I.A.M - How many younger riders consider advanced riding? [Archive] - Page 2 - SV650.org

ArtyLady

26-02-09, 05:13 PM

Sorry ArtyLady, but that's vastly exaggerated, I suspect by IAM supporters.

BikeSafe is based on RoadCraft & the way police riders are taught. IAM is also based on RoadCraft.

Bikesafe & IAM differ on quite a few points. Granted I haven't been on an IAM ride, let alone done an exam, but I have done enough reading on the "IAM Way" to be able to comment on comparisons/differences.

As well as the RoadCraft book, I also have the IAM books, one for car & one for bike.

BikeSafe & IAM are parallel initiatives, but neither is based on the other.

Surely you are contradicting yourself :confused: Granted I've not done Bikesafe to be fair, but Roadcraft is the book that the Police Riders train with and Roadcraft promotes the IPSGA system. anyway to be honest once youve got the system instilled and it's second nature the rest is just about riding safely and making much better progress! I've never seen the IAM book so I don't know about that.

So perhaps I should have said Bikesafe is based on using the system in Roadcraft?.

Nutter

26-02-09, 05:13 PM

Bikesafe in my county costs more than a quarter of the amount the IAM charge for all the observing and test, and lasts about 4 hours. Seems worse value for money than the IAM to me. I have never done Bikesafe, but from what I understand the run in virtually the same way as the IAM do observing, so I don't understand what Lozzo means by being completely against the way the IAM do things but keen on the way Bikesafe do things.

And as far as the comment about insurers who offer IAM discounts being 'horrifically overpriced to start with', I've that the vast majority of insurers will offer the discount!

Nutter

26-02-09, 05:17 PM

Bikesafe & IAM differ on quite a few points. Granted I haven't been on an IAM ride, let alone done an exam, but I have done enough reading on the "IAM Way" to be able to comment on comparisons/differences.

Could you give a few examples, Baph?

Lozzo - is the the way the training is done, or the specific guidance that is given, that you have a problem with?

Sally

26-02-09, 05:20 PM

I don't know what the average age is. I would guess somewhere around mid-40s.

IAM stands for Institute of Advanced Motorists - it's a road safety charity, and allows people to have their riding observed over a number of sessions and then take a test with a Police advanced rider. Being an IAM member can give you insurance discounts, though not normally huge.

Is that not the problem?
Why would i want to spend £80 quid of my hard earned money, to join in with a group of older, 'more experienced' riders, who will critise me, who i only have riding in common with.. Sound like a well spent £80 to me..

If you were 17, you you not rather be tearing up and down the country roads, with you're mates, where everyone knows one another, can have a laugh, and doesnt seem bothered if we stick to the speed limits. Is that not what you would rather do?

On IAM rideouts, do you have to stick to speed limits, and other road laws?

Bikesafe, seems like a better idea to me, done by police, is subsidised by the government/council, is only for a day or that and no long standing commitments..

Also, is this not about younger riders, and their reasons why they havent already done advanced training, not IAM bashing or IAM ar$e licking??

Lozzo

26-02-09, 05:23 PM

Surely you are contradicting yourself :confused: Granted I've not done Bikesafe to be fair, but Roadcraft is the book that the Police Riders train with and Roadcraft promotes the IPSGA system. anyway to be honest once youve got the system instilled and it's second nature the rest is just about riding safely and making much better progress! I've never seen the IAM book so I don't know about that.

So perhaps I should have said Bikesafe is based on using the system in Roadcraft?.

Why do you need a system instilled? Riding should be instinctive not run to a system, whether it be second nature or not. If you need to stick to a system in order to ride properly, then I'd suggest that motorcycling is not really a natural thing for you.

As for making much better progress, you are having a laugh. It's the ****s with their little green stickers who hold everyone up by blocking lane 2 1/2 on the M1 every morning. I've resorted to getting off my bike and running up to one of them to tell him to get out of the f*cking way and let the queue of bikes behind him get past. That's not making good progress.

the_lone_wolf

26-02-09, 05:25 PM

If you were 17, you you not rather be tearing up and down the country roads, with you're mates, where everyone knows one another, can have a laugh, and doesnt seem bothered if we stick to the speed limits. Is that not what you would rather do?

of course, that's why 16-19yo are the most likely riders to be killed on the road

i tagged along with my local IAM instructor and bunch of "old farts" soon after passing my test, i also got the chance to ride with a 20yr police motorcyclist, we rode respectfully int he villages but once on the open road the speed limits weren't really a consideration, we all had a joke about hitting 115mph on the way back to the boat, very safely ridden and i learned plenty

it's a shame some people's views are so twisted away from reality...

ophic

26-02-09, 05:27 PM

As for making much better progress, you are having a laugh. It's the ****s with their little green stickers who hold everyone up by blocking lane 2 1/2 on the M1 every morning. I've resorted to getting off my bike and running up to one of them to tell him to get out of the f*cking way and let the queue of bikes behind him get past. That's not making good progress.
ROFL!

does anyone actually know why some bikers do this? cos its seriously irritating!

RichT

26-02-09, 05:27 PM

i am actually, until some born again beardy-weirdy with a bmw smelling of pi55 and mints starts telling me he can ride better purely because someone with 2 years riding experience on a gs500 gave him a green triangle badge.

pmsl

Lozzo

26-02-09, 05:28 PM

Could you give a few examples, Baph?

Lozzo - is the the way the training is done, or the specific guidance that is given, that you have a problem with?

It's the people who give the training. I'd trust the words a professional police rider gave me because I trust the way they ride and the incredibly in depth training they have had to take in order to ride police bikes, but I find it hard to take any IAM type seriously. I don't like the methods used by the IAM and their system, and found that reading Roadcraft many years ago taught me all I needed to know.

Living around here has helped no end, as we have the DSA Cardington rider training facility only a four miles away. I've frequently tagged onto the back of one of their rides and sat there for mile after mile mimicking what the police riders are being taught. That is until they catch on to me being there and stop to tell me to bu66er off.

Nutter

26-02-09, 05:29 PM

Is that not the problem?
If you were 17, you you not rather be tearing up and down the country roads, with you're mates, where everyone knows one another, can have a laugh, and doesnt seem bothered if we stick to the speed limits. Is that not what you would rather do?

...

Bikesafe, seems like a better idea to me, done by police, is subsidised by the government/council, is only for a day or that and no long standing commitments..

Also, is this not about younger riders, and their reasons why they havent already done advanced training, not IAM bashing or IAM ar$e licking??

I'm not sure you could learn much to improve your riding from your 17 year old mates tearing up and down country roads. I think you're missing the point!

Don't you think you can learn more over a longer period? We've had people come to the group having done Bikesafe because the Police instructors who run it have recommended that to carry on improving they could go to IAM.

By the way, I'm not ar$e licking.

fizzwheel

26-02-09, 05:30 PM

i tagged along with my local IAM instructor and bunch of "old farts" soon after passing my test, i also got the chance to ride with a 20yr police motorcyclist, we rode respectfully int he villages but once on the open road the speed limits weren't really a consideration, we all had a joke about hitting 115mph on the way back to the boat, very safely ridden and i learned plenty

Which ride did you prefer the experience of overall ?

Your experience of bikesafe sounds like much more of my idea of how I would like training or an observed session to go. Which is why I think I prefer to do a bikesafe over IAM.

Nutter

26-02-09, 05:36 PM

It's the people who give the training. I'd trust the words a professional police rider gave me because I trust the way they ride and the incredibly in depth training they have had to take in order to ride police bikes, but I find it hard to take any IAM type seriously.
We have current and ex Police class 1 riders in our group who are observers. Are you saying that before they joined the IAM you would trust them, but now they're observers you wouldn't?

I don't like the methods used by the IAM and their system.
As far as I know it's the same system and methods as Bikesafe, which you have said you think is much better. What exactly is it you think the IAM do so differently that is so terribly awful compared with anything else?

You don't seem to able to come up with anything specific apart from having a beard, smelling of wee and riding a GS500, none of which even warrant a response!

Sally

26-02-09, 05:36 PM

Know what i mean though, this thread has been derailed into fors/against IAM..
Didnt know how else to phrase it..

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roadsafety/research/behavioural/thirteenthseminar/coll_motorcycleaccidentsprelimin/dft_rdsafety_024715-2.jpg

31-35 arent far behind young riders..

I know, i would do advanced training with my A2 & CBT instructor, or do a bike safe school..

The time on a bike, which has been mentioned here, in order to be able to train someone, to me, doesnt seem long enough..

A DAS instructor/police rider, thats a different story..

But having someone who has ridden only for one year, observing me, i cant feel how they are ready to instruct, i certainly wouldnt be comfortable trying to teach people how to ride, if i had only one years riding under my belt.

Baph

26-02-09, 05:40 PM

So perhaps I should have said Bikesafe is based on using the system in Roadcraft?.
BikeSafe encompasses more than just IPSGA, but yes. The way it was worded before implied (to me at least) that BikeSafe was a prelude to IAM. I don't see it as that. I see them as being roughly equal.

Could you give a few examples, Baph?

OK, since I've never done IAM, I'll keep it to what's written on paper. I also keep trying to type, but getting disturbed by the kids, so this isn't an exhaustive list by any means.

BikeSafe teaching does not allow, nor advise overtaking where it would take you above the speed limit (in practice this rule is bent a little - or was for me). IAM (that I've read of it) allows breifly going over the speed limit to pass a vehicle that's preventing progress.

I'd personally argue that if a vehicle is maintaining near NSL speeds, that it's not preventing progress. But that wouldn't stop me overtaking it.

The use of indicators during overtakes however, both BikeSafe & IAM agree. They both state that you pull out to obtain a view, then when you've made a decision as to if the overtake is possible or not, at that point (when you're already on the wrong side of the road), you put the indicator on.

However, RoadCraft states that the indicator is put on before you pull out for a view.

The main point being, there's inconsistencies all over the place, when both IAM and BikeSafe are based on the same thing. However, BikeSafe has the advantage that (as far as I'm aware), the teachings are the same nationwide. As has been acknowledge by IAM members in this thread, this isn't always the case with IAM.

Lozzo

26-02-09, 05:53 PM

We have current and ex Police class 1 riders in our group who are observers. Are you saying that before they joined the IAM you would trust them, but now they're observers you wouldn't?

As serving police officers they are required to teach in the manner that the police force or Biksafe lays down, which is the method and manner I prefer. When they are with the IAM their methods and manner are open to interpetation, as every IAM group does it differently and reads different things into their system. I know some IAM groups where you'd be almost cast out if you went 2mph over the speed limit at any time, I now others where every rideout is treated like a roadgoing Pan-European only trackday.

There are so many contradictions with IAM, and he fact that a newly passed DAS rider with virtually no experience can observe and judge others is utterly laughable.

the_lone_wolf

26-02-09, 06:02 PM

31-35 arent far behind young riders..

that's because 31-35 are the age group of the "born again biker" who have full licenses and jump straight onto a litrebike thinking it's the same as their old norton they had when they were 17, takes nothing away from the fact that at 17 you are statistically clueless and foolhardy, with an inflated opinion of your ability, hence why they have far more accidents and their insurance is so high

Which ride did you prefer the experience of overall ?
it wasn't a bikesafe or IAM rideout, just me in a group of riders where one was IAM and one was Police

i got to spend more time with the copper as the IAM guy was leading the rideout, so he was able to offer more advice than the IAM guy, i value both of their opinions and they're both capable riders but given the choice as i said earlier i think i would prefer the bikesafe method of training, but i should qualify that by saying i think the IAM method is equally valid, just suited to different people who prefer to learn in a different way...

Dave20046

26-02-09, 06:04 PM

Is that not the problem?
Why would i want to spend £80 quid of my hard earned money, to join in with a group of older, 'more experienced' riders, who will critise me, who i only have riding in common with.. Sound like a well spent £80 to me..

If you were 17, you you not rather be tearing up and down the country roads, with you're mates, where everyone knows one another, can have a laugh, and doesnt seem bothered if we stick to the speed limits. Is that not what you would rather do?

On IAM rideouts, do you have to stick to speed limits, and other road laws?

Bikesafe, seems like a better idea to me, done by police, is subsidised by the government/council, is only for a day or that and no long standing commitments..

Also, is this not about younger riders, and their reasons why they havent already done advanced training, not IAM bashing or IAM ar$e licking??
Your view seems to be tinted by how much it's going to cost and whether the government will pay for it. IAM riders aren't all ******s with pipes it's just a picture that's been painted of them. They've developed the skills and they're still there when they are not sitting the test and can apply it to higher speeds. I've ridden with an IAM member of the forum, I tried teararsing round the countryside but he left me for dead.
I'd like to go out for more rideouts who cares if they're 18 or 38 (bearing in mind a lot of the .org are closer to the latter).

ArtyLady

26-02-09, 06:04 PM

.........
and he fact that a newly passed DAS rider with virtually no experience can observe and judge others is utterly laughable.

I don't think that's the case at all - they have to train (ergo putting the mileage in) to pass their Advanced test then undertake substanstial training to take another test of competance to observe.

Lozzo

26-02-09, 06:07 PM

that's because 31-35 are the age group of the "born again biker" who have full licenses and jump straight onto a litrebike thinking it's the same as their old norton they had when they were 17,

More likely to have been a 100bhp+ GPZ1100 or a FZ750 if they are 31 to 35 years old. I'm 46 and can't remember there being many Nortons left on the road 5 years before I started riding at 16.

Mej

26-02-09, 06:09 PM

Nutter

26-02-09, 06:10 PM

BikeSafe teaching does not allow, nor advise overtaking where it would take you above the speed limit (in practice this rule is bent a little - or was for me). IAM (that I've read of it) allows breifly going over the speed limit to pass a vehicle that's preventing progress.
I'd personally argue that if a vehicle is maintaining near NSL speeds, that it's not preventing progress. But that wouldn't stop me overtaking it.
If it's completely by the book and official, then no - the IAM is the same as Bikesafe. In practice it depends on how pragmatic your observer/examiner is, just as Bikesafe is going on what people have said here.
The use of indicators during overtakes however, both BikeSafe & IAM agree. They both state that you pull out to obtain a view, then when you've made a decision as to if the overtake is possible or not, at that point (when you're already on the wrong side of the road), you put the indicator on.
However, RoadCraft states that the indicator is put on before you pull out for a view.
The IAM green book says to hang back and near the centre of the road to get a good view, and then move up to the overtake position and make sure no-one else is about to overtake, then indicate before pulling out, and then once you are out and clear accelerate. Roadcraft (blue book) says to consider indicating and do so if appropriate. Apart from that they're virtually identical.
The main point being, there's inconsistencies all over the place, when both IAM and BikeSafe are based on the same thing. However, BikeSafe has the advantage that (as far as I'm aware), the teachings are the same nationwide. As has been acknowledge by IAM members in this thread, this isn't always the case with IAM.
IAM groups receive instructions on how things should be done, and new concepts introduced, from their HQ, just as I imagine Bikesafe does. Both will suffer from local group and personal observer interpretations though.

I keep considering Bikesafe to see if there's anything additional to pick up from them, but seeing as it costs £35 here and some of the same people who observed me were Bikesafe instructors I'm not sure there is much point.

The local road safety partnership do run this though, which looks very interesting.

Nutter

26-02-09, 06:14 PM

As serving police officers they are required to teach in the manner that the police force or Biksafe lays down, which is the method and manner I prefer.

And as IAM observers they are required to teach in the manner that the IAM lays down. You seem either unwilling or unable to provide the differences in the delivery and content of the IAM compared with Bikesafe that you dislike so much.

Lozzo

26-02-09, 06:14 PM

I don't think that's the case at all - they have to train (ergo putting the mileage in) to pass their Advanced test then undertake substanstial training to take another test of competance to observe.

I still don't think that at that point a newly passed DAS rider would have enough experience of real world riding to be able to judge another person's riding skills, no matter how many miles they did in the training regime for IAM observer. It takes years of riding to build up skills and confidence enough to just do it without a second thought, you simply cannot train that into someone over a few observed rides and a year.

The fact that a newly passed DAS rider can do a few observed rides and pass the IAM test is testement to the real value of an IAM pass certificate. It strikes me as training to pass a test, not training to ride.

steveg

26-02-09, 06:18 PM

I passed by IAM test 10 years ago , did used to be a observer however don't have the time
When I used to teach I used to have fun and this was frawned upon , however who buys a bike to ride at the speed limits on national limit .
Did bike safe a couple of times , first time was great and was encouraged to ride at a speed above nationals aslong as safe , another time the bloke was a bit of a wker.

I don't enjoy riding in a rigid systamatic manner , I use the principles of road craft however adapt and go with the flow , riding a bike supposed to be fun

Sorry spelling a bit ship just finishing a bottle of Clynelish off .

Cheers Steveg

Lozzo

26-02-09, 06:20 PM

And as IAM observers they are required to teach in the manner that the IAM lays down. You seem either unwilling or unable to provide the differences in the delivery and content of the IAM compared with Bikesafe that you dislike so much.

It's not so much the methods as the people and they way they implement the methods.

I have a real problem with the up their own ar5es attitude of virtually every IAM member I have ever encountered in my riding days. I've been doing this for nearly 31 years and I know what I'm doing. I ride safely and I can ride fast when I want. There is no way I would ever listen to someone who's been riding for 2 years post DAS sitting there judging the way I ride.

As I've said before, I've ridden with IAM types and they are a bloody liability on the open roads. I now avoid any situation where I know they will be anywhere within striking distance of me and my bike. Half of them couldn't drive a greasy stick up a pig's backside.

Sally

26-02-09, 06:32 PM

that's because 31-35 are the age group of the "born again biker" who have full licenses and jump straight onto a litrebike thinking it's the same as their old norton they had when they were 17, takes nothing away from the fact that at 17 you are statistically clueless and foolhardy, with an inflated opinion of your ability, hence why they have far more accidents and their insurance is so high

I dont have an inflated opinion of my ability, i dont know how well i can ride, as i havent been assessed, never once have i said that i am a very good rider with mountains of ability.

Am just going by what the org is saying, i have never met a IAM member before, never heard about them before, just trying to listen in, and work it out for myself..

Sally

26-02-09, 06:35 PM

Your view seems to be tinted by how much it's going to cost and whether the government will pay for it. IAM riders aren't all ******s with pipes it's just a picture that's been painted of them. They've developed the skills and they're still there when they are not sitting the test and can apply it to higher speeds. I've ridden with an IAM member of the forum, I tried teararsing round the countryside but he left me for dead.
I'd like to go out for more rideouts who cares if they're 18 or 38 (bearing in mind a lot of the .org are closer to the latter).

Never met any, just going in opinions posted in the forum.
I dont mind riding with different people..

Maybe my opinions are too based on what i have heard here, and not what i have experienced myself.

injury_ian

26-02-09, 06:37 PM

My goodness gracious me!!!!!!!!!

Nothing like stereotyping is there?!
Speaking personally for the group I belong to, there is no snobbery. Just a bunch of people who enjoy riding, and do riding.

I have done Bikesafe and IAM, and they are the same deal. infact at the end of bikesafe they will tell you the way forward with the training, - IAM or RoSPA.

My advice to anyone that is 'pondering' Give it a whirl, what is there to loose, and who knows, you might enjoy it!

Nutter

26-02-09, 06:57 PM

It's not so much the methods as the people and they way they implement the methods.
I have a real problem with the up their own ar5es attitude of virtually every IAM member I have ever encountered in my riding days.
I'm sorry you think about me that way. You've made your opinion of me very clear without knowing much at all about me. Do I honestly come across that way? I'm serious - do I? Because if I do I need to know - I really don't want to be like that.

The IAM definitely has its failings, and I agree that letting people become observers without enough experience is probably one of them, along with things like charging too much, but I have never, ever, met anyone like the people you describe.
As I've said before, I've ridden with IAM types and they are a bloody liability on the open roads. I now avoid any situation where I know they will be anywhere within striking distance of me and my bike. Half of them couldn't drive a greasy stick up a pig's backside.
It's very odd you think I am such a liability on the road having never seen me ride. So going on what you've just said, you avoid going on any rides with anyone from this forum who is an IAM member because they are unable to ride and are inherently dangerous to everyone around them? As I said, there are a number of police riders in our group, and frankly I'm astounded you think they are completely incapable of riding properly when the Police force obviously think differently. I guess you must know best though. Most people can't hope to ride like our group's chief observer, and I know of nobody else who can corner like him, but you must be right, he obviously can't ride for toffee.

I can understand why you don't want to and see no benefit from doing the IAM observed runs and test yourself, but to be honest your remarks about the whole concept seem rather childish.

the_lone_wolf

26-02-09, 07:04 PM

I dont have an inflated opinion of my ability, i dont know how well i can ride, as i havent been assessed, never once have i said that i am a very good rider with mountains of ability.
hence why it's "statistically" - you might be the best rider since rossi but your age group is undoubtedly the most accident prone...

Sally

26-02-09, 07:33 PM

Ahhh..
I missed that bit mate, sorry for being a bit hasty.
Sorry! Al stop being an @rse :)

Lozzo

26-02-09, 07:57 PM

I'm sorry you think about me that way. You've made your opinion of me very clear without knowing much at all about me.

You obviously chose to ignore my statement of "virtually every IAM member I have ever encountered", or you don't understand what that means.

This means nearly all of the ones I know and have met.

I don't know and have never met you.

fraser01

26-02-09, 08:14 PM

Wow I under estimated how hot this topic would be, I was simply trying to get an idea of why younger riders don't join IAM.

I was asked by my local IAM group why younger members were not joining and it appears that there are a number of reasons. From my dealings they are interested on what people want and they do want to change, but its the people in the "club" who create the image and how things are run, if they are to change for the better then maybe that wont happen until they get younger members..seems like a vicious circle huh..

I think that every rider would benefit from some form of advanced riding, be it bikesafe, ROSPA or IAM etc. We can't account for other road users but we can try and minimise the risks and try and make ourselves better riders, yes by bums on seats and mile crunching but some people do suffer from self delusion (I am a fantastic rider syndrome). The old saying you can tell a bloke his wife is ugly and he wont bat an eye lid but try telling him hes a bad driver and he will take offence.

No matter what extra training you do, biking is a continual learning process and I dont think trying to better yourself is a bad thing. I personally know a number of police motorcyclists who are either members, observers or examiners who are affiliated with IAM and when i ask them why they do it, they reply that its their way of giving something back (they are all volnuteers after all) and it promotes road safety. The examiner is also responsible for running the local bikesafe also.

So thanks for all the responses, the main points I picked out are;

1. Cost
2. Inconsistances in training
3. Attitude

...and the grey bearded BMW rider :D

Cheers

Fraser

fizzwheel

26-02-09, 08:21 PM

Nice summary :D

May I make a suggestion, get out to your local bike meets, Poole Quay for example, get a stand there and start giving out leaflets and talking to bikers. If you get can to a BSB meet and get a stand up and do the same I think that also would be good.

If you can get your IAM observers to talk to the rest of us bikers and also break the stereo typical image IAM has, i.e theres some people there on sportsbikes, etc etc. I think it'd be positvely received...

Stig

26-02-09, 08:27 PM

I have never and would never consider any of the advanced rider clubs. I did however take advanced riding lessons as soon as I passed my test.

The basic test shows you have basic skills to handle the bike at road legal speeds. The advanced lessons teach you how to ride a bike.

rob13

26-02-09, 08:44 PM

Personally, this does interest me as extra training is one of my priorities for this season. I am very keen on doing bikesafe, but know less about IAM & ROSPA.

Bikesafe has been such a success amongst all age groups because of effective marketing. In Cleveland & Durham, both bike squads organise a yearly event where they dont lecture you or ram road safety down your throat, but mix it up alongside stuntmen, trials riding, Rideouts and guest appearances. The safety theme runs throughout but its more approachable and I think the way that they market it appeals to a wider audience.
Some of the Dumfries and Galloway boys turned up at St Marys Loch last year on a thoroughly miserable day, and on getting chatting to them, they offered us pucks, earplugs and a safety pack. They said nothing about the plate or can simply that it was a nice bike.

IAM needs a marketing team to bring it up to date. Bikesafe contacted me last year for feedback on their strategy for 2009 after I said I would be happy to offer my opinion.
IAM need to focus their efforts on broadening their appeal. They need to get rid of the green triangles for starters and introduce something else. That reminds of an AA badge that old guys still stick on their Rover 45s.

For those that are in the bike teams or are close to them (through traffic), what would be considered the more useful qualification to hold if one was to attempt to join? This is something I have considered for the future and would be interested in finding out whether ROSPA or IAM would stand me in better stead.

Dave20046

26-02-09, 08:53 PM

hence why it's "statistically" - you might be the best rider since rossi but your age group is undoubtedly the most accident prone...
I was under the impression the reason police target 25s to 40s was based on death statistics.

the_lone_wolf

26-02-09, 08:59 PM

I was under the impression the reason police target 25s to 40s was based on death statistics.if they do then they're working off bad data, the graph above is correct in showing the order of highest risk goes broadly 16-19, 31-35 then 20-30

Biker Biggles

26-02-09, 09:02 PM

Lies damn lies and statistics.
I wonder if the figures are adjusted for bike miles travelled and numbers riding in those age groups.

Sally

26-02-09, 09:07 PM

They were just raw figures off a DVLA website.

16-20 y/o's, alot more members than any other age group, we have the little neds on their scooters ect to help our statistics, more likely to have the bike as sole mode of transport, hence more miles.

These are just assumptions, and personal opinions..

rob13

26-02-09, 09:10 PM

Figures and stats aren't really that relevant though. Everyone is at risk of having an accident if they havent got the necessary training or experience.

the_lone_wolf

26-02-09, 09:11 PM

Lies damn lies and statistics.
I wonder if the figures are adjusted for bike miles travelled and numbers riding in those age groups.
younger riders generally ride smaller capacity bikes which means lower mileages, therefore if anything they're underepresented

read the DFT's compendium of motorcycling statistics, it contains the derivation of the figures

dirtydog

26-02-09, 09:11 PM

At 46 I am too young to even consider the IAM, as I don't smell of wee or have a BMW with panniers full of Werther's Originals.

Every IAM member I know crashes more than those who aren't in it anyway, so I'm not tempting fate by joining or doing their 'training'

I don't smell of wee or have a BMW and i haven't had an accident fo about 4 years now

My other reason for not doing IAM training is their members are often insufferable bores who have this 'holier than thou' attitude to anyone who doesn't ride to their system.

Jeez did i leave that much of an impression on you?

Also in my experience quite a few IAM qualified riders tend to "look down their nose" at those that aren't "qualified". Esp if you don't show an interest. That's not to generalise in anyway. I have also met people quite the opposite, but it does seem that you're pigeonholed rather quickly if you haven't or aren't interested. Which is not to say you don't think it's worthwhile.

I don't look down my nose at anyone, if you're not interesyed in it then fair enough.

I've met a couple of snooty IAM instructors, I listend to one examiner talk to his pupil about what he carried in his toolkit for nearly 20 minutes at Podimore services, it bored the sh*t out of me, all that and they hadnt even got on their bikes to start riding.

But you will always get people like that in any group of people.

On IAM rideouts, do you have to stick to speed limits, and other road laws?

OMG imagine sticking to road laws when you're riding whatever next? :rolleyes:

As I've said before, I've ridden with IAM types and they are a bloody liability on the open roads. I now avoid any situation where I know they will be anywhere within striking distance of me and my bike. Half of them couldn't drive a greasy stick up a pig's backside.

So you'll not ride anywhere near me but you'll sit in the passenger dseat of my car for a little drivre up the road to your lock up? ;)

As for making progress have any of you seen me filtering on a motorway or through town :wink:

joshmac

26-02-09, 09:33 PM

OMG imagine sticking to road laws when you're riding whatever next? :rolleyes:
Easy.. he was only asking a question...

As for making progress have any of you seen me filtering on a motorway or through town :wink:

No, but I've heard :p:lol:.

Sally

26-02-09, 09:43 PM

squirrel_hunter

26-02-09, 09:54 PM

In a bid to answer the original question it was the chance of reduced insurance premiums that attracted me first and then the opportunity to improve my riding secondly. I've never benefited from the insurance but feel that it had a positive impact on my riding.

I passed my advanced test when I was 21 with a local group, however I never hung around after. Not really sure why, I just didn't feel that there was a place for me. It had nothing to do with age, bike type, or what was taught it just didn't keep my attraction.

IAM is not for everyone, just as biking isn't. I always think that with any learning experience what you get from it is up to you and what you put in to it. And it comes down to personal choice, if you want some extra training thats good; it doesn't need to be IAM, Bikesafe, ROSPA or any of them, an experienced and knowledgeable friend is just as good. And if you haven't taken any or don't want to thats fine its your choice.

But unfortunately there are a lot of preconceptions when it comes to the IAM and such, and this is what troubles me the most. From my short time with the IAM group I never encountered this famed "holier than thou" attitude, but have found it elsewhere. That said if I stayed around long enough maybe I would have, you meet all sorts of people on bikes...

dirtydog

26-02-09, 10:00 PM

Was only enquiring mate, since this thread was about getting younger riders to join IAM and the reasons why they havent already..

Was just looking for an answer...

Very helpful advice from a IAM member, thanks mate :?

Is there the emphasis on sticking to the NSL, or is it bent a bit like the Bikesafe courses?
Havent been with bikesafe or IAM, just going on what i hear on the org..

Sorry was just being a bit sarky ;)

As for sticking with NSL it varies, the observers i've been out with have been a mixed bunch but generally you stick to the 30s, 40s and 50s but most NSLs are fair game if you get what i mean.

I haven't done bikesafe so can't really comment on it unlike a lot of people here who haven't done IAM but still feel qualified to comment on it :rolleyes:;)

The thing is bike safe is 1 day (someone correct me if i'm wrong) whereas IAM is a regular thing, my local group the same as Stus only meet once a month which isn't ideal for me as I have commitments every other weekend which means i don't get out as much. But for my £80 I got 6 or 7 observed rides and my test at the end of it, so that's probably about 18-20 hours of guidance withh my riding before I sat my test. You may need more, you may need less. Kitkat had about 60 hours of observed runs. I had about 10 years riding experience and Kitkat had pretty much just passed her DAS.

Sally

26-02-09, 10:03 PM

Nae buther, this topic has raised a few tempers..
Thanks for the infomation mate, much appreciated.

Baph

26-02-09, 10:17 PM

The thing is bike safe is 1 day (someone correct me if i'm wrong)

BikeSafe is offered as 2 days. Either 2 days of actual riding/theory, or one day of that, and the second day of First Bike On Scene (FBOS) - which teaches things like safe helmet removal.

When I did BikeSafe, I did the latter. I spent an afternoon out on the bike, and that was enough for me personally.

dirtydog

26-02-09, 10:29 PM

BikeSafe is offered as 2 days. Either 2 days of actual riding/theory, or one day of that, and the second day of First Bike On Scene (FBOS) - which teaches things like safe helmet removal.

When I did BikeSafe, I did the latter. I spent an afternoon out on the bike, and that was enough for me personally.

Ah right, wasn't sure. I stand corrected

yorkie_chris

26-02-09, 10:31 PM

I have an issue with people with little or no real world riding experience thinking they are good enough to judge other people's riding and pontificating about how wonderful a system is when they've not spent any decent time riding without it. I've tried the IAM system, it sucks. Experience counts for so much more than that, which is why I'd be 100% in favour of doing Bikesafe rather than ever doing IAM.

Sure I crashed a few times in my youth, broke quite a few bones as well, but my experience of IAM types is their riding is as bad as mine was back then. They still crash, they still break bones, but all of a sudden it can't be their fault because they're "trained advanced riders".

Fair one.

If you were 17, you you not rather be tearing up and down the country roads, with you're mates, where everyone knows one another, can have a laugh, and doesnt seem bothered if we stick to the speed limits. Is that not what you would rather do?

Too right.

of course, that's why 16-19yo are the most likely riders to be killed on the road

Because they include scooterchavs in the figures not just proper bikes.

ROFL!

does anyone actually know why some bikers do this? cos its seriously irritating!

To get a better view, so they can decide when to be brave and filter again at 2mph. A 3 foot wide gap can look tiny from the seat of a sportsbike...
I've taken to using cycle lanes when there are powerrangers/beards in the way. I'm going to elbow that c0ck straight off his BMW if he gets me tomorrow though.

I'm not sure you could learn much to improve your riding from your 17 year old mates tearing up and down country roads. I think you're missing the point!

B0llocks man! You learn more ragging the t1ts out of your bike trying to keep up with your mates for 10 miles than you do in 100 miles plodding.

younger riders generally ride smaller capacity bikes which means lower mileages, therefore if anything they're underepresented

read the DFT's compendium of motorcycling statistics, it contains the derivation of the figures

I would love to know your logic on that! Which is going to do more miles? The 17 year old's 125 used as only means of transport, or the 39 year olds sunday afternoon toy?

joshmac

26-02-09, 10:31 PM

When I did the bikesafe course it was just the one day. We got put into pairs with one instructor, although because there was an odd number of us, I got a 1:1 with the police rider :)

Had a powerpoint presentation when we got there, the ace that is (after coffee), had more coffee and biscuits, then went for a ride through town for 2 hours ish then went back to the ace for lunch which was included in the price (grand sum of £0 for me :-D). Then in the afternoon we went onto the country roads. That was the best bit IMO, as in the most beneficial.

Then we had a more "bring you back down to earth" powerpoint. Basically photos of when it goes wrong. Some of those were pretty nasty.

My instructor said the Bikesafe days are like a step to advanced riding. They said I should do IAM or ROSPA. Gonna' try IAM first to see what it's like

joshmac

26-02-09, 10:32 PM

Ah right, wasn't sure. I stand corrected
You were right too...

Sally

26-02-09, 10:39 PM

[QUOTE=yorkie_chris;1800513]
Originally Posted by saoralba
If you were 17, you you not rather be tearing up and down the country roads, with you're mates, where everyone knows one another, can have a laugh, and doesnt seem bothered if we stick to the speed limits. Is that not what you would rather do?

Too right.

Glad someone agrees.
We just have to remember we do this because we enjoy it, we enjoy spending time with our bike and our mates.
If you're not enjoying it, why bother.

I feel i would have a better time with guys my own age, guys i know previous and guys i know how they ride.

IAM, Bikesafe and advanced training, all steps to make us enjoy our bikes more.

Nutter

26-02-09, 10:44 PM

Bikesafe is 1 day (about 4 hours in total I'm told) in Lincolnshire, and you have to pay.

26-02-09, 10:45 PM

Tsk I've come in at the end after all the controvery has settled down. My views - lots of 'I' in this, tough!!

I'm an IAM member. I did it because I'd had a serious fault accident (for the prurient, described on the 'what to do in the event of an off' thread) and when I got back on a bike I knew that I needed more training. At the time, my mate Karl was the senior observer for Telford & Wrekin Group, and he suggested it. He did the observing. I think we did a dozen or so assessed rides before I did the test. I don't attend IAM meetings now simply cos I don't have the time, but I do belong to the local group, who generally are around my age and who ride sportsbikes. There is one BMW and one Pan that I remember. I occasionally go out with darylB (he's an observer) on the associate observed rides on a Saturday and I can honestly say that I don't recognise any of the paternalistic and sanctimonious attitudes which some on this thread have sneered at. I've never seen any lectures of the sort that Fizz witnessed. What I have seen is people who give their time voluntarily to help others improve, and who offer constructive comment.

Nor do I now ride to The System. I fundamentally disagree with Lozzo that it stops you thinking independently. For me it gave me a badly needed structure around which I built a safe approach to my riding. It encouraged me to find a managed way of doing things and to appreciate hazards and how to deal with them effectively so the risk doesn't materialise and so I don't have to take last second action to avoid a crash: it has never replaced independent thought, rather it has helped it by introducing a framework to build upon. The DAS test does nothing like this. I don't ride to any rigid and mechanistic set of rules, but I do approach things logically and sequentially. I don't claim that that's a correct approach but it works for me.

Fizz, yes go buy Roadcraft. For me it was a boring read, the first 5 or 6 chapters are tedious belly button gazing. And then implement what it says. But who is going to give you feedback on what you're doing? How are you going to improve if you have no constructive criticism? Do remember that IAM observers are exactly that - observers. They aren't instructors as such, they don't teach, they suggest and offer constructive comment.

I paid £85 - I had about 12 assessed rides, and a lot more informal training. I thought it was good value. I think I paid an extra £35 for the test. I get a small discount on my insurance but again I disagree with Lozzo's view that the company would have been prohibitively expensive in the first place. I'm insured with a Lloyds brokerage - KGM - through Adelaide Insurance Brokers in Belfast. I've recommended them to others and not had any negative feedback.

I don't ride that fast but I don't ride that slow either. I try not to delay other road users, if I'm aware of someone behind who wants to get past then I'd far rather let them past as they're better in front than behind so I can relax without worrying about a fast and impatient rider/driver behind. Getting there first is not a concern to me, getting there safely is though.

No green badge on my bike.

There is no linear progression relationship between length of time riding and being a better rider. So Saoralba is not necessarily dangerous, and Stu is not necessarily a beginner.

The IAM does not claim to be perfect, not as far as I know, anyway. I don't claim to be perfect either. I think that if the IAM can raise awareness of road safety issues and can raise driving standards then that must be a good thing, and I consider that the harsh and often uninformed comments on here are undeserved.

Anyway I have to go as my frontal incontinence is about to embarrass me:rolleyes:

yorkie_chris

26-02-09, 10:48 PM

I've read roadcraft and loads of internet material (plenty total b0llocks about), and had a couple of thousand miles to get used to how to point a bike in the general direction I want to go. If I did training it would be to become a faster, safe rider. Probably more emphasis on the fast TBH.

The stuff on the bikes that makes people go "tsk tsk", and old farts shake their heads at you is what makes it fun.

As for recent events, I learned loads from half an hour listening to a half pi$$ed geordie (cheers berlin!). It's experience that counts not bits of paper.

Nutter

26-02-09, 10:48 PM

B0llocks man! You learn more ragging the t1ts out of your bike trying to keep up with your mates for 10 miles than you do in 100 miles plodding.

Who said anything about plodding? I was saying you'll learn more from something like IAM, RoSPA or Bikesafe. If you're playing catch up way beyond your skills and riding like a total muppet at the limits of your bike, I suppose you might learn how to crash the best way. I prefer to try avoiding the crash personally.

the_lone_wolf

26-02-09, 10:52 PM

I would love to know your logic on that! Which is going to do more miles? The 17 year old's 125 used as only means of transport, or the 39 year olds sunday afternoon toy?

yes, because obviously ALL <125cc bikes are ridden as sole means of transport by 16yo who inexplicably work at the mcdonalds a hundred miles away and not the one next door to the council estate, and ALL >600cc bikes are ridden my middle aged bank managers who only go out when the sun is shining, the month has a "g" in it and moon is in the right phase

on average, lower capacity machines do fewer miles, see Chart 3.6 in the DfT Compendium of Motorcycling Statistics 2008:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/162259/162469/221412/221552/228173/3162761/motorcyclingstats2008.pdf

yorkie_chris

26-02-09, 10:53 PM

You said "I'm not sure you could learn much", and I think you can learn plenty!

If your mate is quicker than you, then it's fairly straightforward to appreciate you will be able to see why/how.

fizzwheel

26-02-09, 10:55 PM

I've never seen any lectures of the sort that Fizz witnessed.

I'll admit its probably a one off, but its enough to make me in my head build an opinion of what IAM is like, albeit its probably a wrong one, but there you are...

Fizz, yes go buy Roadcraft. For me it was a boring read, the first 5 or 6 chapters are tedious belly button gazing. And then implement what it says. But who is going to give you feedback on what you're doing?

The same person thats been giving me feedback in my 5 year riding career, erhh... nobody :D

I do get where you're all comning from, what I was struggling with earlier on in the thread, is what I was actually getting for my £100 outlay, Now some of you have taken the time to explain and undestand it, I get it now.

I dislike intensley any form of test or examination and I'm not very good at being told what to do, where I should be doing it and how I should be doing it. I prefer learning a little from a book and then going and trying it and working out my own way of doing things. Yes you could call me stubborn and I wouldnt disagree with you :D

What if I joined my IAM group and I really hated it, Could I get my money back ? What if I just wanted to go and do a few observed rides and didnt want to take the test itself ?

IAM seems very formal with structure and tests etc etc, I'm not really a formal kind of person. Which is why I think Bikesafe may well suit me better.

Nutter

26-02-09, 10:58 PM

If your mate is quicker than you, then it's fairly straightforward to appreciate you will be able to see why/how.

You seem to be assuming the only reason to learn anything about riding is to go faster. That's just one of the many things you can learn to do!
Watching someone rag it on the straights and corner like a granny on a mobility scooter really won't help with anything else.

I found IAM (I've not done RoSPA or Bikesafe, etc) dramatically improved my cornering (including so I could see better around bends and take them faster), overtaking (I get many more overtakes in than I used to), defensive road positioning and general riding.

yorkie_chris

26-02-09, 11:00 PM

No, but figuring out how to get past them coming out of a corner means developing better observations, learning about the limit of grip etc etc.

When I say faster, I mean in proper pace... not paggering the throttle in a straight line.

There's a mate of mine who has an old R1, 80mph max on the straights... but you try and match him round some twisties... it is an education following (chasing!) him!

Baph

26-02-09, 11:03 PM

You seem to be assuming the only reason to learn anything about riding is to go faster. That's just one of the many things you can learn to do!
Watching someone rag it on the straights and corner like a granny on a mobility scooter really won't help with anything else.

I found IAM (I've not done RoSPA or Bikesafe, etc) dramatically improved my cornering (including so I could see better around bends and take them faster), overtaking (I get many more overtakes in than I used to), defensive road positioning and general riding.

As has been said many many times in this thread alone (or paraphrasing at least) - that worked for you, it doesn't for everyone. :)

Comments have been made about requiring constructive criticism to progress in terms of ability. I'm sure it helps, but I'm also sure it's a bit over-rated. Again, what works for some doesn't for others.

By pure co-incidence my sig has a quote from the last person to go out for a ride with me. The only advanced observation I've had was BikeSafe, and my general riding hasn't changed at all since doing that.

26-02-09, 11:05 PM

No, but figuring out how to get past them coming out of a corner means developing better observations, learning about the limit of grip etc etc.

When I say faster, I mean in proper pace... not paggering the throttle in a straight line.

Kristoff, and how would these kids figure out how to do this coming out of a corner? How would anyone know? It isn't the sort of thing you'd want to learn by trial - and error.

yorkie_chris

26-02-09, 11:06 PM

An IAM observer isn't going to turn the throttle for you either...

26-02-09, 11:07 PM

As has been said many many times in this thread alone (or paraphrasing at least) - that worked for you, it doesn't for everyone. :)

Comments have been made about requiring constructive criticism to progress in terms of ability. I'm sure it helps, but I'm also sure it's a bit over-rated. Again, what works for some doesn't for others.

True, oh king. So if the IAM works for some, why are others bashing it?

joshmac

26-02-09, 11:12 PM

True, oh king. So if the IAM works for some, why are others bashing it?
Just 'cause they can maybe :confused:

yorkie_chris

26-02-09, 11:13 PM

True, oh king. So if the IAM works for some, why are others bashing it?

Dunno. But I'm not going to spoil their fun. When are you getting the BMW delivered then?

joshmac

26-02-09, 11:14 PM

Dunno. But I'm not going to spoil their fun. When are you getting the BMW delivered then?
With complimentary slippers and pipe :rolleyes:

Sally

26-02-09, 11:18 PM

Is the mandatory p1ss smell included with the BMW, slippers and pipe?

joshmac

26-02-09, 11:19 PM

*sigh* :rolleyes:

:lol:

Sally

26-02-09, 11:21 PM

:rolleyes:
haha

26-02-09, 11:22 PM

Dunno. But I'm not going to spoil their fun. When are you getting the BMW delivered then?

'Fun':confused:

Freedom of speech is a good thing. But only when it's informed. Sweeping stereotypical assumptions do nobody any good, and arguments without evidence are often built on sand.

yorkie_chris

26-02-09, 11:22 PM

Dunno though, if some bloke on a BMW who smells of pi$$ is going to teach me to go faster without screaming banzai I wouldn't mind at all.

I think you'd be daft not to consider some sort of advanced training, but equally daft to try one straight after DAS and convince yourself it is the be-all and end-all of biking.

yorkie_chris

26-02-09, 11:25 PM

'Fun':confused:

Freedom of speech is a good thing. But only when it's informed. Sweeping stereotypical assumptions do nobody any good, and arguments without evidence are often built on sand.

Opinions are like rseholes.

If anyone reads peoples opinions and can't seperate serious comment from taking the mick, and sweeping statements from fact... then they are clearly too stupid to own a motorcycle.

kitkat

26-02-09, 11:26 PM

There are so many contradictions with IAM, and he fact that a newly passed DAS rider with virtually no experience can observe and judge others is utterly laughable.

Its not about judging others, its about observing their riding and pointing out any issues they may or may not have.

I don't think that's the case at all - they have to train (ergo putting the mileage in) to pass their Advanced test then undertake substanstial training to take another test of competance to observe.

I underwent about 60 hours observed runs which is way above average but I was not a confident or natural rider but am quite happy to admit that.

I still don't think that at that point a newly passed DAS rider would have enough experience of real world riding to be able to judge another person's riding skills, no matter how many miles they did in the training regime for IAM observer. It takes years of riding to build up skills and confidence enough to just do it without a second thought, you simply cannot train that into someone over a few observed rides and a year.

The fact that a newly passed DAS rider can do a few observed rides and pass the IAM test is testement to the real value of an IAM pass certificate. It strikes me as training to pass a test, not training to ride.

This is true to a certain degree. I was trained to pass a test but the IAM taught me how to ride so its how I ride. Lots of people who came along had to adapt their riding style to incorporate some IAM ideas. These people had problems when they relaxed during their test as they slipped back to their normal riding style which could sometimes cause them to not be selected to be a member of IAM (it is not actually a test and you cant fail, you just fail to reach the standard required.)

There is no way I would ever listen to someone who's been riding for 2 years post DAS sitting there judging the way I ride.

Its not as if I would follow you down the road and pull in behind you in the car park and start telling you what I thought of your riding. I observe other riders who ask me to and point out one of two points that they could improve in order to be selected to join IAM.

As I've said before, I've ridden with IAM types and they are a bloody liability on the open roads. I now avoid any situation where I know they will be anywhere within striking distance of me and my bike. Half of them couldn't drive a greasy stick up a pig's backside.

Ill ensure I wear a big badge when out riding just in case you are on the same road as me, so you can run and hide;)

IAm just going by what the org is saying, i have never met a IAM member before, never heard about them before, just trying to listen in, and work it out for myself..

few of ecosse posse are IAM members - Carelesschucka, Independentphoto and Quedos to mention a few.

I have never and would never consider any of the advanced rider clubs. I did however take advanced riding lessons as soon as I passed my test.

The basic test shows you have basic skills to handle the bike at road legal speeds. The advanced lessons teach you how to ride a bike.

This is why I joined IAM. I passed DAS and yet could not ride a bike. IAM advised me on countersteer, vanishing point, use of brakes and gears.

joshmac

26-02-09, 11:27 PM

Freedom of speech is a good thing. But only when it's informed. Sweeping stereotypical assumptions do nobody any good, and arguments without evidence are often built on sand.
+1, Completely agree with you there.

joshmac

26-02-09, 11:34 PM

I think you'd be daft not to consider some sort of advanced training, but equally daft to try one straight after DAS and convince yourself it is the be-all and end-all of biking.
Yeah, but it's very easy to mis-read someone's post on an internet forum.
I find the mood I'm in makes a massive difference.
Apparently 93% of communication is non-verbal and obviously you can't judge tone, body language or facial expressions on a forum...

Luckypants

26-02-09, 11:34 PM

This is why I joined IAM. I passed DAS and yet could not ride a bike. IAM advised me on countersteer, vanishing point, use of brakes and gears.

Hmmmm the more I read comments like this the more I worry about riding schools. My DAS instructor taught me about brakes and gears, he was suprised that I knew about counter steering, weight shifting (from MTB) and road postioning. My car instructor (in 1980/81) taught me about vanishing point, using other cues on road direction (hedges, telegraph poles, etc). Was I lucky with my instructors when I was learning?

My worries about IAM is cost, but would like to give it a try. Did someone say there are taster observed rides available?

Stu

26-02-09, 11:35 PM

Nor do I now ride to The System. I fundamentally disagree with Lozzo that it stops you thinking independently. For me it gave me a badly needed structure around which I built a safe approach to my riding. It encouraged me to find a managed way of doing things and to appreciate hazards and how to deal with them effectively so the risk doesn't materialise and so I don't have to take last second action to avoid a crash: it has never replaced independent thought, rather it has helped it by introducing a framework to build upon. The DAS test does nothing like this. I don't ride to any rigid and mechanistic set of rules, but I do approach things logically and sequentially. I don't claim that that's a correct approach but it works for me.

Why don't you ride to the system now? you seem to sing it's praises highly enough :???:

kitkat

26-02-09, 11:35 PM

I think you'd be daft not to consider some sort of advanced training, but equally daft to try one straight after DAS and convince yourself it is the be-all and end-all of biking.

what is so daft about doing advanced training immediately after DAS? I didnt want to pick up bad habits. I am also a mum and wanted to be as safe as is possible on a bike. I fail to see that having more training is a silly thing. I also do not think that advanced training is the be all and end all of biking. I feel its just a good grounding. Enabling me to go out riding new roads and feeling confident and happy. When I started riding after DAS I didnt like going out riding with other as I was scared about getting left behind and getting lost. Now I still get lost but I keep up (usually):p

joshmac

26-02-09, 11:36 PM

My worries about IAM is cost, but would like to give it a try. Did someone say there are taster observed rides available?
Yeah apparently they do a free observed ride so you can see what it's like before you part with your hard earned.

yorkie_chris

26-02-09, 11:37 PM

I never said it was daft. In fact it is a sensible thing to do. I think it is daft to become blinkered to other types of training, other ways of learning.

joshmac

26-02-09, 11:37 PM

Now I still get lost ...:p
Couldn't be a GM member if you didn't ;) hehe

kitkat

26-02-09, 11:40 PM

Hmmmm the more I read comments like this the more I worry about riding schools. My DAS instructor taught me about brakes and gears, he was suprised that I knew about counter steering, weight shifting (from MTB) and road postioning. My car instructor (in 1980/81) taught me about vanishing point, using other cues on road direction (hedges, telegraph poles, etc). Was I lucky with my instructors when I was learning?

My worries about IAM is cost, but would like to give it a try. Did someone say there are taster observed rides available?

My DAS was over 2 weekends. It was all about getting as many people thru the training as possible. Taught me u turn, hill start, emergency stop and life savers and that was about it. I didnt lean in corners, did all training in town, went straight over at roundabout. Passed test, took bike for a wee run and ended up doing 300 miles as I didnt feel confident turning right - scary but true:eek:

contact your local group and ask about taster. My local group used to let you do one observed run before signing up.

Stu

26-02-09, 11:54 PM

Did someone say there are taster observed rides available?
Yes definitely you can do one taster, I doubt many groups would be willing to give you several. TBH you'll probably make up your own mind on the first one anyway.
But it does make me very nervous, I observed a forum member have a free assessed ride (I was just training so wasn't at all in control of it) and it was so short that I don't think they got a fair chance of seeing what the beneefits could be.
When I started, I'm glad I had already made the decision to do it so I had signed up before I went out, I also started with the attitude that I wanted to do it and was looking forward to getting the most from it

Holdup

26-02-09, 11:57 PM

Ive considered some sort of course im only 17 but i think it would intrest me to learn new skills and apply them, most people will agree when your young you can be stupid on bikes / in cars but then even if your not your stereotyped because of some lad in his nova making your insurance go up, road safety course should be widely available and free for not just young people but everybody and i bet its cost a lot less than clearing up after an accident

Sally

27-02-09, 12:00 AM

What that Man Said :)

dizzyblonde

27-02-09, 12:25 AM

tsh, with all this arguing, I think I'll stick with my safe, slightly slow, but very observational riding thanks. Clean license and 5 yrs no claims. Don't need a badge to say I'm a good or bad rider. Won;t ride fast because somebody goads me to, ride to my own capablilites and not to what someone wants to push me to.
I've considered advanced training, but what would they teach me?
I learnt to ride a bike when I did my DAS not just something to pass a test. Since been to same centre to get a job, and they'd have me. Won't stand for anybody criticising my riding unless it was dangerous.

So, think I'll let you all keep this IAM, RoSPA, Bikesafe....unless I was taken to one side and told I was a danger to other people and it would be advisable before I killed myself

you've all just scared me off extra training anyways!

Stu

27-02-09, 12:25 AM

Is there the emphasis on sticking to the NSL, or is it bent a bit like the Bikesafe courses?
Havent been with bikesafe or IAM, just going on what i hear on the org..
If you're still looking for an answer for this.....
For the IAM observing, they are trying to ensure your standard matches the IAM standard for the test, and that means observing every single traffic law, because if you break the law then you should not* pass the IAM test. (I think the same applies for the licence test :smt102).

*On my test I was praised for exceeding the 30 mph limit as it made overtaking a peleton of cyclists safer

So my experience of IAM training - learn to ride the 30s 40s 50s as you're supposed to and the Nationals are mostly country lanes that the speed limit being 60 is not much of a limiting factor in how fast you can ride, and overtakes you could well be lucky and find the examiner will admit to being more focused on following you on the overtake than watching his speedo

That said, once you get to the social rides in IAM groups, speed limits in Nationals tend to be interpreted fairly loosley.

So what other road laws do you want to break other than speed limits? Because I generally don't find myself wanting to break any, ever, unless they involve solid lines either white or yellow ;)

Stu

27-02-09, 12:27 AM

What that Man Said :)
People don't appreciate things they don't have to pay for!

Sally

27-02-09, 12:28 AM

Nono i just meant the speed things..
Not really an issue anyways.
Thanks.

Holdup

27-02-09, 12:33 AM

People don't appreciate things they don't have to pay for!

I do!things like that should be free but optional, if i was offered it to improve my skills id snap at it and in a way b proud knowing that ive acomplished something to make me a safer road user

matt_rehm_hext

27-02-09, 03:23 AM

I'm 21 and I joined Thames Vale Advanced Motorcyclists (IAM Group) as a friend paid for me very kindly and learnt a lot in my free observed ride. Boosted my confidence so much in 2 hours.

My observer was Mark_h (on these forums) and he helped me to see where I was going wrong (very simple errors) in controlling and sitting on my bike, now I ride so much better and safer.

After doing another observed run (yesterday) with my assigned observer, I find I'm thinking and riding so much safer and getting places quicker sometimes.

Matt

darylB

27-02-09, 09:21 AM

[quote=Luckypants;1800682]Hmmmm the more I read comments like this the more I worry about riding schools. My DAS instructor taught me about brakes and gears, he was suprised that I knew about counter steering, weight shifting (from MTB) and road postioning. My car instructor (in 1980/81) taught me about vanishing point, using other cues on road direction (hedges, telegraph poles, etc). Was I lucky with my instructors when I was learning?

My worries about IAM is cost, but would like to give it a try. Did someone say there are taster observed rides available?[/quote

Yes you can do a free assessment ride if you ask at your local group. As an observer reading this thread i cannot understand some of the vitroilic comments certain people have posted, yes the cost seems high but it is nothing to do with the observers, we are people who have decided to do the test, got a lot out of it and decided to give up our spare time to help others who are interested. The fact is that people who have done the IAM test have @ 70% fewer accidents. None of the other observers i know are pipe smoking slipper wearing Know it alls and most ride sports/ touring bikes, ie, Thundercat, VFR 800, Fireblade, Blackbirds etc, Yes, some ride BMW's and Pans, and do not get left behind on rideouts, in fact keeping up with them can be a challenge. Two of my associates have both been in incidents on the road due to other drivers and both have said the end result would hane been worse if not for the training, so the cost of the training to them has already been repaid many times over. So please don't tar all observers with the same brush, go and have a free assessment and see what you think, there is no obligation to join if you don't think it's for you. Above all don't be put off by negative comment by some people on the site, we are all (hopefully) able to make our own minds up and the only way to do this is to try it yourself.

Daryl.