View Full Version : Do you ride in London?
This is just a little message to anyone that commutes by bike to London, or finds themselves in London on their bike regularly.
Of course, you may not be part of the Soho Massive section on this site, so I wanted to take a moment to bring your attention to tonight's no-to-bike-parking-fees gathering.
Perhaps Bike parking charges may not affect you, but these bold steps by Westminster could soon put a firm end to a privaledge exercised by motorcyclists all over Britain.
Please, if you're free tonight, come and attend our cause. Details can be found at http://www.notobikeparkingfees.com/.
Motorcyclists freedoms are slowly being eroded in the UK. This became scarily apparent to me on a recent trip to France with some of the .Orgers. If France can get it right, then why can't we?
PsychoCannon
11-05-09, 11:02 AM
Madness!! I'll see if I can make it to any of these locations!
Almost as barmy as the idea of charging bikes congestion charge!
I do and I got a parking ticket today. Fuggin ell.
Ceri JC
11-05-09, 02:32 PM
I ride in London reasonably regularly, but won't be around tonight, sorry.
Im still in 2 minds about this whole bike parking/paying scenario. However, if i was free, i would be there.
rictus01
11-05-09, 03:05 PM
Im still in 2 minds about this whole bike parking/paying scenario. However, if i was free, i would be there.
and that's just what westminster council is hoping for, from their perspective, as long as it results in inaction on your part, by default you must be supporting them :smt102
Cheers Mark.
Jamiebridges123
11-05-09, 03:21 PM
Went to the Ace Cafe yesterday had to ride through London.. bloody hell was the single most scary thing I've ever done.....
SoulKiss
11-05-09, 03:24 PM
Went to the Ace Cafe yesterday had to ride through London.. bloody hell was the single most scary thing I've ever done.....
Do it every day - usually 2 up - its nothing :)
joshmac
11-05-09, 04:05 PM
Do it every day - usually 2 up - its nothing :)
It is for the first time. That's why I always think it's hard to understand some of the Soho Mofos' stories for people who haven't ridden in central london
Went to the Ace Cafe yesterday had to ride through London.. bloody hell was the single most scary thing I've ever done.....
Just do what I do - keep your eyes closed.
I'm commuting in Central London this week, yesterday was the first day, I was a wreck when I got here!!! Second day today and things didn't seem quite so bad, Blackwall Tunnel still mental though, saw an R6 get tagged by some tw*t.
Can't wait to get my bike back.
and that's just what westminster council is hoping for, from their perspective, as long as it results in inaction on your part, by default you must be supporting them :smt102
Cheers Mark.Lets face it we do get away with the £8 a day congestion charge, so it could be a lot worse in all honesty and a Pound a day isnt a huge amount especially when if you park a car in central london, you are looking at anything from £1 an hour/20 mins, so its good value, and just evolution.
rictus01
12-05-09, 08:09 AM
Lets face it we do get away with the £8 a day congestion charge, so it could be a lot worse in all honesty and a Pound a day isnt a huge amount especially when if you park a car in central london, you are looking at anything from £1 an hour/20 mins, so its good value, and just evolution.
Once again, play right into there hands, you sure you're not on their christmas card list Ian ?
Cheers Mark.
SoulKiss
12-05-09, 08:16 AM
Lets face it we do get away with the £8 a day congestion charge, so it could be a lot worse in all honesty and a Pound a day isnt a huge amount especially when if you park a car in central london, you are looking at anything from £1 an hour/20 mins, so its good value, and just evolution.
Are you saying that you also agree with the Kengestion Charge?
The Public Transport system couldnt cope if even just the bikers that need to park in Westminster started taking the Tube and Buses.
Ceri JC
12-05-09, 08:33 AM
Once again, play right into there hands, you sure you're not on their christmas card list Ian ?
Cheers Mark.
+1. You can guarantee that the low "£1 introductory special offer" they use to get people to think, "It's not worth bothering getting worked up about" won't last long. If we let this through, watch as it outstrips inflation several times over, over the next decade.
I just think that we as bikers, or whatever we are, moan about all manner of things, yet we get off pretty lightly by all accounts. So be it.
I just think that we as bikers, or whatever we are, moan about all manner of things, yet we get off pretty lightly by all accounts. So be it.
But its not about what's right and what's wrong - its about how much of a stink you can kick up. The bikers don't want the charge so therefore they should kick off about it. Make a stand or get walked all over - it boils down to a simple power struggle. Just cos all the other road users have bent over, doesn't mean the bikers should too.
I dont disagree witth protesting, just the fact that we think that we should be able to park for free. Why do we think as a community that we should get special privalages? I worked in the docklands for a while and its £2 a day to park over there and has been since i can remember.
We dont pay £8 a day. We pay reduced road tax. A bike is proabably as efficent as most eco boxs, most of use break traffic laws on a daily basis, yet we still want our cake and eat it too. I just think its a lot of fuss over nothing.
£1 a day, £5 a week, £25 a month, thats £300 a year!!!!
+ the 5-10mins wasted trying to pay via phone with a credit card for a parking space without security, hows that good value!
:confused:
We dont pay £8 a day. We pay reduced road tax. A bike is proabably as efficent as most eco boxs, most of use break traffic laws on a daily basis, yet we still want our cake and eat it too. I just think its a lot of fuss over nothing.
I agree with your point, but many of us ride bikes simply because of those advantages. We like it the way it is, and the "powers that be" are trying to change it. Hence there's conflict. What's fair or right doesn't really apply - it basically boils down to who can force the issue.
Anyway not being a Londoner (yet ;)) i'll butt out of this thread.
SoulKiss
12-05-09, 09:33 AM
I agree with your point, but many of us ride bikes simply because of those advantages. We like it the way it is, and the "powers that be" are trying to change it. Hence there's conflict. What's fair or right doesn't really apply - it basically boils down to who can force the issue.
Anyway not being a Londoner (yet ;)) i'll butt out of this thread.
Well if Westminster get away with this, you will see it appear in Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow etc.
Viney, I think you have been cycling too long................ :p
£1 a day, £5 a week, £25 a month, thats £300 a year!!!!
+ the 5-10mins wasted trying to pay via phone with a credit card for a parking space without security, hows that good value!
:confused:Ah, thats a diferent story. I agree with Billys comments about the system, and that could be improved immensley. £300 a year is still darn site cheapert than a season ticket
There's no argument that says that we should pay for parking, just because everyone else does. That kind of attitude is qutie frankly what's driving this country down - the willingness to see someone else get screwed just because you think you're getting screwed yourself.
The £1.50/day charge isn't a huge amount to pay, and if you can afford to see £150 disappear, then the charge is reduced to just 60p/day (based on 252 working days a year).
Sure, I'm lucky enough to be able to afford it, but:
Many people can't
Why should I have to?
The point is that I'm being asked to pay for something that was previously free. In paying for it, I'm deriving no extra value or service, despite the hollow promises. I find it just as hard to find a parking space as I did before, and it's certainly no more secure.
I'm protesting because I don't think we've been listened to at all. I think that Westminster Council have thrown their weight at an easy target to make extra millions from charges and penalties. Nothing seems to have been given back, and this comes down to feudal rule in its modern form.
So, apart from revenue generation, what purpose does this charge serve? None that I can see, it is simply to fill the Council's already healthy coffers.
We're a very reasonable bunch in London. We generally avoid parking on pavements or in nooks and crannies that would otherwise be fair game if we lived in a civilised country.
We don't do this, because the Army of Parking Attendants are well organised and will ticket on sight. So we've already conceded to a status quo, and that's where the line is... in return we had free parking pays. Westminster just crossed that line by taking them away.
£300 a year is still darn site cheapert than a season ticket
That’s on top of cost of bike, insurance, road tax, mot, petrol, maintenance, riding kit! (and cups of tea to keep warm!)
for many, bikes are the cheapest form of transport, a charge of £300 a year for parking is totally out of proportion.
There's no argument that says that we should pay for parking, just because everyone else does. That kind of attitude is qutie frankly what's driving this country down - the willingness to see someone else get screwed just because you think you're getting screwed yourself.
The £1.50/day charge isn't a huge amount to pay, and if you can afford to see £150 disappear, then the charge is reduced to just 60p/day (based on 252 working days a year).
Sure, I'm lucky enough to be able to afford it, but:
Many people can't
Why should I have to?
The point is that I'm being asked to pay for something that was previously free. In paying for it, I'm deriving no extra value or service, despite the hollow promises. I find it just as hard to find a parking space as I did before, and it's certainly no more secure.
I'm protesting because I don't think we've been listened to at all. I think that Westminster Council have thrown their weight at an easy target to make extra millions from charges and penalties. Nothing seems to have been given back, and this comes down to feudal rule in its modern form.
So, apart from revenue generation, what purpose does this charge serve? None that I can see, it is simply to fill the Council's already healthy coffers.
We're a very reasonable bunch in London. We generally avoid parking on pavements or in nooks and crannies that would otherwise be fair game if we lived in a civilised country.
We don't do this, because the Army of Parking Attendants are well organised and will ticket on sight. So we've already conceded to a status quo, and that's where the line is... in return we had free parking pays. Westminster just crossed that line by taking them away.But bill, i understand everything you are saying, but return you back to my previous statement. Why should we get parking for free when all other transport pays? I know that we/you will not get anything else for the extra cost. Its much the same for parking permits to park outside of your house etc but there wasnt a huge protest over that!!
That’s on top of cost of bike, insurance, road tax, mot, petrol, maintenance, riding kit! (and cups of tea to keep warm!)
for many, bikes are the cheapest form of transport, a charge of £300 a year for parking is totally out of proportion. To me not a sound argument. You choose to buy a bike and run it and you are aware of the costs when you such things, and your commute into london will cost you £300 a year, again a fair price, considering we could be paying over £2k a year in congestion charge on top. With the costs of most things, i really do think that (proper) bikes are not as cheap as people like to think. Even with my insurance costing what it does, it save about £15 a month maximum taking into account servicing, tyres etc etc compared to Train.
SoulKiss
12-05-09, 10:18 AM
Its much the same for parking permits to park outside of your house etc but there wasnt a huge protest over that!!
If there had been, then maybe there wouldn't be such a charge.
Why should anyone roll-over and accept a change in the law/conditions that they do not agree with?
When will you stand up for it? When they ban Motorbikes within the M25?
But bill, i understand everything you are saying, but return you back to my previous statement. Why should we get parking for free when all other transport pays? I know that we/you will not get anything else for the extra cost. Its much the same for parking permits to park outside of your house etc but there wasnt a huge protest over that!!
I don't agree with paying for parking permits either... there's another hidden tax that suddenly became fashionable for Councils to implement.
If everything was fair, sure, we'd all pay... we'd all earn the same money, ride/drive the same vehicles, and big brother would screen a variety of programs every day to keep us entertained.
Fortunately we don't live in that kind of world... charging is a very crude device for curtailing usage, and inevitably means that the less well off are penalised.
I feel bikes should be promoted, sure a big sports bike is far from ideal and green to be commuting on, but scooters and smaller bikes make a lot of sense - congestion is eased, parking should be easy, and people can move about freely and conduct their personal business. Why would we want to put any obstacle infront of that?
Spiderman
12-05-09, 10:42 AM
But bill, i understand everything you are saying, but return you back to my previous statement. Why should we get parking for free when all other transport pays? I know that we/you will not get anything else for the extra cost. Its much the same for parking permits to park outside of your house etc but there wasnt a huge protest over that!!
Interesting arguments you raise so far Ian. But from my experience any area that has been offered/forced to accept a 'new' residents parking scheme that wasn't there before has always done so under protest and under the mistaken belief that it will "stop those who park here to use the train/bus/tube/shopping centre" but are not residents.
Dont forget 5 well parked bikes take up the space of only 1 parked car.
And as Billy says in most other sensible and civilised countries bikes park almost anywhere they want for free, on pavements included.
rictus01
12-05-09, 11:08 AM
Im still in 2 minds about this whole bike parking/paying scenario. However, if i was free, i would be there.
But by your own admission, you agree with them, so why would you be there in any case (if you were free of course)?
Lets face it we do get away with the £8 a day congestion charge, so it could be a lot worse in all honesty and a Pound a day isnt a huge amount especially when if you park a car in central london, you are looking at anything from £1 an hour/20 mins, so its good value, and just evolution.
the word here is "congestion", generally accepted as part of the solution to the problem people were encouraged to take to two wheels and get out of their cars, every other* council encouraged migration from cars and created bike parking by generally converting a few car bays to many bike spaces, following guidelines from the mayors office, Westminster said they'd provide even more bays and install security for a small charge, whilst quick to implement the charge they seem to have forgotten why they "said" it was to be introduced, Even the money hunger Westminster council haven't quoted the congestion charge as a justification for their actions as this would go directly against the mayors offices policy on congestion busting, so we aren't "getting away with £8 a day" as you put it, because we aren't causing the problem it was designed to address.
But bill, i understand everything you are saying, but return you back to my previous statement. Why should we get parking for free when all other transport pays?
As said above, because we are doing already what they want car drivers to do which would greatly reduce congestion if they did
I know that we/you will not get anything else for the extra cost.
Or even what they said would be provided for that cost, remember they never said it was in place of a congestion charge, it was made plain it was for more bays and security in them, that hasn't happened, those that parked in Westminster whilst not over happy; would no doubt be more content if there was more bays available and they did have the promised security for their daily charge.
Its much the same for parking permits to park outside of your house etc but there wasnt a huge protest over that!!
Funny they tried that around my local roads and there was a protest and it didn't happen, like wise the speed hump issue, rather than solid ones we campaigned for the three smaller ones instead, if you don't protest you get what you're given :smt102
To me not a sound argument. You choose to buy a bike and run it and you are aware of the costs when you such things, and your commute into london will cost you £300 a year, again a fair price, considering we could be paying over £2k a year in congestion charge on top.
Point addressed above about congestion charge.
Westminster saw a chance to make a few bob whilst supporting the London congestion plan, now if they had ended up as the best council, with the most bays and the promised security, then they "might" have had a valid point, but they didn't, they put in a couple of trials of a bar here and there and that's about it, as rightly pointed out other councils will look to see if they "get away with it" and if so it'll be introduced; not as a benefit to bikers (although that's I'm sure how it will be billed), but as a form of income generation.
* even Westminster at the time
Interesting arguments you raise so far Ian. But from my experience any area that has been offered/forced to accept a 'new' residents parking scheme that wasn't there before has always done so under protest and under the mistaken belief that it will "stop those who park here to use the train/bus/tube/shopping centre" but are not residents.Ok maybe so, as i have never been involved as its not come to a street near me, although i wish it would. I live near a station and sometimes its a nightmare!
Dont forget 5 well parked bikes take up the space of only 1 parked car.I know, but i know they have the posibility to carry 10 passengers but mostly dont, but a car can carry 5 people and emit less polloution than the 5 bikes.
And as Billy says in most other sensible and civilised countries bikes park almost anywhere they want for free, on pavements included.Again true, but no one still has answered the question. Why do we think we should get parking for free? Why do we think its our non govenment given right?
SoulKiss
12-05-09, 11:13 AM
Why do we think its our non govenment given right?
Why is it their right to take it away?
Spiderman
12-05-09, 11:28 AM
Ok maybe so, as i have never been involved as its not come to a street near me, although i wish it would. I live near a station and sometimes its a nightmare!
Trust me, it'll solve nothing and yhou'll wish it never happened if it gets introduced. Its just another stealth tax with a false promise dangled at the end to entice you.
I know, but i know they have the posibility to carry 10 passengers but mostly dont, but a car can carry 5 people and emit less polloution than the 5 bikes. Very good points. Maybe Govts should introduce more car/bike sharing schemes but thats not what we are discussign here i guess.
And i'm so with you on the 'green-ness' of bikes. For some reason bikes have the mistaken belief of being greener than cars which is not the case imho.
Again true, but no one still has answered the question. Why do we think we should get parking for free? Why do we think its our non govenment given right?
Simple answrer - we always have done... tlll now.
And ALL other london boroughs currently dont charge for bikes to park. Some have bikes only residents schmes available but not compulsory.
So if we just roll over and let it happen in Westminster i'm sure all other boroughs will see us as easy tragets and impose the same charge.
Dont forget Ian, parking regulations were originally brought in to keep traffic free flowing and fines were given to vehicles parked in places that disrupted this flow. Slowly over the years the local councils moved those goalposts and now parking is simply a revenue generation game and has nothign to do with allowing traffic to flow or provide parking for those who need it.
Because they are a public body, there to service the public.
They are not a commercial enterprise forced to make a profit.
We fund them through tax, why are we being taxed again for no change in service. If they gave even more spaces with better security I can understand it, but they haven't. Once its in we can't stop it, it will increase every year. We are taking up one car parking space.
PTWs are promoted in London as an aid to congestion, why are they making money out of it? Whats next? Charging for parking your bicycle? Using their pavement for walking? Is that your right?
What if you live outside London but use a Westminster pavement for walking on? Maybe a 10p charge? After all, you're not helping them by paying tax....
For me it's simple, it's £300 I didn't have to budget for last year, and now I would. And in return I've been insulted, and ignored.
I have no right not to be charged. The local council has the right to up my council tax by 10% each year, to collect the bins once a month, and to close all the dumps. They can also stop me parking outside my house, speed-bump every road, and tarmac over the local parks. These things are all within their rights.
But that's not to say I wouldn't protest if they were to do these things. Just because I don't have a legal right to have my bins collected once a week, doesn't mean an increase in price, and drop in service is something I would happily accept as "tolerable".
You may, or may not remember that Crystal Palace was due to have a small part of the park flattened to make room for an enormous cinema and retail centre about 12 years ago. The local businesses and residents put on a massive protest and in the end the plan was abolished. That act saved a huge amount of added congestion and stopped a lot of local small businesses going under.
Sometimes you just have to kick up a fuss, it's important.
Just my 2p,
Jambo
So the simple and only argument is...We havent paid it until now! Its a bot like saying when a NSL road is reduced to 50 from 60 saying "it used to be 60, so why should i be fined for doing 60"
I can see eveyones points in this, and agree with the priciple of everyone protesting over something thats being introduced, but the fact remains that no one can come up with a formidable reason as to why motorbikes should not pay to park other than "we havent until now" and i think thats why motorcyclists have gone unherd and ignored.
As for the comment mark about me agreeing with them, its more of a case of acceptance than agreement. I do a lot of things each day/week/year that i do, i may not like them, but its a way/fact of life that they have to be done and paying for bike parking would be another one.
Biker Biggles
12-05-09, 02:39 PM
Read Rictus points again.They encouraged people to swop from cars to bikes to reduce congestion.Having done that they now want to penalise those they encouraged to swop.That in itself is a despicable act of cynical hypocrisy and typical of the political classes in this country.
Viney, I think people have made some good points against it. Either it's for revenue generation, or it's to stop people riding and parking. I can't see either one is in anyone but Westminster Council's interests.
If you're asking people to claim we take up zero road space when we park then clearly it's not an argument we can make. And it's a point I do appreciate.
I'd say the argument is about the scheme as it stands with it's unreliable technology, the way in which it's been introduced, the efforts made to ensure objections are over-ridden and ignored rather than considered, and a knowledge that none of the promised benefits have materialised, while revenue has been well in excess of projected figures. And frankly, people don't like it when someone tries to offer them a raw deal.
Will we ultimately end up paying to park a bike everywhere? Maybe. But here's where to protest if we don't want to, and unlike a car we can't just pop a pound in a machine and get a ticket out. Even stopping for 5 minutes takes twice that in texting, calling, using their codes with your credit card, registering, and being fined anyway.
And if you move to a bay down the road it'll be the same faff all over again if you've just ended up in another borough.
Jambo
SoulKiss
12-05-09, 02:45 PM
So the simple and only argument is...We havent paid it until now! Its a bot like saying when a NSL road is reduced to 50 from 60 saying "it used to be 60, so why should i be fined for doing 60"
No, its not like that at all. Its more like "they want to drop the speed from 60 to 50, lets complain about it" The campaign is not condoning or suggesting people break the law/not pay for parking
I can see eveyones points in this, and agree with the priciple of everyone protesting over something thats being introduced, but the fact remains that no one can come up with a formidable reason as to why motorbikes should not pay to park other than "we havent until now" and i think thats why motorcyclists have gone unherd and ignored.
Isn't the addition of another stealth-tax reason enough?
As for the comment mark about me agreeing with them, its more of a case of acceptance than agreement. I do a lot of things each day/week/year that i do, i may not like them, but its a way/fact of life that they have to be done and paying for bike parking would be another one.
But if you DONT agree why then accept this. You have never struck me as one of the sheeple.
I am still really puzzled by your stance on this.
I am still really puzzled by your stance on this.I dont see why, its simple. You have to pay for parking your bike. We have got away without parking long enough, and we dont have to pay congestion charge, then so be it, it could be a lot worse. I agree that the system in place can be much improved, but thats about it. If we had to pay from day one, then would you be moaning about it, no! It would be a fact of life, much the same as this will be, like most things are, and i still find it hard to see this as a tax!
Viney, stop baiting and winding everyone up. I know what you're like! :P
Bill, for once this is not a wind up. Im serious about this. I just think its a load of hulabaloo over something trivial.
SoulKiss
12-05-09, 03:00 PM
I dont see why, its simple. You have to pay for parking your bike. We have got away without parking long enough, and we dont have to pay congestion charge, then so be it, it could be a lot worse. I agree that the system in place can be much improved, but thats about it. If we had to pay from day one, then would you be moaning about it, no! It would be a fact of life, much the same as this will be, like most things are, and i still find it hard to see this as a tax!
Fine, bring in free parking for cars too.
We already have to pay to put the on the road, surely that includes leaving them at the side of it.
If a structure has had to be built and so maintained, then charging is fine, however they should also be responsible for damage through attempted theft etc (but not for damage from clumsy drivers)
I'll simply put my concerns down to "thin end of the wedge" and leave it at that. I's not so much what it is(distasteful though that may be), as what it will surely become.
Once we're paying for parking, why not pay a reduced rate congestion charge too? It's not like bikes take up zero space on the roads. Sooner or later biking inside London becomes a decision that can't be justified financially for most, and that is something I'd hate to see.
Jambo
I'll simply put my concerns down to "thin end of the wedge" and leave it at that. I's not so much what it is(distasteful though that may be), as what it will surely become.
Once we're paying for parking, why not pay a reduced rate congestion charge too? It's not like bikes take up zero space on the roads. Sooner or later biking inside London becomes a decision that can't be justified financially for most, and that is something I'd hate to see.
JamboAgreed on that point one thing will lead to another, and when that day comes i'll come on the train.
you have been brainwashed :shaking2:
Biker Biggles
12-05-09, 03:14 PM
I think its sad that people in general feel so overwhelmed by the "powers that be" that they dont feel able or inclined to protest against things they actually disagree with.Whether it be Westminster Council or your employer or Gordon Browns mob or the local NHS Trust we let them get away with far too much.And Id be the first to admit Im as guilty of this inertia as the rest of us.We should cast a glance across La Manche and take a leaf out of the French livre.They dont get walked all over there,and it seems to be a better place to live for that.
Rorshach
12-05-09, 03:22 PM
< to viney> glad you can mate...im on shift work and the trains start/stop....
£300 a year (to begin with ) will literally stop me getting stuff for my kids
we pay enough in road tax/tax / council tax/ parking fines /bus lane fines (which pay for the parking spaces and upkeep )
as Londoners and as bikers, we need to make this small stand , otherwise as jambo says , they will end up taxing the air we breath (well actually the air space is already taxed ...so i guess they already do!)
SUPERSTARDJ01
12-05-09, 03:39 PM
Is there a online petition?
SoulKiss
12-05-09, 03:46 PM
Is there a online petition?
Online Petitions dont work, hence the direct action.
Ceri JC
12-05-09, 03:56 PM
Fine, bring in free parking for cars too.
We already have to pay to put the on the road, surely that includes leaving them at the side of it.
I have always felt this way. Vehicles driving around looking for somewhere to park is a ridiculous use of time, petrol, money, road space, cause of air pollution, etc. I can understand in old places never designed for cars (Bath, central London etc.) but I think more than adequate amounts of free parking should be a requirement at all new developments (new builds, out of town department stores, etc.).
On a related note, about "bikes being dirtier than cars". Firstly, I don't care if they are: I'd ride one anyway. That said, I don't like:
a) Enviromentalists talking %*£"$cks about it, when in reality, they don't know for sure, either way.
b) The thought that some potential new biker who is an enviromentalist being potentially put off riding for unfounded ecological principles.
c) Shoddy science in general.
I don't know for sure that bikes aren't worse than cars, but I do know that I'm not convinced that they are. I agree they're not proportionally 'better' to the extent as you would expect from their size and weight, but I've never seen any data on them that says they are worse that passes the flimsiest scientific rigour. The major common failings (and I've seen at least one of these in every single report on the matter I've read) include:
1. A far too small sample size (for example, in one instance, picking a couple of cars and one bike) to make any broad, sweeping statement about bikes and cars "in general".
2. Very unrepresentative bikes (one from around 2005 used a 1986 litre bike as its token bike).
3. Not comparing 'like with like'; rather than comparing a Prius to a C90, or better still, one of the several models of electric bike that exist, they compare a Prius to a litre sportsbike. How about comparing a bike to its car "equivalent" instead:
A scooter to a smartcar,
A Deauville to a Vectra,
A BMW tourer to a BMW tourer,
A SS600 to a Focus ST3,
A Ducati to a Ferrari,
etc.
4. Not factoring in the construction of the vehicle: a vast proportion of the environmental damage done by a vehicle, throughout the whole life of the vehicle, is the construction (and associated shipping and creation of parts) and shipping of the vehicle itself. Cars have more
5. All sorts of shady, vague supposistions about damage per number of passenger miles. At its worst, I saw one that more than doubled the damage done by the bike because (I'm paraphrasing), "bikes almost always only have one rider, whereas most cars can carry as many as five".
Overlooking the fact that:
a) Although most bike miles are also single occupancy, plenty of people use their bikes two up.
b) The majority of miles done by cars are also single occupancy.
And finally, the absolutely huge one:
6. Not factoring in filtering. Being sat still for two hours simply does not happen on a bike. Try the M6, M25 or London for a week by car and say the same thing. Add in all the extra stop/starting and deceleration/acceleration associated with congestion too.
They also neglect to consider some of the things working against the bikes. Although these are fewer than the ones for, the fact they're overlooked, further muddies the waters and illustrates the lack of proof or thorough investigation either way:
a) Catalytic converters on bikes are stupid. Their creation are bad for the environment and the majority on bikes are junked fairly early on.
b) A bike's general shorter shelf life.
c) Should you factor in the economies of scale in terms of environmental damage into these calculations (bikes are made in fewer numbers, does that mean an individual bike should be percieved as more damaging)?
Spiderman
12-05-09, 04:29 PM
So the simple and only argument is...We havent paid it until now! Its a bot like saying when a NSL road is reduced to 50 from 60 saying "it used to be 60, so why should i be fined for doing 60"
Mate i cant see why this isnt enough reason for you. If your neighbour suddenly said you have to pay him £1 a day if you walk by the front of his house to get to yours would you accept it just cos he says this is now how it is? Of course not. However if he said Viney old chap, you walk over my grass and i really dont mind that but i tink you shold pay towards the upkeep of that bit of grass you wear out, would you find it more reasonable?
If ther was a good reason why bikes should all of a sudden, in one lcation only, pay for something they get for free then i dont think anyone would complain...if the reason was just and genuine. But this isn't. Westminster have lied about the number of new spaces created and the security they have provided.
Also on the NSL thing.... if the road was safe to use at 60 before why is it now not? Cos some drunk killed someone on that strecth of road and their parents were so naieve that all they saw was the fact he was driving too fast and NOT the fact he was drunk!
The a-hole who thinks drink driving is ok cos he's the one doing it is also the same a-hole who will do 90 on that road weather the sign says 60 or 50.
There is a situation like this near me. Its crosses a dual carriageway and i grew up in that area with it being a simple "give way" sign control. I learnt to drive in that area and used it daily when i did start driving and all this time it was still controlled bu a give way sign. Years later they decided to control it with traffic lights, not becuse the road layout had changed or it had become any more dangerous but simply cos of the increase in traffic on the road who would ignore the yellow box junction there.
When i use it at night and it not so busy i treat it as i alays did, like its a give way sign. I regularly and routinely go thru the light when its red. Why? Cos i have my own brain and neither the road or my driving have changed, if anything both have got better. me with far more years of road experience and the road itself with better lighting and surfacing.
Why on earth would i pay attention to something that was never there before and is only of any use when the road is very busy?
Why on earth should i pay for parking my bike in exaclty the same placeas i used to park it before for free when the bay has not got any bigger, safer or emptier?
joshmac
12-05-09, 04:33 PM
I'm knackered after reading that! :lol:
Good post though, interesting arguments :smt045
[EDIT]: And now Zig's written an essay to read... that'll be another 5 mins lol
Spiderman
12-05-09, 04:39 PM
Ceri's was a good read for sure but full of facts n things. Mine's a bit easier on the old brainworks :)
+1 Ceri JC, points well put :smt045
rictus01
12-05-09, 07:15 PM
As for the comment mark about me agreeing with them, its more of a case of acceptance than agreement. I do a lot of things each day/week/year that i do, i may not like them, but its a way/fact of life that they have to be done and paying for bike parking would be another one.
capitulating suit you better then :smt102
Cheers Mark
Jamiebridges123
12-05-09, 10:05 PM
Sorry for the derail, but above the talking about the NSL really annoyed me today...
I went out for an evening ride to pass the time.. I went up towards Swindon the back way. I ended up on a piece of A road, was on it for about 15 miles. It was almost totally straight bar a few corners. It was a 50mph limit. I mean seriously WTF? A side road was about 1/4 of the width this road and that was a national. I mean come on. I was ranting away in my helmet "what sort of bloody government do we live in when our local councils can't even be sensible!"
Looked at my speedo saw maybe 65 as I find it difficult to stay at a given speed, especially at night I lose concentration. Looked up, saw speed camera. Big "oh $$$$" and loads of brake. Managed to get through haha.
Must admit, previously I was very much in agreement with Viney. The £1/£1.5 a day is certainly way less than even a fifth of what a car has to pay. I also felt very embarrassed by our representatives on the TV news trying to justify our case compared with WC putting their case. And on the protest I was very conscious of undoing all the good relations I try to promote with car drivers on the road every day (giving a wave every time they pull over to let me pass) seeing as we are not protesting against the cars that we were holding up, and the fact that hardly any of the protesters had any promotional material explaining what they were protesting about :roll:
But I have been convinced by the arguments in the thread, so will continue to support the protests (so long as it doesn't inconvenience me 8-[)
Spiderman
15-05-09, 01:11 PM
.... It was a 50mph limit. I mean seriously WTF? A side road was about 1/4 of the width this road and that was a national. I mean come on. I was ranting away in my helmet "what sort of bloody government do we live in when our local councils can't even be sensible!"
Looked at my speedo saw maybe 65 as I find it difficult to stay at a given speed, especially at night I lose concentration. Looked up, saw speed camera. Big "oh $$$$" and loads of brake. Managed to get through haha.
Sadly most speed limits are nothing to do with the raod or its useage but a way to catch more people who are unaware of a scamera lurking, just waiting to raise more of that lovely moolah for the Govt.
get a inforad ;)
What he said is good advice. i got mine and fitted it in a few minutes yesterday. Well worth the money imho cos if it saves me one speeding fine its paid for itsefl. PM me if you want a link to a cheap one :)
Must admit, previously I was very much in agreement with Viney. The £1/£1.5 a day is certainly way less than even a fifth of what a car has to pay. I also felt very embarrassed by our representatives on the TV news trying to justify our case compared with WC putting their case. And on the protest I was very conscious of undoing all the good relations I try to promote with car drivers on the road every day (giving a wave every time they pull over to let me pass) seeing as we are not protesting against the cars that we were holding up, and the fact that hardly any of the protesters had any promotional material explaining what they were protesting about :roll:
But I have been convinced by the arguments in the thread, so will continue to support the protests (so long as it doesn't inconvenience me 8-[)
i agree wiht all your points except i was never in agreement with the charge, even if it had been a penny a day i would have fought it as its simply a way for them to start a regime of charging and from experience we know the Govt find road users of all kinds easy targets for revenue generation and i have no doubt they would find a "justification" to raise the costs.
if you remember the Congestion Charge was £5 and then it went up to £8. Very few people know the real reason behind this increase and they would be disgusted but not suprised if they found out. The Govt just put a good spin on it so no-one would ask or find out the real reason behind it.
Either way Stu, glad you were there. The more of us shows up, the less they can ignore us.
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