View Full Version : Bike Not Starting
21QUEST
01-04-09, 09:15 AM
Hi Guys, hoping someone might have come across/had a similar problem. I had a 'mare of a day yesterday with the bike.
Bike starting ok initially. I had to stop to adjust mirrors and then it wouldn't start. Seemed like battery didn't have enough juice.
Tried 'bumping' it but no joy. Then got some jump leads and even trying off a car, it still wouldn't start. Starter was turning over engine but just didn't seem to want to fire up. Of course, plugs now probably a bit wet.
Eventually it started with the handlebars turned to the left hmmmm. Tried that a few times and it seemed sure enough, turning bars to left appeared to be making a connection(symptoms of intermittent connection..break in wire or connector blocks).
Anyhoos let it run a while , switched it off and wouldn't start. Funny thing(well not funny lol), it now wouldn't start even with trying to jump from another vehicle. No amount of wriggling bars/wires would make it start. Engine kicking over but just not starting. Looked like perhaps no sparks and an extremely wet plug...as you could smell the petrol.
Now the most surprising thing was, even before it got to the point where one could asumme the plugs were now fouled, it wouldn't start from a direct connection to the starter motor :???:
At the moment, I've just had a look at the wiring diagrams and hoping it's the wire shared by both coils.....since it wouldn't even start with a direct connection to starter motor even though engine was turning over quite strongly.
In any case , got a new CDI unit, coils/HT leads and plusg to go in , if need be. I frigging hate electrical sh*t ](*,)
Okay folks, you ahve the evidence and wotnot to help you come up with a solution.... :p ;) .
Cheers
Ben
rictus01
01-04-09, 09:20 AM
have you checked the main engine earth Ben ?
jimmy__riddle
01-04-09, 09:21 AM
http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=128819&highlight=start+clutch
if you think moving the bars made a difference then it's more than likely one of the connectors at each handlebar (switch cluster for on/off on the right, clutch safety switch under the left) or one of the connectors behind the headstock under the airbox.
21QUEST
01-04-09, 09:35 AM
have you checked the main engine earth Ben ?
Mark, I haven't but shall do that too now.
Ben
dizzyblonde
01-04-09, 09:37 AM
check the red wire, in the connector block on the left of the loom under the fairing(I'm assuming you still got faired) gives it a wiggle and see if it is loose or green!
A long shot but it is a live( I think), to starter relay,battery, main fuse, clocks, reg rec...loads of stuff!
21QUEST
01-04-09, 09:38 AM
if you think moving the bars made a difference then it's more than likely one of the connectors at each handlebar (switch cluster for on/off on the right, clutch safety switch under the left) or one of the connectors behind the headstock under the airbox.
Flymo, if it's connectors, that'd be so brilliant. I'm already having nightmares, thinking about trying to locate a break in a wire. I really hate electrics arghhh.
Guys, any thoughts on why it wouldn't start with a direct connection to starter motor?
Ben
21QUEST
01-04-09, 09:42 AM
Oops...
Dizzy, it's a 'naked' Hun....proper bike like :p ;)
Do you know what the connector block is for and/or colour. Might be same for naked.
*goes off to look at wiring digram*
Ben
Guys, any thoughts on why it wouldn't start with a direct connection to starter motor?
Because powering the starter only does just that, if you have a loose connection that effectively means the ignition circuit is not powered (clutch switch/kill switch etc) then you'll spin the engine but get no spark.
dizzyblonde
01-04-09, 09:48 AM
Oops...
Dizzy, it's a 'naked' Hun....proper bike like :p ;)
Do you know what the connector block is for and/or colour. Might be same for naked.
*goes off to look at wiring digram*
Ben
ahhh don't know on a nakid, but on mine its big white thing at the end of the loom over the headlights, lots of wires in it.
Sorry I'm probably not helping:(
21QUEST
01-04-09, 09:58 AM
Because powering the starter only does just that, if you have a loose connection that effectively means the ignition circuit is not powered (clutch switch/kill switch etc) then you'll spin the engine but get no spark.
hah, feel a right dafty now hehe..... obvious when you think about it huh :smt003 Cheers : ) .
Dizzy, you are helping :) .
Okay guys thanks for all the suggestion so far. I'm going to go out and start stripping. I shall be keepign an eye on thread so please keep them coming :D
Ben
Nicky S
01-04-09, 09:59 AM
Because powering the starter only does just that, if you have a loose connection that effectively means the ignition circuit is not powered (clutch switch/kill switch etc) then you'll spin the engine but get no spark.
flymo is right... but id say check everthing on the handle bars before you go riping your bike apart to find a broken wire
flymo is right... but id say check everthing on the handle bars before you go riping your bike apart to find a broken wire
+1
Just scrap it Ben and use the thou instead!!!!;) Anyhoo i thought you was buying a scooter for work again?? cause you had gone all mamby pamby :smt016:smt016:smt016
21QUEST
02-04-09, 07:28 PM
Just scrap it Ben and use the thou instead!!!!;) Anyhoo i thought you was buying a scooter for work again?? cause you had gone all mamby pamby :smt016:smt016:smt016
Gone all mamby pamby? :o :rolleyes: hehe
Oh, yeah, still getting a Scooter. On the 650, it's now a bit too easy taking the scalps of the Sunday/fair weather warriors. Soooo I'm looking to give them more of a 'head start' and i reckon, a Scoot would be perfect ;)
So you gonna be of any more help? :confused: :smt016
Ben
21QUEST
02-04-09, 07:36 PM
Ellooo guys.
Still no joy. Checked all the main connecting blocks ie those in the headlight bowl, one underneath the tank and the two switch gears.
Tried different switch gears and CDI too. I left the best till last (yup forgot about 'simple stuff first')...that'd be the checking for a spark from the plugs then. No spark from either.
Any more thoughts?
Ben
Because powering the starter only does just that, if you have a loose connection that effectively means the ignition circuit is not powered (clutch switch/kill switch etc) then you'll spin the engine but get no spark.
yes and no. if you have power to starter relay it means there is power coming in and out of kill switch. when motor is turning and everything works but you have no spark than either you got no signal to cdi (resistor in ignition, pulse generator) or one of those wires has bad connection somewhere.
yes and no. if you have power to starter relay it means there is power coming in and out of kill switch. when motor is turning and everything works but you have no spark than either you got no signal to cdi (resistor in ignition, pulse generator) or one of those wires has bad connection somewhere.
I dont think that was the case though, maybe I misunderstood the post but I thought 21 had powered the starter by means of jump leads to the starter motor terminals. If thats the case it'll do nothing except spin the motor.
21QUEST
02-04-09, 09:34 PM
Flymo, it' a 99 Naked 650
And yup, you are correct...I did also power the starter motor straight from battery.
Ben
Flymo, it' a 99 Naked 650
And yup, you are correct...I did also power the starter motor straight from battery.
Ben
Ben I dont have a workshop manual for that model but in the one I have for my K3 there is a pretty useful section that covers step by step troubleshooting of the ignition systems etc. If you can get one its worth stepping through that.
It covers testing various components to elliminate them from the problem. Obvious ones to check are kill switch, clutch switch, side stand switch, ignition switch (key) and all associated connectors, all fuses. It could also be coils and/or coil connectors, pickup coil fault (crankshaft position sensor to use its posh name), ECU fault, dodgy earth connection (check main engine earth). Battery connections, battery charge.
I dont think that was the case though, maybe I misunderstood the post but I thought 21 had powered the starter by means of jump leads to the starter motor terminals. If thats the case it'll do nothing except spin the motor.
you can power starter from external source and as long key is turned on and rest of bike powered it will start. you do need to ground external source to bike.
his starter is turning meaning there is power going from kill switch to starter relay. which also means he has power to fuse box, ignition lock....etc.question is does other power wire from kill switch work (orange/white). this wire feeds coils and cdi with 12v. if he has power there than only thing left is signal that tells CDI to fire coils. either pulse generator or resistor in ignition. or one of this wires having bad contact.
all other stuff like clutch switch, stand switch, broken power wire.... would not let starter work in first place.
I may be missing something that is not popping in my head right now.
you can power starter from external source and as long key is turned on and rest of bike powered it will start. you do need to ground external source to bike.
his starter is turning meaning there is power going from kill switch to starter relay. which also means he has power to fuse box, ignition lock....etc.question is does other power wire from kill switch work (orange/white). this wire feeds coils and cdi with 12v. if he has power there than only thing left is signal that tells CDI to fire coils. either pulse generator or resistor in ignition. or one of this wires having bad contact.
all other stuff like clutch switch, stand switch, broken power wire.... would not let starter work in first place.
I may be missing something that is not popping in my head right now.
I think you're missing this, if you jump lead straight to earth and the positive terminal on the starter motor from another battery, the starter will spin up the engine. this doesnt require any of the bike electrics to be working at all.
I think you're missing this, if you jump lead straight to earth and the positive terminal on the starter motor from another battery, the starter will spin up the engine. this doesnt require any of the bike electrics to be working at all.
I am not missing that, I know that. I had my starter not wired to bike at all. I was starting my bike with external battery.
still with key on bike will start.
he did have starter turning with external power, just bike was not starting.
he is missing spark.
I am not missing that, I know that. I had my starter not wired to bike at all. I was starting my bike with external battery.
still with key on bike will start.
he did have starter turning with external power, just bike was not starting.
he is missing spark.
I think we are saying the same thing really. The problem is that the ignition circuit has a fault and therefor there is no spark. I thought you were stating that as a result of the starter motor spinning then this is somehow proving certain parts of the ignition circuit are ok, and I dont think thats the case.
For whatever reason that ignition circuit is not functioning properly due to one of the reasons I listed earlier, and thats why we get no spark. The problem 21 has is that he has to find which part of the ignition circuit is faulty.
yes, we are saying same thing as far starter goes.
here is deal. he has power coming to ignition lock which means rest of bike is powered up to that point, which is fuse box (fuses all good?) and regulator. than he turns key and he is getting power to kill switch. we know kill switch is getting power from ignition lock and sending power out to starter relay. next thing is to check if kill switch is powering cdi and coils, which is orange/white wire. if not you start tracing that wire back to kill switch to find loose connection. if there is power on orange/white than signal is only thing left to not fire coils. what powers second wire on coils? cdi using input from pulse generator. only thing that interrupts cdi from sending that signal to coil is resistor inside ignition lock. without resistor everything on bike works, starter spins but bike never fires. this are two leads that I would look in to.
making sure power from kill switch is reaching coils and cdi box and if yes than look at ignition lock and pulse generator wires for bad connections.
the way I understand he has power everywhere except spark is missing on spark plugs.
21QUEST
02-04-09, 10:26 PM
Thanks Flymo and Zadar :) . I feel confident(famous last words haha) that we are going to find the fault tomorrow.
We don't want to get the sledge hammer out , do we .... :smt021 :eek: :-D
Ben
21QUEST
02-04-09, 10:28 PM
the way I understand he has power everywhere except spark is missing on spark plugs.
Correctumundo
Ben
Ben, as promised (post pizza & beer - more beer than pizza):
Dodgy plugs? Take the HT lead off, new plug on, spark against the frame? (in case you're like Baldyman, keep the old plugs in the engine when you do this, please!!)
Loose/broken connection somewhere in the ignition circuit (as it was intermittent before?) ?
Faulty HT lead/plug cap? Faulty ignition switch or kill switch (continuity checks according to diagram)? Faulty clutch switch? Faulty pulse generator (continuity to earth = fault, 140-230 ohms as per diagram, 3V min peak)? Faulty HT coils (3.5 to 5.5 ohms primary winding, 20-31k ohms (with plug cap) secondary, 150V peak, at 20degC - if peak is wrong but resistance is OK, fault is elsewhere) ? ICU fault (swap it to test)?
HTH. :)
21QUEST
03-04-09, 04:22 PM
I believe I've found the fault :)
Gracias to everyone who has responded(yeah, even you Billy :-P).
To Flymo and Zadar, special appreciation guys.... :smt023
Ben
21QUEST
03-04-09, 04:25 PM
Oh, I've still got find exactly where the break is but I believe it should be too far down the loom.
Ben
I believe I've found the fault :)
Gracias to everyone who has responded(yeah, even you Billy :-P).
To Flymo and Zadar, special appreciation guys.... :smt023
Ben
your welcome mate!! I bet it put a smile on your face;)
I believe I've found the fault :)
Gracias to everyone who has responded(yeah, even you Billy :-P).
To Flymo and Zadar, special appreciation guys.... :smt023
Ben
Anytime. What did you find?
21QUEST
03-04-09, 10:55 PM
Anytime. What did you find?
Turned out it was the Orange/Red* wire(with the resistor) that goes to ignition.
Power was getting to CDI and Plug Coil but before trying a different Ignition, it occurred to me , that I should check the continuity...from front section of main loom to the back(CDI). Bingo!!!. :)
Ideally, I need a new loom really, as the wire(and prolly others too) isn't in that good a shape. I've sort of bodged it for now and will hopefully source a new loom(gambling it'd be better) or might try and get someone to make me one.
It's been frustrating , cost me time and money but I leant stuff...so not all bad suppose lol.
*Edit:
Ben
Dave20046
15-04-09, 03:25 PM
where's the main engine earth?
Glad you got it sorted ben - now come and fix mine :P
back of engine right in front of swingarm pivot.
Dave20046
15-04-09, 07:28 PM
back of engine right in front of swingarm pivot.
Cheers zadar :smt023
Any other bad earth hotspots to check?
there are bunch of them inside wire harness but all end there on engine, actually battery is direct to engine and rest are on connector attached to that big ground wire right next to battery.
21QUEST
16-04-09, 07:27 AM
where's the main engine earth?
Glad you got it sorted ben - now come and fix mine :P
Or so we thought :( :lol:
Looks like like it's not fully sorted. My solution was to run a wire directly from the CDI end to the ignition end. I think the corroded wire I found was just the tip of the iceberg unfortunately....
Bike cut out yesterday again. Could bump start it but wouldn't run with headlight on. Everytime I switched the headlight on, it would cut out. made for an interesting ride.
Checking with a Voltmetre comfirm the Voltage stable, wiithout headlight on but flicking the switch on, made it start dropping....VERY FAST.
Errr summin aint right me thinks hehe. I should be doing a loom swap this morning. It's one off an S but that would have to do for the moment....gets bike working properly(I hope) atleast.
Dave, what year is your bike ?
Ben
plowsie
16-04-09, 07:48 AM
Headlights cutting bike out, happened to me when my regulator was fecked...
21QUEST
16-04-09, 08:00 AM
Plowsie, that was what I thought at first but I've already swapped the Rectifier, after he initial problem...which we thought fixed.
Unless the wiring issue is somehow(dunno how as I'm shoite with electrics : ) ) wrecking the Rectifier.
All this started with the break in wire. The bike had been perfect till the starting issue, whiich turned out a broken wire.
It's all a bit confusing but I reckon, something is not right(understatement huh :- D) with loom. The corroded wire was really bad....so the rest must be in a similar state of near crumbleness(is that a word lol) at the very least
Ben
plowsie
16-04-09, 08:08 AM
Plowsie, that was what I thought at first but I've already swapped the Rectifier, after he initial problem...which we thought fixed.
Unless the wiring issue is somehow(dunno how as I'm shoite with electrics : ) ) wrecking the Rectifier.
All this started with the break in wire. The bike had been perfect till the starting issue, whiich turned out a broken wire.
It's all a bit confusing but I reckon, something is not right(understatement huh :- D) with loom. The corroded wire was really bad....so the rest must be in a similar state of near crumbleness(is that a word lol) at the very least
Ben
Hmm, yeah i know what you mean, but remember when I bought Billy's bike? I had a reg/rec off you, then had to buy another aswell with new battery.
I know this sounds stupid but did you disconnect the battery when putting new reg/rec in? Its apparently a recommendation, I never did it with the first one I put in, but the second I did.
Have you had a voltmeter on it to rule it out?
I'm carp with electrickery too.
21QUEST
16-04-09, 08:10 AM
That said, perhaps I'm just being really unlucky with the rectifiers.
Soooo I've just had a look and I've got another Rectifier :rolleyes: I could try . I'd need ome help with wiring it, as it's from another bike
EDIT: Yup checked with Voltmeter after sorting out initial problem and reading wasn't as it should be. The second one was charging at 13.7 so 'happy days' , I thought.
Ben
plowsie
16-04-09, 08:12 AM
That said, perhaps I'm just being really unlucky with the rectifiers.
Soooo I've just had a look and I've got another Rectifier :rolleyes: I could try . I'd need ome help with wiring it, as it's from another bike
Ben
CBR one is seen as an upgrade.
As I always say when talking about reg/recs, I remember back to a convo with Spannerman in his garage...
CBR r/r work **** on CBR's
SV r/r work **** on SV's
However CBR r/r work well on SV's, and SV r/r work well on CBR's lol.
plowsie
16-04-09, 08:13 AM
That said, perhaps I'm just being really unlucky with the rectifiers.
Soooo I've just had a look and I've got another Rectifier :rolleyes: I could try . I'd need ome help with wiring it, as it's from another bike
EDIT: Yup checked with Voltmeter after sorting out initial problem and reading wasn't as it should be. The second one was charging at 13.7 so 'happy days' , I thought.
Ben
As you say happy days, don't think it can be the r/r then.
Dave20046
16-04-09, 11:17 AM
Or so we thought :( :lol:
Looks like like it's not fully sorted. My solution was to run a wire directly from the CDI end to the ignition end. I think the corroded wire I found was just the tip of the iceberg unfortunately....
Bike cut out yesterday again. Could bump start it but wouldn't run with headlight on. Everytime I switched the headlight on, it would cut out. made for an interesting ride.
Checking with a Voltmetre comfirm the Voltage stable, wiithout headlight on but flicking the switch on, made it start dropping....VERY FAST.
Errr summin aint right me thinks hehe. I should be doing a loom swap this morning. It's one off an S but that would have to do for the moment....gets bike working properly(I hope) atleast.
Dave, what year is your bike ?
Ben
1999 and yellow :smt012
I hate motorbikes.
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