Letter in the local paper this week [Archive] - SV650.org

timwilky

16-05-09, 04:46 PM

Stu

16-05-09, 04:50 PM

These have now ended...
[/pedantic]

8-[

DarrenSV650S

16-05-09, 05:28 PM

Yeh stay away from the Isle of Wight. Bikers live there.

Best to stay safe in south Wales - where no bikes are allowed

Spiderman

16-05-09, 05:49 PM

From the way I read his rant, he is annoyed that his wife pulled onto a road and there was a bike already there and he criticises the riders observation.

I hope the rider was ok if the car/passengers were that badly hurt, but I love the fact he can hear how fast bikes go

Thats how i read it too. he SMIDSYs a biker and tries to say it was the bikers fault. Idiot.

BUT the glaring mistake is obvious, you nutters..... Cowes Shop Boom Too Good To Last...they're so wrong and we all know it, right? Cowes just gets better and better. Josh journos can be so dim at times ;)

Frank

16-05-09, 05:51 PM

bus --islanders interface?

Stu

16-05-09, 05:53 PM

Well I think the Tourist Bus that they're going to Change so that it Hits the Islanders :shock: should be moved to the front page! :shock:

Frank

16-05-09, 05:54 PM

Well I think the Tourist Bus that they're going to Change so that it Hits the Islanders :shock: should be moved to the front page! :shock:
too slow matey ...;)

Stu

16-05-09, 07:02 PM

:( yup it was obviously crafting the superior reply that took the time :razz:

Or my brain's too slow :lol:

theshed

16-05-09, 07:48 PM

"we could regually hear bikers scream past at speeds in excess of 80 mph"
Who needs speed cameras when you have ears that can detect your speed ?
best be aware of this new technology lads LOL

BigFootIsBlurry

17-05-09, 09:08 PM

What a tool. If he could hear them doing 80 surely he could hear the one coming down the road?

natcar

17-05-09, 09:49 PM

Dont know the details but sounds like somebody didnt make proper observations or failed to see a bike at speed- just hope the biker or anybody else wasn't seriously injured. Police have said its their fault- yes something should be done as he requested- hopefully a prosecution against those responsible- in this case the driver if they were driving without due care/etc.

monkey

18-05-09, 02:53 AM

Oh look! You can contact the paper (http://www.iwcp.co.uk/news/letters/exocet-alley-bikers-have-driven-us-from-island-26173.aspx)with responses.

What a plank. I can't believe the newspaper actually printed that!

FlyinCustard

18-05-09, 06:55 AM

So let me see..... there are signs aimed at bikers warning of xs speed all around, he can hear them razzing around in xs of 80mph!!! And he thinks that there's too many "hooligan bikers" ruining the place.... so with all this attention on us bikers would you not think they would make a special effort to stay safe and look out for bikers?

BigFootIsBlurry

18-05-09, 07:37 AM

the_lone_wolf

18-05-09, 07:59 AM

I've written a response, Lone Wolf, will you keep us posted if its printed?

Sure thing, I usually flick through the paper when it comes out on Friday to see what the Island has it's pants in a twist over this week

I would ask that if people want to respond please do, but keep it clean and on topic, we actually get on very well with the police down here and the last thing we need is some dotty doris getting a bee in their bonnet about bikes and demanding something be done at the next parish council meeting, it's a small Island...;)

Ceri JC

18-05-09, 09:16 AM

Great, so through your negligent driving you nearly kill some poor sod not only do you not accept liability, thereby causing the whole thing to drag out for months before he gets his insurance payout, you have the audacity to slag him and other motorcyclists off in the local rag too?

Still, at least the end result was a good one:
"I used to really enjoy my visits to the island, this has now ended because my wife is too afraid to travel on the roads there."
One less dupper on the roads... ;)

ophic

18-05-09, 09:35 AM

I agree that the article is easy to read the way people here are. But none of us were there and most of us don't know the road that the accident occurred on. Even the police will be allocating fault according to a stringent set of "standard" rules and with the benefit of hindsight.

We've all pulled out of blind junctions - there's nowt you can do. Even going very slowly would sometimes cause an accident whereas to just boot it would have avoided it. I've been in situations where if a biker had come round a blind corner at the speed limit in the wet, its doubtful that he'd be able to stop in time. Now imagine I'm driving a van or lorry or campervan or car towing a caravan - same situation but 10 times worse.

I'm not saying the writers of this letter weren't at fault, but we can't be sure. If we saw the road in question we might be a little more sympathetic.

captainsmelly

18-05-09, 04:03 PM

http://i488.photobucket.com/albums/rr243/ktm_wolf/misc/retard.jpg

Ahem.

PR1CK

RatchetJob

18-05-09, 04:19 PM

I'm not saying the writers of this letter weren't at fault, but we can't be sure. If we saw the road in question we might be a little more sympathetic.

From the details in the article it was most likely this junction (Church Place turning right onto Military road) -> Google Maps (http://local.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=military+road,+isle+of+wight&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=19.983648,57.128906&ie=UTF8&ll=50.59549,-1.318284&spn=0.002612,0.006974&t=h&z=18)

Stu

18-05-09, 08:40 PM

From the details in the article it was most likely this junction (Church Place turning right onto Military road) -> Google Maps (http://local.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=military+road,+isle+of+wight&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=19.983648,57.128906&ie=UTF8&ll=50.59549,-1.318284&spn=0.002612,0.006974&t=h&z=18)
Which looks like 200 meters of visibilty.
Say it takes 10 seconds to pull out of the junction.
20m per sec is 45 mph.
So if the bike was doing in excess of 80 ??? which the Police might not be able to prove, did the car driver have any chance of pulling out without a collision :smt102

the_lone_wolf

18-05-09, 08:49 PM

you couldn't do 80mph past that junction, not even close

it's far more likely to be the junction with southdown to the north west, the visibility splays would require a metre or so of car to enter the carriageway on military road before you could see properly but you can instantly see for a long distance once there, if you pull out slowly then you can see oncoming traffic easily and if you managed to pull out in front of someone there you weren't looking properly...

Stu

18-05-09, 08:58 PM

I stand corrected :D
Has everyone heard of that the latest BMW 7 series has side facing cameras at the very front of the car so that you can see out of junctions without edging out too far? :)

Bluewolf

18-05-09, 08:59 PM

the_lone_wolf

18-05-09, 09:05 PM

More importantly (although not as far as Mister Evans is concerned apparently :rolleyes: ) does anyone know if the biker was okay? If they've smashed into the car hard enough to injure two passengers I'd think he might have been in pretty poor shape..? :(

you would think so but that sort of thing would have got around the bike community here pretty fast if he was seriously hurt, it would also likely have been in the local rag too

yorkie_chris

18-05-09, 09:10 PM

Dunno, I knew a guy who parked a GSX in the side of a car hard enough to break the drivers jaw and shoulder, he was ejected over the roof and suffered from a broken toe and a case of being seriously pi$$ed off. Instant justice!

Bluewolf

18-05-09, 09:35 PM

Dunno, I knew a guy who parked a GSX in the side of a car hard enough to break the drivers jaw and shoulder

Honestly officer, that's exactly how the myopic, smidsy twonk got that broken jaw. I never touched him... ;) :lol:

the_lone_wolf

22-05-09, 10:37 AM

Response in this week's paper...

http://i488.photobucket.com/albums/rr243/ktm_wolf/misc/retard2.jpg?t=1242988643

ophic

22-05-09, 10:46 AM

the_lone_wolf

22-05-09, 10:50 AM

35mph? sorry slightly skeptical there. Perhaps he means 35mph at the moment he actually impacted with the car.

You should be able to stop in the distance that you can see.

Nevertheless, I feel for the guy - can't be nice, and it looks like the insurance etc has taken his side.
if i could drive i'd take a photo, but there's a blind crest about 30m to the west of that corner, visibility is seriously reduced...

plus you wouldn't expect to find a car sideways across the road there

crucify the guy if you want, but as someone who knows the road i can say that that account doesn't sound bad at all...

Luckypants

22-05-09, 10:56 AM

Not the best written letter (or maybe edited by the paper) but it does make it clear that it was the car driver's fault. Plus the original letter stated that the police had told the driver of the car it was her fault.

I'm sure the good people of the IoW will make the right conclusion.

ophic

22-05-09, 11:02 AM

crucify the guy if you want
not my intention at all - just trying to remain impartial.

I know the stopping in distance you can see thing I quoted is virtually impossible to stick to 100% of the time.

Spiderman

22-05-09, 12:05 PM

Ouch a broken shoulder cant be nice. Glad the biker wrote in and got his point about "lunatics" accross at least.

the_lone_wolf

22-05-09, 12:06 PM

not my intention at all - just trying to remain impartial.

no worries, just wanted to clarify that the corner looks very different on the ground...:cool:

jimmy__riddle

22-05-09, 12:06 PM

yeah, good they printed it and got his side across

Mogs

22-05-09, 12:24 PM

I'm sure the Taffia can add Cefnpennar to the next ride out.

Daimo

22-05-09, 01:35 PM

My bike sounds the same at 11,000rpm whether im in 1st or 6th....

Does that mean im doing 30mph or 130mph??

I wish I had his skill with hearing and his wife eyesight. Man could you imagine the superpowers....... :salut:

Stu

22-05-09, 01:49 PM

yeah, good they printed it and got his side across
Unfortunate that it comes across like he was travelling at a speed that he couldn't stop in the distance he could see to be clear :( (I'm sure that's just his poor letter writing skills)
My bike sounds the same at 11,000rpm whether im in 1st or 6th....

Does that mean im doing 30mph or 130mph??

I wish I had his skill with hearing and his wife eyesight. Man could you imagine the superpowers....... :salut:

But you can tell the location of your bike by the sound of it. I'm sure I could have a good go at guessing whether the location was changing at 30 or 130mph.

ophic

22-05-09, 01:54 PM

My bike sounds the same at 11,000rpm whether im in 1st or 6th....
it shouldn't. 11krpm in 1st, unless you want to bounce it off the rev limiter, the throttle won't be fully open. In 6th, it will. Which makes it sound different.

Ceri JC

22-05-09, 02:01 PM

Unfortunate that it comes across like he was travelling at a speed that he couldn't stop in the distance he could see to be clear :( (I'm sure that's just his poor letter writing skills)

+1. I'm actually more inclined to side with the car driver than I was before, after reading the biker's letter. That said, it also sounds like the car driver was being a bit of a 'tard, trying to do a 3-point turn on a country lane near a bend or something similar.

Respect to the paper for printing his side of the story.

Holdup

22-05-09, 02:01 PM

The biker clipped the rear quarter of the car and injured the stupid old bat driving the car and her granddaughter :confused:

Some how i dont think so stupid old man has nothing better to do other than exagerate things

Owenski

22-05-09, 02:07 PM

TLW whats the limit on military road?

the_lone_wolf

22-05-09, 02:12 PM

TLW whats the limit on military road?

National limit, 60mph, but the corner described would be a 40-50mph bend on any normal ride

Owenski

22-05-09, 02:15 PM

So this bloke managed to knock his speed down by a good 15mph maybe more before clattering her. Is the location at a Junction or is it suspected that she was doing a turn in the road?

the_lone_wolf

22-05-09, 02:18 PM

So this bloke managed to knock his speed down by a good 15mph maybe more before clattering her. Is the location at a Junction or is it suspected that she was doing a turn in the road?
as he ended up in a field it's almost certainly the corner with a farmer's field entrance, chances are the car was performing a U-Turn on a NSL corner with poor visibility to the direction the bike was coming from

ophic

22-05-09, 02:23 PM

as he ended up in a field it's almost certainly the corner with a farmer's field entrance, chances are the car was performing a U-Turn on a NSL corner with poor visibility to the direction the bike was coming from
see, this is what worries me - a tractor could be quite legitimately pulling out from the field very slowly, or there could be mud in the road - any of which would have ended up the same. So to me it still sounds like he was going a bit fast for the circumstances. Not saying i wouldn't make the same mistake, just discussing it from a legal point of view.

Ceri JC

22-05-09, 02:30 PM

see, this is what worries me - a tractor could be quite legitimately pulling out from the field very slowly, or there could be mud in the road - any of which would have ended up the same. So to me it still sounds like he was going a bit fast for the circumstances. Not saying i wouldn't make the same mistake, just discussing it from a legal point of view.

Indeed. The fact that the car driver may have been doing something stupid (which by the sounds of it, they were and someone witnessed it, hence the police finding in the biker's favour), doesn't change that there could have been something there that wasn't doing anything wrong. In that scenario the biker's actions/accident would have been the same, but he'd be found to be at fault, instead of the other party.

Still I can't criticise. 2 weeks back I drove over an 8 foot long bit of 2x4" at 60mph on the way to work. Inconsiderate driving by another road user was a contributing factor (not to mention the lorry/truck that shed its load in the first place), but it was still definately predominantly my fault. :rolleyes:

Owenski

22-05-09, 02:32 PM

100% not the bikers fault, how can you ride ever, anywhere! If your expected to anticipate that kind of stupidity?
Totally tradgic for the car drivers I dont disagree. but from what I understand from the location they were doing it, their bloody lucky it was a bike and not a car or van. Either could have been going fast and both would have destroyed the little nissan side on.
Which is all the more reason Im sickened by this old bloke writing in, he's damn lucky his misses isnt done with death by dangerous driving. Its only because the rider reacted that a much worse accident was avoided.

Now this is a big assumtion I know but I bet Im not far from the truth. This is an elderly gentleman who obviously has a old fashoned manor. I think he can no longer drive due to his age/condition and so his misses has to drive. From the fuddy duddy nature of his letter he'll be a total passenger seat pilot directing his misses left and right. After missing the turing he's told her to just spin the car around and go back, a physcial manouvur in a lot of cars especially when you concider she is elderly too. So the old dear will have been struggling away and then the biker has come round a corner and you cant blame him for been suprised... see above.

Biker = Unfortunate but very Lucky
Old Bloke = Bored, Proud, Old and Trying to get someone to tell him is not his fault.
Old woman = Victim IMO

Luckypants

22-05-09, 02:33 PM

Not saying i wouldn't make the same mistake, just discussing it from a legal point of view.Are you?

The attending policeman stated it was the car driver's fault (see first letter) and witnesses said it was car driver's fault (see second letter). Legal point of view would say it is the car driver's fault and biker not to blame! None of us were there so it is unfair to criticise the biker.

On a general point of being able to stop in the distance we can see to be clear, well I had a similar instance while leading the recent NWR5 ride. I came round a bend to find a Vectra stopped across the road about 40m ahead, I stopped in time but I cannot claim this was because I had consciously ridden at a speed that meant I could stop. We all take corners expecting the exit to be clear.

the_lone_wolf

22-05-09, 02:35 PM

see, this is what worries me - a tractor could be quite legitimately pulling out from the field very slowly, or there could be mud in the road - any of which would have ended up the same. So to me it still sounds like he was going a bit fast for the circumstances. Not saying i wouldn't make the same mistake, just discussing it from a legal point of view.

and yet the fact remains that you don't know the road, and weren't there, i know the road but wasn't there

the police know the road, and were there, it's a widely known regular haunt for bikers doing silly speeds and is rarely unpoliced on a sunny weekend, even moreso since friends of mine lost their son on that road - they'll punish bikers heavily for taking the **** on it, hence why i don't bother using it - yet they attributed no blame to the rider for the accident...

i'm certain that any of the orgers i've ridden with were taking the same corner they'd be going faster than this rider claims he was, and simply parroting the "can't stop in the distance you can see......" line smacks of hypocrisy on a massive level...;)

ophic

22-05-09, 02:40 PM

We all take corners expecting the exit to be clear.
Agreed, but there's no legal defence for this.

The witnesses' opinions shouldn't be taken into account, just their account of what happened. The police officer... well he probably just listened to the witnesses. However this could be challenged in a court of law, although i doubt it would get that far taking into consideration the sums involved and the relatively light injuries.

But, I'll hold my hand up, I wasn't there, just trying to remain impartial. If I had witnessed it, my opinion could be totally different. But i do know better than to side with the biker just because he's a biker.

You're right Leedsmatt, that is one big assumption! ;)

Owenski

22-05-09, 02:45 PM

I know lol, but I base it on my nan and granpa when I used to be passenger in their car I can remember he wasnt able to drive anymore and would direct all the time. My Nan would follow blindly, if she knew it was left but he said right she'd go right. Sounds dumb I know but its the old fashioned nature and respect that they used to show. Manpower! and all that lol. Honestly though I bet Im not far from the truth, it seems odd that an old bloke wouldnt be driving if he could.

Stu

22-05-09, 02:46 PM

100% not the bikers fault, how can you ride ever, anywhere! If your expected to anticipate that kind of stupidity?

Wow!

Good luck with that :roll:

ophic

22-05-09, 02:50 PM

i'm certain that any of the orgers i've ridden with were taking the same corner they'd be going faster than this rider claims he was, and simply parroting the "can't stop in the distance you can see......" line smacks of hypocrisy on a massive level...;)
Do you think the speed claims are honest? Genuine question.
I didn't think i was being hypocritical. If i went round a corner too fast to stop and something was stationary on the far side, i wouldn't expect to be found faultless. Can't really see the hypocrisy here.

the_lone_wolf

22-05-09, 03:03 PM

Can't really see the hypocrisy here.

The hypocrisy is that unless you ride extremely slowly, you will regularly ride beyond the limit of how far ahead you can see... Saying "oh but I'd own up and take the blame if something happens" is a pretty weak excuse

As for the rider's speed, knowing the corner I've no reason to doubt it

Luckypants

22-05-09, 03:11 PM

Agreed, but there's no legal defence for this.

Quite possibly true, I'm not an expert on the law so cannot say one way or the other. BUT it is reasonable to expect that other drivers will not perform manoeuvres in dangerous places, like on a bend. That said, self preservation dictates that you should expect the unexpected.

IMO if a dangerous manoeuvre results in a crash, it is the fault of the person driving dangerously / without due care. In reality the Advanced driver / safety crowd argue that all collisions are avoidable by driving / riding to the view you have ahead (amongst other things) and this is a view I subscribe to, just not the the exclusion of all other factors.

Kilted Ginger

22-05-09, 03:25 PM

Re, riding within your stopping distance.
Hands up we all exceed this (some more than others) but it is well recognised to be the correct and safe way to drive / ride.
Any bikesafe course or advanced riding school will say it. It is teh safets way to ride, not by any means the fastest or commonest but safest.

Unfortunately we had an incident a couple of years ago with someone from the ecosse section going round a country road bend (nsl) near or at the nsl. The road was flanked by high hedges so you can only see ahead, not around corners. He went round this bend and unfortunately came to a sudden stop into the rear of a stationary combine blocking the entire road. Luckily he survived, but was a real mess and is still healing and has not been on a bike since. Would any of us have ridden the bend differently, I dont know, we wern't there.

I am not preaching to ride within stopping distances (that is down to each individual) just that be aware you only have to be unlucky once.

Regarding this instance, then could the rider have reasonably expected a car to be there? Probably not.
Could he have avoided it if he had been riding within his stopping distance? Probably Yes.
Wheather the fault was found to lie with the car driver, was the bike destroyed and the biker hurt? Definately yes.

We will always come off worse. As I've said before you only have to be unlucky once.
Ride safe.

Ceri JC

22-05-09, 03:41 PM

The hypocrisy is that unless you ride extremely slowly, you will regularly ride beyond the limit of how far ahead you can see... Saying "oh but I'd own up and take the blame if something happens" is a pretty weak excuse

As for the rider's speed, knowing the corner I've no reason to doubt it

Not sure I agree; I can't find the original thread, but I posted on here about a ride where I was very nearly doing twice the posted limit whilst making a point of being able to stop in the distance I could see to be clear. I went from 110 to 0 very quickly indeed and stopped with 20M to spare when I rounded a bend and found a car stopped in the road in my lane. This was round a bend on a single lane country road...
Also, see this thread: http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=63265

Not saying I'm a saint who rides like this all the time (see my previous post in this thread ;)), but the idea that riding so you can stop in the distance you can see to be clear, automatically means you'll be riding slowly, no matter what the road is like, simply isn't true IMO. I think even when you're prepared to or in a situation when it's safer to do so than not (in fog, heavy traffic, etc.), it's worth being aware of and thinking, "how fast am I prepared to crash?" I was talking about this with one very experienced bike and his POV was that he worked it on riding so that he could brake down to <30mph before a crash.