Project - Snail

[plowsie]

The new toy is here and my aim is to keep this thread updated with whats going on and what gets fixed/changed/serviced. From, making the tea, to picking up a spanner, that'll be about it. Lol :lol:

It's gonna need some work and I aim to have the engine running ASAP at least. So any of you that have any time free and fancy helping me rebuild a CBR600F engine because they know what they are doing then let me know, I will put on a BBQ for you and fill you with Coffee/cold drinks. Otherwise, happy Haynes'ing for me :) I have a spare engine so can pick spares from that and check over too.

Brakes will be re-done obviously, new filters, bearings greased, fork oil changed, may get rear shock re-done.

Anyway, pics - a bit poo quality as taken on the BB.

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w46/plowsie/Snail/IMG00058-20090511-1439.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w46/plowsie/Snail/IMG00057-20090511-1439.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w46/plowsie/Snail/IMG00056-20090511-1434.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w46/plowsie/Snail/IMG00055-20090511-1434.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w46/plowsie/Snail/IMG00054-20090511-1434.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w46/plowsie/Snail/IMG00053-20090511-1434.jpg

[Holdup]

Looks fun, if i was nearer id join you as i no longer have a project bike :-({|= :smt022

[Spiderman]

wow, is it really foggy where you live mate? Or does the lens on your camera need a good wipe with a soft non abrasive cloth? ;)

[Grinch]

Plowsie's lens getting all steamed up with excitement?

[plowsie]

wow, is it really foggy where you live mate? Or does the lens on your camera need a good wipe with a soft non abrasive cloth? ;)
Like I say the camera is shoite :lol:

[rictus01]

so what's up with the engine then ? is this just a track bike or going to be a road one ?

Cheers Mark.

[plowsie]

so what's up with the engine then ? is this just a track bike or going to be a road one ?

Cheers Mark.
Track bike initially, but, should I fancy getting back on the roads, I will get a daytime MOT on it.

As far as I am aware, the engine in there crunched up second gear. I really don't know what happened, the guy who sold it to me bought it off another guy like this and didn't have the time for it, but to take it apart and give it me as it is. There is no history to the other engine either so until I can get in the one thats in there and get some advice what doesn't look right, I won't know. The weird thing is, he took the head casing off (probably wrong terminology) and downpipes, so all new gasket set will go on order as soon as I can afford it.

EDIT: Will get some more pictures on a proper camera later on and upload them.

[gettin2dizzy]

Track bike initially, but, should I fancy getting back on the roads, I will get a daytime MOT on it.

Have you given up road riding?

[plowsie]

Have you given up road riding?
For now, yep. Seems its for the best. My knee cannot and will not play ball either at thee moment.

[gettin2dizzy]

For now, yep. Seems its for the best. My knee cannot and will not play ball either at thee moment.
I bet you won't last the whole summer ;)

[plowsie]

I bet you won't last the whole summer ;)
I bet I will, the only thing I have is this, or the SR, which I have to take back to Lozzo when I can rest weight on my knee, so guess that will be not lasting when I ride that :lol:

[rictus01]

What model year is it ? I could probably find a day somewhere to rip it down and find out what's busted, but to be honest given the lack of history it could be the whole gearbox ?

Cheers Mark.

[plowsie]

What model year is it ? I could probably find a day somewhere to rip it down and find out what's busted, but to be honest given the lack of history it could be the whole gearbox ?

Cheers Mark.
Exactly Mark, I'm relatively happy I have a spare with it so I may be able to steal what I ned from that. Once I get home tonight I will have a look into what year it is. 91-96 model is as close as I get.

By all means if you fancy the ride over and are free then coooooool :) Can teach me a bit or two :)

[plowsie]

Well, spare engine fully apart this morning, looks okay to me.

*medievil voice* Onto the engine in the frame men!

On a high that the spare wasn't too hard, and my initial information was that this engine had a problem in second gear, the key information that lacked was that it was likely this engine seized up in second gear! Bits had already been reomoved from the engine so it was time to get the oil pan, I knew they hadn't done this because they use this dodgy orange engine sealant and the oil pan bolts were not loose or anything. Alas, there's ya problem c0cker, a few shavings of casing (read - chunks). Pictures to follow later onski.

[xXBADGERXx]

Sounds slightly ominous

[sv-robo]

wow, is it really foggy where you live mate? Or does the lens on your camera need a good wipe with a soft non abrasive cloth? ;)
Nah,he just smokes a lot!!:p

[plowsie]

As promised some piccys

The spare engine down to pieces

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w46/plowsie/Snail/th_IMG00070-20090517-1013.jpg (http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w46/plowsie/Snail/?action=view&current=IMG00070-20090517-1013.jpg)
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w46/plowsie/Snail/th_IMG00071-20090517-1013.jpg (http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w46/plowsie/Snail/?action=view&current=IMG00071-20090517-1013.jpg)

The aforementioned immigrants in the main engines oil pan.

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w46/plowsie/Snail/th_IMG00072-20090517-1040.jpg (http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w46/plowsie/Snail/?action=view&current=IMG00072-20090517-1040.jpg)
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w46/plowsie/Snail/th_IMG00073-20090517-1040.jpg (http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w46/plowsie/Snail/?action=view&current=IMG00073-20090517-1040.jpg)
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w46/plowsie/Snail/th_IMG00074-20090517-1040.jpg (http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w46/plowsie/Snail/?action=view&current=IMG00074-20090517-1040.jpg)
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w46/plowsie/Snail/th_IMG00075-20090517-1040.jpg (http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w46/plowsie/Snail/?action=view&current=IMG00075-20090517-1040.jpg)
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w46/plowsie/Snail/th_IMG00076-20090517-1041.jpg (http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w46/plowsie/Snail/?action=view&current=IMG00076-20090517-1041.jpg)
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w46/plowsie/Snail/th_IMG00077-20090517-1041.jpg (http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w46/plowsie/Snail/?action=view&current=IMG00077-20090517-1041.jpg)

Sorry the pictures are rubbish, I may be able to get some better quality ones soon...

Engine removal was pretty easy to be honest, just stuck a car jack and a piece of wood under it and an over worked missus to support the engine when I lifted the bike off it.

[Lozzo]

I bet I will, the only thing I have is this, or the SR, which I have to take back to Lozzo when I can rest weight on my knee, so guess that will be not lasting when I ride that :lol:

No rush on that Stu, you bring it back only when you're able to safely and not a moment before. If I need it desperately I'll catch a bus or a lift over to collect it from you.

[Speedy]

WOW. That engine must have been like a Kinda Surprise Egg before you stripped it, only it wasn't a nice surprise when you did!!!

So what are you gonna do with that one? Are you gonna try and make one good one from the two?

[plowsie]

I am Speedy yep, well, try.

Those of you that haven't seen the piccies on Facebook of the Menage et Trois between The Piston, Valve and the Conrod :lol: I will upload later.

[lukemillar]

Can I ask a potentially stupid question?

To what extent are internal parts from 2 identical, yet worn engines interchangable? It's not really a reflection on your situation Plowsie - as people are mentioning valves and pistons (can see the pics).

Do some engine parts wear in unision which make them unique to being fitted together i.e crank and crankcases? I'm just interested :)

[plowsie]

I bloody hope so Luke ;) :lol:

Unfortunately, my spare engine seems to have slightly bigger bores and pistons and that has put a damper on things :(

[plowsie]

I bloody hope so Luke ;) :lol:

Unfortunately, my spare engine seems to have slightly bigger bores and pistons and that has put a damper on things :(

[yorkie_chris]

Can I ask a potentially stupid question?

To what extent are internal parts from 2 identical, yet worn engines interchangable? It's not really a reflection on your situation Plowsie - as people are mentioning valves and pistons (can see the pics).

Do some engine parts wear in unision which make them unique to being fitted together i.e crank and crankcases? I'm just interested :)

Rings are a one-time thing. Once a set have bedded in together that's it, you can't really stick them in another cylinder and expect good results. The piston maybe but the rings wear in place and need this to seal.

Some gears will wear together, but chances are you will get away with this. Things like dog teeth I would imagine are not critical(so long as both OK), but I would keep each gear together. Stuff like oil and water pump, power requirement is small enough to use either, the gears don't get a massive amount of strain like drivetrain does.

Crank and crankcases, well what type of bearings are you looking at? Plain bearings will be fine, as in good conditions (running) the bearing surfaces never actually touch. However there may be several different sizes available to get the clearance right. If it's a roller bearing crank like on the aircooled dinosaurs and smokers then it's just drop in. They're parts ****** that will take anything :smt118

There's also the crank endfloat shims to consider, these aren't so much a wear item but 2 sets of cases and cranks won't be the same to within 2 thou or however near it needs to be. So you'll need to adjust that. (probably)

Valves, I wouldn't mix and match valves in guides. If it's come out, put it back in same way.
Same with buckets. Rockers. Collets. Springs. Seats. Retainers.
Seals are a wear item so replace them as matter of course if you've had them out.
Also be careful, if you are removing valves DON'T rag them out. There will be a burr on top of valve where collets sit, take this off with a fine whetstone or you will rip the seals and possibly knacker the guide.

[yorkie_chris]

I bloody hope so Luke ;) :lol:

Unfortunately, my spare engine seems to have slightly bigger bores and pistons and that has put a damper on things :(

Use the barrel off the spare engine too?

I've lost track of what's f##ked and what isn't lol.

[plowsie]

Use the barrel off the spare engine too?

I've lost track of what's f##ked and what isn't lol.
Right spare engine, seems to have bigger pistons cos they dont fit in the main engine. And the main engine pistons seem to be too small for the spare engines, as in there is a slight bit of clearance down the sides that doesn't look too enticing, I think I may be best to go and get some sort of digical measuring device to be accurate.

Upon looking at the spare, a slightly less battered piston but still classed as fecked. Somebody liked their engine fecking.

[plowsie]

http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs007.snc1/4172_80438678601_508953601_1826348_4519944_n.jpg

http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v645/128/35/508953601/n508953601_1826349_2347512.jpg

http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs007.snc1/4172_80439308601_508953601_1826350_4135433_n.jpg

http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v645/128/35/508953601/n508953601_1826351_849959.jpg

[yorkie_chris]

See this is why you should have bought some old gixxer ... they are such parts bin specials you can fit nearly anything from nearly any other model!

So is that the head off the spare or the one in the bike?

[plowsie]

The head is the main, is it okay to interchange that with the spare engines head? Seen a wiseco kit earlier, my that does.look fit.

[yorkie_chris]

Yeah if it will fit (the 2 engines are for the same model right?). If you're using a big bore you'll need the matching head gasket.

[monkey]

Ouch! What's going on in the second pic in the first post Plowsie? Has the frame been drilled and welded?

[plowsie]

Ouch! What's going on in the second pic in the first post Plowsie? Has the frame been drilled and welded?
Without looking at it face to face I couldn't tell you mate, i think that specific bracket type structure whatever it is, is where the tank bolts in and I think the holes could possibly be the guys locating method for the fairings IIRC, haven't had her fully dressed yet so cannot say :lol:

[plowsie]

Woohoo, Friday night I went over to Crewe to see Mister C and nicked his engine out of his CBR from the CBR Graveyard :D Got it all tonked in on Saturday in most areas but one bolt was a bit of a rubbish to get back on, Speedplay comes round on Sunday and poof, straight in (sometimes you just need a better perspective :lol:) so after that, managed to get back on carbs, airbox, chain all fitted back on, some of the electrickery and hoses were all over the place so had to sort them.

Now...
Ouch! What's going on in the second pic in the first post Plowsie? Has the frame been drilled and welded?
After Speedplay had a look at these and pointed them out all over the place, he thinks they could be ways to save weight :shock:

Tonights plan - All calipers off and sorted (If I can find my Red Rubber Grease), then try and prize up the radiator.

Need to get hold of a bearing extractor apparently to get the rear wheel and front wheel bearings out, if I can get one of them, I shall try to do that aswell.

Need to get some header bolts (to hold the headers in) and some gaskets, and think I may need some of the hoses, and a fuel tap as some plank decided to snap the old one :shock:

[flymo]

After Speedplay had a look at these and pointed them out all over the place, he thinks they could be ways to save weight :shock:


Ha, this made me chuckle after just looking at the massive mountings that fasten the handlebars to the forks. Cant really call them 'clip-ons' :-)

Its amazing just how far bike design has moved on when you look at the detail on a new CBR or R6.

[plowsie]

Ha, this made me chuckle after just looking at the massive mountings that fasten the handlebars to the forks. Cant really call them 'clip-ons' :-)

Its amazing just how far bike design has moved on when you look at the detail on a new CBR or R6.
I think the ide of them are pretty cool, they are fairly light on the hand tubes I think, think the idea is, in an off you don't have to replace the whole jobbie, just the tubes. You'll know better than me mate....

It is one thing that I thought when going at it yesterday, some aspects of the modern day motorcycle are much more complex (more biased to computers), this is more hands on get in there and fix it. I took the old CBR I had apart only once but not to this depth, it's a learning trip really for me, with a bonus at the end of it.

[flymo]

in an off you don't have to replace the whole jobbie, just the tubes.

Yeah, from memory my CBR was the same, slightly newer and more rounded monting blocks but basically the same. Just seems a shock seeing them after the SV.

[plowsie]

Right, last night, didn't get as far as the calipers, well I did get one off and the fluid out but nothing done with it as I couldn't get the pads out, till I noticed how they were held down. Now gotta get the caliper back on the bike and hope i can get the retaining cap and pin out (you gotta love Honda).

Ady come round, so I stopped that as hammers got involved and there were more important things to do. I took the carbs back off, routed the throttle cable, destroyed a rubbber carb clamp thingy but managed to repair it okay we think, will soon see. and got everything back in place and screwed on properly. Then after he went, got the downpipes on after some work, but by eck it was a task. Looked at all the wiring and thought, there is no reason this can't turn over now, but a flat battery. Starter button and nothing, okay we'll charge the battery.

Got to it this morning to see if she would turn over, after working out the actual configuration on how to start it..................................she ticked...and that was it, for as long as I held the starter button in...The ticking is coming from here

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w46/plowsie/Thingymabob-1.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w46/plowsie/IMG00134-20090618-0815.jpg

And a video of the tick, as long as I hold in the starter it will do that. I'm thinking maybe I have wired the starter motor up wrong...

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w46/plowsie/th_VID00000-20090618-0817.jpg (http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w46/plowsie/?action=view&current=VID00000-20090618-0817.flv)

[flymo]

Sounds like a dodgy solenoid or that the battery is knackered. Get some jump leads across to a car battery, leave the car engine off and give it a go.

If you get the same noise, turn the igniton on and short the solenoid with a spanner, should spin the starter motor without you needing to press the start button.

[plowsie]

When you say the solenoid, is that the bit in the piccie?

Short the two connectors on that you mean?

[flymo]

When you say the solenoid, is that the bit in the piccie?

Short the two connectors on that you mean?

Yep, the thing that is ticking. There should be a thick black lead from the battery to the solenoid, then onwards to the positive terminal on the starter motor.

When you press the start button the solenoid acts as a relay and allows the high current to pass to the starter motor. If you make sure the ignition is switched on, shorting across those two big terminals on the solenoid should spin up the starter motor as if you had pressed the start button.

If the starter spins with your spanner 'key' :-) then you likely have a dodgy solenoid or connection to it.

To test the starter itself just pass a jump lead from the positive battery terminal directly to the positive (there's probably only one as the case would be the earth) terminal on the starter. If its good and you have juice in the battery it will spin.

[plowsie]

Just to nip this in the bud before I go and check that everything is right as I think I may have solved my problem. It looks like the battery is just connected to the starter and thats it, that seems wrong to me, or am I just been dumb?

So if thats right from this picture, positive should hook up to blue, negative to red, the green has some sort of hook on it already, no clue what that is for :S

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w46/plowsie/Startermotor.jpg

[flymo]

Just to nip this in the bud before I go and check that everything is right as I think I may have solved my problem. It looks like the battery is just connected to the starter and thats it, that seems wrong to me, or am I just been dumb?

So if thats right from this picture, positive should hook up to blue, negative to red, the green has some sort of hook on it already, no clue what that is for :S

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w46/plowsie/Startermotor.jpg

I would expect to see a positive from the solenoid connected to the blue circle. The starter motor case would be earthed due to it being fastened to the engine case, there may be an earth lead connected to one of the fastening bolts but thats probably there as an engine earth/frame connection or similar, not for the starter itself.

Think of the solenoid as a switch. When you press the starter button its switched on, supplying the starter motor. When you let go of the button it switches off, along with the starter.

If it was permanently connected to the battery without a soleniod then the starter would be turning permanently if the battery had any charge. Pretty unlikely.

With a good earth connection, if you took a jump lead from the positive terminal on the battery to the terminal you have circled in blue, the starter should spin up. Obviously make sure the bike is not in gear before doing this :-) or you'll be chasing it down the garage.

Also, check that there is an earth lead connecting the engine to the frame or at least the wiring loom. These can corrode if left for too long and cause all number of weird electrical issues.

[plowsie]

I would expect to see a positive from the solenoid connected to the blue circle. The starter motor case would be earthed due to it being fastened to the engine case, there may be an earth lead connected to one of the fastening bolts but thats probably there as an engine earth/frame connection or similar, not for the starter itself.
Thats how it was, okay so I'm not playing dumb then and got it right :) So will try the spanner 'key' trick.

Gotcha on all the other stuff.

So if I was to just connect the battery to the starter motor with jump leads she would spin the starter motor? Spose I could give that a bash if no joy.

Cheers mate.

[flymo]

So if I was to just connect the battery to the starter motor with jump leads she would spin the starter motor?

Yep, you got it.

Whether the engine would actually start though is an entirely different story, but we can cross that bridge when you get there.

[plowsie]

Right, tried it all. Think the battery is now fudged. I've connected up the starter motor to another bike battery whilst running and it sounds like it wants to spin, then just gets stopped by a force(as I'd something is blocking the starter from spinning). I checked the starter first to see if it would spin out of the motor and it does so no need to try another starter, but I did, same result.

Which now leads me to believe that something in the engine is stopped it from turning at all...

Now, what gets me is, on the engine in the frame, the three connector pins from the altenator are not connected (bear with me here), but they will lead to Mr nowhere anyway, as there is no reg/rec on the bike...whilst I was testing different methods to get the starter going, I connected these up to the pins where they would go and no joy.

Baffled doesn't cover it.

[flymo]

Next thing I would be checking is that the engine actually turns. Remove spark plugs to remove compression and give it a go, it should spin nice and easy. Make sure its not in gear.

If it doesnt you have something more serious to worry about.

[plowsie]

Dumbass mode- Do I leave them in the caps and earth them to the frame?

[flymo]

Dumbass mode- Do I leave them in the caps and earth them to the frame?

Easist way is to just unplug the ECU and give it a spin.

[flymo]

Easist way is to just unplug the ECU and give it a spin.

Edit...just had a read back through, I lost track which engine you had in.

This is the one from Mister C yes? Was it running ok before you got it?

[plowsie]

Yeah mate, it was running fine when he give it me last week.

[flymo]

Yeah mate, it was running fine when he give it me last week.

Ok, see no reason then why it shouldnt turn the motor over with the starter. It might not start but thats the ignition system, seperate to the starter.

Just a little puzzled, you mentioned that the engine seemed to lock, or at least not turn over. May be that the starter itself has a fault.

[plowsie]

Ok, see no reason then why it shouldnt turn the motor over with the starter. It might not start but thats the ignition system, seperate to the starter.

Just a little puzzled, you mentioned that the engine seemed to lock, or at least not turn over. May be that the starter itself has a fault.
But like I said, I tested 2 starters out of the engine and they spin fine with power from other bikes battery.

[mister c]

Stu, just a thought, have you had the plugs out, or dropped the oil since you took it from here?
I am just wondering if it may be "hydrauliced" because it was on it's side when we put it in the car. Could be worth whipping the plugs out & manually turn the engine over with a socket on the end of the crank just to see if any oil has made it's way into the barrels. Tis just a thought. The engine was turning over fine, so I cant see as it's something on the motor itself.

[plowsie]

Had socket on end of crank just now, not budging, broke a ratchet trying, it turns slightly but not very far and not free at all :(

[mister c]

Had socket on end of crank just now, not budging, broke a ratchet trying, it turns slightly but not very far and not free at all :(
Have you had the spark plugs out & tried it?, if so, it totally amazes me, it was running the day before.

[plowsie]

Have you had the spark plugs out & tried it?, if so, it totally amazes me, it was running the day before.
Yep plugs are out. Is there any chance oil could have got into the head and caused a vaccuum type effect? but then that raises the question, why would that stop it from turning?

[yorkie_chris]

Hydraulic lock.

[flymo]

Hydraulic lock.

Would have expected the motor to turn via a socket on the crank Chris with the plugs removed.

[plowsie]

I drained the oil yesterday, would that not have cleared the hydrolock? Or is it a remove the head jobbie?

I tell you what, I officially hate engines! :lol:

[plowsie]

Would have expected the motor to turn via a socket on the crank Chris with the plugs removed.
Not if it is locked via more than one piston maybe?

[flymo]

Not if it is locked via more than one piston maybe?

Nah, if all the spark plugs are out then the cylinders cannot lock it must be elsewhere. Make sure there is venting to the engine block by removing the oil filler cap before attempting to turn the engine.

Engines are fun :-), think of it like the daily crossword.

Have you had a peek with a torch into the spark plug holes?

[yorkie_chris]

Would have expected the motor to turn via a socket on the crank Chris with the plugs removed.
Yup, but...

I drained the oil yesterday, would that not have cleared the hydrolock?

Have you pulled the plugs then?

[plowsie]

Yup, but...



Have you pulled the plugs then?
Yeah.

[plowsie]

Solved I think

Was having a think earlier on, started from my way back and solved it I think, the cog that rotates the shaft that's rotated by the starter, was jammed up against the casing, for some reason it wasn't located where it should be, gonna see if this cures it then if not, move on to other ideas.

[flymo]

Solved I think

Was having a think earlier on, started from my way back and solved it I think, the cog that rotates the shaft that's rotated by the starter, was jammed up against the casing, for some reason it wasn't located where it should be, gonna see if this cures it then if not, move on to other ideas.

Sounds likely. How come it came loose? Is it held on by a circlip or something that may have come off?

Once thats sorted try everything by hand with a socket on the end of the crank. If it all rotates fairly easily drop the plugs back in and we can proceed :-)

[plowsie]

Yeah, rotates say half a turn and then gets stuck again :shock: held in by just a pin, starting to think, witht the casing on, how the feck :???:

[plowsie]

Grrrrrrrrrrrr, put her all back together, got it topped up with oil, connected the jump leads up to the starter motor as the battery is dead, one turn maybe and kaputt, jammed again :???:

In all the fuss trying to drain the old oil, I overtightened the drain plug being a **** and having the ratchet the wrong way. Doh! I have 2 other pans in the garage so not too much of a problem.

[plowsie]

Hang on a minute, am I being a complete idiot here?

The battery is completely fudged, this is a fact. Does this stop the coils doing their job?

[Stig]

If the battery is totalled how are you getting power anyway?

[Sosha]

Sorry Plowsie... too thick to make sense of your posts.

Were you saying that the starter goes whizz CLANK?

If so and it's the same sort of starter as the 400 then it could be low battery.

If/ but/ maybe & if you're even taking about starter Motors.

There's a name for that type. Can't remember it. Yorkie Chris can. just string whiz, clank & starter motors into the same sentence.

So far, so useless

EDIT Had socket on end of crank just now, not budging, broke a ratchet trying, it turns slightly but not very far and not free at all :(

Ahhhh ignore the above then - if the engine aint turning you don't want to be hitting the starter....

[plowsie]

If the battery is totalled how are you getting power anyway?
Another bikes battery using jump cables on the starter, this is how I got a slight turn out of the engine last night.

[flymo]

Hang on a minute, am I being a complete idiot here?

The battery is completely fudged, this is a fact. Does this stop the coils doing their job?

I thought the engine wouldnt even spin, that needs sorting before you worry about ignition. The engine should spin over no problem without any coils at all but obviously wouldnt fire into life.

If there is mechanical resistance to the engine even turning then you need to be careful using the starter until you figure out what it is.

I wonder if the second battery is weak or the jump leads have a poor connection resulting in not much umph to turn the engine properly. I cant remember but does it spin properly by turning a socket on teh end of the crank? If it does then a healthy battery should spin it no bother, I would use a car battery instead if you have one, loads more cranking power.

[plowsie]

I thought the engine wouldnt even spin, that needs sorting before you worry about ignition. The engine should spin over no problem without any coils at all but obviously wouldnt fire into life.

If there is mechanical resistance to the engine even turning then you need to be careful using the starter until you figure out what it is.
Ahh well it spun for like maybe one turn then seemed to get stuck at the starter again...

[rictus01]

Basic order of business

Does the motor turn freely (by hand) = No (make sure it's not in gear)
Remove Plugs, does it turn now = No
Remove start motor, turn now? = No
Remove cams, does it move now? = No (check valves)
Remove Head , turns now? = No (and check pistons and bores)
Remove engine side casings,turns now? = No (visualise transfer gearing)
remove clutch plates from basket, turns now? = No
split engine and examin crank/rods and mains.

Cheers Mark

[flymo]

this was a working motor until it got transported wasnt it?

[plowsie]

Basic order of business

Does the motor turn freely (by hand) = No (make sure it's not in gear)
Remove Plugs, does it turn now = No
Remove start motor, turn now? = No
Remove cams, does it move now? = No (check valves)
Remove Head , turns now? = No (and check pistons and bores)
Remove engine side casings,turns now? = No (visualise transfer gearing)
remove clutch plates from basket, turns now? = No
split engine and examin crank/rods and mains.

Cheers Mark
Thanks Mark :)

Not something I thought I'd be doing with the new motor :(

[plowsie]

this was a working motor until it got transported wasnt it?
Yeah, which is why just looking at what Mark has said, there could be a prob with the way the clutch plates & basket were sat in the car.

[mister c]

I keep coming back to this thread to see how you are getting on & I am totally gobsmacked that it hasn't been a straight forward thing.
I would still say that oil is somewhere it shouldn't be, other than the misfire which I thought was the coils or carbs, the motor was fine. I would run with Rictus' ideas.
I certainly wouldn't try to turn the motor over with a battery. I did that once with a Moto Guzzi & ended up smashing a piston, use a ratchet on the end of the crank, as Mark says it should turn over by hand quite easily

[flymo]

Col, you didnt sell him that one we found on the scrappy did you with the bullet holes in it? :-)

Sounds like something has fallen out of place in transporting it.

[plowsie]

Right, last night, took the clutch bits out as have to if the casings come apart. Nothing to do with round that area that is smacking me in the face.

My mate that came round to help me have a look seems to think that it could be the valves, as it seems to make one revolution then get completely rammed stuck, when I told him that when we tried bumping it, it just locked up, he said, sounds like the valves.

So, Col had this running before, how the feck, transporting it from his to mine have I messed them up:???:

[flymo]

Right, last night, took the clutch bits out as have to if the casings come apart. Nothing to do with round that area that is smacking me in the face.

My mate that came round to help me have a look seems to think that it could be the valves, as it seems to make one revolution then get completely rammed stuck, when I told him that when we tried bumping it, it just locked up, he said, sounds like the valves.

So, Col had this running before, how the feck, transporting it from his to mine have I messed them up:???:

Bugger. Before you go ripping the engine to bits take the cam covers off and look for anything obvious. If a valve spring cap has popped off or something then the cylinder head is going to need to come off I'm afraid. You'll probably need to get a set of head gaskets assuming nothing else is wrong.

[plowsie]

Well, after an overdue wait, the garage is being ripped to pieces tonight and so is the CBR, I am determined to get this bike running and to a respectable state.

[flymo]

oh no, the CBR may creep ahead of the CR250!

[plowsie]

Cam/head cover off, cams off, camchain loose, still no full turn.

The plungery type things (that's all I can call them because I don't know what they are) that the cams push down all seem about the right height, but might take a picture to let peeps on here decide before I take the head off.

If there is nothing wrong up there that can be solved without removing the head, it'll be.........

'To the the bottom of the deepest deep SON!'.

[flymo]

Cam/head cover off, cams off, camchain loose, still no full turn.

The plungery type things (that's all I can call them because I don't know what they are) that the cams push down all seem about the right height, but might take a picture to let peeps on here decide before I take the head off.

If there is nothing wrong up there that can be solved without removing the head, it'll be.........

'To the the bottom of the deepest deep SON!'.

Those er 'plungery type things' are the valves :-) I really dont think you can do enough damage by placing an engine on its side that would require removing the head, assuming it was turning freely beforehand.

When you say that it doesnt turn, what kind of resistance do you feel? Is it a sudden mechanical stop or the feeling of turning against pressure?

If you havent done this already (cant remember now) then I would be tempted to remove the spark plugs the clutch plates and the oil filler cap. If it doesnt turn now with a spanner on the crank then there sounds to be something serious in the way.

[fastdruid]

+1, it is possible to have filled the cylinders with oil and be hydraulically locked.

Druid

[plowsie]

Those er 'plungery type things' are the valves :-) I really dont think you can do enough damage by placing an engine on its side that would require removing the head, assuming it was turning freely beforehand.

When you say that it doesnt turn, what kind of resistance do you feel? Is it a sudden mechanical stop or the feeling of turning against pressure?

If you havent done this already (cant remember now) then I would be tempted to remove the spark plugs the clutch plates and the oil filler cap. If it doesnt turn now with a spanner on the crank then there sounds to be something serious in the way.
Its a mechanical stop, like someone had just rammed a brick in the way. Clutch plates are out already.

Checked hydrolock already Druid, there is no oil in the engine now, side casings are off etc.

[yorkie_chris]

You tried it with plugs out though?

[plowsie]

Plugs are not in.

[yorkie_chris]

It's f###d then.

[plowsie]

It's f###d then.
That is my conclusion now.

[yorkie_chris]

Tear it down, the carnage will be evident somewhere.

[plowsie]

Head first or shall I just rip cases apart?

[flymo]

are you absolutely sure there's nothing elsewhere externally that is jammed etc first? Check around the clutch drive area and in the generator casing. If they are free to rotate then it can only be the crank or pistons.

Head gaskets arent cheap though so check before you remove.

[yorkie_chris]

All anciliaries and covers first too. Starter gear and everything you can get to.

Then head cover, cams, finally head.

[flymo]

Just looking back at this post http://forums.sv650.org/showpost.php?p=1949586&postcount=64. Did you figure out what was going on there?

[plowsie]

Yeah, what happened was the starter cog thingy was jamming up against the casing everytime I was trying to turn the crank with a spanner (the starter motor was out), I just put the starter motor back in the keep the cog in place, that then freed up the crank a bit, and made it possible to get a full turn out of the crank. So now I am at the fact that I can only get a full turn at the generator side of the crank with a spanner.

[flymo]

Yeah, what happened was the starter cog thingy was jamming up against the casing everytime I was trying to turn the crank with a spanner (the starter motor was out), I just put the starter motor back in the keep the cog in place, that then freed up the crank a bit, and made it possible to get a full turn out of the crank. So now I am at the fact that I can only get a full turn at the generator side of the crank with a spanner.

Can you post a photo of the engine from the clutch side with clutch covers removed?

[plowsie]

Yeah man, no probs, will be later from home as at work ATM.

[plowsie]

Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooo :D

I have a free spinning engine :D :lol: What a relief!

Found a foreign piece of matter stuck in between the piston and valve, I couldn't understand why the piston wasn't returning, it seems this piece of metal wedged itself in somewhere, now everything is moving freely at the moment, I'm gonna do all the screws up on the head and turn the crank later just to be sure.

Oh and BTW, Col, if you read this, it is not your fault :smt053 I know whose and why it is their fault :smt021:toss: :lol: Let's just say for future reference, block any holes up with kitchen roll or something and don't let someone near a hammer next time eyy...:lol: