accident. They might forget to indicate at all.

Yes, they turned right without indicating - assuming there were no faults with their indicators, they did something wrong.

You also did something wrong by assuming they were driving perfectly.

Watch the wheels, if the wheels point forwards, the car will be going forwards. Also watch the drivers eyes.

At the end of the day though, so long as no-one got hurt, there's no need to stress about it. Learn from it & move on.

[Lozzo]

I have had this before myself, it is not your fault at all. But the thing is, after a while you tend to get a sixth sense about these things, and now I seem to be able to tell when a car is going to turn despite indicating. Look for tiny hints like:



1. Is there a male or female driving? If either of these two genders then excercise caution as both are as stupid as each other.

2. Are the wheels of the car pointing straight ahead or turned slightly? In either case ignore them and treat the male or female driver as a potential assassin.

3. Is the driver looking directly at you? If so regard them with contempt and assume they are simply lining you up in their sights for an easy hit.

4. Are the car's indicators flashing? If so assume they have forgotten which side the windscreen wiper stalk is on and hit the indicators by accident.


Only ever assume the worse possible scenario.

[DanAbnormal]

Never assume anything, least of all when it's regarding other road users. I did this a few times when I was starting out, I just expected that everyone on the road had a clue. Boy was I wrong. Stick to that and you'll be right. ;)

[ThEGr33k]

If you are ever in a situation where you arnt sure always go for the safe option and presume they are about to do something stupid... They often do tbh!

[glade]

http://static.dropline.net/cats/images/Use-The-Force.jpg

[Magnum]

That pic above doesnt work.

[missyburd]

At least you didn't end up being in the wrong place on realizing she was turning so this can all be added to the chapter that is the learning curve in the book of experience :)

Loving the diagram too :mrgreen:


If she had a blown bulb she should not be driving it on the road! (it's only not her fault if she didn't know)
Am I right in thinking a car driver is supposed to give hand signals (as a biker would) when wishing to indicate assuming they know their indicator bulb is blown?

[Woz]

Am I right in thinking a car driver is supposed to give hand signals (as a biker would) when wishing to indicate assuming they know their indicator bulb is blown?

You'd be right in thinking they should, but very wrong if you think they would.

[missyburd]

You'd be right in thinking they should, but very wrong if you think they would.
I see. Ta for clearing that up :)

[bris]

Sorry m8 but the short answer is yes you were in the wrong. Once a car enters that roundabout you need to be 100% certain where its going. If you are going to be watching peoples indicators all the time you will learn the hard way. one of the first things an instructor will tell you is to ignore indicators or the lack of them because people often make mistakes with them. Its up to you to know exactly where that vehicle is going before you commit to your move.
Yes i know its very very annoying when the muppet decides to turn right but its something you get an instinct for with time.

[Ceri JC]

Am I right in thinking a car driver is supposed to give hand signals (as a biker would) when wishing to indicate assuming they know their indicator bulb is blown?

Yes, but unfortunately, in an age where most drivers don't even know the slow down signal, the chances of them knowing the hand signals for turning (even if they wanted to bother, which most wouldn't) are exceedingly slim.

[Dave20046]

As has been said in theory you did nothing wrong she has to give way to what's coming to the right just like you did before you joined the roundabout. Her not indicating efficiently just proves more she was wrong.

[Dave20046]

Yes, but unfortunately, in an age where most drivers don't even know the slow down signal, the chances of them knowing the hand signals for turning (even if they wanted to bother, which most wouldn't) are exceedingly slim.
oops, what's the slow signal???

[Woz]

Sorry m8 but the short answer is yes you were in the wrong. Once a car enters that roundabout you need to be 100% certain where its going.


But going off the diagram, the bike was already on the roundabout too, so the car shouldn't have suddenly turned. If both vehicles entered the roundabout at the same time, then the car should have turned behind the bike. The clue is in the name... it's a ROUNDabout, not a STRAIGHTACROSSabout.

[ophic]

Sorry m8 but the short answer is yes you were in the wrong.
"Wrong" isn't the right word. You incorrectly assumed that someone else was doing something right. It happens. You have to make some assumptions or you'd never get anywhere. All you can do is be very careful and learn all you can.

I have to watch out these days cos I do so many motorway miles, I've lost all my "town instincts".

[Dappa D]

magnum, good to see your out on the road mate getting the experience we chatted about! (guess u got the cg?)

lots of good advice here, i completely agree with fizz, dont assume anything, treat all other road users like morons etc.....

it comes with experience knowing how to read the road.....however....in theory no fella u were not in the wrong

[Magnum]

magnum, good to see your out on the road mate getting the experience we chatted about! (guess u got the cg?)

lots of good advice here, i completely agree with fizz, dont assume anything, treat all other road users like morons etc.....

it comes with experience knowing how to read the road.....however....in theory no fella u were not in the wrong

Yep i got the cg on tuesday (theres pics of it in the photos section), went out for a 46 mile ride on thursday, and today i'm going to do even more miles since i'm leaving in about 2 mins.

I'm glad i had the opportunity to learn safely, and not have an off on my first day. I learnt the easy way.

[bris]

[quote=Woz;1790390]But going off the diagram, the bike was already on the roundabout too, so the car shouldn't have suddenly turned. [quote]
According to the diagram neither are on the roundabout. Mini roundabouts are very small so in this position the bike should have been watching where car A is going, as its to his right it takes priority. If there was a collision at this incident the bike would have been deemed to have failed to give way, indicator or not.

[Woz]

[quote=bris;1790523According to the diagram neither are on the roundabout. [/quote]

According to the diagram, positions X and Y are both beyond where the give way lines would be and therefore are BOTH on the roundabout.

[-Ralph-]

I'm not reading all the blurb 'cos I'm about to go to bed, but I read your initial post.

IMO you were not at fault, but everything that happens to you on a bike is your responsibility. You should have anticipated the driver could turn without indicating. Keep an eagle eye on it and keep your distance. The other driver saw you, but had he/she tried to make the move faster, get across in front of you or not seen you at all it could have been a different story.

Get yourself a copy of this http://www.amazon.com/Motorcycle-Roadcraft-Phillip-Coyne/dp/011341143X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1235086865&sr=8-2 and read from cover to cover, it's hard going but worth it for the advice you will pick up (anyone who wants to start quoting me and arguing that a book won't make you a good rider, go right ahead, I'm not going to read any more posts in this thread anyway).

And remember that a flashing indicator means that the bulb is working and no indicator means watch it like a hawk.

And take your time.....!