View Full Version : Clutchless Shifting
Is it ok on the engine to upshift clutchless from 1st to 2nd, is it just the risk of missing 2nd and revving the bollox off the engine?
Reason being i've done it a few times on the striple and it feels smoother and I seem to get a better shift, is it going to do any damage?
Ta
:D
I'm not so keen on it - I can't get it smooth like the higher gears where all it takes is a momentary roll-off so I tend not to.
I do it ALOT to be honest, fin it much easier and does not unsettle the bike as much when your really going for it.
See, thing is on the MM2 ride at the weekend, when giving it some welly i got a cleaner gear change and mis shifted less when not using the clutch on up shifts????
I do it ALOT to be honest, fin it much easier and does not unsettle the bike as much when your really going for it.
Exactly what I find.
joshmac
14-05-09, 08:42 PM
If you get it right it won't do any harm. If you get it wrong though I think you run the risk of causing a lot of damage. I sometimes do it on my SV.. I'm yet to get a horrible crunching sound lol
You can't really do it wrong. Either it goes into the next gear or it doesn't. I suppose trying to force it with a wide open throttle might do some damage, but rolling off momentarily with a preloaded gear lever and allowing it to snick smoothly from one gear to the next is not going to do any harm at all.
xXBADGERXx
14-05-09, 08:47 PM
Aren`t you supposed to be running this bike in at the moment Girth ? Maybe it needs a few more miles to make things a bit smoother
I'm totally fine with doing clutchless upshifts, been doing it since i got the thou 18months ago but wasnt sure if it was ok in 1st - 2nd. I get clean changes each time and no 'orrible noise so must be reeet.
Aren`t you supposed to be running this bike in at the moment Girth ? Maybe it needs a few more miles to make things a bit smoother
Its fully run in, got over 1,800 mile on it now :D
xXBADGERXx
14-05-09, 08:51 PM
Yeah might need a few more miles to make her a bit quieter mechanically
TheRamJam
14-05-09, 08:54 PM
I use cluthcless up shifting between 6k - 8k revs and its flawless. Tried clutchless above 8.5 and it wouldn't work I had to use the clutch.
I always shift down using the clutch and only do clutchless from 3 gear upwards. Don't think it does any damage if you do it properly
Sid Squid
14-05-09, 09:08 PM
You can't really do it wrong.
Oh yes - you most certainly can.
Anyway:
Clutchless changes...good or bad? Well I can tell you, categorically, right now:
It depends...mainly on the specific technique used.
A well executed clutchless change puts no more wear/stress/load on anything, and clearly puts less wear on the clutch, 'cos you didn't use it.
Upchanges:
There are several ways to do it, all essentially similar, differing only in detail and by the advantage they may give, (if you get it right that is).
Fastest change, used as if you're on a timed quarter, (ie drag racing):
Preload the lever firmly, roll out the throttle *just* enough for the dogs to be unloaded and the change to occur. With practice (ie lots of time on the strip), this can be a lightning fast change, the gear will go through very quickly, the time taken from on, to off, to on throttle is where the practice/skill lies, the further out you roll the throttle the longer it takes, the less you roll it out the harder the gear change is which takes longer too.
Downside: Wear, on everything, forks/grooves/pins/drum/dogs the lot, can be worth lots of time though, (relatively speaking, in a quick quarter), that said, as long as you don't make a constant habit of it, you won't break anything that quickly.
Lazy change, changing gear smoooooothly and unhurriedly just exactly like you would with the clutch, only...without:
Roll throttle out, lift gear lever, roll throttle back in again. If you do it right this change can be smoother than a cashmere codpiece, what you're looking for is for there to be no 'jerk' in the drive, bit of practice though and anyone can do it, the trick, (if there is one), is to only drop the throttle out to the point at which you would need it to be so that in the next gear you would neither be accelerating or decelerating from the speed at which you initiated the change, thus allows all the bits and pieces to be revolving at as near the same speed as possible thus they mesh together as imperceptibly as possible.
Downside: None, if you get it right, which isn't hard. Won't win you any drag races though.
Downchanges, Bit different this, similar principle to lazy change, that is: Smooooth.
First some things to know:
No matter what gear you're in, when the engine isn't running the speed of everything is nil, (yeah I know, blindingly bloody obvious, but hold that thought), that is; all the same speed. Using convenient figures, say that at 10,000rpm 1st gear makes the output shaft of the gearbox revolve at 1000rpm, 2nd 2000rpm, 3rd 3000rpm etc. Knowing this it can easily be seen that the faster the engine speed is, the further apart, relatively speaking, the speeds of the gearbox parts are. At 10,000rpm the relative speeds are 1000rpm apart, at 5000rpm 500rpm apart, at tickover (say 1000rpm, easy numbers see? I like that), the relative speeds only differ by 100rpm.
A smooth change occurs when the various bits that need to mesh are revolving at as similar speeds as is possible, in practice the slowest that you can run the engine is tickover, if you were to change down clutchless at as close to tickover as possible the relative parts would be as best speed matched as is possible. If you were to add the slightest smidgeon of throttle just as you go to change, this would unload the 'box and make the change easier, also it would speed the drive into the gearbox up a bit, such that it would be running at the slightly higher speed that the lower gear would demand to run at the same speed, just as in the the lazy change above.
Downside: Not easy to get right, and basically no advantage anyway, save for a useful technique to have when the clutch cable breaks at an inconvenient time, I have done several hundred miles like this, getting neutral while still rolling makes all the difference.
joshmac
14-05-09, 09:12 PM
You can't really do it wrong. Either it goes into the next gear or it doesn't. I suppose trying to force it with a wide open throttle might do some damage, but rolling off momentarily with a preloaded gear lever and allowing it to snick smoothly from one gear to the next is not going to do any harm at all.
I'm pretty sure you can, and it's not good if you do!
[EDIT]: The octopus beat me to it and did a much better job ;)
You guys will eventually round off the dogs on your gears and the bike will then start jumping out of gear under load. I inherited a KH250 that did this. Previous owner shifted without the clutch. Soon as it hit the power band it would jump out of 2nd gear into a false neutral. Remember that those racing types rebuild their boxes frequently and are not doing the mileage you do.
Sid Squid
14-05-09, 09:30 PM
You guys will eventually round off the dogs on your gears and the bike will then start jumping out of gear under load.
Not so, read my post above for useful information.
Did do Sid. I've had plenty dog boxes in bits for both bikes and cars. They all suffer in the long term.
joshmac
14-05-09, 09:43 PM
If done correctly, there shouldn't be much added wear and tear.
Aren`t you supposed to be running this bike in at the moment Girth ? Maybe it needs a few more miles to make things a bit smoother
Are you thinking of Amplimator (think thats his name) i know i was.
i clucthless shifted on the 125 i did my test on a couple of times as i thought aint my bike, and it can also be blamed on prev learners :D never really felt comfy doing it so i always use the clutch
xXBADGERXx
14-05-09, 10:18 PM
Are you thinking of Amplimator (think thats his name) i know i was.
Girth bought one recently as well , about a month ago ?
Ah i see i just looked at the avatar and not the user heh :)
Girth bought one recently as well , about a month ago ?
3 week ago today and 1,800 miles later and a huge grin :smt040
joshmac
14-05-09, 10:40 PM
3 week ago today and 1,800 miles later and a huge grin :smt040
That grin was caused by Wideboy last ni.....
Oh wrong forum
ThEGr33k
14-05-09, 11:26 PM
Do it almost all the time... never really had too many issues. Found the odd spare neutral, but maybe 2-3 times in 15,000 miles. :)
If I ever get a PC3 on ill get a quick shifter maybe :D
yorkie_chris
14-05-09, 11:32 PM
Bah.
Dynojet do not have a monopoly on quickshifters. You can fit them to a carbed bike no problem.
ThEGr33k
15-05-09, 12:35 AM
Bah.
Dynojet do not have a monopoly on quickshifters. You can fit them to a carbed bike no problem.
What exactly do they do? Cut fuel to let it shift or what? :confused:
yorkie_chris
15-05-09, 12:40 AM
No, they interrupt the spark for a set period of time to simulate chopping the throttle.
If they did this by cutting fuel flow there would still be enough fuel "kicking about" to burn and interrupt the shift, or enough to cause a very lean mixture and start detonation off...
ThEGr33k
15-05-09, 12:43 AM
No, they interrupt the spark for a set period of time to simulate chopping the throttle.
If they did this by cutting fuel flow there would still be enough fuel "kicking about" to burn and interrupt the shift, or enough to cause a very lean mixture and start detonation off...
Aye, I wasnt sure the PC had the power to cut the spark... But I guess I learn :D
So you have to get the delay all sorted then I guess. How does the PC3 know you have clicked up, some sort of switch need adding?
lukemillar
15-05-09, 06:05 AM
Aye, I wasnt sure the PC had the power to cut the spark... But I guess I learn :D
So you have to get the delay all sorted then I guess. How does the PC3 know you have clicked up, some sort of switch need adding?
You need to add a switch to the shifter-rod.
Quickshifters are in two parts - the shift switch and a control box. People always quote Power Commander though because some models have the capabilty to add a quickshifter therefore killing the fuel map/quick shift bird with one stone!
lukemillar
15-05-09, 06:08 AM
Aye, I wasnt sure the PC had the power to cut the spark... But I guess I learn :D
So you have to get the delay all sorted then I guess. How does the PC3 know you have clicked up, some sort of switch need adding?
You need to add a switch to the shifter-rod.
Quickshifters are in two parts - the shift switch and a control box. People always mention Power Commander though because some models have the capabilty to add a quickshifter therefore killing the fuel map/quick shift bird with one stone!
lukemillar
15-05-09, 06:24 AM
You need to add a switch to the shifter-rod.
Quickshifters are in two parts - the shift switch and a control box. People always quote Power Commander though because some models have the capabilty to add a quickshifter therefore killing the fuel map/quick shift bird with one stone!
lukemillar
15-05-09, 07:25 AM
Aye, I wasnt sure the PC had the power to cut the spark... But I guess I learn :D
So you have to get the delay all sorted then I guess. How does the PC3 know you have clicked up, some sort of switch need adding?
You need to add a switch to the shifter-rod.
Quickshifters are in two parts - the shift switch and a control box. People always quote Power Commander though because some models have the capabilty to add a quickshifter therefore killing the fuel map/quick shift bird with one stone!
ThEGr33k
15-05-09, 07:54 AM
Bit of an echo in here, here, HERE, HERE!? Looks like there is some Forum issues, took me 5 mins to post in pennine massive.
Cheers though Luke. :D
gettin2dizzy
15-05-09, 11:52 AM
I don't do it much with my bike, as it needs a hefty boot!
Sid Squid
16-05-09, 07:50 AM
Did do Sid. I've had plenty dog boxes in bits for both bikes and cars. They all suffer in the long term.
Indeed they do - but it's not because of clutchless changes.
A clean change is possible without the clutch, and by the same token a rubbish change is still eminently possible even when using the clutch.
Your gearbox doesn't know and doesn't care how the load is removed from it when you change gear - a smooth gearchange is a smooth gearchange, however you do it.
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