View Full Version : Abortion
Do you think its right or wrong?
Poll to follow.
depends on the circumstances, if they cant look after it then they shouldnt have it
If they cant look after it, then give it away for adoption. Theres plenty of sterile couples that would be happy to have some teenagers mistake. I dont think its right that the baby should be killed because of some careless c0ck up.
always always always......now shoot me down
Im not going to shoot you down :)
But why?
timwilky
28-03-09, 01:44 PM
Very contentious poll this.
I believe the mother has every right to decide. However, I also think the father has rights too. He should never stop her, but if he should be allowed his say.
An unwanted pregnancy is a disaster for all concerned, the mother,father, greater family and society
because it is the nature of a human being to make a mistake.And I belive it is the right of a woman to chose what she does with her own body,mind and future
I tried to word is as unbiased as possible.
I aggree that it should have to be a mutual decision. But is the disaster great enough to justify ending the unborns life? (this can start the argument of 'when does life begin')
timwilky
28-03-09, 01:52 PM
YES an unwanted child is a huge disaster, the mental harm it does to the mother is far greater than the harm an abortion can bring.
Strange it is so for only blokes in this thread. We have no rights to decide what a woman does with her body. If is her choice.
I saw my brother in law in tears when his then girlfriend had an abortion, he was desperate to have children. He came out with the stupid heat of the moment comment "I am going to kill her", she ran off to the cops (she was an ex copper), result he spent 6 weeks banged up in Strangeways nick on remand for making threats to kill before the case was dropped. I argued with my wife, his sister as to the girls rights at the time. Steve had even offered to bring up is child etc. But she did not want to go through a pregnancy and that is her right.
fizzwheel
28-03-09, 01:55 PM
I think its always OK, but its not a decision thats taken lightly and neither is the decision to keep a baby one thats taken lightly either.
Final choice lies with the mother.
Magnum....give us your thoughts
YES an unwanted child is a huge disaster, the mental harm it does to the mother is far greater than the harm an abortion can bring.
Strange it is so for only blokes in this thread. We have no rights to decide what a woman does with her body. If is her choice.
The reason i think it is wrong is that there are other options, such as giving away the baby at birth. If the mother was even considering aborting the child, then it shouldnt be hard at all to give it away to someone who cannot conceive themselves. Then after 9 months of being pregnant, she can return to work as normal. As far as i know, women work whilst pregnant for a very large period of the pregnancy (7 or 8 months?). Its not all that much of an inconvenience in my opinion.
I think its stupid how a father has no say. (i didnt actually know this was the case till you mentioned it). It is 50% his child, and 50% the mothers child. The fact that she carries it does not make it right that she has 100% of the decision.
Everyone should have a choice in all aspects of life..
living in a 'democracy' means we have the right to choose..
Magnum....give us your thoughts
Well, im fed up of hearing how easy abortion is, and that parental permission actually isnt needed a lot of the time. Its a decision that is made too lightly due to how quick and easy it is.
I believe that life begins at conception, and although the baby cannot feel pain up to 24 weeks, it is still potential for a normal healthy life.
I obviously havnt been in the situation myself to judge, but i dont think it is that much of an inconvenience to have an unwanted child, and even if it was an 'inconvenience' its not a large enough one to justify terminating the child. Like ive already mentioned, there are other options which kill two birds with one stone. There have been enough teen pregnancy documentaries to show that a normal life still can be led, even at stupidly young ages like 13. I think there was a case of someone mentioned on this forum about a 14 year old who had a baby, it will be interesting to hear her opinions.
However, i think abortion IS OK when the mother/baby are in danger. If i was told my child has a 50%+ chance of being born severely disabled, i would abort it to avoid the pain for him/her. Also, if the mother had a large chance of death during birth, i think abortion is also justified.
Its all down to personal opinion, and although i feel strongly that its wrong, i respect others opinions and dont judge people by what they think.
fizzwheel
28-03-09, 02:06 PM
Its a decision that is made too lightly due to how quick and easy it is.
Then I'd suggest if you havent you go and talk to somebody thats had an abortion and ask them how it made them feel. If you think its an "easy" option you couldnt be further from the truth.
Two of my friends had abortions, its not an easy thing to consider doing, to actually do and to live with afterwards...
tigersaw
28-03-09, 02:07 PM
Make it illegal and we're back to a bottle of vodka and a knitting needle.
dizzyblonde
28-03-09, 02:08 PM
Yes its always ok as far as I'm concerned. And the term is not abortion its 'termination' technically.
What I have a gripe over is that when you suffer from having a miscarriage, and you have to go to have the op to remove, that they put termination on your records, no matter how far in the pregnancy you are.
It up to a mother to decide. And no matter what the circumstance its a decision that is not pondered over lightly. You can't condemn any woman for making the decision.
dizzyblonde
28-03-09, 02:12 PM
Its a decision that is made too lightly due to how quick and easy it is.
.
ok, come have a conversation with me, I bet I could change your mind quicker than it takes to make the decision to terminate a pregnancy
ok, come have a conversation with me, I bet I could change your mind quicker than it takes to make the decision to terminate a pregnancy
:confused: I dont quite get that. Are you saying you could convince me quickly, or that you think the decision to terminate is quick?
dizzyblonde
28-03-09, 02:18 PM
In other words in stead of harping on about something you have no experience about come and chat to someone who has
If i've offended you, then sorry. Its not my intention with this thread, i just wanted to see other peoples views.
Yes its always ok as far as I'm concerned. And the term is not abortion its 'termination' technically.
What I have a gripe over is that when you suffer from having a miscarriage, and you have to go to have the op to remove, that they put termination on your records, no matter how far in the pregnancy you are.
It up to a mother to decide. And no matter what the circumstance its a decision that is not pondered over lightly. You can't condemn any woman for making the decision.Is that why they don't distinguish between miscarriage & abortion in your records? :???:
In other words in stead of harping on about something you have no experience about come and chat to someone who has
+1
dizzyblonde
28-03-09, 02:29 PM
not offended, its just not a subject I have excetionally strong views about. Having experienced twice.
A)when I was 19 and had to make a serious decision about it.
B) having a miscarriage a year later, and having a baby removed.(like I said is still classed as termination)
The likelyhood the first child would have gone further(loking back at my history) would probablly have resulted in miscarriage anyway. My son was nearly born at 26 weeks, its a miracle hes actually here.
So decisions decisions, a woman certainly does not take it lightly. A moral judgement call, no matter who you are, how old you are. Its stuck in your mind forever. The people who help you make the decision don't just sign a form willy nilly either. You have to convince them why you want a termination. They also offer councelling before and after too.
dizzyblonde
28-03-09, 02:33 PM
Is that why they don't distinguish between miscarriage & abortion in your records? :???:
I have no idea, but losing a baby kinda makes you feel **** as it is without putting a stigmatic(right word?) phrase on your records. It wasn't a bloody termination, I wanted the baby. It died. They had to remove, as nature didn't remove it for herself.
It was something I got quite hacked off over for a while.
not offended, its just not a subject I have excetionally strong views about. Having experienced twice.
A)when I was 19 and had to make a serious decision about it.
B) having a miscarriage a year later, and having a baby removed.(like I said is still classed as termination)
The likelyhood the first child would have gone further(loking back at my history) would probablly have resulted in miscarriage anyway. My son was nearly born at 26 weeks, its a miracle hes actually here.
So decisions decisions, a woman certainly does not take it lightly. A moral judgement call, no matter who you are, how old you are. Its stuck in your mind forever. The people who help you make the decision don't just sign a form willy nilly either. You have to convince them why you want a termination. They also offer councelling before and after too.
What do you mean when you say the child would probably resulted in a miscarriage? (please dont feel like you have to answer if its personal)
dizzyblonde
28-03-09, 02:38 PM
I don't actually mind, its personal, of course it is, but its nature.
Some women are somehow designed so that pregnancy is very difficult. All pregnancies have thier ups and downs, pregnancy is actually hard work!. I seem to be one of those women that have difficulty in keeping a baby going in early stages. My mum had many miscarriages in between having us three kids. So for me I imagine its genetic
My son was nearly born at 26 weeks. The likelyhood of surviving is obviously a lot less than full term. Fortunately for me, the drugs that were given to me, stopped the process, and I went through the rollercoaster ride I had through the rest of the pregnancy, to which the little so and so decided to come late!
There are many women that miscarry a lot. Some women have difficuty concieving, just like some men have difficulty providing their little fish ;-)
Its just nature.
I don't actually mind, its personal, of course it is, but its nature.
Some women are somehow designed so that pregnancy is very difficult. All pregnancies have thier ups and downs, pregnancy is actually hard work!. I seem to be one of those women that have difficulty in keeping a baby going in early stages. My mum had many miscarriages in between having us three kids. So for me I imagine its genetic
There are many women that miscarry a lot. Some women have difficuty concieving, just like some men have difficulty providing their little fish ;-)
Its just nature.
Im glad to hear your son made it after 26 weeks, it is very young. The limit of 24 weeks for a termination is hard to think about when they can still survive around that age.
skeetly
28-03-09, 02:53 PM
I don't think it should be illegal.
There should be as much help as possible available to anyone considering it. (Theres a lot more than there used to be for sure).
TBH if you want to avoid most abortions stop yougsters from getting drunk (1). Speaking from experience thats when an awful lot of conceptions happen whether they're desired or not.
It's not fair to expect a young girl to stop everything, carry a baby to term and then give it away just because of a moment of passion/madness. That is, potentially; two people in the world with some huge issues to deal with.
1.Seeing as this is impossible better have a back up plan eh?
gruntygiggles
28-03-09, 03:04 PM
The reason i think it is wrong is that there are other options, such as giving away the baby at birth. If the mother was even considering aborting the child, then it shouldnt be hard at all to give it away to someone who cannot conceive themselves. Then after 9 months of being pregnant, she can return to work as normal. As far as i know, women work whilst pregnant for a very large period of the pregnancy (7 or 8 months?). Its not all that much of an inconvenience in my opinion.
I think its stupid how a father has no say. (i didnt actually know this was the case till you mentioned it). It is 50% his child, and 50% the mothers child. The fact that she carries it does not make it right that she has 100% of the decision.
There's a lot that you've said in here that could really annoy me if it weren't for the fact that I know you have no way of knowing what it could be like to be a woman in this position. I do understand where you are coming from and you raise some points that I don't think many men haven't thought themselves at some point.
However......
To say that it is not all that much of an inconvenience is something that I think you need to have a think about and talk to your mum or any woman you know that has gone through a pregnancy.
I was unlucky enough to go through three and a half months of having an unviable pregnancy (too complicated to go into, but technically not a foetus, just a growing, multiplying mass of cells). I thought, as did the doctors that I was in fact pregnant for a lot of that time and my body went through all the hormonal and physical changes that come at the start of a pregnancy.
Imagine the last time you got so stupidly drunk, you had the hangover from hell the next day, or if you have ever had food poisoning. Your whole digestive system is thrown into turmoil. I spent three months feeling sick and half of that time, being sick. It's not just morning, it's all through the day.
Imagine thinking of every recipe under the sun for you to make some lunch or dinner and all of them make you feel like you could be and sometimes are sick at just the thought of them. Now imagine you think of one meal......just one thing that you think YES....I can eat that. You've not been able to hold any food down for the last few days, you are more hungry than you ever thought possible and finally you have thought of something to eat that you are actually looking forward to.
You get the ingredients, you cook it and can't believe it's not making you feel sick. You sit down at the table and put it on your fork with the biggest sense of satisfaction that you're actually going to enjoy something and then, just as you get it to your lips, you're body just says NO WAY and you are left to do all that you can to get to the toilet in time to throw up.
Now think about having to go through that every single day for three months. One of the common things is wanting to only eat carby stodgy foods. Potato waffles plain, chips, plain pasta. Imagine being out for the day in the summer enjoying yourself, tucking into a cone of plain chips and really enjoying them, then all of a sudden, getting that feeling and panicking as you need to find a toilet before you have a showground full of people watching you throw up. Then think about when you do......because you've been eating dry, starchy food, there isn't enough saliva to help it move, so you start to choke and have to open the toilet door and ask a passer by to give you their drink before you lose the ability to breathe.
I'm not trying to be disgusting, I'm trying to give you just a little insight as to how incredibly life changing it is just to go through those first three and a half months. Ask someone that's actually had a child and they'll tell you about all the backache, stretchmarks, inability to sleep due to lack of comfort, painful breasts, the total humiliation of giving birth and the lack of bodily control that comes in the last 6 months. Then there are the following months of having a belly that you can tuck into your pants and have to work really hard to get back into shape and the fears and worries that come with being intimate with your partner again for the first time, after your body has changed so much.
Now....what makes this bearable for most women is that they get a child at the end of it. To ask a woman to go through all of that when they don't want that child is in my opinion, out of order.
Even if you forget all of the physical turmoil, when the child is born, you will see it and hear it and know that it is your child. To ask a woman or even worse a teenage girl to go through that and give the child away would be incredibly emotionally damaging. That woman or girl would always have the memory of hearing her baby cry and watching it being carried away and so, I don't think it is right to ever think that doing that is something we can ask of any woman!
Where women or teenage girls choose to do this, it is their choice, so then there is no problem. What I am trying to say is, adoption can never be the answer to the problem of unwanted pregancies. It is just potentially far too much to ask of someone that doesn't want a child.
As for the man being able to have 50% of the choice as well....I do understand what you are saying, but again, it has to be the final choice of the woman and yes.........it is because it is her that has to carry the child. If we got to a point where a man could force a woman to carry his child and give it to him at birth, we might as well say that it's ok to force a woman to lie down and be raped be any man that walks by. It's a womans body, so what she does with it should be absolutely her choice and to get to a point where we can force any man or woman into doing unwanted things with their bodies will be a very very bad day for man.
I'm not sure I agree with women being able to use the law to force a father to pay maintenance for a child where the father did not want the child to be born in the first place. It's maybe not fair to make a man pay for a womans decision to keep a child if he wants and both agree that the father will have no part in the childs life.
Again, I'm not trying to push my opinions on you Magnum...we all have different opinions and are all equally entitled to them. Personally I don't like the idea of termination, bu I think it is a necessary and important option for women, whatever their reasons. It's also not something that is done lightly by anyone. When I had to have my D&C to remove the mass of cells and get my body back to normal, the ward was full of women, all there for differing reasons and I wouldn't have swapped places with any one of them. I count myself lucky that what I went through wasn't a real pregnancy as I was not in a position to have a child then. If it was real, I can't say what I would have done as it was not a decision I had to make.
Sorry such a long post.....just wanted to give some reasons behind my response to your posts.
It's a shame that fathers don't get better rights when a woman has a child that he wants as well and refuses proper access. But that's a whole other topic!
The fact that she carries it does not make it right that she has 100% of the decision.
Of course it does.
She has to carry it, nurture it, give birth to it. Then hand it over? Get PND? I doubt it. The amount of mental anguish that goes on even with a WANTED pregnancy is unbelievable, and to then add the UNWANTED element makes it all the more important that a woman has the choice of abortion.
If your gf/sister/friend was raped and got pregnant would you tell her to keep it? Would you make her bring up a reminder of that event for the rest of her life?
Yes its always ok as far as I'm concerned. And the term is not abortion its 'termination' technically.
What I have a gripe over is that when you suffer from having a miscarriage, and you have to go to have the op to remove, that they put termination on your records, no matter how far in the pregnancy you are.
thats odd about your notes. It shouldn't be classes as a TOP (termination of pregnancy)
I think it should be on your notes as an IUD (intra uterine death) with a D&E (dilation and evacuation). At the very least a MTOP (Medical TOP). The rules around notes are crazy
But then I dont know your circumstances. *hug*
Im glad to hear your son made it after 26 weeks, it is very young. The limit of 24 weeks for a termination is hard to think about when they can still survive around that age.
The chances of a baby surviving and being "fully functional" when born at 24 are terrifically tiny. Even 26 28 and 30 weeks are contentious. If you took away the life support more than likely none of them would make it.
IMHO you cant cook a cake without an oven or for half the time in the oven and expect it to turn out ok, the same way you cant make a baby without a woman, and it's not viable until it can survive outside the womb without her.
I have no idea, but losing a baby kinda makes you feel **** as it is without putting a stigmatic(right word?) phrase on your records. It wasn't a bloody termination, I wanted the baby. It died. They had to remove, as nature didn't remove it for herself.
It was something I got quite hacked off over for a while.
My wife had a miscarriage, we,d been told that do to an existing medical condition that she would be unlikely to have kids, but we kept on trying, eventually she fell pregnant and we went and told our whole family, friends everything, less than 24 hrs later she lost it, it was described as a 'spontaneous abortion' whatever it was called it was a horrible experience to have to go through, made worse by the fact I was in Scotland at the time working and didnt know till I got back next day, I cant imagine how hard it could be for someone to have to make that decision.
i'm with Tim and Fizz on this one.
Is that why they don't distinguish between miscarriage & abortion in your records? :???:
Stu - its a TOP (termination of Pregnancy) for abortion and Miscarriage
ive had 1 miscarriage (I was going to have a termination anyway) and 3 viable pregnancies. my pregnancies are rubbish with lot of medical intervention. as I was old during last pregnancy i had an amniocentesis to see if baby had downs or any other defect. i did not get results til 16 weeks. i had felt baby move and read all books on what foetus was like at every stage. i would still have had termination but it would not have been an easy option. but i personally feel i did not want to bring a child into the world who would maybe not be able to live independently - the responsibility would fall on my childrens head if i was not around. i realise some people with downs etc live a long and happy life but it was my choice along with my partner who thankfully agreed. luckily everything was ok and i now have 3 happy healthy kids.
i dont agree with termination as a form of contraception but that is a whole other problem
i dont agree with termination as a form of contraception but that is a whole other problem
+1
skeetly
28-03-09, 03:35 PM
Is abortion contraception?
I would have said no, but I knwo what you mean and I dont think people should stop worrying about getting starting pregnancies because abortion is available...
Some people dont use contraception, as they know abortion is availiable if they get 'unlucky'.
Thing for me is, when do you class a bunch of cells as a human being, see, my adopted daughters were both born very prematurely, 20 yrs ago they may not have survived and with the increase in medical knowledge premature babies are being born younger and going on to lead healthy lives, the other thing of course is that if you,re a bloke you might as well be a sperm donor in these cases, cos no one seems to give a **** how you might feel, when my wife miscarried it was my child that died as well, and yet I barely got a pat on the back, I know that the women has to go through it all and Im sure Ill get flamed for my comments but I just think that it should be a joint decision thats all
as much as possible it should be a joint decision. I know my OH and and I have very different views on it, for any reason. He wouldn't hesitate to abort a fetus that had downs or spina bifida, where as I am not so sure. I know that children with downs can go on to lead healthy and relatively fufilled lives. But I also know he'd leave me if I chose not to abort - what do you do. =/ (slightly off topic sorry)
men do seem to get a hard time when it comes to a TOP or miscarriage, sometimes they aren't involved enough, given enough counselling etc, like you say it's their baby too.
As for those who use abortion as contraception - getting pregnant is the leat of their worries, i'd be more concerned abour HIV or the various other STI's that are going about. :( Stupid people.
Biker Biggles
28-03-09, 03:55 PM
I believe that life begins at conception, and although the baby cannot feel pain up to 24 weeks, it is still potential for a normal healthy life.
However, i think abortion IS OK when the mother/baby are in danger. If i was told my child has a 50%+ chance of being born severely disabled, i would abort it to avoid the pain for him/her.
Cant have your cake and eat it mate.If you take the fundamentalist religeous view that life begins at conception you cant then approve of killing off the potentially severely disabled.Neither can you go for the deliberate killing of one "life" to save another.Which all goes to show that this subject is far more complex than a silly poll on a bike site can ever do justice to.
gruntygiggles
28-03-09, 03:56 PM
Thing for me is, when do you class a bunch of cells as a human being, see, my adopted daughters were both born very prematurely, 20 yrs ago they may not have survived and with the increase in medical knowledge premature babies are being born younger and going on to lead healthy lives, the other thing of course is that if you,re a bloke you might as well be a sperm donor in these cases, cos no one seems to give a **** how you might feel, when my wife miscarried it was my child that died as well, and yet I barely got a pat on the back, I know that the women has to go through it all and Im sure Ill get flamed for my comments but I just think that it should be a joint decision thats all
As I said in my OP, I think it has to be a womans decision finally whether to go through a termination or not. Not because I don't think a man has rights, but because I don;t think we can force each other to use our bodies against our will.
As for any case of miscarriage or a termination that is not wanted by the father, I totally agree that men seem to get very little support or thought in coping with these things.
I think men get all too easily forgotten when it comes to most issues surrounding children and the loss of children, both pre and post birth is, in my opinion, equally difficult for both man and woman. It's still a child that you have decided to have that you love from the moment you find out it is there and so when there is a miscarriage or death at any time in life, it is both the man and woman that lose that child and subsequently have to deal with that loss. Of course there are differences as it is the woman that carries the child, but in cases where children are lost, I think it is abohrant that men can be forgotten.
Miss Alpinestarhero
28-03-09, 05:21 PM
I think abortion is always ok as long as it is not being used as a method of contraception. The majority of women (& couples) wrestle with a decision as heavy as this, whereas the very few think its ok to have unprotected sex because they "can just get an abortion if they're pregnant"
Women should have the greatest influence in the decision because at the end of the day they are the ones that are carrying the child and will eventually give birth to it. That's not to say that I think men aren't allowed to have a role in the decision - of course they can. I just think that the final decision should be the womans.
I know someone who had an abortion - she was only 16. The circumstances weren't right: she was only a child herself and would not be able to give the child a life it deserved. Sure there are sterile couples who could have provided it with a home - but the trauma of giving birth then giving the child away would have been far too great. She still has bouts of guilt about the decision to this day but knows in her heart it was right.
The choice of abortion should never be removed. Especially when if the woman gets pregnant through awful circumstances i.e. rape
Maria
shonadoll
28-03-09, 05:44 PM
I think its always OK, but its not a decision thats taken lightly and neither is the decision to keep a baby one thats taken lightly either.
Final choice lies with the mother.
In an ideal world, I'd agree with you-but knowing a few people who have had more than one, and taken the decision very lightly, I don't.
I think abortion should be available for victims of rape, incest, and for some medical reasons, but it should be limited to 12-14 weeks, the law as it stands is a total outrage and it makes me very angry-babies can survive in many cases when born at the legal abortion limit, and that's reprehensible.:smt089
Cant have your cake and eat it mate.If you take the fundamentalist religeous view that life begins at conception you cant then approve of killing off the potentially severely disabled.Neither can you go for the deliberate killing of one "life" to save another.Which all goes to show that this subject is far more complex than a silly poll on a bike site can ever do justice to.
Im not taking a religious view on this, im not religious. I know the idea of life beginning at conception is religious, but i dont see when else the foetus become life, its a bit hard to judge.
In an ideal world, I'd agree with you-but knowing a few people who have had more than one, and taken the decision very lightly, I don't.
I think abortion should be available for victims of rape, incest, and for some medical reasons, but it should be limited to 12-14 weeks, the law as it stands is a total outrage and it makes me very angry-babies can survive in many cases when born at the legal abortion limit, and that's reprehensible.:smt089
+1 to this whole post. 24 weeks is ridiculous. Yeah the chances of survival are very limited, but its still possible. I heard quite a nasty story of a 'terminated' baby quite far along the line and it was left to die for hours in a metal bowl in the hospital. This obviously isnt a regular occurrance, but for a baby to survive outside the womb at a legal age for abortion, it worries me.
To the posts about abortion being used as contraception, i aggree, and this is the reason i started the thread in the first place. Someone i used to go to school with got pregnant, and just aborted it as soon as she found out. She does not go to school, does not work, and would have plenty of time and support from her family to look after a baby.
Im going to dig up a thread to show an example of someone doing the right thing...
Biker Biggles
28-03-09, 06:28 PM
Im not taking a religious view on this, im not religious. I know the idea of life beginning at conception is religious, but i dont see when else the foetus become life, its a bit hard to judge.
Religeon or not you miss the point.If you take the view that life starts at conception then you will be anti abortion in any circumstances or you will have to condone the taking of life.As most of the posts here demonstrate thats a bit simplistic,so we have to make difficult decisions which is why your simple yes or no poll is a daft question.
I dont see why i cant think that life starts at conception, and cannot think that in some circumstances the life cant be ended for the better? I dont see why life beginning at conception is an idea that cancells out justified abortion. Its the same for euthenasia, i think in some select circumstances it is justified.
The poll is just a general idea of peoples views. The thread itself is for the opinions in more detail.
I suppose relevant to this thread, here is what i was looking for http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=127028
Biker Biggles
28-03-09, 06:50 PM
The debate about euthanasia is slightly different.Its about adults in full command of their faculties coming to a decision about when their own lives should end.Terminating disabled people is what the Nazis did.Hence when does life begin and who is a person and who isnt?We have settled on the 24 week rule as a measure of when life is viable,but it is a much more fluid concept than "life begins at---"
If you listen to the Pope life seems to begin before conception as its a sin to use a condom??????
Mighty Boosh
28-03-09, 07:12 PM
I heard quite a nasty story of a 'terminated' baby quite far along the line and it was left to die for hours in a metal bowl in the hospital.
I find that quite hard to believe magnum. I thought when an abortion was carried out that to enable the feotus to be removed it was disected inside the womb.
Please also consider other countries where abortion is not available and new born babies are left to die in the "dying rooms".
Also the countries where unwanted children are left in a cot, mostly with others, to fend for themselves. Most if not all develop severe mental illness and, or psysical abnomalities. When too big for the cot they are tied to the furniture.
I think abortion is acceptable.
Milky Bar Kid
28-03-09, 09:38 PM
Having had to make the decision myself, I can tell you Magnum it was and probably will be the most difficult decision I have ever had to make.
I think about it frequently and wonder what might have been. I will never know if I have made the right decision.
I was 10 weeks when I had a STOP (surgical termination). I had arranged to go when I was 6 weeks and then I couldn't go through with it. I came home and made the decision to keep the baby and had told my Sergeant and was put onto light duties. Then I told my mother. Meanwhile, I felt AWFUL! I couldn't eat and I could't sleep. I had to pull over to be sick on my way to work.
Then one night, a week or so later, I thought I'd miscarried. I was in bits. I went to the Dr and they gave me a pregnancy test and it was still showing +ve but I was told that it wasn't reliable so I had to go for another scan which showed I was still pregnant.
I was made to feel like dirt that day because they were all talking over the top of me saying "Oh well, it wont matter to you anyway because you are getting rid of it."
Eventually came the day for the procedure. It was the most humilating and painful experience i have ever been through. I was in agony (was neary admitted to wards).
So Magnum, in short, I think perhaps before you judge people and their actions you should learn a bit more about what it actually entails and the pain and heartache women are left with.
As dad to four kids (three inherited) I think it's a decision that should be made by the woman in question. My eldest's mother never even considered it, even though she was only 17 when I got her pregnant and it put an end to her hopes of university. Later on in life one of my ex's terminated because she wasn't in the right state of mind or financially prepared to go through with it, despite me being all in favour of her having the baby. I may not have liked her decision at the time, but I respect it now.
It's the woman's life, it's her baby and therefore it's ultimately her decision... whether it be right or wrong in anyone else's eyes.
MBK, im not here to pass judgement, and i understand that everyones circumstances are different, and so are the reasons for going ahead with the procedure or not.
The main problem i see is that other people are using abortions as an easy way out after not taking care in the first place knowing that if anything happens they can just get rid of it. A lot of people make the decision lightly, and knowing of a situation recently where someone i know got pregnant and aborted without much thought - this provoked me to look at other peoples opinions.
Looking at your post, and some others in this thread, i can understand that not every case is the same and that it isnt always easy. If i have offended you then i am sorry because its not something i want to do.
Abortion shouldn't be an issue.
There should be an exam before you're even allowed to contemplate having a child.
Look at some of the scrotes that have been allowed to breed, Shannon Matthew, Baby P's parents etc, etc.
If you can't pass a simple exam, then bollox to your breeding rights, steralisation is the only way forward, by going down this route we might actually breed an intelligent society.
Vote Cuffy.
I will bring back hunting, swap the foxes for paedo's...TALLY HO!!!!
This post was brought to you by the letter c....for cider.
jamesterror
28-03-09, 10:03 PM
I think its down to a joint decision between woman and man, more the woman's than the man.
If it was me in the situation with current circumstainces, I would 100% disagree to a child, being unable to support the woman and child which I think could hinder and hold back their future which I'd disagree to.
I was struggling to find an appropriate reply to this thread...
I have no idea, but losing a baby kinda makes you feel **** as it is
+1.
Some people don't get the choice.
I think its down to a joint decision between woman and man, more the woman's than the man.
If it was me in the situation with current circumstainces, I would 100% disagree to a child, being unable to support the woman and child which I think could hinder and hold back their future which I'd disagree to.
So if a woman was raped do you think that the rapist should have a say in the matter?????
jamesterror
28-03-09, 10:08 PM
So if a woman was raped do you think that the rapist should have a say in the matter?????
Thats a different matter, I took it under the view of a man and women, either in a relationship or seeing other, and response to the question, no.
There's a lot that you've said in here that could really annoy me if it weren't for the fact that I know you have no way of knowing what it could be like to be a woman in this position.
- huge snip -
Thanks for your post (and yes, i did read all of it). It explains a lot of the process that i have no way of knowing myself, or will ever experience myself (thank god), and no, it doesnt sound easy (i cant even imagine having a period every month...).
Its interesting how you say it would be difficult for the mother to give away the child at birth. If it would be so difficult, then the mother obviously would have a bond with the child even if it was unwanted. But i think the point youre trying to make is not the lack of want for the child, but the inability to deal with having one, which makes sense.
The only part i disaggree on is the way you say the woman deserves 100% of the rights to choose whether or not to abort. Although she has to carry the child, it is still 50% of the fathers genes. I understand the dad gets it extremely easy for 9 months in comparison, but if i was with a woman who i got pregnant and i did not want the baby to be aborted, and i felt very strongly about it, i would feel terrible and powerless if she made the decision to terminate without my aggreement.
the_lone_wolf
28-03-09, 10:13 PM
Is abortion OK?
perhaps a more pertinent question would be:
"If it doesn't affect me, what business of mine is it?"
:-|
So if a woman was raped do you think that the rapist should have a say in the matter?????
I can see where JT is coming from, but im sure he only means when a man and a woman are in a relationship.
If a man gets a woman preganant and then flees the scene, then he has no right to say what should happen to the child he ran away from.
jamesterror
28-03-09, 10:15 PM
I can see where JT is coming from, but im sure he only means when a man and a woman are in a relationship.
If a man gets a woman preganant and then flees the scene, then he has no right to say what should happen to the child he ran away from.
Yeh its what I meant, and totally agree with your comment.
JohnMcL7
28-03-09, 10:15 PM
MBK, im not here to pass judgement, and i understand that everyones circumstances are different, and so are the reasons for going ahead with the procedure or not.
The main problem i see is that other people are using abortions as an easy way out after not taking care in the first place knowing that if anything happens they can just get rid of it. A lot of people make the decision lightly, and knowing of a situation recently where someone i know got pregnant and aborted without much thought - this provoked me to look at other peoples opinions.
Looking at your post, and some others in this thread, i can understand that not every case is the same and that it isnt always easy. If i have offended you then i am sorry because its not something i want to do.
You seem to be making quite a few generalisations which seem to be based on misconceptions, mainly that an abortion is 'easy' and so is taking a pregnancy all the way through to birth despite posts to the contrary in this thread. I don't know anyone who has found the decision to take an abortion 'easy' nor living with the consequences of the action which will be with them for the rest of their life. You seem to be viewing this as an exception rather than the rule but I'd be more inclined to believe it's the other way round. The statistics don't really support your view either especially looking at abortion rates in underage teenagers.
Similarly giving the child up for adoption isn't a quick fix to pregnancy, it's a very long process which is very draining both mentally and physically which doesn't end the moment the child is born even if the baby is going to be adopted.
You mentioned a fairly emotive argument about a foetus being aborted and left alive for some time outside the womb, while I doubt this did actually happen by forcing abortion 'underground' by either making social pressure against it or more tight medical restrictions it can only lead to more cases of abortions being attempted in unsuitable conditions.
I think that if the mother has good reason for requiring the abortion and a doctor agrees with these reasons then the abortion should be allowed. I should admit that I'm not a father nor have I been with a partner who has had an abortion however if I was with a hypothetical partner I'd never want to go against her wishes as it's not the right way to bring a child into this world on many levels.
John
perhaps a more pertinent question would be:
"If it doesn't affect me, what business of mine is it?"
:-|
It could well be my business at some point, and anyone else in a situation where it would be an option.
but if i was with a woman who i got pregnant and i did not want the baby to be aborted, and i felt very strongly about it, i would feel terrible and powerless if she made the decision to terminate without my aggreement.
So if you were to sign some form of agreement before you consented to sex and she became pregnant, would you then be happy to then bring that child up without any financial support from the woman?
Where as if you got someone up the swanny without your consent would you be happy to bring that child up and pay for it's up keep into society with limited access?????
So if you were to sign some form of agreement before you consented to sex and she became pregnant, would you then be happy to then bring that child up without any financial support from the woman?
Where as if you got someone up the swanny without your consent would you be happy to bring that child up and pay for it's up keep into society with limited access?????
Yes if she didnt want to see the child or be a part of its life.
the_lone_wolf
28-03-09, 10:23 PM
It could well be my business at some point...
then in that situation the judgement is for you to make...
until that day, it's a decision for a man and woman to make, with guidance from their doctor, and your opinion isn't required or particularly relevant...
I cant even imagine having a period every month.
Get a burd who suffers bad pmt, then you'll know what suffering is reallly like
dizzyblonde
28-03-09, 10:29 PM
The only part i disaggree on is the way you say the woman deserves 100% of the rights to choose whether or not to abort. Although she has to carry the child, it is still 50% of the fathers genes. I understand the dad gets it extremely easy for 9 months in comparison, but if i was with a woman who i got pregnant and i did not want the baby to be aborted, and i felt very strongly about it, i would feel terrible and powerless if she made the decision to terminate without my aggreement.
Well that I'm afraid would be pretty much tough poop IMO. It is a womans body that has to be put through it. Yes terrible and powerless it would feel, but to put a woman through something she would not wish, would be completely selfish. Not only do you have the first trimester of pregnancy to go through, chucking up, sleepless, hormonal, moody, not moody etc etc. If your reaally lucky you get the lot right through the entire pregnancy. Constantly prodded and poked by professionals, scanned, maybe told baby isn't growing properly, get worried, steroid injections to develop babies lungs(if going into premature labour like me) that feels like your having an orange passed through the skin on your butt, get tired, get fat, have the alien being rolling over your internal organs, surprise everyone, by going full term, throw up some more, start a slow labour three weeks early but go 8 days over, sit on babies head, as he can't be bothered to stay in.......oh its reall fun it is, maybe a man should be given an injection, so that he feels the lot, that way he wouldn't be against a womans decision if she didn't want to go through some of the above.........
and then theres after:rolleyes:
Its good that you ask us these questions, and indeed put your views across, as it only widens your eyes a little so to speak, rather than being narrow minded. Its better to go through life with your eyes wide open than your eyes wide shut;)
Yes if she didnt want to see the child or be a part of its life.
And then when she showed up after 18 years claiming parental rights you wouldn't have a leg to stand on.....it's a sad factor of life but every do gooder always favours the mother, be it social services, courts or the lesbian, i knit my own sandals out of yoghurt brigade.
As a bloke, you'll never win!!!!
Its good that you ask us these questions, and indeed put your views across, as it only widens your eyes a little so to speak, rather than being narrow minded. Its better to go through life with your eyes wide open than your eyes wide shut;)
On the plus side of making this thread it has opened my eyes, but in the process ive come accross as a c0ck :|
For the mums out there, after all that pain, worry, and anxiety... is it worth it having a child?
jamesterror
28-03-09, 10:41 PM
On the plus side of making this thread it has opened my eyes, but in the process ive come accross as a c0ck :|
I've heard a lot of women say men are c#cks, its your view, ultimatly its a woman's decision though as they have to go through it..
If I got my gf pregnant, we'd both agree to an abortion due to the fact we both plan to go to uni (seperating though) and think it will damage our futures and also that we wouldn't be able to support the child - Have had the conversation which I found useful as you know your position if it does happen :P but also their views.
dizzyblonde
28-03-09, 10:41 PM
On the plus side of making this thread it has opened my eyes, but in the process ive come accross as a c0ck :|
For the mums out there, after all that pain, worry, and anxiety... is it worth it having a child?
I DON'T see you as coming across as a c0ck. As i see it(from your avatar and no offense to you) that you are pretty young, and theres experiences in life your yet to encounter. Its perfectly acceptable to ask questions about a subject you thought that you were right about. If your thoughts still stand then thats fine, you've just gained more knowledge and fact from some that are happy to give you that from personal experience.
And yes, its worth having a child. I've said to a couple of folks(more male) its not until you have a child of your own in your arms do you actually know what life is all about, your whole world changes, most of the time for the better:D:cool:
On the plus side of making this thread it has opened my eyes, but in the process ive come accross as a c0ck :|
For the mums out there, after all that pain, worry, and anxiety... is it worth it having a child?
So the question is.....have you got someone in the family way?
I DON'T see you as coming across as a c0ck. As i see it(from your avatar and no offense to you) that you are pretty young, and theres experiences in life your yet to encounter. Its perfectly acceptable to ask questions about a subject you thought that you were right about. If your thoughts still stand then thats fine, you've just gained more knoweldge and fact from some that are happy to give you that from personal experience.
And yes, its worth having a child. I've said to a couple of folks(more male) its not until you have a child of your own in your arms do you actually know what life is all about, your whole world changes, most of the time for the better:D:cool:
Thanks. Yeah i am young (youngest on the forum i think?) just turned 17 in january. I can honestly say that my opinions have changed and are a little more liberal towards women choosing abortions, but i stand firm ground on the ones using it for contraception, which im sure you can aggree with since its the worst way to treat abortions.
So the question is.....have you got someone in the family way?
What do you mean?
My class had this discussion in college in an all boys class some how =\ I agree under certain circumstances, for me no offence to any one infact i respect them but if me and my partner were to have a child with an illness/disability of some sort then id agree with an abortion as i feel that i wouldnt be able to look after them or that they would have much of life or i could give them much of a life and a lot of people i know feel the same way.
dizzyblonde
28-03-09, 10:52 PM
yep, I feel that sort of thing is perhaps plain irresponsible......but still not really for me to comment about, as I've never been faced with it. There is contraception available, even up to the morning after pill, so to get to the ultimate point of a termination, if you've wasted your chances in the first place, you 'may' be just pretty dim.
It really is a last resort. Again though still not a decision taken lightly
What do you mean?
Just seems a bizzare(sp) thread to start, so to put it in ****wit terms.....have you got somebody pregnant?
Just seems a bizzare(sp) thread to start, so to put it in ****wit terms.....have you got somebody pregnant?
Oh... no its nothing personal. I was just a little frustrated when i found out that someone i used to know from school recently got an abortion, in my opinion for no good enough reason. She is not in college, and she doesnt work. She is still in a relationship with her boyfriend and has a lot of support from her family (same age as my by the way). I dont think it was justified in her particular situation.
I tried to word is as unbiased as possible.
I aggree that it should have to be a mutual decision. But is the disaster great enough to justify ending the unborns life? (this can start the argument of 'when does life begin')
Life begins when you have thoughts and feelings in my opinion! The majority of abortions are carried out when it's basically a golf ball of cells or smaller...no capacity for "thoughts" or "feelings" in there methinks! This is probably why there is the upper limit of when an abortion can be done! (unless there is a danger to the mother's health!)
The world is over populated as it is so abortion is fine in my opinion; not that I agree that silly little girls can have an abortion every other month or owt!
Oh... no its nothing personal. I was just a little frustrated when i found out that someone i used to know from school recently got an abortion, in my opinion for no good enough reason. She is not in college, and she doesnt work. She is still in a relationship with her boyfriend and has a lot of support from her family (same age as my by the way). I dont think it was justified in her particular situation.
Good justification there I reckon...she doesn't have a job and babies are bloody expensive to look after and I think it's unfair for people to rely on family to support them financially to take care of a baby. Plus, who really wants another baby paid for by the government!
PS. My thoughts and opinions are often "out there" and come across rash and arogant - I'm not forcing them upon anyone and it's what I like about free speech! ;)
Oh... no its nothing personal. I was just a little frustrated when i found out that someone i used to know from school recently got an abortion, in my opinion for no good enough reason. She is not in college, and she doesnt work. She is still in a relationship with her boyfriend and has a lot of support from her family (same age as my by the way). I dont think it was justified in her particular situation.
You might not know the full in's and outs of it, did the unborn child have a disability that would've put a strain on the relationship?
Does the mother have aspirations of having a decent career before settling down?
I've got friends that have fallen in to the latter part of the last statement and have decided to have kids later on in life when they're more financially stable and more in a mature state of mind to bring a child up.
Unless you know the full facts behind there decision you cant really prejudge.
dizzyblonde
28-03-09, 11:02 PM
Oh... no its nothing personal. I was just a little frustrated when i found out that someone i used to know from school recently got an abortion, in my opinion for no good enough reason. She is not in college, and she doesnt work. She is still in a relationship with her boyfriend and has a lot of support from her family (same age as my by the way). I dont think it was justified in her particular situation.
but that is a reason for not having a baby. Wether she works or not, she is still at college, and a baby can and probably will put all things on hold possibly put an end to it, so she'll end up sat on her butt at home with kids wishing she was in a better place in life. Then there would be a discussion about dole dossing mums etc, who are single at a young age (just hypothetically speaking)
Its not for you to decide if it was justified, you are only somebody who knows her.
but that is a reason for not having a baby. Wether she works or not, she is still at college, and a baby can and probably will put all things on hold possibly put an end to it, so she'll end up sat on her butt at home with kids wishing she was in a better place in life. Then there would be a discussion about dole dossing mums etc, who are single at a young age (just hypothetically speaking)
Its not for you to decide if it was justified, you are only somebody who knows her.
Shes not in college, thats the point im making. She has no obligations, and inifinite support from family if she actually got off her ar5e and got a job.
fizzwheel
28-03-09, 11:04 PM
I dont think it was justified in her particular situation.
To you maybe not, but have you talked to her, have you asked her why she did it and what her reasons were for doing it. What about her rights to make a choice or doesnt that count for anything ? You might want to take a second and try and look at things from her point of view and perhaps not be so quick to judge her maybe ?
Kids are a big commitment. I know at 17 I wouldnt have been able to be a dad, both emotionally or financially. If I'd have had a kid then it would have a miserable life, I wouldnt want to bring somebody into the world if I knew I wasnt able to cope with the responsibilities that brings. But then thats what contraception is for isnt it.
Wifey and I couldn't have kids by natural means. We adopted our daughter when she was 6 weeks old.
Her birth mother was 15. She was advised by many, I learned, to have an abortion. When I look at my beautiful little girl, and I have posted her photo on here many times, this tears my heart in two.
I don't like the idea of abortion. As Magnum says, using it as contraception is abhorrent. I do think it acceptable in cases of severe disability, rape, incest, and so on. 180,000 abortions a year (that's 550 - 600 every day) here tells me that there is a huge need for much better sex education. We need to stop being so bloody prudish about sex. We need to recognise that kids experiment, they always have and always will. We need to find ways of making sure that girls understand what can happen, and making sure that boys don't see getting their leg over as some sort of stupid conquest. And we need to make contraception easy.
A friend of one of my co-workers had an abortion. I know that she is going through hell over it.
What all this also says to me is how brave Sophie's birth mother was.
I think it depends on the individual circumstances, and the only people to judge someone or people having an abortion are the ones that go through those individual situations.
Wifey and I couldn't have kids by natural means. We adopted our daughter when she was 6 weeks old.
Her birth mother was 15. She was advised by many, I learned, to have an abortion. When I look at my beautiful little girl, and I have posted her photo on here many times, this tears my heart in two.
What all this also says to me is how brave Sophie's birth mother was.
Right, this is the main reason i disaggree with abortions generally. If the birth mother decided to have an abortion, Ed would not have the daughter today that he loves so much. The birth mother gave Ed and his wife a chance to have a child, and im sure there are many others in the same situation.
Ed, do you know anything about the birth mother and how she coped during/after the pregnancy? That seemed to be the main reason for people opposing the idea of giving a child away at birth.
Ed, do you know anything about the birth mother and how she coped during/after the pregnancy? That seemed to be the main reason for people opposing the idea of giving a child away at birth.
We know a great deal - but I don't have this information. We have told Sophie as much about her background as we believe that she can understand, and can cope with emotionally. There is more that we have not told her, we have to choose the timing carefully, but we don't want to keep it from her longer than is necessary. We know that her birth mother spent as little time in hopsital as she could - for her it was a terrible experience that she wanted to forget, she wanted to rebuild her life - and who can blame her?? She was only 15, after all, the birth father had buggered off, and she wanted to get back to school and have her life back.
I don't underestimate the enormity of what she did. She could so easily have had an abortion, but she put herself through all the stuff that Gruntygiggles has described.
Magnum has clearly been watching Juno tonight! ;)
@Ed - I agree that every child is sacred and I think it's really great that you have been able to adopt a baby. However, the flipside is that the adoption system is already over stretched (so the media tells us) and if there was a guarantee that every child would end up with a decent parent(s) then I would be less inclined to aprove abortion, except for in extenuating circumstances. Sad fact is that there isn't this guarantee so I do believe it's much better to 'remove' a few cells from a womans tummy than have the possibility of a child being moved from orphanage to orphanage, foster home to foster home (if this makes sense!)
It's obviously a sensitive subject for me. So many people seem to think that getting pregnant is as simple as falling off a log. Well for some it ain't, and I think you'd be amazed at how many people are in that boat.
For medical/health reasons (inc mental health) of mother or unborn then, in my view, it could be right depending upon circumstances. It is also very understandable when the pregnancy arises from a crime, i.e. "the r word".
However, as a lifestyle choice when there are no other factors (I don't count poverty or age amongst these) then I'm against it. It should not be an alternative to contraception.
It's obviously a sensitive subject for me. So many people seem to think that getting pregnant is as simple as falling off a log. Well for some it ain't, and I think you'd be amazed at how many people are in that boat.
My brother & his wife are (well, I should say were) in the same boat. Only they managed with IVF.
I spent a long time not having anything to do with him, mostly because of my feelings on the whole abortion/adoption issue. I still barely talk to him now.
I personally see IVF as being the most greedy thing a couple can consciously do.
The other thing i wanted to say is that this is one subject where one shouldn't judge other people or their motivations. No two sets of circumstances are the same.
Good thread, very thought-provoking.
The girl chose to have the baby and give it up for adoption. Commenable. However, the thought that anyone might be able to force a woman/girl to go through an accidental pregnancy is abhorrent.
If I accidentally got pregnant and didn't want it, I don't care whether the 'circumstances' were perfect for raising a baby. I would have a termination. If I was ever told no, I would go somewhere that WOULD do it.
It's my body. No one has the right to force me to go through a pregnancy I didn't want. Yes, the man has a right to an opinion, but should NEVER be allowed to stop a termination if the woman wants one or make a woman terminate who didn't want to.
I don't care if it's 50% his genes. It's 50% his fault. Avoid the whole scenario by making sure you use protection (short of accidents obviously).
I despair of anyone who doesn't want a baby that would flippantly use abortion as contraception. They're idiots imo, but nevertheless, the choice to terminate must always be there.
I'm 36, never been pregnant. No plans to go through it either. It IS a lifestyle choice no matter how you batter and fry it.
Her birth mother was 15. She was advised by many, I learned, to have an abortion. When I look at my beautiful little girl, and I have posted her photo on here many times, this tears my heart in two.
This is not a argument against abortion. Some adopted children turn out not so good......
magnum if you are worried about this happening to you in the future, may I suggest that you either dont sleep with anything that says yes and wear a condom if you do. Dont have a baby til you both want and plan it. My daughter is about 6 months younger than you and my latest "accidental" pregnancy has put her off for ever. Maybe that is the best form of contraception, actually showing these wee girlies that having a baby is not all fun
DanAbnormal
29-03-09, 09:59 AM
In other words in stead of harping on about something you have no experience about come and chat to someone who has
So, are you saying that unless you have experience of this (which as a bloke maybe quite hard) we do not have a worthy opinion?
Or did you just want us to know that you have had experience of this?
I have no experience in politics either but I have an opinion. ;) Does that make it any less valid?
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