View Full Version : ID Cards. Again.
MiniMatt
20-03-09, 01:59 PM
I know this one's been done to death but I thought it interesting that finally released to the public reviews (after five years of legal wrangling I might add) show that the Police are very much keen on compulsion to carry, compulsion to produce, and DNA biometrics on the cards.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/03/20/gateway_id_cards/
All the rubbish about how they'll benefit the individual more than the state and how carrying won't be compulsory and they won't contain DNA biometrics and the like is now easily seen (as was so often predicted) as just the entry position to get them in in the first place. The very first time some incompetent terrorist spectacularly fails to set fire to anyone other than himself outside a Glasgow airport or some such we'll see the rush through of sneak ammendments. Each one doubtless heralded by "if you've nothing to hide you've nothing to fear".
I really really do not want this country to be one where you go to the park to play footie with your kids and they get to see daddy being carted away in a police van ("watch your head sir") because he wasn't carrying his ID.
Locked up for not carrying your "papers" versus living in a Police state more or less comes down to the same thing, no freedom. Damn it, for the first time in my life I find myself contemplating tactical voting and siding with the Blues next election - except I fear Cameron just says anything the latest focus group tells him to say, the Yellows I trust a bit more to their beliefs, but meh... what are the chances.
And before everyone just dismisses this as the left v. right, liberal yoghurt agenda bear in mind that even the BNP are quite keen on the Human Rights Act and freedom of speech when they find them in their interest. The concept of freedom should pretty much cross the political divide.
"Nothing to hide, nothing to fear"? That could be interpreted as "do nothing wrong and we'll leave you alone" - that's pretty much how western democracies have been run in the past. The interpretation we're moving toward however is "tell us everything you do, and we'll decide if it's wrong or not".
Biker Biggles
20-03-09, 05:24 PM
Now theres something you and I can agree about.
the_lone_wolf
20-03-09, 05:30 PM
Anarchy is better than no government at all...
Anarchy is better than no government at all...
Surely anarchy IS no government?
ID cards - stoopid idea, from stoopid people who don't understand security.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_BYX14125JUQ/RpcZFsc49YI/AAAAAAAADVc/jNcSCm0LzMk/s400/Security_Measures_Bypassed.jpg
the_lone_wolf
20-03-09, 06:18 PM
Surely anarchy IS no government?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v245/jeff30997/rainer_wolfcastle.gif?t=1237573108
"That's the joke..."
;)
Biker Biggles
20-03-09, 06:21 PM
I used to be an anarchist but they threw me out for not obeying the rules.
Surely anarchy IS no government?
"That's the joke..."
;)
I refuse to understand sarcasm on a Friday night :cool:
Tiger 55
20-03-09, 06:24 PM
Well I've got nothing to hide.
Not from this government anyway. Can't speak for the next one, or the one after that...
Spiderman
20-03-09, 06:25 PM
..... Each one doubtless heralded by "if you've nothing to hide you've nothing to fear"....
Just like our old friend Jack Straw and his decision to hide from the public for the next 30years the meetings that took us into an illegal war..
Clearly they had nothing to fear so they hid that not damaging evidence away from us for our own good, right?
Gosh we should know better that to ask questions of our govt when we doubt their honesty and we really need to get ID cards to make our lives so much easier. Mine is so complex right now that i think the only thing that will help is a small piece of plastic.
Democracy? Who the fek ever made that word up in the first place and what the hell was wrong with our ancestors that they didn't lynch the idiot on the spot?
Well I've got nothing to hide.
More sarcasm?
Tiger 55
20-03-09, 06:28 PM
More sarcasm?
Hey!
Milky Bar Kid
20-03-09, 07:19 PM
:rolleyes:Folks, I'm not argueing with anyone here but why is everyone so against this?
I appreciate some peoples concerns but to be honest, before long our passports will contain our fingerprints and other biometric data, we all have driving licence's and the govt already have everything they could ever want to know about us on rec ord anyway so why do we object to the ID card proposal so much?
Anyway, if the security services tell the govt it will help fight terrorism then there probably is no point in moaning about it because ALL the parties will do what the security service tells them too!!:rolleyes:
:rolleyes:Folks, I'm not argueing with anyone here but why is everyone so against this?
I appreciate some peoples concerns but to be honest, before long our passports will contain our fingerprints and other biometric data, we all have driving licence's and the govt already have everything they could ever want to know about us on rec ord anyway so why do we object to the ID card proposal so much?
Anyway, if the security services tell the govt it will help fight terrorism then there probably is no point in moaning about it because ALL the parties will do what the security service tells them too!!:rolleyes:
At the moment, if you don't have your passport on you, you don't fly to foreign lands. That's kind of expected as you're crossing a border. Fingerprints/Biometric's is a little OTT, yes, but if it's a case of "give us the details or you don't get a passport" then you have a choice. Give the details or don't go on foreign holidays.
With ID cards, it's more a case of being on a night out in your local town, being approached by an officer because you're being a bit rowdy, and finding your night cut short because you didn't have your ID card with you (I don't have my driving licence on me when I go on a night out, why should I carry other forms of ID? I haven't done that since I was underage... :rolleyes:).
No passport, no holiday. No ID card, night in the cells. Not quite the same level is it?
Milky Bar Kid
20-03-09, 07:47 PM
I don't really think that's the idea behind the cards.
I think it's one of these issues that someone will always have something to say about it.
At the end of the day, I have a warrant card, a driving licence, national insurance card and a passport! There is nothing else the Govt could possibly want to know about me. Perhaps they could scrap other cards and just have one card. Maybe. But then, that might be a logical idea.....so it wont happen.....
i don't really think that's the idea behind the cards.
I think it's one of these issues that someone will always have something to say about it.
At the end of the day, i have a warrant card, a driving licence, national insurance card and a passport! There is nothing else the govt could possibly want to know about me. Perhaps they could scrap other cards and just have one card. Maybe. But then, that might be a logical idea.....so it wont happen.....
good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws.
hth
I don't really think that's the idea behind the cards.
That's what they're telling you now. Re-read some comments in this thread (forgetting about the other posts on the .Org, or even in the press).
Once the cards are in, it's only a matter of time before the potential is abused. Why let them be established with this in mind?
EDIT: Oh, and if ID cards do happen, please, someone, anyone, tell me that they'll be more secure than those contact-less bank cards that are touted now & again. Those, I hope do come in, because I stand to earn a lot of money. :)
rick0361
20-03-09, 07:53 PM
I'd just rather see the money that they are going to throw at this in an attempt to make it work spent on something much more worthwhile like finding a bloody cure for cancer or something similar.
Tiger 55
20-03-09, 08:33 PM
There is nothing else the Govt could possibly want to know about me.
What they want to know is can they lock you up for not having your papers.
Answer yes.
papers please sure ive heard that before meh goes back to playing medal of honour.
EDIT: Oh, and if ID cards do happen, please, someone, anyone, tell me that they'll be more secure than those contact-less bank cards that are touted now & again. Those, I hope do come in, because I stand to earn a lot of money. :)
Well no, of course it isn't.
Biometric passports have been cracked. Somebody in clogland has Elvis on theirs :-|
ethariel
20-03-09, 08:52 PM
Damn it, ID cartds are soooo old, just brand everyone with a serial number right in the centre of the forehead, lop off both ears and a finger for every 10k a year over 30k you earn (digit tax).
Let's see anyone want to come live here then!
All mutilations are compulsary when any of the below criteria are met.
1- You are in the UK
2- You are caught trying to get the hell out
3- You are blind deaf, dumb and stupid and trying to get in
4- You are born
All issues solved, just coz i work at the Home Office does not mean this is an expression of any formal think tank or personal idea of any person other than the poster's deranged mind in any way shap for or way not thought of at the time of writing this stupid pointless disclaimer.
On a serious note - to many civil servants are employed in pushing this freaking stupid and pointless card through (just watch, £200 each and need to be renewed every 4 to 10 yeares at YOUR expense) to even think about dropping it now......
Kilted Ginger
20-03-09, 08:52 PM
Sorry to all you anarchy types, I have nothing to hide and therefore quite happy to carry an I'd, it will fit in my wallet next to my driving licence and bank cards. If it stops one person comitying one crime then all for it.
Scenario, you have to swipe I'd card to get into nightclub, proves your age, girl is attacked in toilets of said club. Police have instant list of all possible witnesses / suspects. Win win.
Really don't understand the opposition for this.
Sorry to all you anarchy types, I have nothing to hide and therefore quite happy to carry an I'd, it will fit in my wallet next to my driving licence and bank cards. If it stops one person comitying one crime then all for it
By the same token you are then quite happy for the government to install cameras INSIDE your house at your expense. You have nothing hide right? Most domestic violence happens in the home and if it stops one crime then you're all for it. Right?
By the same token you are then quite happy for the government to install cameras INSIDE your house at your expense. You have nothing hide right? Most domestic violence happens in the home and if it stops one crime then you're all for it. Right?
why stop there lets fit gps tracking to every car and motorbike so they can see where were going and how fast we got there :rolleyes: if youve got nothing to hide.
Biker Biggles
20-03-09, 09:00 PM
If you think total deference to an allseeing allknowing authority is a good idea have a look at Singapore.
Yes there is very low crime,but the price they pay is to live in the most bland and souless human desert anywhere on the planet.No thanks,give me a bit of zest and life any day.
the_lone_wolf
20-03-09, 09:04 PM
...look at Singapore. Yes there is very low crime,but the price they pay is to live in the most bland and souless human desert anywhere on the planet.
what about wolverhampton?
Nick762
20-03-09, 09:04 PM
"Nothing to hide, nothing to fear"? That could be interpreted as "do nothing wrong and we'll leave you alone" - that's pretty much how western democracies have been run in the past. The interpretation we're moving toward however is "tell us everything you do, and we'll decide if it's wrong or not".
My thoughts exactly. If I haven't done anything wrong why should the state need to know any more about me other than my Tax and NI details. I don't bother the state, the state doesn't bother me, sounds fair.
I'd like to know just how these cards are supposed to be any better than anything else so far. OK, they have biometric data embedded but it's no big deal to produce a forged card with the retina or finger print of the holder. Chip and PIN was supposed to be the last word in fraud prevention but it wasn't long before people were pointing out how it could be circumvented. To paraphrase E E "Doc" Smith, anything that technology can create, the same technology can analyse and duplicate...
The only way I can think to make it anything like secure is to have a central database against which the card and the holder are checked in real time. That means everyone with a reason to check ID, which I imagine will extend to employers and landlords as well as numerous public employees since it is being touted as a weapon against illegal workers and fraud as well as terrorism, is going to need access to some sort of terminal. If the government record on delivering IT projects is anything to go by I just can't see that happening, at least not this century.
My objection is this, the whole ID card scheme is being sold as a silver bullet which will solve all our criminal, immigration, housing, benefit, employment problems in one fell swoop. In principal it's a great idea but in practice it is going to be expensive, bureaucratic and too many reputations are riding on it for the plan to be viewed objectively.
Kilted Ginger, please can you explain how having these things will stop crime?
I am completely opposed to this gross invasion of privacy and liberty. I have nothing to hide but why should I prove that I have nothing to hide?
Sorry to all you anarchy types, I have nothing to hide and therefore quite happy to carry an I'd, it will fit in my wallet next to my driving licence and bank cards. If it stops one person comitying one crime then all for it.
Scenario, you have to swipe I'd card to get into nightclub, proves your age, girl is attacked in toilets of said club. Police have instant list of all possible witnesses / suspects. Win win.
Really don't understand the opposition for this.
OK, lets assume they use the same contact-less technology the banks are trying to push (seen the water slide advert?).
With that technology, I can read and clone the card from approx 50ft away. Seriously. People with more cash to throw at hardware can do it further. EDIT: I'd best clarify, the (very limited) technology I have access to, would clone every card within approx 50ft, not just individual ones.
So, using your own example, the police have a list of people in the club, and you're surprised when you get a knock on the door. You're shocked because you were tucked up in bed, alone (no witness to your statement), but your ID card was in the nightclub. This happened because of someone you sat next to on the train 3 weeks ago cloned your card.
Do you still want one, using just your own example?
the_lone_wolf
20-03-09, 09:21 PM
- £2 700 000 000 000 (yes...that's £2.7 quadrillion)
and then a small voice piped up at the back...
no it's not, that's 2.7 trillion
;)
edit: too slow mate...:p
Tiger 55
20-03-09, 09:26 PM
I have nothing to hide
I've got nothing to hide
Well we'll be OK then wont we? ;)
Unless the government decides something we do is a crime - speaking out against the government springs to mind - and we can't move from A to B to meet our fellow criminals because the cops* can ID us in the street or arrest us for failing to provide ID.
* - Cops are good people, they catch bad guys and I am a good guy. The cops referred to here are simply the product of the totalitarian state ID cards are a sure and certain step towards.
gettin2dizzy
20-03-09, 09:29 PM
and then a small voice piped up at the back...
no it's not, that's 2.7 trillion
;)
edit: too slow mate...:pI got confused by the daft anglo-american numerical arguments :lol: But either way, it's bonkers!
Deleted it until I've finished making dinner. Brain doesn't operate without curry + beer ;)
the_lone_wolf
20-03-09, 09:33 PM
I got confused by the daft anglo-american numerical arguments :lol:
clearly:p
it was 2.7 trillion american
2.7 billion british
not sure where the quadrillion came from dude, too much star trek and not enough food;)
gettin2dizzy
20-03-09, 09:42 PM
clearly:p
it was 2.7 trillion american
2.7 billion british
not sure where the quadrillion came from dude, too much star trek and not enough food;)
Hehe. It was lazy googling ;)
Don't believe a word you read on the net!
(ps.....I'm the stig).
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