View Full Version : Why Don't They Teach Active Counter Steering?
I'm_a_Newbie
24-02-09, 05:18 PM
Since I passed my bike test the most important skill I have learned is active counter steering.
Why do they not teach you this skill when you are learning to ride and make it a skill that must be mastered and examined on the bike test.
I am sure many more bikers would be alive today if they had the confidence to use it.
I bet many new riders have never even heard of it, l was the same until I read an article on it in MCN and the superbike school.
Tim.
I may be mistaken, but I think the new test (or teaching syllabus) does actually cover it.
edit: or at least mentions it.
Well, the good schools do teach it (at least mine did and I think they were good....)
And everybody counter steers whether they think about it or not - it's the only possible way to go round corners! How could you test it?
They attempted to teach me that whilst I was learning, but it was on a 125 which felt way too unstable for my liking so I never really embraced the technique untill I got the SV and someone on here reminded me about it!
custard
24-02-09, 06:13 PM
mine taught it...
...but mine did not.
I learned it on here. And when I did the IAM thing.
I did it, was actually almost one of the first things I was told when we went out on the 500s
dual-power sv
24-02-09, 06:37 PM
yea the new 2phase test requires you to beable to countersteer so as you can do an avsive manouver, just done my ERS and they were telling me about it
I was taught it on my CBT. It's not really sometig you conciously do, i just happens when leaning the bike. My instrctor explained countestering, then when i got back on the bike i realised i was doing it anyway, i just understood it more. The new test covers countersteering aparanty.
It's not really sometig you conciously do, i just happens when leaning the bike.
That's counter steering. Active counter steering is, IMO, different.
Active counter steering is using the bars/clip-ons to produce the effect of the bike leaning over rapidly - as above, usually when taking evasive action (flick one side then the other, not cornering).
You can lean the bike over without consciously moving the bars/clip-ons, just that it doesn't come over anywhere near as quickly.
I know of a few riders, and very good riders at that, who are still unsure about whether counter steering even exists!
jimmy__riddle
24-02-09, 07:12 PM
That's counter steering. Active counter steering is, IMO, different.
Active counter steering is using the bars/clip-ons to produce the effect of the bike leaning over rapidly - as above, usually when taking evasive action (flick one side then the other, not cornering).
You can lean the bike over without consciously moving the bars/clip-ons, just that it doesn't come over anywhere near as quickly.
I know of a few riders, and very good riders at that, who are still unsure about whether counter steering even exists!
i think its just a case of turning, or turning quicker. its the same thing, but people just like to talk about it as an advanced technique.
I know of a few riders, and very good riders at that, who are still unsure about whether counter steering even exists!
I guess not everybody has a head for physics.
Doesnt really matter what you believe you just need to be shown. If you do this then this happens.....
I think counter steering is just like a lot of riding technique, everybody has their own particular style and way of doing things. This is what track days are particularly good for.
Ahem, i may sound a bit silly askin this but hope i dont, what is counter steering? so if i lean right and turn the bars right a bit is that it?
Ahem, i may sound a bit silly askin this but hope i dont, what is counter steering? so if i lean right and turn the bars right a bit is that it?
Well, thats the point. They dont turn right, they turn left until the bike is leaned over and then they straighten to some extent.
Imagine you were riding along and you were to push gently on the right hand bar (turning the wheel slightly to the left as a result) then the bike would lean right. The more forcefully you do this the faster the bike will lean up until the point that you fall off.
So, with a little practice you can force the bike to get to its desired lean angle for a corner quicker than it would otherwise.
In practice there is another area covering applying pressure to the footpegs. Personally in my experience I dont think this achieves much at all. I find that I can acheive better results by forceably moving my body weight to the inside of a lean and the rest happens naturally.
fizzwheel
24-02-09, 07:59 PM
So, with a little practice you can force the bike to get to its desired lean angle for a corner quicker than it would otherwise.
Which is disconcerting if your a new rider or not expecting it to react that way and thats why I suspect most riding schools dont teach it when you're doing your DAS.
It took me ages to get my head around what was going on with counter steering. I know some very experienced riders that dont get it.
You do it naturally anyway without thinking about it. All you doing is exaggerating the effect by pushing the bars to get the desired reaction.
Which is disconcerting if your a new rider or not expecting it to react that way and thats why I suspect most riding schools dont teach it when you're doing your DAS.
It took me ages to get my head around what was going on with counter steering. I know some very experienced riders that dont get it.
You do it naturally anyway without thinking about it. All you doing is exaggerating the effect by pushing the bars to get the desired reaction.
+1 you have enough to think about during bike lessons without this scrambling your brains :-)
It wasnt until I had my Police bike course that I knew about C/S. But like others you do it with out thinking about.
Ch00
speedplay
24-02-09, 09:09 PM
My instructor told me about it after my cbt.
He said to me that it wasnt something they teach on cbt level as it can be too much for new riders.
Its taught on pre test and advanced lessons at the school I went to.
I dont understand how pushing the bars left will drop the bike quicker to the right and vice versa but I do know it works:confused:
I dont understand how pushing the bars left will drop the bike quicker to the right and vice versa but I do know it works:confused:
If you were riding in a straight line and you very quickly pushed the right hand bar forward as far and as fast as you could you would fall off. Which side do you think you would fall?
speedplay
24-02-09, 09:22 PM
If you were riding in a straight line and you very quickly pushed the right hand bar forward as far and as fast as you could you would fall off. Which side do you think you would fall?
Theroretically you would fall off on the right (assuming the bike didnt fall away from under you and pitch you over the front) as counter steering isnt about pushing the bar all the way forwards....
Through my own experience its about subtle steering on a bike is part of what keeps you alive ;)
Theroretically you would fall off on the right (assuming the bike didnt fall away from under you and pitch you over the front) as counter steering isnt about pushing the bar all the way forwards....
Through my own experience its about subtle steering on a bike is part of what keeps you alive ;)
No, but what happens with a hefty input still applies when you scale it all back down to realistic levels.
It's like balancing a sweeping brush on its end on your palm. If you want to move the whole brush to your left, first you have to move your hand to the right. That makes it lean to the left, and you can follow it. Then when you want to straighten it up, you move your hand even faster to the left.
This is the essence of countersteering. The bars move, the front wheel goes where you steer it and the bike "wants" to topple over. Thankfully the gyroscopic effect does help to keep us upright at higher speeds, but countersteering does work at walking pace too, just not in the same unnoticeable way, and because it isn't always needed people think there's a magic switch over speed. But remember it next time you're doing 3mph and making small (or not so small) steering inputs to keep yourself from having to put a foot down.
Theroretically you would fall off on the right (assuming the bike didnt fall away from under you and pitch you over the front) as counter steering isnt about pushing the bar all the way forwards....
Through my own experience its about subtle steering on a bike is part of what keeps you alive ;)
Thats my point though and it answers your own question. Obviously you wouldnt push the bar all the way forwards, but pushing it forwards a certain amount and at a certain speed will lean the bike down faster. Thats active counter steering.
It explains why the bike would lean one way or the other.
Counter steering is a technique we use regularly in racing, particularly in fast direction changes.
oooo its still a bit fuzzy but i think i under stand, does it only apply on fastish corners because ive noticed if i lean right round a roundabout etc i turn the bars right.
ive noticed if i lean right round a roundabout etc i turn the bars right.
think about what you really do. do you actually try and turn the bars in the direction you are turning or do you just assume thats what happens.
Your bike leans and turns in that direction but you probably dont actually turn the bars to the same direction. Unless you were going very very slowly (like turning the bike around in your garden) you would likely fall off towards the outside of the turn if you turned the front wheel in the direction you wanted to go.
If you approached a right hand turn at say 30 mph and turned the front wheel to the right you would likely fall off to the left. Unconciously you are at first countersteeing and then straightening the bars as by this point the bike is settled into an attitude that will take it around a corner (leaning). Towards the end of the turn you will turn the wheel into the turn direction to bring the bike more upright.
It sounds bizarre but thats how a bike travels around a corner.
theshed
24-02-09, 11:31 PM
looked at this with lots of clips on youtube putting it into practice is another thing and something i think only experience will give me however if someone can fasttrack me then that would be magic but for anyone who has never heard of it then type it into youtube and you will see lots of examples that explain it really well
think about what you really do. do you actually try and turn the bars in the direction you are turning or do you just assume thats what happens.
Your bike leans and turns in that direction but you probably dont actually turn the bars to the same direction. Unless you were going very very slowly (like turning the bike around in your garden) you would likely fall off towards the outside of the turn if you turned the front wheel in the direction you wanted to go.
If you approached a right hand turn at say 30 mph and turned the front wheel to the right you would likely fall off to the left. Unconciously you are at first countersteeing and then straightening the bars as by this point the bike is settled into an attitude that will take it around a corner (leaning). Towards the end of the turn you will turn the wheel into the turn direction to bring the bike more upright.
It sounds bizarre but thats how a bike travels around a corner.
Yeah, the actual positive steering angle applied whilst in a steady state of lean/roll (on a medium speed long corner f'rinstance) is minimal, tiny, and you most certainly aren't countersteering all the way around.
Countersteering is what you simply have to do to adjust the angle of roll/lean, every time you adjust the angle of roll/lean. Be it into a corner, during a corner, or leaving a corner.
think about what you really do. do you actually try and turn the bars in the direction you are turning or do you just assume thats what happens.
Your bike leans and turns in that direction but you probably dont actually turn the bars to the same direction.
i suppose i dont make them do it but they do appear to turn right a bit but only if for example im on a 12 oclock 3 oclock 6 oclock 9 oclock round about and ive come from 6 oclock and want to go to 3 oclock ( if you no what i mean)
oooo its still a bit fuzzy but i think i under stand, does it only apply on fastish corners because ive noticed if i lean right round a roundabout etc i turn the bars right.
The lean is a function of the turn: you don't lean if you want to turn, you lean because you are turning.
Just watched a vid i think i understand it now watching the man he was basicly turnin the oposite way before he turned the way he wanted to go, to simplify is it just like a scandinavian flick?
Yeah, the actual positive steering angle applied whilst in a steady state of lean/roll (on a medium speed long corner f'rinstance) is minimal, tiny, and you most certainly aren't countersteering all the way around.
Countersteering is what you simply have to do to adjust the angle of roll/lean, every time you adjust the angle of roll/lean. Be it into a corner, during a corner, or leaving a corner.
thats exactly right, you only counter steer to enter, adjust or leave the turn. its necessary whenever you need to adjust the bikes lean up or down.
Once in a turn there will be a very minor (depending on actual speed) turn on the front wheel towards the corner direction. The centrifugal force to the outside of the turn is balanced against the lean ( constant falling into the turn).
... to simplify is it just like a scandinavian flick?
isnt that a move in a porn movie? :cool:
The lean is a function of the turn: you don't lean if you want to turn, you lean because you are turning.
Wrong way around. You turn because you're leaning. The weight of the bike combined with the friction of the tyres forces you to turn the corner.
isnt that a move in a porn movie? :cool:
Sounds like it :P
Like in a car where before turning turn it oposite and then turn it the right way quickly in order to corner better
The lean is a function of the turn: you don't lean if you want to turn, you lean because you are turning.
Wrong way around. You turn because you're leaning. The weight of the bike combined with the friction of the tyres forces you to turn the corner.
I think (I hope) we actually mean the same thing. Some folk think they lean the bike over to turn, but you don't. You counter steer which due to the profile of the tyre leans the bike over. Bit chicken and egg, but what I mean was somebody (Superbike School?) have a machine with a fixed handlebar and it is alleged that you cannot get it to go anywhere other than in a straight line, however much you "lean off".
Gotta steer first before anything happens.
DeeHawk
25-02-09, 07:45 AM
Active countersteering is only done consciously, were as regular turning or countersteering happens because it's the only way to turn you bike.
Active countersteering is luckily mandatory teaching by all instructors in Denmark. You have to use it to make a proper U-turn at the final test, too.
Dappa D
25-02-09, 08:27 AM
i was taught it on my das, we spent a good half hour going up and down one twisty road, not tested on it but got good advice and had cracked it after the half hour
Dave20046
25-02-09, 09:26 AM
oooo its still a bit fuzzy but i think i under stand, does it only apply on fastish corners because ive noticed if i lean right round a roundabout etc i turn the bars right.
The way I think about it is think as if you've got a freeze frame of a bike going round a left hand corner cranked over and you've taken a picture from the gear lever area at the contact of the front tyre on the road. If you were to turn the steering left the front most of the wheel starts to make more contact with the tarmac and starts to lever you up more upright if you turn the bars right the contact point get pushed to the back and the angle gets deeper.
Might not helps some but it makes perfect sense if I imagine it like that.
plowsie
25-02-09, 09:47 AM
[Cat amongst pigeons mode] So whats counter-counter steering :rolleyes: [/Cat amongst pigeons mode]
Mwahahahahaha (http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=98517&highlight=counter+steering+baph)
Active countersteering is luckily mandatory teaching by all instructors in Denmark. You have to use it to make a proper U-turn at the final test, too.
I thought counter steering only kicks in at a certain speed, about 12- 15mph I believe. Anything under that and you turn the way you point the handlebars ie on a u -turn, surely you can't counter steer on a u-turn.
I thought counter steering only kicks in at a certain speed, about 12- 15mph I believe. Anything under that and you turn the way you point the handlebars ie on a u -turn, surely you can't counter steer on a u-turn.
Popular misconception. You can initiate a lean with the steering at any speed. At really low speed the forces are gentle (as are our turns usually) and we can use our body weight to balance more easily, but that doesn't mean you can't adjust the angle of that lean with the steering (in the same way that you can stay at upright at 1mph by making steering inputs). There is no magical change-over, it's just that once you are at a higher speed it (c/s) becomes the only way to initiate a turn.
ThEGr33k
25-02-09, 03:37 PM
Im quite good at understanding things... kinda worked it out tbh :D Go me :p
I dont often do it consciously, I can lean fast enough without forcing the bike to do it, though im a pretty strong little git so maybe im putting in a lot of effort of the bat?, and dont need to think about it...
Dave20046
25-02-09, 05:46 PM
Im quite good at understanding things... kinda worked it out tbh :D Go me :p
I dont often do it consciously, I can lean fast enough without forcing the bike to do it, though im a pretty strong little git so maybe im putting in a lot of effort of the bat?, and dont need to think about it...
'lean' ? :confused:
...I'm getting there :roll:
I'm_a_Newbie
26-02-09, 04:12 PM
That's counter steering. Active counter steering is, IMO, different.
Active counter steering is using the bars/clip-ons to produce the effect of the bike leaning over rapidly - as above, usually when taking evasive action (flick one side then the other, not cornering).
You can lean the bike over without consciously moving the bars/clip-ons, just that it doesn't come over anywhere near as quickly.
I know of a few riders, and very good riders at that, who are still unsure about whether counter steering even exists!
That's exactly what I mean, using Active Counter Steering I can flip from a left lean to a right with no effort at all. Before I discovered this my cornering manouvers were far slower as I was using more of my body weight to try and get the bike to lean.
Biker Biggles
26-02-09, 04:18 PM
My understanding of this dark art is this---
We all counter steer all the time or the bike would not go round corners and we would fall off.
Active counter steering is a much more positive and deliberate push on the bars to make it happen far quicker than just riding without thinking about it.Just more of the same really.
I'm_a_Newbie
26-02-09, 04:23 PM
My instructor told me about it after my cbt.
He said to me that it wasnt something they teach on cbt level as it can be too much for new riders.
Its taught on pre test and advanced lessons at the school I went to.
I dont understand how pushing the bars left will drop the bike quicker to the right and vice versa but I do know it works:confused:
I couldn't disagree more, not with you but the policy of not teaching it on a CBT. The whole reason I started this post was because I was following a moped rider a few weeks ago who was a very inexperienced rider. We were going through a tight S bend and I could see he was desperate to show off his skills to me but was nervous at the same time. I decided to hang back and as we went through the S bend he was hanging off the scooter to try and get round the bend. He veered right across the road which forced him to take the second part of the blind bend on the wrong side of the road. Luckily for him nothing was coming around the bend at the time. I went round the bends at the same speed and could have done it a lot faster, but as I used Active Counter Steering I stayed on the correct side of the road.
If he had been taught Active Counter Steering on his CBT this would not have happened.
speedplay
26-02-09, 04:29 PM
But thats just riding beyond ability.
fizzwheel
26-02-09, 04:30 PM
If he had been taught Active Counter Steering on his CBT this would not have happened.
He could avoided it in the first place, by not deciding to impress you with his "skillz" its much better to not get into a mess in the first place than to rely on techniques to get you out of a mess you should'nt have got into in the first place.
Thing it with Active Counter Steering if does make the bike change direction very quickly. I had enough to cope with on my CBT with just working out what on earth was going on let alone trying to get my head round physics and gyroscopic forces at work. I really dont think I would have taken it in. I taught myself it in the end...
speedplay
26-02-09, 04:34 PM
The thing with a CBT is that a lot of the people (not all) doing them have never even touched a bike before.
If you try to teach them too much its not going to do them any good to start with.
speedplay
26-02-09, 04:37 PM
I couldn't disagree more, not with you but the policy of not teaching it on a CBT. The whole reason I started this post was because I was following a moped rider a few weeks ago who was a very inexperienced rider. We were going through a tight S bend and I could see he was desperate to show off his skills to me but was nervous at the same time. I decided to hang back and as we went through the S bend he was hanging off the scooter to try and get round the bend. He veered right across the road which forced him to take the second part of the blind bend on the wrong side of the road. Luckily for him nothing was coming around the bend at the time. I went round the bends at the same speed and could have done it a lot faster, but as I used Active Counter Steering I stayed on the correct side of the road.
If he had been taught Active Counter Steering on his CBT this would not have happened.
I'm also guessing that your bike handles a damn sight better than a scooter too...
I'm_a_Newbie
26-02-09, 04:41 PM
He could avoided it in the first place, by not deciding to impress you with his "skillz" its much better to not get into a mess in the first place than to rely on techniques to get you out of a mess you should'nt have got into in the first place.
Thing it with Active Counter Steering if does make the bike change direction very quickly. I had enough to cope with on my CBT with just working out what on earth was going on let alone trying to get my head round physics and gyroscopic forces at work. I really dont think I would have taken it in. I taught myself it in the end...
Again I could not disagree more, had he not been so lucky he would have been killed or seriously injured.
The pont is at 16 and 17 years of age, you have not developed the road skills you need to survive, especially on a bike or moped. Surely teaching this skill will stop inexperienced riders from getting in this type of situation in the first place.
I'm_a_Newbie
26-02-09, 04:46 PM
I'm also guessing that your bike handles a damn sight better than a scooter too...
I doubt it, smaller bikes tend to have a higher cornering speed (escpecially on tight bends), although this is dependent on tyres/suspension/frame design and quality.
speedplay
26-02-09, 04:48 PM
The pont is at 16 and 17 years of age, you have not developed the road skills you need to survive, especially on a bike or moped. Surely teaching this skill will stop inexperienced riders from getting in this type of situation in the first place.
At 16 or 17 most people tend to think they know more than they do anyway.
Thats why casualtys in cars and on bikes in this age range (upto 21 i think but someone on here will correct me if im wrong) outnumber any other age range.
The truth is, everyone has different learning and skill ability.
The DSA have set a criteria for the schools to meet and that is being met.
Sometimes an instructor will give you more info or tips but this is usually based on their opinion of your skill/ability levels.
speedplay
26-02-09, 04:49 PM
I doubt it, smaller bikes tend to have a higher cornering speed (escpecially on tight bends), although this is dependent on tyres/suspension/frame design and quality.
I know riding a scooter scares the hell out of me.
Didnt feel stable at all.
plowsie
26-02-09, 04:49 PM
At 16 or 17 most people tend to think they know more than they do anyway.
Thats why casualtys in cars and on bikes in this age range (upto 21 i think but someone on here will correct me if im wrong) outnumber any onther age range. Insurance prices say your right mate.
:smt010
jimmy__riddle
26-02-09, 05:04 PM
Again I could not disagree more, had he not been so lucky he would have been killed or seriously injured.
The pont is at 16 and 17 years of age, you have not developed the road skills you need to survive, especially on a bike or moped. Surely teaching this skill will stop inexperienced riders from getting in this type of situation in the first place.
as would michael schumaker teaching everyone to drive, im sure he could teach us many advanced skills that would get us out of sticky situations. however you have to teach to your audience, and im sure most people only doing a CBT just want to use it to get from a to b, not ride like rossi.
fizzwheel
26-02-09, 05:06 PM
Again I could not disagree more, had he not been so lucky he would have been killed or seriously injured.
And I'd be inclined to wager if he had ridden around that corner properly i.e sat on the seat not hanging off or riding in the manner you describe i.e "showing off" then he'd have got around it just fine.
Problem is he didnt because he was riding like a muppet... which is why I said its better to not get into a mess in the first place rather than relying on a technique such as active counter steering to get you out of a situation you put yourself into in the first place...
And I'd be inclined to wager if he had ridden around that corner properly i.e sat on the seat not hanging off or riding in the manner you describe i.e "showing off" then he'd have got around it just fine.
Problem is he didnt because he was riding like a muppet... which is why I said its better to not get into a mess in the first place rather than relying on a technique such as active counter steering to get you out of a situation you put yourself into in the first place...
Yep, someone like that (with that mentality) is out to push themselves too hard regardless of their skill level. Teach him countersteering and he'll probably do it, but he'd still be an accident waiting to happen.
speedplay
26-02-09, 05:13 PM
Yep, someone like that (with that mentality) is out to push themselves too hard regardless of their skill level. Teach him countersteering and he'll probably do it, but he'd still be an accident waiting to happen.
And it probably wouldnt just be themselves they hurt either.
Dave20046
26-02-09, 08:47 PM
At 16 or 17 most people tend to think they know more than they do anyway.
Thats why casualtys in cars and on bikes in this age range (upto 21 i think but someone on here will correct me if im wrong) outnumber any other age range.
The truth is, everyone has different learning and skill ability.
The DSA have set a criteria for the schools to meet and that is being met.
Sometimes an instructor will give you more info or tips but this is usually based on their opinion of your skill/ability levels.
Not on bikes, traffic cops target 25-40s. They are the DAS suicidles age group. I had some right fun on my scooter at 16 just plunged myself into deadly situations as by the time you've got to a decent speed it's time to brake suddenly. The handling inspired a bit of confidence though.
If you were riding in a straight line and you very quickly pushed the right hand bar forward as far and as fast as you could you would fall off. Which side do you think you would fall?
Straight ahead. Momentum wouldn't be changed in the slightest.
Straight ahead. Momentum wouldn't be changed in the slightest.
I disagree, you may well fall off in the direction you were travelling but this will be to one side or the other of the bike. I was attempting to illustrate how the bike would react if you did not counter steer and simply turned the bars in the direction of the turn.
If you are travelling at any speed and you do as I mentioned, you would fall off. Try it on a mountain bike or something :)
Drew Carey
27-02-09, 02:10 PM
During my CBT it wasn't explained to me at all. Then upon leaving the school car park we immediately went onto national speed limit A road. The first set of S bends I completely mucked it up and ended up on the wrong side of the road!!!! Luckily, there were no cars. It then made me petrified of it all.
Stopped, chatted to the instructor who then explained it all to me. We then did the road again but this time with him telling me at which points to push on the bars and the twisties were smoother and fun, even on the 125.
I asked why they didn't explain it in the CBT as it could have been so much worse. His response was that due to the size of car park, you can get up to a decent speed and if they see people struggling round the corners in the car park then they address it. He said that I probably did it with out appreciating it and then forgot about it when on the road!!! My view is......teach it.....takes minutes to explain and is easy to demonstrate on the road with the pupil.
My view is......teach it.....takes minutes to explain and is easy to demonstrate on the road with the pupil.
that....and the offside rule in football :-). The worlds two biggest mysteries.
I dont fully understadn counter steering, but i watched a vid and had a little read and i have practiced a few times but im not to sure yet
Drew Carey
27-02-09, 03:40 PM
I dont fully understadn counter steering, but i watched a vid and had a little read and i have practiced a few times but im not to sure yet
Best way to understand is doing it. Next time you get a chance on an straight and clear dual carriageway with lots of room position yourself in the middle of the road. Dont lean at all, sit bolt upright and very gently push on the right handlebar. If you dont understand the concept, you would expect the bike to steer left, but, what will actually happen is that the bike will steer right as you are instigating the lean. Then gently push on the left (and therefore turning wheel right) and you will actually return back to where you were. Once more comfortable, you can use it more proactively and actually steer easier and with more control through the bends. Thats my experiences of it anyhow.
Best way to understand is doing it. Next time you get a chance on an straight and clear dual carriageway with lots of room position yourself in the middle of the road. Dont lean at all, sit bolt upright and very gently push on the right handlebar. If you dont understand the concept, you would expect the bike to steer left, but, what will actually happen is that the bike will steer right as you are instigating the lean. Then gently push on the left (and therefore turning wheel right) and you will actually return back to where you were. Once more comfortable, you can use it more proactively and actually steer easier and with more control through the bends. Thats my experiences of it anyhow.
Thats what i was trying earlier, i'll have a proper go on the way home.
Dicky Ticker
27-02-09, 04:16 PM
Forgive me if I'm wrong but isn't something that you just do naturally? I can never remember being shown or taught countersteer but I know I do it without thinking.
fizzwheel
27-02-09, 04:35 PM
Forgive me if I'm wrong but isn't something that you just do naturally?
Yes it is, otherwise you wouldnt go around corners.
What you can do is push on the bars and exagerate or increase the naturally occuring effect which makes the bike respond to your steering inputs faster.
jimmy__riddle
27-02-09, 04:39 PM
Yes it is, otherwise you wouldnt go around corners.
What you can do is push on the bars and exagerate or increase the naturally occuring effect which makes the bike respond to your steering inputs faster.
i dont really see the 'active' bit, surely all steering is intentional, brought on by using the handle bars. its just a case of turn or turn harder
Drew Carey
27-02-09, 04:47 PM
I agree, in hindsight it is natural. But, when first learning, active counter steering can actually be more beneficial for a relative newbie providing they know how as you feel more in control of cornering. But I guess when you ride for long enough it becomes instinct and you just always do it.
I agree, in hindsight it is natural. But, when first learning, active counter steering can actually be more beneficial for a relative newbie providing they know how as you feel more in control of cornering. But I guess when you ride for long enough it becomes instinct and you just always do it.
I dont have any problem cornering but i think it is something i am gonna look into is all, will let you know results
i dont really see the 'active' bit, surely all steering is intentional, brought on by using the handle bars. its just a case of turn or turn harder
That's mostly true, but there's a distinction between doing something passively and doing something actively. Sort of (almost) like being the captain who calls for the new course to be steered or the helmsman who steers it himself. If you countersteer passively you are still doing it but you're not in control in the same way that you would be if you did it actively. It's like you want to steer and your body makes it happen.
jimmy__riddle
27-02-09, 06:42 PM
It's like you want to steer and your body makes it happen.
as opposed to the bike steering itself round a corner?
as opposed to the bike steering itself round a corner?
lol, well. More as opposed to it not steering at all.
But if people aren't aware of it, or that they do it, or that it even exists, how are they doing it? Not consciously. Don't you think there's a difference? Such a person wouldn't steer a car in the same way.
I was taught it during my DAS.
jimmy__riddle
27-02-09, 07:05 PM
lol, well. More as opposed to it not steering at all.
But if people aren't aware of it, or that they do it, or that it even exists, how are they doing it? Not consciously. Don't you think there's a difference? Such a person wouldn't steer a car in the same way.
i think its a case of leanring how to steer a bike, theres no active or passive countersteering, just steering, just you push harder.
Eg if you have corner x and go round it increasing your speed by 1mph each time the only difference is you steer harder. theres no given point where you suddenly have to start 'actively' counter steering
i think its a case of leanring how to steer a bike, theres no active or passive countersteering, just steering, just you push harder.
Eg if you have corner x and go round it increasing your speed by 1mph each time the only difference is you steer harder. theres no given point where you suddenly have to start 'actively' counter steering
But someone who didn't even know they had to push (or pull) in the countersteering way would never push much harder. They'd get to a point where they thought they were steering as quickly as possible, and that point would be way short of the quickness that someone who was consciously countersteering would achieve.
jimmy__riddle
27-02-09, 07:53 PM
But someone who didn't even know they had to push (or pull) in the countersteering way would never push much harder. They'd get to a point where they thought they were steering as quickly as possible, and that point would be way short of the quickness that someone who was consciously countersteering would achieve.
surely if you didnt know how to turn the bars you couldnt go round a corner!
maybe its cos ive ridden bikes in some form or another from a very young age, but i really dont see what the fuss is about
surely if you didnt know how to turn the bars you couldnt go round a corner!
maybe its cos ive ridden bikes in some form or another from a very young age, but i really dont see what the fuss is about
Not being aware of the pressures you're applying to bars will greatly effect how quickly you can turn your motorcycle, no?
jimmy__riddle
27-02-09, 08:36 PM
Not being aware of the pressures you're applying to bars will greatly effect how quickly you can turn your motorcycle, no?
thats the bit i dont get, surely if youre turning the bars you are aware youre doing something.
i give up, i dont think i will understand why its a big issue.
lukemillar
27-02-09, 09:02 PM
Active countersteering does not make the bike turn faster! It jut makes the rider conscious of the steering process. You could actively countersteer and turn the bike slower than someone who does it unconsciously. The difference is just you know what is going on and therefore can make the decison to turn the bike as fast or as slow as is necessary.
Are countersteering and 'active' countersteering two different things?
fizzwheel
27-02-09, 09:49 PM
Are countersteering and 'active' countersteering two different things?
Whether you countersteer or active countersteer the principle is the same as is the effect. I.e you go around the corner that you are attempting to.
"active countersteering" is exaggerating the natural way you get the bike to turn through a corner thats all. Its the conscious act of pushing on the handlebar that leads most people to refer to it as "active countersteering"
Well thats my take on it anyway...
Nope the underlying principle and effect is the same.
In that case, i was taught this just after my cbt.
I done a little test today on a wide road without many cars on. I was going about 30, in a straight line and i went to turn slightly like you would on a push bike turning the bars the way you want to go. It doesnt work at all and the bike just leans in the opposite direction.
When i go round bends i tend to just pull on the opposite side of the bars i want to turn rather than push.
rockster
28-02-09, 12:42 AM
This has never been properly explained to me, but does it not relate to the gyroscopic forces on the front wheel? At low speeds (eg u turn), pushing on the left bar (or pulling on the right) will make you go right, but at higher speeds, a push on the left bar is plenty to make a lane change to the left.
So, I'm thinking that at higher speeds, when you push the left bar, you're not actually turning the wheel at all, because you're not pushing hard enough to overcome the gyroscopic force that's making the front wheel want to go straight on. What you are doing is pushing on what is effectively a fixed point to the left of the centreline of the bike, and this force is sufficient to initiate or exaggerate a lean to the left (and because it's further from the centreline than your body is, it takes less force than it would do to create the same lean just by moving your bodyweight).
That's how it works in my head anyway, but happy to be corrected.
Balky001
28-02-09, 01:22 PM
I don't think you need to 'actively' (does this just mean you are aware of it?) countersteer on track or on the road to make a fast turn, it is natural for most. The science and study of it is where some people get confused. For track, if you think when you are leaned over, body off to the side of the bike a bit looking through the corner, you lock your outside are to the tank, giving leverage for counter steer and the inside bar has the pressure of your body as you come over from braking to turn, countersteering will take place whether you know or not and it will be active if not concious. There's more to it but I think people can get hung up on it, just understanding your bike and feeling what it does and looking through the corner will make you corner better and instinctively counter steer
northwind
28-02-09, 11:53 PM
I was taught it on my DAS, but only because my instructor was getting bored and we still had half a day to go... I think they made that call themselves, as he said "First we teach you to work a bike, then we teach you to pass the test, and if there's any time left over we start teaching you how to ride" As it happened I was doing it anyway, I just rationalised it wrong (like many people do)- in my case, I was convinced that I wasn't pushing the bar forward, I was pushing the bike down into the turn by pushing down on the inside bar. Once I thought about this more I realised what was actually going on.
Here's a way of thinking of it that I quite like, btw... Think of it as kicking the bike's feet out from under it. You want the bike to go from stood up to on its side, you either have to lean it over by "pushing" it from the top, or by leaving the top where it is and pushing the wheel out from underneath. And since the bike's bigger than you are, just like fighting a big feller you don't try and push it over, you go for the knees :D
chakraist
01-03-09, 12:49 AM
Keith Code in Twist of the Wrist 2 covers this pretty comprehensively, but I agree with Northwind just up there, think of it as kicking the bike's feet out. It's also very useful for standing the bike up too, just flick the bars back the opposite way and stick the throttle on.
I don't remember learning it on my lessons, just looked it up on sites like this. i use it all the time on the road, push left to go left, push right to go right, makes its easier to turn .
metalangel
04-03-09, 07:48 AM
This talk of 'actively' using it to swerve around things seems strange. I know I use it every day when riding (and sometimes rather deliberately on bends) but reading descriptions of it just makes it sound totally different.
I think I'll do any proper practicing on a bicycle ;)
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